Bouncing for Archival or Mixers

[eurotheater]

I had a question after watching Shane Wilson's Guide to Mixing DVD. It's not as comprehensive and MILAR by the way. I found it worth getting. The wackiest DVD I ever got was David Gibson's Art of Mixing. I don't recommend it unless you've never seen a fader before.

Anywho, the engineers' commentary on the Shane Wilson DVD brought up a question that never occurred to me. The engineers were talking about how they receive their tracks from bands. They understandably prefer to receive each track as one long audio region, all tracks starting at the same point.

They said bands should do it anyways for archival because you never know if future versions of the DAW will be able to open the session.

It got me thinking about archiving my mixes. I discovered that there’s no single command in Logic that will do this. I can export OMF for PT, or I can export AAF. I found that it retains track placement even though I never consolidated the individual tracks into one long region with the same starting point.

It’s not a big problem for me to archive my tracks if I’m doing the mixing myself in the box. But if I ever wanted to source out the mixing I’d have to bounce each track individually. It would take about 30 hours to bounce all the instruments for an entire album.

Does Pro Tools have a single command that can do this? In case I decide to get Pro Tools, not that I don’t love Logic. I'm using Logic 7 now, I'm upgrading after the album is finished next month. Does anybody know if Logic 8 added this feature?

Also, for archiving my own Logic sessions, do you think I’ll be able to open and resave all my songs in each new Logic version, for then next 15 years? In case I ever decide to go back and remix? assuming they're not bought out someday.

I’m trying to convince myself that I don’t need to spend a full week archiving. In the past I've had to purchase old gear to get access to old recordings. I don't want that to happen again. :Sad:

Thanks.

[weedywet]

why would it take 30 hours?

are you talking about needing to record midi instruments as audio??

otherwise, why so long?

In ProTools I would select the entire song across all tracks in one swipe, and then chose Consolidate Region

it would then consolidate each track as a single file.

I then delete all alternative playlists and unused audio files (removing but not deleting them from the session) and then do a Save Copy In of the session into another folder.

that consolidated, paired down session can be archived or sent off to someone else.

[David Aurora]

yeah dude, wtf? i dont have logic open right now so apologies if i get the name of a command wrong or something, but its just like you would in any other daw. just a different name (for example in PT as weedy said you hit consolidate, whereas in logic its "merge").

from memory you just select all the audio, and merge regions per tracks. obviously virtual instruments will need the audio physically recorded, but thats the same on any system

[otek]

You don't even have to merge it.

Just go to File > Export > All Tracks As Audio Files... A dialog will come up which allows you to select/create a target forlder and specify file format.

Inserted plugins will be included unless bypassed; automation,
buses and auxes will not. Files will be rendered from zero regardless of content.

Chances are you won't even have time to go grab a cup of coffee before it's done. :D



otek

[otek]

If on the other hand you want to save the Logic Project as is, but pare it down to the least possible size, this is how I do it (note that I still use Logic 7.2, so in order to not talk out of my ass I am using the 7.2 nomenclature. All of it should still be doable in Logic 8).

It should be noted I personally only concern myself with using the original tracks in their mix arrangement. I don't preserve the plugins other than keep them in the backup project.


1) Save the project under a different name, for example add the suffix "Backup" and/or a date, or whatever way you choose to distinguish it. Save it in a folder on your backup drive. Unfreeze any frozen tracks.

2) Go into the audio files folder (bin) and hit ctrl+U. This will select all tracks present in the folder but not used in the arrangement window. Hit the delete (backspace) key. This will remove the unused files from the audio folder/bin, but not delete them from the disk.

3) Hit ctrl+A to select all files in the folder, then ctrl+C to copy them to a new location. You get a dialog where you can specify the target folder. When you are asked if you want to change the file references to the new location, select "yes".

4) Now make sure all files are still selected, then hit ctrl+O. This will start the only destructive part of the process, which should be fine since you just copied all the files. This process is called Optimization, and basically trims off any part of the audio files you aren't using in the arrange window. It leaves a preset amount to either side of the used regions, the default is 1000 milliseconds.

5) The last step (which isn't entirely necessary but I do it anyway) is to delete the undo history and fade files for the backup. You can also go into the backup folder and throw away the .bak and freeze folders.


Now, since I haven't deleted anything, I can go back to the original mix project and do other backups from earlier versions of the project if needed, or whatever. Let's say for example I did a bounce of 50-something backing vocal tracks down to three stereo stems earlier in the project. I would then have saved a copy of the project just before the bounce and re-import of the tracks. I can go into this project, delete anything I don't need (such as all the instrument tracks which I've already backed up), and then export or backup just the backing vocal tracks to a new location in my backup folder.



otek

[Ashermusic]

You don't even have to merge it.

Just go to File > Export > All Tracks As Audio Files... A dialog will come up which allows you to select/create a target forlder and specify file format.

Inserted plugins will be included unless bypassed; automation,
buses and auxes will not. Files will be rendered from zero regardless of content.

Chances are you won't even have time to go grab a cup of coffee before it's done. :D



otek

Otek, that is not quite correct. All automation will be included except volume and pan, and all plug-ins except those that require real time bouncing, like delays, will be included.

