How do you *actually* get your songs listened to?

[bunnerabb]

I've seen all the websites, the workshops, the malarkey foisted off as "how to break into the biz"...

... Fuck that shit.

How do you get your stuff under the noses of people who can do something with your work if they hear a hit song or three?

Is it all networking? Who you know? Anybody here can help me get these songs sold, come spring? I know business is a courtship process, but I ain't taking my knickers down until I get the roses, dinner, movie and ride home in writing.

[bunnerabb]

Ya MAMA is a Village People dick garage, motherfucker!

:lol:

[Bob Olhsson]

You include enough information in the package to indicate that you know what you are doing at a gig, have been well recieved, understand what you need to do to support a release and have a pretty good idea of who your audience is and how to reach them.

Every A&R mook has a drawer full of recordings they think could be hits but didn't think the artist had what it takes to sell themselves to the industry and the public.

I go back to my hamburger analogy. Anybody can easily make a better burger than McDonalds. Taking that burger to the bank and asking for a loan to build a burger stand won't get you very far. Taking the banker to see your little orange crate on the street where people are lined up around the block to buy your burgers is what it takes.

The same is true of music.

[bunnerabb]

Well.. yeah.

But.. at this stage of the game, I don't see getting inked as a performing recording artist under contract to a label.

All the money is on younger ponies, as far as I can tell, and while I wouldn't mind being the cat who takes this stuff to the radio as the artist, I think I'd be better off just trying to get the songs out with established artists.

Same track?

[Tim Armstrong]

I think it involves sacrificial goats, chicken entrails, and great big bags of money...

Cheers, Tim

edit: I just realized you want to sell the SONGS, not your recordings of said songs. Different thing, mostly.

I reckon you'd want to go talk to publishers, play them your songs, and see who offers you a deal (or the best deal)...

Tim

[J.G.]

Boob implants don't hurt none neither...

But I hear ya, Bun, I hear yaaaaaaaaaa.

[bunnerabb]

Boob implants don't hurt none neither...


Marilyn Manson beat me to that trick.

:D

[Kenny Gioia]

If you're trying to get your songs placed on other's records than the best thing to do is hang out with those artists.

Sounds hard but if you're out there rubbing shoulders with these people they may want to hear your songs or even co-write with you.

It's not easy to rub shoulders with Bono but if you look at Billboards 150-200, they may be more approachable.

Getting a publishing deal also helps but in my experience, you need to be out there selling yourself.

Good luck.

[bunnerabb]

I've been networking my ass off, so.. I hope.

I got a couple of contacts and some people passin' this thing off, as well.

I never really cottoned to the idea of giving a publisher half my royalties and mechanicals when ASCAP collects the money and they just cash the checks and then cut me one. I'd definitely like to own my songs.

[saxplayerz]

I don't think the artist chair is all that hipp of a seat to be in.
Everyone up the chain is making more do ray me than the artist.
If the record fails then the artist is the first one to get dropped.

[MACEinNY]

Networking actually does help. Ya know...getting to know the people that you want to hear your stuff. You can sell music on myspace now. Check out something like AWAL. It's all about digital distribution now, screw the record companies. Record your songs, send them to AWAL or something similar, then play shows and tell your audience where to find it...iTunes? emusic? napster? myspace?

You want all the licensing and all the money, then you gotta do all the work.

[bunnerabb]

Well, I don't have a myspace page and I don't think I'll be getting one any time soon because that page, AFAICT, is pretty much about having a myspace page and as far as selling your tunes, one at a time.. I think Rupert - that fat, greasy, wrinkly, old man - owns enough shit.

However, yeah...

I thinks it's time to hit the street.

[Tim Armstrong]

I never really cottoned to the idea of giving a publisher half my royalties and mechanicals when ASCAP collects the money and they just cash the checks and then cut me one. I'd definitely like to own my songs.

I hear ya, but a publisher who can actually get your songs on records would be cutting you some pretty sweet checks...

Just saying...

Cheers, Tim

[bunnerabb]

Point.

I got to get this thing tracked, soon.

I set a May deadline for it and frankly, I don't know if I'll make it. I just set up the whole rig and upon firing it up, I figured out that this room sounds so bad, after treatments, that I have no idea what I'm listening to.

