Honing my craft Dwoz

[BIGDOG]

I thought I had at least twenty more of "those" songs. LOL.

Here's "I WANT YOU" It's the last in a series of "new found, I'm happy in love songs".

[Aardvark]

I am not Dwoz but I go to gay porn sites and sign-up as him for fun now and then.

Not sure what one of "those" songs is but after a listen I will go with the genre known as "Patloaf". Patloaf is a style grounded in the eighties and usually features a singer who unsuccessfully combines the elements of Ms. Benatar, the Pat 'person' from SNL and of Mr. Loaf himself...the Jim Steinman productions are never far from the faders needless to say.

Patloaf itself can be a modestly satisfying dish to the less discerning and let's face it; good taste and significant record sales are not common bedfellows.

On some occasions, Patloaf has made its way into part of the greater lexicon of not great songs that lurch on the edge of great. Bonnie Tyler is a perfect example of Patloaf possibilities... mind you she had Jim himself dial up "Total Eclipse of The Heart".


The song in question suffers from the individual flavours of Patloaf when viewed from a production standpoint but at the same time reaps the benefit of the final dish when the lips hit the loaf.

Thus is the dilemma of any good Patloaf.

Patloaf is not something you serve to your friends but you might play it loud to get folks to leave a waning party. You might even use that moment of too many cocktails to actually turn up the party-pooping-Patloaf in question and allow your baser instincts to forget you have better taste than Patloaf. Really good Patloaf makes it to the next track on the disc before your senses return and play some Miles or something to cleanse the palette.

The next day your wife tells you she thinks you were enjoying the Patloaf last night but you give her the hairyeyeballs and remind yourself you caught her reading Danielle Steel when you first met.

I don't care much for Patloaf but as Patloaf goes this is decent Patloaf.


Cheers,
Aardvark
:Wink:

[BIGDOG]

Hey Aardvark, thanks for the reply. Never heard of the "Patloaf" concept but interesting. Decent Patloaf is better than crappy Patloaf. I'll take it!
BIGDOG

[st robert]

okay, first off, i don't know from patloaf, and i don't have any particular qualities that would make you listen to anything i say, but know that the song failed to draw me in, be it because of mix, arrangement, delivery... hell, all three.

the tones represented in the song are completely unoriginal, not necessarily in the fine tuning of the eq or compression, but in the general sense that nobody appeared to have any fresh ideas on how to propel the song forward via the palette of sounds available at that time. the guits, the bass, the drums, everybody draws from the same tired bag of tricks that they were handed at the door as though it was a competition to see who would blink first and do something interesting.

nobody lost the staring contest until 2:29 when the keyboard player called up a pizzi patch by mistake and decided to run with it, as the only person around to stop tape was passed out under the desk, bored unconscious.





so what do i think? you didn't ask me, you asked dwoz, but as he appears to be reconstructing his gporn cred after aardvark out-gayed him, i'll helpfully chime in til he sees fit to come again, so to speak...

ditch the guits in the first verse and change the progression to try to provide some counterpoint to the lyric feeling, namely, change mode to add interest to otherwise vanilla lyric sentiments. e.g.

c to e7 to f to f/g has a gospelish feel under the same vocal line which would potentially draw the players out of their shells.

c to bflat to aminor to g introduces a #11 feeling with the vocal line which has possibilities as well. alternation of existing chords with these may be the thing.

or pedal c bass under some of the changes.

anything to break the shit up and give the listener something to give a rip about.

similarly, use the guits sparingly, so's that when they do come in for the big fat chorus they mean something. as of now it's all just a standard-guitar-tone-arpeggiation drone after the first 30 seconds or so.

try having the bass player stop his tones shorter to alter the phrasing too. long-short long short, like under the
"you could bay the one for may,
it's not that hard to tstseee"
line. (tsibilance is a bitssstch)

just break it up a bit.

pretty please and shit.

rob

[Aardvark]

okay, first off, i don't know from patloaf...

...the tones represented in the song are completely unoriginal...nobody appeared to have any fresh ideas...the same tired bag of tricks ...



You just described the pillars of Patloaf...with the exception of the secondary Pat reference.



Cheers,
Aardvark

[st robert]

You just described the pillars of Patloaf...with the exception of the secondary Pat reference.



Cheers,
Aardvark
well, shit. i've got projects full of it then.

mmmm.

patloaf.

[BIGDOG]

st robert, thanks for your reply and ideas. What are you working on???

BIGDOG

[dwoz]

I see where you get Patloaf...its really somewhere in there. I, however, hear it being somewhat different.