[otek]

Otek, that is not quite correct. All automation will be included except volume and pan

No, that's not quite correct. :Wink:

Plugin automation will be included, but volume, pan, mute, solo, send, i.e. track related automation, will not.

and all plug-ins except those that require real time bouncing, like delays, will be included.

Sorry, not correct either, unless they changed this in Logic 8. Plugins inserted on the bounced track are included, plugins on buses and auxes are not. This is regardless of plugin type.

One could say that the Export function works like a pre-fader/mute/pan channel output.



otek

[Ashermusic]

No, that's not quite correct. :Wink:

Plugin automation will be included, but volume, pan, mute, solo, send, i.e. track related automation, will not.



Sorry, not correct either, unless they changed this in Logic 8. Plugins inserted on the bounced track are included, plugins on buses and auxes are not. This is regardless of plugin type.

One could say that the Export function works like a pre-fader/mute/pan channel output.



otek

Track soloing/muting also must occur in real time obviously.

My understanding is that we were in fact discussing track archiving. Buses and aux insetred FX are not part of the track, they are part of the mix.

[otek]

My understanding is that we were in fact discussing track archiving. Buses and aux insetred FX are not part of the track, they are part of the mix.

At this point you and I were simply discussing what happens when one exports tracks, what is included and what is not included. On that note, thanks for alerting me to my mistake.


otek

[Ashermusic]

At this point you and I were simply discussing what happens when one exports tracks, what is included and what is not included. On that note, thanks for alerting me to my mistake.


otek

OK, Grasshopper, we have achieved understanding :)

Anyway,it is a good solution, except for multi-output software instrument tracks.

[otek]

The closest one would get to preserving the mix components exactly as-is would be to print stereo stems of each individual track, automation and FX in place.

This would be very time-consuming, not to mention any 2-bus processing would still be out the window since you could never print individual stems with it on.

Exporting or backing up as described above is close enough IMHO.


otek

[Ashermusic]

The closest one would get to preserving the mix components exactly as-is would be to print stereo stems of each individual track, automation and FX in place.

This would be very time-consuming, not to mention any 2-bus processing would still be out the window since you could never print individual stems with it on.

Exporting or backing up as described above is close enough IMHO.


otek

Fortunately, this IS one that is way easier in LP 8, as you can i.e. route a software instrument track to a bus and then assign that bus as the input on an audio track.

[eurotheater]

Thanks everybody for helping me with this. I'm still working this out in my head.

I get it, I'll always need to bounce midi instrument tracks, that makes sense to me, but as far as audio tracks go...

I'm glad to know this is easy to do in PT. As far as Logic 7.2.3, I didn't know about the
"merge" command. I'm still messing with that. I also learned about the glue tool. But it doesn't help if my regions are occasionally stacked like a deck of cards, (looking forward to Logic 8). I don't always know if there is a hidden region.

When I did...
File > Export > All Tracks As Audio Files...
It retained all the individual regions within the tracks.

I'm beginning to wonder how essential it is to have all tracks with the same start-point because all of my tests retain track placement info. (export OMF-no automation data, AAF retained volume data).

Still experimenting with all the ideas.

Thanks!

[Skimmer Harris]

This thread got me thinking.

What if I did a mix, ITB completely and I was very happy with it. Then the record company wanted the session to send it out to other people to have 'a go at a mix'. With the 100% recall ability of ITB mixes these days, surely I shoudn't include my session with plugins and automation on the drive that I send back to them? If I did, it would be just like doing a mix in a 'proper' studio leaving the desk and all outboard set up, walking out of the room and letting any Tom Dick or Harry come in, make a few tweaks and call it 'their mix' :icon_eek:

So what do you guys do in this situation? Just send back the session as you received it? Cos I aint gonna let people tweak the vocal a bit and let them take credit for all my hard work....

[otek]

Fortunately, this IS one that is way easier in LP 8, as you can i.e. route a software instrument track to a bus and then assign that bus as the input on an audio track.

True, however that still wouldn't solve the 2-bus problem.

The point I am trying to make is, you would want the coloration of the 2-bus processing, but that coloration is dependent on the attributes of the track currently being bounced. A 2-bus compressor, for example, would react very differently to individual tracks being played through it, than it would to the whole mix. Consequently, a bunch of tracks bounced in that fashion and then summed would not sound the same as the original mix summed.

It's a bit of a catch-22.

I get it, I'll always need to bounce midi instrument tracks, that makes sense to me

Actually, you only have to do it if they're multi-output instruments. Regular mono and stereo ones will export just fine, like audio.

As far as Logic 7.2.3, I didn't know about the "merge" command. I'm still messing with that.

Again, you don't have to use the merge command if you export. Overlapping regions will, however, always cause the "later" region to cancel the "earlier" one (merging and exporting will handle that part the same way). Just take care to crossfade between them, you can also use the "Remove Overlaps" command, which I believe is still in the "Regions" menu.

When I did... File > Export > All Tracks As Audio Files... It retained all the individual regions within the tracks.

It will not, but you need to reimport the tracks you've exported from the location you saved them to - they won't automatically reimport and replace themselves.