I'm gonna move the whole thing upstairs and try out a less technology heavy approach.

I'm supposed to take the whole thing out to a friend's room about 60 miles off, for the mix, but I can't even find my car keys.

Some dandy mixers on here have asked for the tracks and are willing to take a shot at the mix and, I can't wait to hear it. :)

I also got a cat who uses this board and is out in L.A. who said he would pass it off to a major, platinum country producer if he likes what he hears.

I got an old buddy in Nashville who's played on more platinum albums than Paul McCartney, but he has no idea as to how to push this under the noses of people looking to get hit songs for their artists.

Looks like I'm going to have to get a publisher and, I was gonna join BMI for free but the collections rate looks as though giving ASCAP the 10.00 would do me better in the long run.

I don't mind all this work but I really like paychecks for it.

Suggestions welcome.

[saxplayerz]

What about a song plugger ? Are there folks in Nashville that specialize in placing songs on records and with artiststs ? How do you get to know those folks ? or are they the publishing companies ? I never though a publisher would do much work for their %.

[nobby]

What about a song plugger ? Are there folks in Nashville that specialize in placing songs on records and with artiststs ? How do you get to know those folks ? or are they the publishing companies ? I never though a publisher would do much work for their %.

I'm skeptical of song pluggers. How do you know they're actually doing anything if you aren't following them around?

The people who are most likely do do something for you are usually paid for their results.

[neoclassic]

All songwriters have the same q ;how to get your stuff to the industry.then all answers come,and here is mine.
Although i am not in it globally,i made the plan for it,this plan is much like the Hamburger Analogy of Dr.Bob,but slightly different.
As i see,the production companies are depending on the producers butproducers are depending on the songwriters and performers,as i see them the songwriter,the cook and the product,the performer,the hamburger.the owner of the company is the manager of that hamburger house for sure.but one of the important things to beat the mcdonalds is the creator of that style of hamburger must not cook all the time if he believes he is doing the right style of cooking.he should find other cooks,not letting them put their own style but teach them to cook like him,exactly like him,then he can manage the place with a larger wiev,finding new products(not like copying the stuff of mcdonalds and giving it a different name but creating something else,something you are good at),then teaching it to the cooks,then you reach to your own menu in time,your own stlye of serving,not just racing with another winner,but winning without racing,only creating.
At this point,you should decide to be the cook who starts his place which can turn into a kingdom in time,or,he will be a cook trying to cook in some restaurant but no restaurant owner takes him because they get their cook from the advices of their hommies,buddies,they do not believe in talent,they believe in friends.
So my style is this,i am composing and wrting lyrics,composing on some others lyrics,wrtining on others songs,arranging,modifiyng others products.can compose in many style,which shows me a have a menu to start with.i will not go to the bank and tell them to come and eat in my restaurant then decide about helping me with finance,they will eat it for free and go away.i will ask my buddies,my friends,musician,non musicianwho has radio shows of their own,who writes in the music magazines,writing about sports,teachers,younger friends,students,older friends architects whoever they are,i will invite my friends to eat in my place,the ones who mostly will like my work.they will spread the name for sure,without knowing they are helping you to grow.The only important thing is you shouldnt race or compete with others,as the core of art is not competing but completing the ideas of yours.So if it is myspace to begin with,its myspace,if it is the womb then there it is,or face book,or whatever you can get help about sharing your thing,you really dont need a big company to bang on your door and give you lots of cash for your work,they wont.they wont unless they see you are very decisive about growing cleverly,creating and working not to beat them but to evolve yourself every passing day.then they will try to stop you from growing larger(they will try to race with you,understand that they cant no more,so they will try to but you out)like microsoft did to google,if it is a fine deal it can be taken,but if you have a lot more to do,and happy doing your thing your own way,then it is your choice,thats the logical way of reaching to all i believe.the only way turning your destiny about this work more than lottery,that all creators(lazys) are looking for:)

[zenpool1]

I'm pretty much "Mr.Internets" (as GW would say).
Much of my production work stems from my artist days,
the rep i've built w/ other net-based artists.
If you're really interested (i'm sure), Google Zenpool.

