Movin On with "Move On"

[BIGDOG]

Dwoz,Mixerman and Aardvark:

Critique du Soleil has been a great learning tool!
Thanks. Even though you are driving me to drink!!!

BIGDOG

[Mixerman]

Dwoz,Mixerman and Aardvark:

Critique du Soleil has been a great learning tool!
Thanks. Even though you are driving me to drink!!!

BIGDOG

Here are your rhyme pairings in this song:

you/you
down/around
on, closure/on, closure
much/enough
realize
do?
on/closure-on closure
start/mine-heart, time
on/closure-on, closure

The rhyme structure of this song for the verse is AABB. For the chorus there is no rhyme structure because the definition of a rhyme requires that there is a different consonant before the rhyming vowel. So Him/Hymn does not rhyme.

Here is a small excerpt from Sheila Davis' book The Craft of Lyric Writing:

"Rhyme is a verbal adhesive. It helps ideas to stick in the memory. I like Ike. The words you highlight by rhyming should emondy the idea you want to stress. Right makes might. By giving a word an echo, you are telling your audience: pay attention to this, it's important. If a word is insignificant to your overall meaning, don't rhyme it."

Rhyme, as I alluded to on your last critique, is also used to accellerate the listener into the chorus. Yet, on the second verse, not only do you not accellerate the listener, you stop them dead in their tracks by coupling realize/do. The goal of the songwriter is to push the listener forward. You need to use your tools to push the listener forward. Skipping a rhyme before a chorus, and then using NO rhyme in the chorus is a complete abandoning of some of the most effective lyrical tools used to push the listener forward. If you're not going to push the listener with your lyrics and rhyme structure, then the burdne falls completely on the music.

Mixerman

I want to forgive you
but it's hard to forgive you
'cause you beat my heart down
and took a while to come around

and that's why I want to move on
I want closure
I want to move on
I want closure

I give you so much
But it was never enough
Now I do realize
There ain't nothing more that I can do

That's why I want to move on
I want closure
I want to move on
I want closure

I want a brand new start
I'm gonna get mine, I'm gonna get mine
You won't break my heart
This is the last time
This is the last time

I want to move on
I want closure

I want to move on
I want closure
I want to move on
I want closure
I want to move on
I want closure

[BIGDOG]

Mixerman
Sorry thought I was movin on. Back to "I Want You" for a second.
What is wrong with a girl telling a guy that she could to spend her life with him? Give me one good reason why she has to wait for him to say it??? It's 2007 not 1957! Okay, what I mean about feeling "brand new" is the feeling of being excited and happy again. Most guys I assume, would feel pretty good knowing they make a girl happy and excited. Al Green uses it in his song "Let's Stay Together" so does Madonna, "Like a Virgin". My interpretation of that line, again, is the feeling of happiness and excitement. "The way you look at me with those eyes". What I mean is, he looks into my eyes when I talk to him. He's really listens to me when I talk!!! Believe me, that is soooo important to women!!! I like to write songs as if I am talking to them directly. More conversational. Therefore my songs are not so structured or do they abide by any "rules". I hate "rules". I am trying to write a simple message leading to hopefully, a catchy as hell and strong chorus.
BIGDOG

[BIGDOG]

Mixerman I just heard a Jennifer Lopez song (dont' write her off because she's Jennifer) "Baby I Love You". Check out the chorus.
It ends with you,you,you,you,you. By the way, I always loved that song by Cheap Trick.
BIGDOG

[Mixerman]

Mixerman
Sorry thought I was movin on. Back to "I Want You" for a second.
What is wrong with a girl telling a guy that she could to spend her life with him? Give me one good reason why she has to wait for him to say it??? It's 2007 not 1957! Okay, what I mean about feeling "brand new" is the feeling of being excited and happy again. Most guys I assume, would feel pretty good knowing they make a girl happy and excited. Al Green uses it in his song "Let's Stay Together" so does Madonna, "Like a Virgin". My interpretation of that line, again, is the feeling of happiness and excitement. "The way you look at me with those eyes". What I mean is, he looks into my eyes when I talk to him. He's really listens to me when I talk!!! Believe me, that is soooo important to women!!! I like to write songs as if I am talking to them directly. More conversational. Therefore my songs are not so structured or do they abide by any "rules". I hate "rules". I am trying to write a simple message leading to hopefully, a catchy as hell and strong chorus.
BIGDOG

They aren't rules. They're tools. Tools that are used as a songwriter to push the listener forward.

For instance, avoiding the tonic in the melody until the chorus, that's a tool for achieving greater payoff in the chorus. Using higher notes in your melody in the chorus is also a tool. Using a unique rhyme in the chorus from the rest of the song is a tool. (Billy Joel uses this tool frequently. If his most important rhyme in the chorus is an 'i' rhyme, then he is sure to avoid 'i' rhymes in the rest of the song). Accellerating the frequency of melodic phrases, accellerating the frequency of rhyme, these are tools used to push the listener to the chorus. Using your most interesting and important words in the rhyme positions is a tool. Phrasing melody across bars in a non-linear manner in the verse, that's a tool. When you use a multitude of tools, your song becomes more effective. Whether you used them on purpose or not. I know plenty of songwriters that use these tools without ever thinking about it.