I'm beginning to wonder how essential it is to have all tracks with the same start-point

It's a precaution and a time-saver. You don't know which system this stuff will be re-opened on down the line. And it's faster to organize a new session with all tracks starting at the same point.

So what do you guys do in this situation? Just send back the session as you received it?

Pretty much. I wouldn't release my mix session unless I was under contractual obligation to do so.



otek

[Ashermusic]

True, however that still wouldn't solve the 2-bus problem.

The point I am trying to make is, you would want the coloration of the 2-bus processing, but that coloration is dependent on the attributes of the track currently being bounced. A 2-bus compressor, for example, would react very differently to individual tracks being played through it, than it would to the whole mix. Consequently, a bunch of tracks bounced in that fashion and then summed would not sound the same as the original mix summed.

It's a bit of a catch-22.


otek

Of course, understood, but generally the purpose of opening up an archived project's audio files is to remix, so you might well not want that anyway, right?

[otek]

Of course, understood, but generally the purpose of opening up an archived project's audio files is to remix, so you might well not want that anyway, right?

I personally wouldn't. Like I said before,

It should be noted I personally only concern myself with using the original tracks in their mix arrangement. I don't preserve the plugins other than keep them in the backup project.

There are however people who archive with the possibility in mind to make near-perfect recalls of the original mix. That said, the 2-bus problem as described doesn't really have any practical solution, so there's no use worrying about it.



otek

[weedywet]

This thread got me thinking.

What if I did a mix, ITB completely and I was very happy with it. Then the record company wanted the session to send it out to other people to have 'a go at a mix'. With the 100% recall ability of ITB mixes these days, surely I shoudn't include my session with plugins and automation on the drive that I send back to them? If I did, it would be just like doing a mix in a 'proper' studio leaving the desk and all outboard set up, walking out of the room and letting any Tom Dick or Harry come in, make a few tweaks and call it 'their mix' :icon_eek:

So what do you guys do in this situation? Just send back the session as you received it? Cos I aint gonna let people tweak the vocal a bit and let them take credit for all my hard work....


I brought up this very topic at the MM Radio Show recording

and what *I* do is what i describe above

they get a 'multi-track' that includes all the USED audio tracks as single consolidated tracks. no alt takes or other choices, no plug ins, no sub mixing.
Just as though it was a 24 tk tape.
The audio on tracks.

[eurotheater]

I just pre-ordered Dye’s RILAR. (not MILAR) Also recently ordered a couple of instructional dvd’s through Waves at sound.org.

My mind is expanding, but it doesn’t feel good!

Okay, I think that I understand now. (I hope.) This is what I’d recommend someone do if they’re in my shoes (Logic 7.2.3) I’ve only done this once, plus a test to repeat the results.

If you’re preparing raw tracks for a mixer or to archive songs…this is how I consolidate my regions and get them to share the same starting point.

1. Bypass plugs, unless it’s part of the instrument sound, (guitar delays, amps…) Turn off all plugs that fall under “mixing”.

I didn’t bypass the plugs for the test and now that I see the processed wave forms it highlights how smashed my bass track is, and how clipped my snare is. Wow. Glad I caught that.

2. Unfreeze all tracks.

3. File/Export/All Tracks As Audio Files
(you’ll create a new folder for this)

4. In a new session re-import all files from that folder.
From the audio window/bin…Audio File/Add audio file.
Select the folder. Add all.
(It will copy all the files, this is probably where audio regions become consolidated files.)

5. Select all files in the arrange window/bin. Add files to arrange window.

All tracks will have same starting point and be continuous audio regions. All 3 midi tracks were converted to audio regions automatically with no special attention.

All steps can be done in 12 minutes per song on my system (best case scenario). Perfectly acceptable to me.


Only one flaw so far. My 2 backup vocal tracks were abruptly truncated simultaneously a second too early. It happed again on the second test.

Thanks ya’ll for helping me get through this…:very happy:

[eurotheater]

I forget one last thing...

How to I get the consolidated files on a DVD-R to give the mix engineer?

I guess I just export the session with consolidated audio regions as OMF?

I created an OMF file that's 1.6 GB. I take it that I should just drag that on to a DVD-R? Unless they request another format like TL or AAF. Or just export "all tracks as audio files" again maybe?

Is it that simple?

If I know that I'm going to hire a mix engineer, I'd probably do a better job on the recording. As it is, I trust myself to fix any vocal pitchy-ness. I already know where to expect to hear clicks or pops that I'll fix in the mix. And sometimes I mess with the gain between takes.

The point is that I've been reluctant to place my songs in another person's hands because I'm relying on my mixing to fix problems I should have already fixed, or performances that should have been stronger...

Sometimes I don't finalize my choice of vocal take until I hear it in the mix. Ideally I'd be there in person, esp when, as the arranger, I have strong ideas about what the musical anchor should be.

I've had friends offer to mix songs for me, and it's crazy that I don't take them up on their offer.

[weedywet]

... I'm relying on my mixing to fix problems I should have already fixed, or performances that should have been stronger...


you said it

[otek]

2. Unfreeze all tracks.

Unfreezing all the tracks is only necessary if you are doing a backup where you save a backup copy of the session itself. The reason why you do it is to get rid of the freeze files which you don't need and which only take up a lot of space. If you're just exporting this doesn't make any difference.