2003 was the year I looked back, realized that I'd
given up probably 60,000 DLs, hadn't made a nickel
or even gotten a "kiss my ass" for the effort, so i bailed.
Songplanet's the only OMD I post new music on now,
mainly because i've had tunes at #1 in some
genre the entire time (and still do).
I now concentrate efforts on the 55 P4DL sites,
Itunes, SonyDirect, Toweronline, Bestbuyonline....
using them for the vetting the OMDs lack.
There's no "submit" button at Itunes.
CDs are sold through CDBaby (highly recommended):Coolio:


OMDs, MySpace's only value is as a place to park
music, send self-generated promo. MySpace isn't
quite as bad yet, but the OMDs for the most
part are nothing but other "artists" all seeking attention.
It's like those seagulls in "Finding Nemo"...Mine? Mine?
Casual listeners AKA "the buying public" don't exist there.
The stage is packed, the seats are empty.

The only requirement being, owning a computer, the
ability to post music, artists are buried along with any
kid w/ the free version of Acid, or a Playstation Musicmaker,
in a "forest for the trees" situation.
What few non-musician listeners there are, aren't inclined,
or don't have time, to pick through the drek to find a few gems.
A&R people certainly aren't there either.

These sites fill up w/ artists, eat huge chunks of server
space, the admin comes to the realization that there's no
viable way to generate bux, and fold like MP3.com, Besonic
(DE, the "BE" being BMG, Bertlesmann), ect.
You then find out what the fine print said in the
artist's agreement. :Confused:
READ THE AGREEMENT! You wouldn't believe what
some of them say they can do to and with your music...!

Don't waste your time spreading yourself on site after site,
unless you need multiple forums to communicate w/ the same
bunch of artists, doing the same thing. :Roll eyes:
There's also a faction of musicians that have talent,
but are too fugly to pass the 8x10 requirement.
See Bob's "drawer full of submissions.." comment.


The simple facts are, it takes money to make money,
you have to be marketable.

Kirk

[bbkong]

The successful songwriters I know didn't just write a few tunes and strike it rich.

They wrote hundreds and hundreds of tunes.

They walk around with a pen and pad in their pockets scribbling all the time. Some carry pitch pipes. Somehow, there's always a guitar within reach. They are walking song writing machines.

About one out of twenty tunes they write actually contain all the elements that make a song great, not just good. Good just isn't good enough.

Being known for coming up with great tunes on a regular basis will attract a lot of attention and eventually make you some money.

[Bob Olhsson]

I have the same experience. The most successful songwriters I've encountered were amazingly prolific typically finishing 5 to 10 songs a week with another 20 or so that they were working on at any given time.

[bbkong]

I'd go so far as to say that songwriting is a developed skill/habit.

Some guys crawl out in the morning and practice every day or mix, or write songs. Or go dig ditches.

Don't think I've ever met one who has a natural knack for turning out consistently good material. It's a labor of love.

[neoclassic]

i Feel the same there.its like everyday is not the same,everything you create cannot be as interesting as some that you make.But its not the end of your life,i dont believe in composing all the time,i believe in composing when you want to burst it out.its like filling yourself with it day by day,till you cannot hold it no more,so it comes out.you dont push it,or all you bring out is sht with different shapes.you dont bring it in by trying,it comes out when it should come.so,if you write a thousand songs a day,if you didnt get the right time,its all crap,no suprise there.

[eagan]

I can't say shit with any authority about what it takes to be a hit songwriter, not having ever written one.

But maybe there's something to consider in the story of Thomas Edison and the filament light bulb.

It wasn't about Edison waking up one day shouting "eureka! I've got it! I know how to make a lamp powered by electricity!". It was about working through about 2000 ways to not make a light bulb, and then one day something actually worked.

You can good stories from people working in any number of areas, like assorted visual arts. A good photographer doesn't click off six shots and come up with six great photos. They might burn through roll after roll in a given setting and go through them and come up with six great shots. They might even go through and shitcan all of it.

An old friend of mine who is a very good glass artist used to joke about what he called the "avant gradeschool movement". What he was talking about was the kind of people he would run across now and then.

They hadn't actually studied and worked through making a bunch of sloppy crap until they got to a point where they were slowly beginning to make some stuff that was actually starting to get decent, if still not great, and kept going working toward Really Good. They wouldn't bother really learning the craft of it. They would just get some half assed idea and shit out some cheesy half assed junk and proudly show it off and feel awfully proud of themselves. "Look! I made something!". If it was some physical medium of visual arts, it might even be something that would physically start to disintegrate in short order because they just simply didn't have a fucking clue, technically, about what they were doing (and couldn't be bothered to learn, because to learn about such things was mundane and boring and not about their "creativity").

