Losing Perspective

[oldsoul]

I'm not sure if this is a question or I'm just venting. I've been working on this song for, actually months. It's really only a one day a week kind of thing. Everyone has day jobs, and this ain't it. Anyway the "we" at this point is really me and the guitar player, my brother. He tends to get into a kind U2 kind of a thing with 9 bazillion guitar overdubs to make the song "interesting" He really is very good at it but god damn this is hard work, trying to make everything sit well together. At this point we think we are getting close but all along I feel I've been mixing the song while tracking, so when we officially say the song has been tracked to completion where do I begin to start the mix? I've been listening to the thing for so long a certain way that it's hard to start over or make any radical changes. I'm thinking of trying to go to another studio to mix and force myself into a new perspective on it. I guess I'm burnt on the song at this point. If I was working with tape while doing overdubs would you constantly be trying to create a rough mix each time you work on it? What to do?

[Tim Halligan]

He tends to get into a kind U2 kind of a thing with 9 bazillion guitar overdubs to make the song "interesting"


My first reaction upon reading this is that your brother doesn't think the song is interesting, and that he's trying to "fix" the problem with the gtr overdubs. What needs to be asked at this point is: "Is your brother in fact correct?"

Be warned...you might not like the answer.



I've been listening to the thing for so long a certain way that it's hard to start over or make any radical changes...<snippity>...What to do?


Print a version of the song as it is. Call it the "before" mix. File it.

Next, make a written list of all the tracks in the song, then put all the faders at unity (or at -5dB or -10dB...the number doesn't matter, we're just creating a "faders up" mix), hit play, and walk out of the room, and down the hall a little. With a pen, cross off all of the tracks you cannot hear clearly.

At the end of the track, go back into the room and mute all of the tracks that you crossed off your list. Rinse and repeat a couple more times...

OK, now all of the superfluous crap has been muted, and the track has some room to breathe, try a mix with whatever's left. Print it. Call it the "after" mix.

Wait a couple of days, then compare the before and after mixes.

Which do you prefer? Which is a better representation of the song?

If nothing else, you've been forced into listening to the track in a different way.


Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Tim

[eagan]

Print a version of the song as it is. Call it the "before" mix. File it.

Next, make a written list of all the tracks in the song, then put all the faders at unity (or at -5dB or -10dB...the number doesn't matter, we're just creating a "faders up" mix), hit play, and walk out of the room, and down the hall a little. With a pen, cross off all of the tracks you cannot hear clearly.

At the end of the track, go back into the room and mute all of the tracks that you crossed off your list. Rinse and repeat a couple more times...

OK, now all of the superfluous crap has been muted, and the track has some room to breathe, try a mix with whatever's left. Print it. Call it the "after" mix.

Wait a couple of days, then compare the before and after mixes.



I think that's one of those little ideas that falls under "simple yet absolutely brilliant", Tim.

Try that one. Tim's method there puts a finger right on one of the problems you can develop in the kind of situation you have there.

Put in a different way, working as you have, over time you can get the musical equivalent of pack rat behavior. "Oh, we'll keep everything, I don't want to get rid of anything, I'd hate to toss away something that might be useful later". If you come up with 15 different ideas in a tune, just because any single one of them might be good doesn't mean they will all work together.

Of course it all depends on the actual material and what you're trying to do. But when a project is spread out over time like this, and you keep piling parts and tracks up, you can definitely start to think individual pieces are vital just because they are there and you have been hearing them there for weeks and months.

It's also good to try to put yourself in what the zen guys call "beginner's mind". The idea in this case might be to get away from it a few days (which you're doing anyway) and then put the question to yourself something like "if this were not me, and I had never heard this before, what would I think of it?".

Another thing that might be worth mentioning is this.

If you pile up a mass of, in this case, guitar tracks, remind yourself; just because you have a particular track that was maybe added as extra texture and flavor, and in the course of recording it the part was played all the way through the tune, you don't have to have every track playing all the way through the tune.

Sit back in that fresh beginner's mind mode and don't be afraid (this is one of the great facilities of working with a DAW) to chop whole large sections of individual tracks right out of there. Do the weeding. Then, take what you have left and compile tracks into submixes, and wipe the originals. Commit.