The reason I am saying this is I don't want you to do a bunch of shit knee-jerk. I want you to understand why you're doing it.

4. In a new session re-import all files from that folder.
From the audio window/bin…Audio File/Add audio file.
Select the folder. Add all.
(It will copy all the files, this is probably where audio regions become consolidated files.)

No. The files are directly exported as "consolidated" files. You only need to look in the destination folder to see this is true.

The reason it copies all the files is, in all probability you have pre-selected the "Copy External Files To Project Folder" checkbox when creating the project. See image below.

Go to File > Project > Settings to uncheck that, and the files will no longer be copied. I personally never use that setting, because it slows me down and creates a bunch of file copies unnecessarily when working on other systems.

All steps can be done in 12 minutes per song on my system (best case scenario). Perfectly acceptable to me.

Once you've done it a few times, you will get faster than that. :Wink:

Only one flaw so far. My 2 backup vocal tracks were abruptly truncated simultaneously a second too early. It happed again on the second test.

There may be a couple of reasons why this happened, but most likely, you set the song end marker too early (the little transparent rectangle up in the bar/beat ruler).

How to I get the consolidated files on a DVD-R to give the mix engineer?

Just put the folder containing your exported audio on a DVD and burn away, unless the mix engineer requested to have your original session. This way, he can import everything easily into his own Autoload.

The point is that I've been reluctant to place my songs in another person's hands because I'm relying on my mixing to fix problems I should have already fixed, or performances that should have been stronger...

All that should be taken care of when you hand your stuff to a mix engineer.

Really, the performance stuff should have been taken care of before you even stopped recording, but that's another matter.

Sometimes I don't finalize my choice of vocal take until I hear it in the mix.

Why?



otek

[eurotheater]

During my tests, I had de-selected and later reselected Freeze on some tracks. And I closed the session without saving and without pressing play to create the "frozen" tracks.

Later I reopened the session and exported the audio, and those tracks were understandably missing.


The whole process should get faster with Logic 8, because isn't there a command to bypass all plugs at once? Or is it only the processor intensive plugs while recording?


The backup vocals that got truncated were the shortest files of the song. Probably not an end marker error in this case. I went back to the session and those tracks sounded fine, and the 2 tracks don't end simultaneously. Weird. None of the other tracks were truncated, unless it was merely cutting off the silent spaces that existed on all the other tracks.


"All that should be taken care of when you hand your stuff to a mix engineer."

I'm new, so far been doing everything myself. Glad you're helping me challenge my amateurish bad habits. Glad I haven't been cast out of the womb yet.:Roll eyes:

This week I recorded the ringmaster, a broadway/tv star, Chuck Wagner, in my tiny train room for a demo with a prerecorded orchestral track. Not hard to make his voice sound good. I used an AT 4047 and a waves IRL verb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0DJc_4QXb8

[otek]

During my tests, I had de-selected and later reselected Freeze on some tracks. And I closed the session without saving and without pressing play to create the "frozen" tracks.

That's really an unnecessary process, as new freeze files can easily be created at a later date. All it does is create an empty "freeze files" folder within your backup folder.

The whole process should get faster with Logic 8, because isn't there a command to bypass all plugs at once?

I don't know of such a command, but really bypassing the plugins should not take long - all you have to do is hold down the option key and click on them. I can do it to an 80-track mix in a minute or two.

The backup vocals that got truncated were the shortest files of the song.

None of the other tracks were truncated, unless it was merely cutting off the silent spaces that existed on all the other tracks.

That is indeed strange.

Files should not be truncated, even if they're just blank regions. The export should go on until the end of the last region on the track.


otek

[David Aurora]

this thread got me to thinking i ought to do a bit of archiving as since i switched to logic early last year i haven't archived shit.

it must now be said- logic sucks dick for archiving multitracks. i know logic users are a whiny, defensive bunch and will now proceed to blame it on the user, the weather and the current position of venus, but i stand by my statement.

yeah, logic kicks ass over other programs for most shit, but not archiving mixes. as was mentioned, in PT it was this simple- delete any unused audio in the edit window, select all audio files and hit consolidate. boom, all files are the same length with the same start point. no processing is applied. that is all i want to do for archival of multitracks.

it shouldnt be a big deal to create new audio files with a common start and end time. and being able to do this, but with processing applied, is not a usable solution.

[otek]

logic sucks dick for archiving multitracks.

Hmmm. :Roll eyes:

i know logic users are a whiny, defensive bunch and will now proceed to blame it on the user

Hmmm. :D

in PT it was this simple- delete any unused audio in the edit window, select all audio files and hit consolidate.

If you are archiving the mix project/session, as opposed to the files, why do feel you have to consolidate the files to begin with? What does it achieve?

And even besides that.....

I suppose it wouldn't help if I told you that you can do EXACTLY the same thing with the same result in Logic?

(Provided this is your preferred method for archiving...! See end of post.)

it shouldnt be a big deal to create new audio files with a common start and end time. and being able to do this, but with processing applied, is not a usable solution.

And it isn't a big deal in Logic either.

I forget the key command in L8 but you should be able to simply highlight the regions and click with the glue tool. No processing is applied.