There are similar stories about similar conversations with people I've known working in other areas.

The main point is that a lot of this stuff probably comes down to people making any Great Art being less about some innate spark of inspired genius and insight and more about constantly working stuff and then being a really good editor.

It's not about every little thing they fart out being some brilliant thing.

It's about them working a lot, going through it all, and not ever letting the rest of the world ever be exposed to all the stuff that turned out to be inane bullshit.


JLE

[neoclassic]

i agree wtih the idea,practice makes perfect for sure.however practicing for creating is not only about writing one song after another,but experiencing life,so you can find the subject to write about.That experience does not only depend on our life,but the onjes around us,the ones nefore us,and especially the other composers,which means listening to the ones different than us.So two sided story of creating includes practicing for all,but in my wiev,to put a great product,you should have had that great moment,or mabye missed that greatness,i dunno,that my point of wiev,in both ways,practice makes perfect for sure:)

[bbkong]

i agree wtih the idea,practice makes perfect for sure.however practicing for creating is not only about writing one song after another,but experiencing life,so you can find the subject to write about.That experience does not only depend on our life,but the onjes around us,the ones nefore us,and especially the other composers,which means listening to the ones different than us.So two sided story of creating includes practicing for all,but in my wiev,to put a great product,you should have had that great moment,or mabye missed that greatness,i dunno,that my point of wiev,in both ways,practice makes perfect for sure:)

Dude.


Here's a quarter.

Go fix your space bar and shift button.


The occasional misspelled words don't bother me, but if you think run on sentences with no paragraphs or spaces is cool, try reading your own post out loud in one breathe.

[shlampe]

Eagan, great post. Rep points up the wazoo for that. As just one minor addition, i'd say that having self awareness or the ability to say, "wow that really sucked" is really important as well. A lot of that has to do with education and knowing as much about your medium as possible, whether that medium be music, sculpting, farting or drinking. You're never going to know whether you're good at it or not unless you've actually learned what's good (or at least what you like) by experiencing as much as possible about the medium you're working in.

Back to the original question, i'd say it's all networking. 90% of the business I get now is because I go to every function possible, meet as many people as possible and glad hand like a mf'er. It works for the most part as long as I'm delivering solid product on the other end. I had a band in college and our CD ended up getting picked up by a label, it wasn't a great CD I still listen to it now and again and i'm proud of it, but the ONLY reason that we got picked up was because our bass player did a website for the label. 'cause he was a networking fool. Yup, i'm a lead singer admitting that bass player was smarter than me. It's taken years in counseling to get to this point, but I've finally done it.

[eagan]

As just one minor addition, i'd say that having self awareness or the ability to say, "wow that really sucked" is really important as well.

Yeah. That's exactly what I was talking about, when it gets down to the editing part. I should have maybe spelled that out a lot more explicitly, so thanks for adding that in.

It's not just "practice makes perfect" like the post above suggested. You can keep repeating the same crap over and over in a quest to fine tune it and it's still crap. I think it's more like practice interspersed with a lot of the best detached scrutiny you can manage, then another go at it.

Anybody doing any kind of creative work, if you seriously believe every little thing you cough up is golden, you're probably full of shit. Probably never going to get any better, either.


JLE

[neoclassic]

Dude.


Here's a quarter.

Go fix your space bar and shift button.


The occasional misspelled words don't bother me, but if you think run on sentences with no paragraphs or spaces is cool, try reading your own post out loud in one breathe.

:icon_eek: Oops!Sorry about that.

[neoclassic]

The thread is losing its point by the creativity subject but i will write a few last things to clear out my thought about it.
By 'practice',i didnt mean repeating,i meant evolving by moving on for the next one,in some view it is called 'the next crap',until you reach the whole bunch of craps to choose the least shittys of all,not to make them decide about you,to make you decide about you,to use thap crap in a sht project so that you become happy with your shitty life,cos this is a world that the God of composing,Mozart died in poorness and illness,disrespected.
I dont know the rest of you,but for me,the things i create,are my work,which means i spend energy and put a believe in it,like we all are giving for our work,and in any means,disrespecting it is the key to be the biggest shit ever.