This is probably because I have a more "experienced" ear with these regional genres than Aardvark, who being somewhat of a "national" guy, misses some of the subtler slices of sub-genre delineation.

I put this as being a Yonkers/Cherry Hill blend...

Yonkers, is, after all, part of New Jersey...regardless of what the map says.

The "Cherry Hill" part is the silver-spoon component, married with the Yonkers "workingman" part.

Its DEFINITELY not Westchester.

Because after all, what HAPPENS in Westchester STAYS in Westchester.

I may be completely off-base here.

But I hear this needing a lot MORE Yonkers and a lot LESS Cherry Hill. This thing needs some of the sweet scent of long minimum-wage overtime hours.

That sweat-tinged "Sea vinegar" that wrinkles our noses and Kindles our Spirit.

missing.

put it in, and it works...more.

dwoz

[dwoz]

st robert, thanks for your reply and ideas. What are you working on???

BIGDOG

StRobert has put up some very refreshing material here for our enjoyment...try clicking on his name, and then clicking on "view all posts by StRobert".

dwoz

[BIGDOG]

Dwoz...ok,cool,I get it. Thanks! Heard some of St. Robert. I personally am having difficulty with it. Remember, I'm into the art of simplicity.
Sounds like he's going completely out of his way to make his songs sound as difficult and complicated as possible. Why? Can't I just have a beat, please and where are the vocals???
BTW, the Trisha Yearwood comments you made previously really made my day!!! I'm still smiling inside. Thank you!
BIGDOG

[Cosmic Pig]

Patloaf... hahahaha. All thats missing is the eighties reverb cannon snare.

Aardy's right it is patloafish. As a genre it had a short moment in the early eighties.. (late seventies?) when it was cool but thankfully went away quickly. It's passing was lamented by a handful of young girls who liked the "stop right there, I wanna know right now" part while making out in the car. I know this because I was one of the ones stopped right there while she carved another notch in her lipstick case. Hell is for children.

Anyways... structure is good... melodies are good... Guitars are eek. That strummy slightly overdriven sound hasn't worked since the sixties, but we must never stop trying.

I'd turf the straight rhythm and go with the tremolo one. maybe picked rather than strummed. Actually I'd change the whole thing. I liked her singing in the first verse.

Cos.

[st robert]

st robert, thanks for your reply and ideas. What are you working on???

BIGDOG

my third tequila, thanks...*rimshot*

[dwoz]

BTW, the Trisha Yearwood comments you made previously really made my day!!! I'm still smiling inside. Thank you!
BIGDOG


Don't know if you're being facetious here, but the comment WAS a compliment. Having someone such as that (hers was just the first 'new country' name that popped into my head, you insert your favorite new country female vocalist here), whatever you may think of the genre, buy your song, would render you able and capable of casually tinkering at your craft for the rest of your life, without having to be a wage slave ever again.

dwoz

[dwoz]

Since BIGDOG has in fact NOT bristled and commented on my previous Yonkers-is-in-new-jersey comment, I have to conclude that she's not actually from new york, but rather is from New Haven.

or worse, Danbury.


Oh, how sad!


dwoz

[st robert]

Dwoz...ok,cool,I get it. Thanks! Heard some of St. Robert. I personally am having difficulty with it. Remember, I'm into the art of simplicity.
Sounds like he's going completely out of his way to make his songs sound as difficult and complicated as possible. Why? Can't I just have a beat, please and where are the vocals???


yeah, that st robert guy...

I'M RIGHT HERE! I CAN HEAR YOU!

sheesh.

i appreciate your appreciation of the simple, and yes, i am prone to filling up an arrangement, depending on which of the songs you listen to. (for my simple song, i offer "in the garden" as exhibit F, available on the dwoz aardvark radio up top)

but even simple songs keep you there.
how? by offering a different look to the same shit as the tune wears on. it doesn't have to be a bunch, just ear tickles.

and bunnies and squirrels and shit.

rob

[BIGDOG]

DWOZ,
Okay...I thought I knew what you meant by your Yonkers and Cherry Hill comment. Care to translate? You know, I've been recording at Studio F which is in Jersey City. Maybe that explains it. New Jersey is new to me. But I dig it!!!
Actually, I am from Southern California. I've been living in the Village/Soho area for a few years and I am soooooo not being facetious about the Trisha Yearwood comment!!! I'm really diggin it!!! Thanks again.