You would then highlight the consolidated tracks and move them to a new folder of course.

But for archiving, I really, really prefer the method I described earlier. Mainly because the backup files become a lot smaller, and you can pretty much preserve the Project as it was at the time of mixing. Once you understand it, you can back a song up very quickly.



otek

[David Aurora]

nope, sorry dude, i stand by the statement that it sucks wang in this regard. :lol:

i firmly believe files at ANY stage of production (recording/mix) should be able to be consolidated to a common start point easily. if shit hits the fan and you wind up with a corrupt session or something, or your DAW takes a swan dive and you have to move to another system youre gonna be fucked trying to piece together a project with files all over the screen. THAT is why i feel the need to consolidate, and also for ease of file management and labelling.

the glue thing does not do what im talking about, at least not from my attempts anyway. all it seems to do is join existing regions, NOT create a whole region with silence between regions (as one large file). the only solution ive found so far is to create a blank audio file at the start point, copy it to all tracks, THEN merge tracks.

i know what youre saying about your method, but man that's a lot more fucking around than it should be to do a simple task. this is my one recurring gripe with logic- for all the time saving features and customisation of how to drive it and all the other awesome shit it has, there are a bunch of things that make me stop and go "what the fuck??? why is this such a pain in the ass??!! i had digital 8 tracks 10 years ago that could do this faster!!!".

look, im staying with logic for the forseeable future cause as far as im concerned its the most badass thing out there right now. BUT.... its shit like this that kept me away from switching for years in the first place (and other users i know). i really think the team behind logic need to be trawling forums and reading shit like this, cause if you google problems like this you will see thread after thread of people coming from other daws wondering what the fuck the logic programmers were smoking when they missed basic features like this. its like the mono output thing- logic users sit around going "just assign to a stereo bus and pan it, its not a problem". which is fine for people who have always used, or only use logic. people who use other daws find it unbelievable that it cant be done in logic without fucking around. its not just a PT to logic learning curve, it seems to be jumping between logic and ANYTHING causes some serious head scratching.


so theres my logic rant for the week :lol:

again, for all the whiny logic users- yes, logic kicks ass over the other daws. that is no reason not to point out its shortcomings though in the hope that the next version of logic STAYS ahead of the game. if something sucks, it sucks, fuck making apologies for a goddamn DAW.

[otek]

i know what youre saying about your method, but man that's a lot more fucking around than it should be to do a simple task.

I disagree, because for archival and backup purposes, it creates a very space-conservative folder, and it doesn't take me more than 3-4 minutes to back up a large project using that method. I wouldn't call that "fucking around".

If you want the contiguous files, all you need to do is use the "export all tracks" command. Yes you have to turn off the plugins in order for them not to be rendered - but I choose to look at it another way: Logic gives me the option to render with plugins, if need be. And that's all it is - different tacks on a common problem. Which all DAWs have.

Yes, Logic has a slew of really dumbfuck solutions built into it (like sample editor signal flow, and don't get me started on the handling of stereo file formats), but I personally think the Export function is absolute tits*.

its like the mono output thing- logic users sit around going "just assign to a stereo bus and pan it, its not a problem".

:Confused:

You mean clicking the little double circle symbol qualifies as "fucking around"?

I've been making mono files and using mono outputs since 4.7.



otek



* That said, a global command to bypass all inserts would not be bad.

[David Aurora]

I disagree, because for archival and backup purposes, it creates a very space-conservative folder, and it doesn't take me more than 3-4 minutes to back up a large project using that method. I wouldn't call that "fucking around".

If you want the contiguous files, all you need to do is use the "export all tracks" command. Yes you have to turn off the plugins in order for them not to be rendered - but I choose to look at it another way: Logic gives me the option to render with plugins, if need be. And that's all it is - different tacks on a common problem. Which all DAWs have.

Yes, Logic has a slew of really dumbfuck solutions built into it (like sample editor signal flow, and don't get me started on the handling of stereo file formats), but I personally think the Export function is absolute tits*.



:Confused:

You mean clicking the little double circle symbol qualifies as "fucking around"?

I've been making mono files and using mono outputs since 4.7.



otek



* That said, a global command to bypass all inserts would not be bad.

dude i agree being able to export that way is a nice feature. but its a piss poor excuse for the only way to do it. by all means, have that feature, i can see where it could be useful, but it should not be in place of a dedicated feature to create contiguous files. this is 2009, and that is a VERY basic feature..... no, fuck feature, necessity, of any DAW. i hope at least plugin bypass automation is ignored if you do it this way?

and clicking the circle is something totally separate to what im talking about. say you have 24 tracks you want to send out through 24 outputs to a console. the smart way is to select output 1 for channel 1, output 2 for channel 2, etc. but no- i dont know about previous versions of logic, but i know that here in logic 8 the genious solution is to set channel 1 & 2 to outputs 1 and 2, then pan them hard left and right.... and so on. if im working on an 8 buss board or something, sure, i totally expect to work that way, no problems. but in a modern DAW, we cant just select a goddamn mono output??!!! are you kidding me???!!! :lol: :lol:

[David Aurora]

p.s. im confused by what you mean about "space saving"? to me the end result is nothing more than the contiguous files, i thought we were on the same page there?