[bbkong]

<sigh>


*ahem*



:Roll eyes:

[Goes211]

I feel 2 things already mentioned are key :

- write 30 songs to keep one. Even if you hate the mecanisms involved in popular songwriting, you must understand them to do something different, much like Picasso could draw a perfect classical piece of art but decided to do abstract stuff. I believe songwriting is a craft ; if you don't suck and do it on a regular basis, eventually you start to get better at it. It is a conscious decision to have one part of your brain alert all the time, ready to channel whatever influences you back into songs.

- network 100 times more than you think you should. Actually, it is at least as important as writing songs all the time. This ain't the lottery. It's about increasing your chances, and you have to do it yourself. Just sending stuff to labels won't cut it IMHO. You need to get in touch with folks personally. I wrote this in the CAPE songwriters forum a while ago but it's still relevant here :


I remember this one A&R guy at a major label which I got quite friendly with, who had a desk with PILES of tapes dumped on it. One big mountain of cassettes and CDs. At one end, the new ones (30 to 50) were dumped each day. At the other end, one large trash bin. There was just NO WAY this guy could listen to all the material which came in. Each day he would push a bunch of tapes (totally at random) in the trashbin...and I couldn't help but thinking..."there goes somebody's soul, emotions, hard work, talent, and 2 years of their life." He watched me and said : "Just tell me which one I should listen to. I can't listen to all of them, so what would you do ?"
So I started looking and quickly realized...yup, this was going to be random and totally subjective.
A good picture, a good name, a cool logo, a funny biog...anything which caught my attention.
Which is exactly what he did. His daily time alloted to listen to new stuff each day was less than an hour - and trust me : that IS the reality. So he'd give an extremely brief listen (less than a minute) to 10 or 20 tapes from the pile...totally at random. It certainly taught me a few things about trying to make the song interesting from the first bar... the remainder went straight to the trash. Even if the next Radiohead, U2, Beatles or whoever was in there, they were going to have to get his attention differently.

Today, as a band you're much more likely to draw their attention with a hot website or a busy Myspace page. Show them you've got folks interested in you already, and how you can draw a crowd. As a songwriter it's even less easy because you need to show talent & success to get their attention. So you need to network more to increase your chances. Explore all open songwriting and composing areas : advertising, webdesign, computer games, movies, series, documentaries, etc... You nbever know where success is going to come from.

As a sidenote, I'd say today many folks believe they are songwriters AND performers, when actually they are almost never the best performers for their own songs. Many fail to realize it's OK to sing someone else's tunes, and it's OK not to be the performer of your own songs. These are different crafts, and those who excel at both are very few.

[Bob Olhsson]

Somebody told me years ago that it's all about doing enough homework that the labels come to you and never the other way around. I've seen nothing suggesting that this has changed at all. It's really about getting people out to a show and knocking them out with what you do.

I would put my energy into a video that shows a crowd going nuts. Any idiot can hire David Foster.

[saxplayerz]

Anybody here can help me get these songs sold, come spring?

Why do you need a label? If you you have good tunes can't you sell them online and at gigs?

[bbkong]

This is starting to remind me of that old joke about how you make a million dollars playing jazz. You start with 5 million.

I met Jerry Williams about six months before the Journeyman album came out. It was quite a drive out into the boonies to find him so I could delivery some 15" stacks, (he used them for monitors in his writing lab set up) so he invited me to hang around and have dinner.

While I was there, he got me to throw down some guitar on a few of those tunes, and we talked for hours about many things.

What I learned what that he wrote from a pure emotion standpoint, rarely left the house and had people coming to him for songs. People like Clapton and SRV. There was a landing strip in front of his house. Clapton bitched because he couldn't land his private jet there and had to stop and switch planes, but he came anyway, eventually buying most of the tunes on the Journeyman album from him. I recognized most of the tracks from what I heard in his studio.

After the album came out, EC invited him to a show at the Albert Hall. Mid-show, he invited him out on stage and gave him the mic for about 5 tunes before he continued the show. When he left the stage, Bonnie Raitt was standing in the wings and bought 6 tunes from him on the spot.

Yeah, fairy tale stuff, but he earned it.