To those who made the PatLoaf comments, well...I love Pat Benetar(I am so inspired by her)my vocal coach said he worked with her back in the day. I also love Bonnie Tyler and 80's rock. Pat being the best female vocalist ever. Bonnie the female Rod Stewart and some of the best rock came from the 80's. It's all in my Ipod!!! The PatLoaf comment really put a big smile on my face.

St Robert...don't worry I see you over there!

BIGDOG

[dwoz]

DWOZ,
Okay...I thought I knew what you meant by your Yonkers and Cherry Hill comment. Care to translate? You know, I've been recording at Studio F which is in Jersey City. Maybe that explains it. New Jersey is new to me. But I dig it!!!
Actually, I am from Southern California. I've been living in the Village/Soho area for a few years
BIGDOG

Stop a New Yorker on the street and ask them to explain it. Whatever you do, DON'T tell them how to find me.

dwoz

[Mixerman]

I thought I had at least twenty more of "those" songs. LOL.

Here's "I WANT YOU" It's the last in a series of "new found, I'm happy in love songs".

Okay. Let's evaluate the song for a moment.

One of the first things I learned about songwriting was to avoid, as much as possible, ending phrases with the words "me" and "you." Now granted, there are times when this is necessary, and if you end a phrase in your song with one of these words it does not make your song bad, nor does it exclude it from being one of the great songs of all time. Regardless, you STILL want to avoid ending phrases with these two little words. The thinking is, "you" and "me" are overused and trite by virtue of the fact that so many songs are discussing both you and me. Therefore, these are not interesting ways to end phrases. Like I said before, sometimes it's necessary. Every now and again you can get away with one.

Now, let's look at your rhyme structure for a moment.

You
Cool
Me
See
you
you
you
you
Be
Sweet
You
Knew
you
you
you
you
Eyes
Inside
Do
You
you
you
you
you
you
you
you
you

Ah. So you broke the rule. And like I said, occasionally, it's okay to break the rule. But not for every line in the whole damn song! I mean, please show me just ONE interesting rhyme in this song. The only one that even comes close to being intereting is "Be" and "Sweet," and believe me, it's not that interesting.

Now let's look at the lyrical content:

Verse 1
I, could spend, my life with you
Tell me, would that be cool?
You, could be, the one for me.
It's not that hard to see.

You're telling some guy that you want to spend the rest of your life with him. Um, isn't that what he should be saying to you? Then you ask him if that would be cool. I think I told you this on your other song, but never, ever, ever give the listener a chance to answer your question. In this case the answer is no. Sorry.

Then you tell the listener that this guy, the guy that you said you want to spend the rest of your life with, COULD be the one. You just told him you want to spend the rest of your life with him. Make up your mind! Is he "the one" or not? Are you merely trying to convince him?

Verse 2
You, is where, I want to be.
Life could be so sweet.
If you, let me be, the one for you
You'd make me feel brand new

Do you think that telling someone that they should let you be the one because it would make you feel "brand new" is somehow convincing? If he's not into you, then this argument is not going to miraculously sway him. Believe me. I'm a guy, I know these things. If a woman who I'm not sure is the "one" tries to convince me by telling me she'll be "brand new," I'd really have to reevaluate the wisdom of that relationship.

Bridge
When you look at me with those eyes
deep inside
It's just the little things that you do
It keeps me wanting more of you

Ack! This is the very definition of trite! The bridge is your opportunity to supply us with the meaning of the song, and you just spent it driving home the same theme from EVERY line previous to these four. YOU WANT HIM!!!!! We get it. Trust me. Yet, we don't know why. In reality we know nothing about this guy other than the fact that he can do just one little thing, like look at you, to make you want him more. That's all he has to do? How about the dishes? Would that make you want him more? Picking up his socks? Taking out the garbage? How about a brake job on your car? Or what if he retiled your bathroom for you? Nah! All this guy has to do is LOOK at you. Fuck. I have to do all of the above around the house, buy my wife expensive shit, take her out to nice dinners, and all this guy ever has to do is look at you, deep inside, and you love him more!

I've been sold a bill of goods I tell ya.

Okay, I realize I'm being ruthless here. But guess what? So are listeners. They're just not with you to tell you, nor are they typically able to verbalize any kind of reasoning behind their disdain, or worse yet, their total ambivalance for your song. The listener critiques with the skip button. And they're skipping I tell you. Skipping to the next CD.