[otek]

this is 2009, and that is a VERY basic feature..... no, fuck feature, necessity, of any DAW.

So, which other DAWs do you know that have an easier implementation of it, besides Pro Tools?

I know Cubase allows for it, but it's actually a little-known feature and has the same drawback as Logic Digital Mixdown (Glue Tool). What else?

Also, what if you wanted to export with plugins in Pro Tools, does it provide as easy a solution?

All I am trying to say is that you're painting Logic as extremely backwards in this regard, when in actual fact it isn't. Again, it's a different tack on a common problem.

in a modern DAW, we cant just select a goddamn mono output??!!! are you kidding me???!!! :lol: :lol:

I agree that since they give you the choice of making outputs mono, they should offer output assignments in mono as well, without using the pan controls.


otek

[otek]

p.s. im confused by what you mean about "space saving"? to me the end result is nothing more than the contiguous files, i thought we were on the same page there?

When you save a project and optimize the files as I described, the file size will shrink markedly compared to if you have contiguous files running the duration of the track.

In the 6+ years I have been using Logic, I have never even once had an old session open the wrong way or necessitate the use of contiguous files. Maybe I am just lucky.

I always use them, however, if I have to export/import the tracks into another session or software.


otek

[David Aurora]

So, which other DAWs do you know that have an easier implementation of it, besides Pro Tools?

I know Cubase allows for it, but it's actually a little-known feature and has the same drawback as Logic Digital Mixdown (Glue Tool). What else?

Also, what if you wanted to export with plugins in Pro Tools, does it provide as easy a solution?

All I am trying to say is that you're painting Logic as extremely backwards in this regard, when in actual fact it isn't. Again, it's a different tack on a common problem.



I agree that since they give you the choice of making outputs mono, they should offer output assignments in mono as well, without using the pan controls.


otek

first one that springs to mind is reaper which i just double checked and its dead simple. i havent used many other programs for a couple years other than PT and logic so i did some googling to make sure my memory wasnt failing me, and sure enough it looks pretty simple in most (there are a couple that look just as fucked as logic though, DP being one of them). which makes sense, i have memories of talking clients through exports a bunch of times over the years and usually there was a quick and easy way to create files with a common start point. shit, even on portastudios, i remember doing this shit on one last year i think it was, fuck, what was it.... i think some kind of boss pile of shit.

as far as the "can pro tools export with plugins easily" question, the answer is no. logic wins there. actually it seems that most programs EXCEPT pro tools can do it quite easily. although i cant remember a time in history when i ever wanted to export a whole multitrack with all plugins intact :lol:, seems useless for archiving purposes. you cant remix effectively cause youve already done your processing, so what exactly is the point? for a handful of channels with specific effects another user may not have, sure, bounce those suckers as they sound, but for backing up regular multitracks i cant imagine wanting processing applied.

but yeah dude, make no mistake, i AM painting logic as extremely backward in this regard. because i firmly believe it is. it should not be a big deal for a DAW to be able to turn a bunch of regions into one file of a user determined length. thats everyday shit when youre exchanging files between users/DAWs.

When you save a project and optimize the files as I described, the file size will shrink markedly compared to if you have contiguous files running the duration of the track.

In the 6+ years I have been using Logic, I have never even once had an old session open the wrong way or necessitate the use of contiguous files. Maybe I am just lucky.

I always use them, however, if I have to export/import the tracks into another session or software.


otek

i think i get you now, i thought we were both talking about contiguous files. absolutely, thats smaller. but utterly useless if you need to open those files elsewhere.

i think you have been lucky man, cause over the years in a variety of digital recording setups ive had the occasional corrupt session that required manually recreating a session. it doesnt happen often, but when it does, youre gonna be drinking some coffee that night if you dont have contiguous files :lol: :lol: :lol: and with hard drive space as cheap as it is now, im not gonna take that risk, however small it may be, to save a couple hundred megs or less of storage for the average multitrack

[otek]

usually there was a quick and easy way to create files with a common start point. shit, even on portastudios

Then, of course, comes the matter of getting the files OUT of the portastudio, which if you've worked with them extensively, is a different matter altogether. :lol:

Last time I had to do that was with a Tascam something or other. It ran along the lines of doing a five-button sequence with a couple of menu window changes, per-track, then transferring all files to a special, 4GB partition of the disk, also per-track. Then the actual transfer as made through USB-1 to a DAW. Evil! The whole thing took something like three days. I was getting paid of course.

On the Yammie 4416, I believe you have to burn audio files to a CD.

although i cant remember a time in history when i ever wanted to export a whole multitrack with all plugins intact :lol:

Not all, but some. Did it a couple of weeks ago. :D

In that particular case, the band wanted the bass sounds and a couple of other FX things intact, so I bypassed all EQ and compression on the bass and kept the amp sims. The FX sounds went with plugin automation (which is also retained, track automation however is not - to answer a question of yours I missed before).

The rest of the tracks went with plugins bypassed and plugin auto disabled. Of course, Logic also directly exports midi tracks as audio, which is an awesome addition I don't know that many others have.

but yeah dude, make no mistake, i AM painting logic as extremely backward in this regard. because i firmly believe it is.