JLE

[Empty Planet]

Great ideas, Tim.

I don't know if you're working ITB, but if so, a more extreme idea is to save the current copy, as Tim suggested, create a new name for the working file, and then wipe all plugins and settings from the current mix. :icon_eek:

Sometimes I can suffocate a song if I overthink it, and sometimes this completely insane trick lets in a much-needed breath of fresh air.

And as Tim pointed out, the Mute button can be such a good friend.

One thing I'll throw in here before I finally shut up, and that's something my girlfriend, who's a visual art/concept artist, shared with me: Consider the Matisse method. Matisse would make really intricate sketches, sometimes even paintings, of the subject he was going to tackle in the actual, final painting. After he'd done that "mapping out," he'd throw out everything he'd done so far, take a break, come back, put up a fresh, white canvas, and pump out the work in a crazy-short amount of time.

Translated to mixing, it means that I can have the freshness and life of a great scratch tape, but with all the mature ideas I developed over the process.

Not for everyone, but Matisse had something there, methinks.

Just an idear.

:very happy:


Cheers.

:Coolio:

[volthause]

I don't know if you're working ITB, but if so, a more extreme idea is to save the current copy, as Tim suggested, create a new name for the working file, and then wipe all plugins and settings from the current mix. :icon_eek:


This is the thing I do most often when I'm feeling like I've lost it. Everything gets completely zeroed, and I start from scratch. Mixes that I've spent "days" working on (like you, mixing and tracking at the same time) I've actually painted myself into a corner that I can't get out of.

Start from the beginning and I'm done with a new mix in a few hours, and it sounds much better than what I had.

And if it doesn't work out, you've saved the current version, so you haven't lost a thing.

[lebouche]

This thread is cool I can relate to it but....

I have to be an arse an mention *Lo(o)sing* Perspective.
People always send me emails about loosing things.


So .......losers and winners lose things, I cant, I can't , I can't stand losing, Loosen the noose, theres a moose loose around this hoose, that there woman is a little loose etc.
Apart from that I cant spell..:Razz:

[Fulcrum]

While I understand where lebouche is coming from, it could also be that the OP is "loosing" his perspective, or wanting to-- in other words, letting go of the preconceived notion he has of the mix. Just a thought.

I'm in the middle of one of those mixes myself at the moment, and it's pretty crucial that I nail this mix as it is for the song that leads off my album. I am finding that the high pass filter is almost as much of a friend to me as the mute button has been on other mixes... that and the panorama dial.

[Empty Planet]

This thread is cool I can relate to it but....

I have to be an arse an mention *Lo(o)sing* Perspective.

:very happy:

I'm completely with you Lebouche. "Losing" is the most misspelled word on the internet. But I figured if I crabbed about spelling then it would kind of drown out what I wanted to say, and the bit about Matisse has really helped me and I thought it might help someone else. But hey, I think you did it with respect, and that's what's important, right?

Really hard to know where to draw these lines, sometimes, daddy-o.

Some people's brains do finicky linguistic stuff really well, other people do trig like it's second nature and can't spell for shite. Just don't throw me any math problems is all I'm sayin'. :)

Peace all around.


:Coolio:

[lebouche]

please don't check my posts for spelling cos its no strong point,it just does seem to be a common mistake...and yes it was absolutely done with respect. :)

[oldsoul]

Ok I'm a retard, "Losing perspective." Anyway great suggestions about listening with everything at the same fader position and determining what's important and contributing in a positive way to the mix. We have recorded many other tracks that we both felt were cool but not helpfull to the song. Those tracks are muted already. I'm going to distance myself from it and try a new mix with all plugins removed and or try it at a different studio using a different DAW. I guess I just feel that this a situation where the artist is creating the song in the studio, and I wish there could be a clearer idea of what the song is ahead of time and then go in and record it then mix it. I don't know hoow Lanois and Eno do it with U2 style records.