Actually, I'd like to take this moment to apologize for being this ruthless. I'm not typically this harsh in my critiques. But I think you need this kind of critique. I think that you're here looking for stroking, and I'm here to tell you, there's nothing here to stroke. And what you have to understand is this: My JOB is listening to songs, figuring out why they are or aren't working and making them work better. That's what I'm paid to do. And as an expert in this subject, I have to tell you, this song isn't working.

Now then, if you want to learn about writing lyrics, you need to get The Craft of Lyric Writing by Sheila Davis. There is also a workbook that you can get called Successful Lyric Writing.

Yes, I know. You're writing from the heart. Well unfortunately, that's not enough for a good song. Hey, if you're guy thinks it's a good song and decides he wants to marry you because of it, good job. Mission accomplished. But if the goal is to write a good song, then you need to learn to write a good lyric. That is not a good lyric, and I defy you to find a good lyric, in the history of lyrics, which rhymes the word "you" with "you" 20 times in a song.

In order to learn how to write a good lyric, you need to get those Sheila Davis books and you need to get, and listen to, some of the greatest songwriters of our time. Start with Billy Joel who is a master craftsman at song and lyric writing. Even if he's not your cup of tea, his use of rhyme structure, rhythmic & rhyme accelleration, and lyrical content is masterful.

Now if you'll excues me, I have to stick my head in my fireplace, and unstick the fucking flu which I've just discovered someone left open. This, of course, explains why it's fucking 60 downstairs, 90 upstairs, and why the heater goes on 8 times an hour. My wife will be most appreciative.

Ah, love. Love is grand. Divorvce is 800 grand. Yeah, I think I'll fix the flu.

Mixerman


I, could spend, my life with you
Tell me would that be cool?
You, could be, the one for me.
It's not that hard to see.

That I want, I want you
and I need, I need you
Got to have ... you
And I want hold of you

You, is where, I want to be.
Life could be so sweet.
If you, let me be, the one for you
You'd make me feel brand new

That I want I want you
and I need I need you
Got to have you
And I want hold of you

When you look at me with those eyes
deep inside
It's just the little things that you do
It keeps me wanting more of you

I want you
Can't you see

That I want, I want you
And I need, I need you
Got to have ... you
That I want you, I want you
And I need, I need you
Got to have ... you
And I want hold of you

I could spend my life with you

[BIGDOG]

Mixerman,Thanks for the reply and I'll pick up the book! Not to ruthless this time. Good info.
BIGDOG

[Fulcrum]

Since BIGDOG has in fact NOT bristled and commented on my previous Yonkers-is-in-new-jersey comment, I have to conclude that she's not actually from new york, but rather is from New Haven.

or worse, Danbury.


Oh, how sad!

Yo, you're in my house now, dawg. New Haven is actually pretty happening. And you can find something to do in Danbury, if you look hard enough.

You actually meant Waterbury, or Willimantic. The two armpits of the state.

Will listen to this later, now that I've fixed dwoz' CT geography.

[dwoz]

Yo, you're in my house now, dawg. New Haven is actually pretty happening. And you can find something to do in Danbury, if you look hard enough.

You actually meant Waterbury, or Willimantic. The two armpits of the state.

Will listen to this later, now that I've fixed dwoz' CT geography.


Well, most people skip new haven entirely...its not much of a college town!

:lol:

dwoz

[Mixerman]

Here is an example of a great song. Why do you think this lyric works despite abandoning the identical "tools" as you did in your song?

I would recommend buying the song on itunes.

Cheap Trick
I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Im beggin you to beg me.

I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
I'd love you to love me.
Ill shine up the old brown shoes, put on a brand-new shirt.
Ill get home early from work if you say that you love me.

Didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Feelin all alone without a friend, you know you feel like dyin.
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?

I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Im beggin you to beg me.
Ill shine up the old brown shoes, put on a brand-new shirt.
Ill get home early from work if you say that you love me.

Didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Feelin all alone without a friend, you know you feel like dyin.
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Feelin all alone without a friend, you know you feel like dyin.
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?

I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Im beggin you to beg me.
I want you to want me.
I want you to want me.
I want you to want me.
I want you to want me.

[Cosmic Pig]

Ummm... Cadence? Word flow? Wait, I just scanned back, Rhythmic accelleration?

I'll have to pick up those books. I've never been one for lyrics but I always respected their musical place in a tune. So far it's been instinctive with regard to cadence but I just glimmered there's more to it than meets the eye.... shit, something else to figure out. Fuuuuuck. every time I start thinking I'm all fancy ass you guys blast my poor illusions to smithereenies.

That's what I love about this place.

Them books better not be expensive Mixerman you asshole.

Cos.