Ok, so Logic is backwards in this regard, but then by the same rationale, so is Cubase, Nuendo (which have essentially the same method) and DP, which are a very large percentage of the user market aside from Pro Tools.

It's great that Reaper does it, but it has what, about .3% or less of the pro market?

i think i get you now, i thought we were both talking about contiguous files. absolutely, thats smaller. but utterly useless if you need to open those files elsewhere.

Yes, but that wasn't the question. we were talking about project backup here. Like I said before, if I need to migrate the project to another setup, I use Export. That's another two backwards minutes of turning plugins off, that I can charge for. :lol:

over the years in a variety of digital recording setups ive had the occasional corrupt session that required manually recreating a session.

In bringing up backups, I never had a problem. So maybe my method isn't so fucked after all....? :D :lol:


otek

[David Aurora]

Then, of course, comes the matter of getting the files OUT of the portastudio, which if you've worked with them extensively, is a different matter altogether. :lol:

Last time I had to do that was with a Tascam something or other. It ran along the lines of doing a five-button sequence with a couple of menu window changes, per-track, then transferring all files to a special, 4GB partition of the disk, also per-track. Then the actual transfer as made through USB-1 to a DAW. Evil! The whole thing took something like three days. I was getting paid of course.

On the Yammie 4416, I believe you have to burn audio files to a CD.



Not all, but some. Did it a couple of weeks ago. :D

In that particular case, the band wanted the bass sounds and a couple of other FX things intact, so I bypassed all EQ and compression on the bass and kept the amp sims. The FX sounds went with plugin automation (which is also retained, track automation however is not - to answer a question of yours I missed before).

The rest of the tracks went with plugins bypassed and plugin auto disabled. Of course, Logic also directly exports midi tracks as audio, which is an awesome addition I don't know that many others have.



Ok, so Logic is backwards in this regard, but then by the same rationale, so is Cubase, Nuendo (which have essentially the same method) and DP, which are a very large percentage of the user market aside from Pro Tools.

It's great that Reaper does it, but it has what, about .3% or less of the pro market?



Yes, but that wasn't the question. we were talking about project backup here. Like I said before, if I need to migrate the project to another setup, I use Export. That's another two backwards minutes of turning plugins off, that I can charge for. :lol:



In bringing up backups, I never had a problem. So maybe my method isn't so fucked after all....? :D :lol:


otek

:lol: :lol: haha yeah i hear you on the actual data shuffling between those bastards and a computer.

dude i think in the grand scheme of things weve just been comparing apples to oranges :lol: :lol: i was talking about archiving whole audio files for safety copies, remixing 20 years from now in some stupid new format, sending files to somebody using another DAW, etc. i like to backup on the assumption that its the worst case scenario, and the only compatible thing is the wav files.

i totally agree that logics export feature kicks ass for things like exporting certain tracks with sounds in place and everything, i was just saying its shit for what i mentioned above, raw data exporting.

as i said though, i will definitely stay with contiguous files for backup after past experiences man. sure, just a backup copy of the session however its laid out can be enough, but after some nightmare project clusterfucks ive had in the past on DAWs fucking up session files and placing files wrong, or some idiot changing tempo without locked regions or shit like that, its nice to know in the back of my mind that no matter what happens, i can drag the files to 0 and everything will be perfectly synced.

[weedywet]

as a minor aside:

I don't CARE about anyone's ability to remix in 20 years.

the record is made NOW, and then it's DONE.

If it had been impossible to remix Abbey Road (for Love, for example) the world would be a better place.

[David Aurora]

as a minor aside:

I don't CARE about anyone's ability to remix in 20 years.

the record is made NOW, and then it's DONE.

If it had been impossible to remix Abbey Road (for Love, for example) the world would be a better place.

oh dude, im with you, believe me.

unfortunately, the clients paying the bills rarely see things the same logical way :lol:

[HOOK]

(snip)...... but after some nightmare project clusterfucks ive had in the past on DAWs fucking up session files and placing files wrong, or some idiot changing tempo without locked regions or shit like that, its nice to know in the back of my mind that no matter what happens, i can drag the files to 0 and everything will be perfectly synced.

That, my dear David, is because until recently you've been using PT on a ( I presume) PeeCee!! :grin:



HOOK

[David Aurora]

That, my dear David, is because until recently you've been using PT on a ( I presume) PeeCee!! :grin:



HOOK

blasphemer!! granted, ive been a pro tools user before, but a fucking windoze box???!!! jeez dude, give me some credit!! my first mac was a shitty grey colour for fucks sake! not see through, not cool blues or badass aluminium- shitty, regular computer case colour :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: i deserve a little respect here!

[HOOK]

blasphemer!! !

Sorry ´bout that.....

G(r)hey, you say, like this one?



http://www.dkpw.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/macitx.jpg




HOOK

[otek]

dude i think in the grand scheme of things weve just been comparing apples to oranges :lol: :lol: i was talking about archiving whole audio files for safety copies

Actually, I asked you way back if you meant project archiving or file archiving, but you ignored that. So all along I have been making provisions for both.