And yes, you also employ tools in your songwriting. But now you're coming here asking for a critique. And I am providing you with the concept that there is more to think about in wriiting a song than how you feel. What makes a song effective is the art in presentation, combined with content that people can either identify with, or enjoy singning. We know certain things that are effective in songwriting and ineffective in songwriting. And while you are using some of the tools intuitively, you are abandoning far too many of them to make your song effective.

So this isn't about breaking rules. This is about breaking tools.

I put up the "I Want You to Want Me" lyric by Cheap Trick (in the other thread) as an example, to point out that they, like you, abandoned an important lyrical tool. Yet that song works. Why? Because they used musical tools in which to push the song forward. If you listen to the song, as the "I want, I need, I'm begging" lines are being sung, musically the song is walking down a perpetual ladder. The progression keeps moving down the scale, without actually repeating. This action provides tension for the listener, because you can't go down forever. Something is going to happen. THAT pushes the listener forward. IN this case, the lyric doesn't, but the music DOES. The lesson here? If you abandon the use of some of your most powerful tools, you MUST emply the use of other tools in order to push the listener forward.

Then there's the "Didn't I, Didn't I" part. Take a look at the melody. The harmony walks down a ladder the entire A sections. Then in this C section the melody walks UP the ladder in an accellerated manner. This is a tool. It's smart songwriting. They may NEVER have though of it in this manner. They may have just done it completely intuitively. But we have the luxury of being able to evaluate why it works.

And we haven't even TOUCHED content yet.

Mixerman

Cheap Trick
I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Im beggin you to beg me.

I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
I'd love you to love me.
Ill shine up the old brown shoes, put on a brand-new shirt.
Ill get home early from work if you say that you love me.

Didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Feelin all alone without a friend, you know you feel like dyin.
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?

I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Im beggin you to beg me.
Ill shine up the old brown shoes, put on a brand-new shirt.
Ill get home early from work if you say that you love me.

Didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Feelin all alone without a friend, you know you feel like dyin.
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Feelin all alone without a friend, you know you feel like dyin.
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?

I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Im beggin you to beg me.
I want you to want me.
I want you to want me.
I want you to want me.
I want you to want me.

[subvocal]

They aren't rules. They're tools. Tools that are used as a songwriter to push the listener forward.

For instance, avoiding the tonic in the melody until the chorus, that's a tool for achieving greater payoff in the chorus. Using higher notes in your melody in the chorus is also a tool. Using a unique rhyme in the chorus from the rest of the song is a tool. (Billy Joel uses this tool frequently. If his most important rhyme in the chorus is an 'i' rhyme, then he is sure to avoid 'i' rhymes in the rest of the song). Accellerating the frequency of melodic phrases, accellerating the frequency of rhyme, these are tools used to push the listener to the chorus. Using your most interesting and important words in the rhyme positions is a tool. Phrasing melody across bars in a non-linear manner in the verse, that's a tool. When you use a multitude of tools, your song becomes more effective. Whether you used them on purpose or not. I know plenty of songwriters that use these tools without ever thinking about it.

And yes, you also employ tools in your songwriting. But now you're coming here asking for a critique. And I am providing you with the concept that there is more to think about in wriiting a song than how you feel. What makes a song effective is the art in presentation, combined with content that people can either identify with, or enjoy singning. We know certain things that are effective in songwriting and ineffective in songwriting. And while you are using some of the tools intuitively, you are abandoning far too many of them to make your song effective.

So this isn't about breaking rules. This is about breaking tools.

I put up the "I Want You to Want Me" lyric by Cheap Trick (in the other thread) as an example, to point out that they, like you, abandoned an important lyrical tool. Yet that song works. Why? Because they used musical tools in which to push the song forward. If you listen to the song, as the "I want, I need, I'm begging" lines are being sung, musically the song is walking down a perpetual ladder. The progression keeps moving down the scale, without actually repeating. This action provides tension for the listener, because you can't go down forever. Something is going to happen. THAT pushes the listener forward. IN this case, the lyric doesn't, but the music DOES. The lesson here? If you abandon the use of some of your most powerful tools, you MUST emply the use of other tools in order to push the listener forward.

Then there's the "Didn't I, Didn't I" part. Take a look at the melody. The harmony walks down a ladder the entire A sections. Then in this C section the melody walks UP the ladder in an accellerated manner. This is a tool. It's smart songwriting. They may NEVER have though of it in this manner. They may have just done it completely intuitively. But we have the luxury of being able to evaluate why it works.

And we haven't even TOUCHED content yet.

Mixerman

[/I]

this post has some very good info.

[mousdrvr]

Cheap Trick
I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Im beggin you to beg me.


And thousands of Japanese School Girls are sceeming to this day!

[subvocal]

Big
Really professional sound to my ears. Very together sounding song (like an actual real song)

Mix: I would bring the vocals up a little.

Very impressive. The vocalist has a good set of ears on her.
congrats.
SV

[BIGDOG]

Thanks! I agree on the louder vocal which was made louder.
BIGDOG