[Mixerman]

I'm not sure if this is a question or I'm just venting. I've been working on this song for, actually months. It's really only a one day a week kind of thing. Everyone has day jobs, and this ain't it. Anyway the "we" at this point is really me and the guitar player, my brother. He tends to get into a kind U2 kind of a thing with 9 bazillion guitar overdubs to make the song "interesting" He really is very good at it but god damn this is hard work, trying to make everything sit well together. At this point we think we are getting close but all along I feel I've been mixing the song while tracking, so when we officially say the song has been tracked to completion where do I begin to start the mix? I've been listening to the thing for so long a certain way that it's hard to start over or make any radical changes. I'm thinking of trying to go to another studio to mix and force myself into a new perspective on it. I guess I'm burnt on the song at this point. If I was working with tape while doing overdubs would you constantly be trying to create a rough mix each time you work on it? What to do?

Mixing what you've tracked is an art. The art in it is not second guessing all the decisions you've made along the way. If you've been constructing the production to work the entire time, why would you want to radically change it come mix time?

I can probably answer that question for you. Because the guitar player put too much crap in the song.

A big part of mixing is arrangement. You need to mix the song without the guitar player there, and once you have the mix that you think works, THEN invite the guitar player in to listen and tweak the mix.

Th reason you need to do this alone, is you need ammo. Information is the best ammo when dealing with mixing. When a client portests my removal of a certain part from the arrangement, I have to understand fully WHY the song is better without it and WHY the song is worse with it. If the client then insists that this part is in, then I need to understand WHAT other parts are going to do (print and/or save your mix first, you'll probably need to come back to it.)

When I have arangement discussions with the client or artist, I always know exactly how every part interacts, what it's role is in the production, and why some other part doesn't fill that role better.

I don't know who the client is in this case, but if it's not your brother, and you're feeling the production isn't right then it's your prerogative to make it right. If he is the client, then ultimately, if you can't sway him you just have to give him what he wants.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

P.S. I've fixed the title of this thread.

[malice]

Mixing what you've tracked is an art.


Mixing what you've tracked when you are producing is not only an art, it's almost impossible to mix with the artist present in the room.

but that's just me bitchin :D

The guitarist present is even more problematic.

The guitarist's girlfriend present in the room has a name : Hell.

malice

[Mikebuzz]

Mixing what you've tracked is a METAL !! unobtainium ?? at least for me


Later
Buzz

and whats worse, being the guitarist trying to mix his own shit !!:icon_eek:

[Zoesch]

It's near impossible to be objective when you mix tracks that you have also tracked.

So don't if you can and if you can't avoid it, the technique described by Tim works wonders.

[FredSanford]

Print a version of the song as it is. Call it the "before" mix. File it.

Next, make a written list of all the tracks in the song, then put all the faders at unity (or at -5dB or -10dB...the number doesn't matter, we're just creating a "faders up" mix), hit play, and walk out of the room, and down the hall a little. With a pen, cross off all of the tracks you cannot hear clearly.

At the end of the track, go back into the room and mute all of the tracks that you crossed off your list. Rinse and repeat a couple more times...


I can't wait to try this one out. Brilliant Tim.

[Comte de St Germain]

The guitarist's girlfriend present in the room has a name : Hell.

malice

No not hell, I call her Yoko.

"Ok Yoko."

"Yes (dear) Yoko"

or just mumble over and over under your breath: "don't cry Keioko mother is only looking for her hand in the snow."

[Tim Halligan]

Chaps,
Thanks for the props on the "mix by omission - crap removal" theory, but I must admit the idea isn't original.

Trouble is, I can't remember who I got the idea from...but it's certainly worked for me for a while now, and will hopefully work for others too.


Cheers,
Tim

[Mixerman]

I once had a manager's girlfriend interject an opinion on a mix session that already had 8 too many opinions, all of them different.

That was a fun one I tell ya.

Mixerman

[slabrock]

Mixing what you've tracked when you are producing is not only an art, it's almost impossible to mix with the artist present in the room.

but that's just me bitchin :D

The guitarist present is even more problematic.

The guitarist's girlfriend present in the room has a name : Hell.

:lol: If i'm both producing and mixing, i make it very clear from the very beginning that they get a 30% discount on my pay for every day i'm left alone to mix. If they stay out the entire session, they get a free, long fixing day as a bonus.

"They" obviously means everybody, customers, A&R and the members of the band. They actually even like this possibility of saving in fees, although i've figured out my pay so i can afford it.

I recommend.

Peace,

Slabrock