Read my first post again, where I clearly lay out which is which and what I do. :D


otek

[HOOK]

Read my first post again,

Always read the first post!

Preferably pre rather than post!


:Roll eyes:

...no pan though...


HOOK

[weedywet]

oh dude, im with you, believe me.

unfortunately, the clients paying the bills rarely see things the same logical way :lol:


there's no future-proof format.

What if we evolve to have flippers and are unable to operate a keyboard?

the point being that my obligation, or yours, is to hand the paying client a working (NOW) playable multi-track with all of his elements.

If the record was on 2" tape, would you feel obligated to also hand in a consolidated wav file version just in CASE there were no 2" machines in the year 2525?
I think not.

If my record is in ProTools, my only obligation is to give the record company a consolidated final version of the ProTools session in this week's version.

If in the future they need to play it in another format, it's on THEM to convert it.

Just like it's on us to find a way to play the recordings made on Scotch 111. Or not.

[otek]

Just like it's on us to find a way to play the recordings made on Scotch 111. Or not.

:lol:

I just heard a bunch of people go "huh?!"...


otek

[weedywet]

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350152492246&indexURL=


amazingly McDSP does not offer this an an option in Analogue Channel

[David Aurora]

there's no future-proof format.

What if we evolve to have flippers and are unable to operate a keyboard?

the point being that my obligation, or yours, is to hand the paying client a working (NOW) playable multi-track with all of his elements.

If the record was on 2" tape, would you feel obligated to also hand in a consolidated wav file version just in CASE there were no 2" machines in the year 2525?
I think not.

If my record is in ProTools, my only obligation is to give the record company a consolidated final version of the ProTools session in this week's version.

If in the future they need to play it in another format, it's on THEM to convert it.

Just like it's on us to find a way to play the recordings made on Scotch 111. Or not.


im also not really obligated to label files as "kick", "snare", "lead vocal" as opposed to "audio 1", "audio 2" and "audio 3" on the multitracks but i do it anyway cause it only takes 10 seconds and can save someone a a bunch of time IF the need ever arises to re-open the files.

a 2 inch reel is a COMPLETELY different story- if you shove it on a machine and hit play, the audio is in the right place. DAW files, however, can just be scrambled shit without the necessary info to align them. so, as even you yourself said, consolidating files is the way to go.

so yeah, sorry dude, whether or not its technically my obligation or not i like to give the client the best possible backup i can. as i usually say to them, if i get hit by a bus the day we finish the project and they realise next week that a song needs to be tweaked, its nice to know that they can take the backup to any fucking studio with a computer on the planet and open files without having to convert a damn thing. just drag the files into a DAW and go for it.


ola- ive seen your posts on the different types, but the whole point i was making was that there should be a method to straight up consolidate, not have to remove plugs, remove automation and zero the mixer. when you asked whether i was archiving the mix project or raw files, i responded by saying i thought it was irrelevant, both situations should have consolidated files at the end. see, i WAS listening man :lol:

hook- haha nah mine was a little different, a powermac 8500. never did get around to trying windows 2000 on it hahaha

[weedywet]

That's hardly the same.

Giving someone a MESS, with nothing labelled or making sense is not the only other option.

If my session is in ProTools, then a tidy, well organized, PLAYABLE ProTools session is the extent of my responsibility.

[David Aurora]

That's hardly the same.

Giving someone a MESS, with nothing labelled or making sense is not the only other option.

If my session is in ProTools, then a tidy, well organized, PLAYABLE ProTools session is the extent of my responsibility.

dude, im pretty sure we're basically arguing the same point here. as far as im concerned, the person opening the files should be able to open the session, hit play and have it work. if they dont have the same DAW, they should be able to drag the files into their DAW, hit play and have it work. the simplest way to achieve this is through common start points for files. its dead simple and foolproof. there really isnt an easier way to store/share audio files than that.

[weedywet]

where we are disagreeing is that i don't care if they can open it in another format.
that's up to THEM to figure out a conversion.

just as if I handed in a 2" 24 tk, and they only have ProTools, it's up to THEM to get it transferred effectively

I have given them MY session in a working backup form.

[David Aurora]

where we are disagreeing is that i don't care if they can open it in another format.
that's up to THEM to figure out a conversion.

just as if I handed in a 2" 24 tk, and they only have ProTools, it's up to THEM to get it transferred effectively

I have given them MY session in a working backup form.

yeah, granted, if you worked on tape (be it 2 inch or adat or anything else) its not your problem to provide digital files, and vice versa. i agree totally.

but i dont see any reason not to consolidate files, and you yourself mentioned doing it too earlier in the thread. if you have consolidated files, it doesnt matter in the slightest whether the session files you provide are for logic, pro tools or whatever- if they cant open it, they just open the audio files folder and they have the files ready to drag into a DAW. its not like its some special exporting process, its just a safety net that means whether or not the original DAW is available the files are still readable.

[Bob Olhsson]

i would never assume a Pro Tools or any other kind of "pointer" file will be usable even five years from now.

Consolidating the file gives you the equivalent of a 2" reel. Not consolidating the file is equivalent to needing an SSL Bernoulli drive and an appropriate vintage SSL in order to just play the audio.

[David Aurora]

exactly