I recall when he was playing tunes for me, he pulled every one out of a tall stack of notebooks that were stuffed to the gills with songs. He said for every one he sold, he wrote about a hundred or more.

Also said he'd spent about 6 years in LA doing the network thing. Last I heard, he was a vp for Arista.

I know a few other songwriters, many not as successful, but the one thing they do have in common is hundreds of songs and a constant habit of writing.

This thread has gone on for a couple of pages now, and that seems to be the real theme here.

I think the point's been made.

If you really want to sell songs, you gotta sweat blood for em and write a bazillion or so.

[Aardvark]

...many folks believe they are songwriters AND performers, when actually they are almost never the best performers for their own songs...

Bingo.

If you want to sell songs to a publisher than you better make sure they work when other people sing them.

Duh.

If you really have been networking, why didn't you submit a song to Cape6? All you might have gotten was a free production of one of your tracks that may well have been produced or mixed by a very good contact in the business. Worst you get is a bad cover but at least you get another view of the song.

If you hold the bat to tight you never hit the ball. Loosen the grip and allow the natural talent to sell itself.

If I were in your position, I would get as many folks here as possible to cover one of my tunes... this fits somewhat with what Kenny said about hanging out... this is a 'net hangout but a hang anyway you cut it.

Show prospective publishers that your songs truly are a step above the others. It's easy if they are.


Imagine being able to tell a publisher that the tracks you submitted were put together by talented strangers who felt compelled by your brilliance to offer their time and talent in effort to help your career and give them a gem for their own demo reel.


Forest.

Trees.


Cheers,
Aardvark


:Wink:

[Bob Olhsson]

It's very unusual for a publisher to get songs cut these days. Most "cuts" are a direct result of the writer being in the right place at the right time with the right song. In fact your ASCAP or BMI representative might be of more help than the average music publisher.

[Aardvark]

It's very unusual for a publisher to get songs cut these days. Most "cuts" are a direct result of the writer being in the right place at the right time with the right song. In fact your ASCAP or BMI representative might be of more help than the average music publisher.


True... but a music publisher can see to it that you have a decent, stable income for a few years while you wait for someone to cut tracks of yours. Having one's basic nut covered makes it easier to go out and promote yourself as well as having more time to write more songs.


Cheers,
Aardvark


:Wink:

[Bob Olhsson]

Absolutely and a publisher can also front you the cost of making first rate demos with session musicians and singers.

[dwoz]

Absolutely and a publisher can also front you the cost of making first rate demos with session musicians and singers.

Now, THAT'S an interesting concept.



Maybe we should set something up, where writers can get first-rate demos produced, with session musicians and singers!



we could call it....oh, I dunno.....CAPE!




Hmmmm.....think....think.....think....
dwoz

[Goes211]

Now, THAT'S an interesting concept.

Maybe we should set something up, where writers can get first-rate demos produced, with session musicians and singers!

we could call it....oh, I dunno.....CAPE!

Hmmmm.....think....think.....think....
dwoz

I think you're onto something.
Let's see what we can do.

:D

[Brendo]

four of my bands songs were just played on the local community station interspersed with 15 minutes or so of interview...

[Pancho Ballard]

Maybe we should set something up, where writers can get first-rate demos produced, with session musicians and singers!

First rate? With me on bass? :lol:

Seriously though, this point about for every hit the writer has probably written a hundred more. I often hear bands say that they've written a hundred songs and picked the best 20 to work on for the album. When does it stop being just an idea and becomes a song? These hundred songs, are they just the most minimal of sketches, a few chords, maybe a chorus and a couple of verses or are they complete songs?

The reason I ask is that I find it so hard to just record an acoustic demo and leave it at that but I'm guessing that's what most of the proven songwriters will do, which in turn probably explains why they have the time to write so many songs. Whereas I can spend ages recording a shiny, polished demo they can record one in 5 minutes and move on to another song.

I also expect many of their songs are almost exactly the same in terms of lyrical content and harmonic structure (ahem, Holland, Dozier, Holland anyone?), whereas I can't bear to write a song that sounded like my last one. I suppose I should do, just look at how great the aforementioned HDH were. Yes, they used the same rhymes quite a lot (lonely room, gloom, doom etc.) but damn, they were brilliant!

Well, I've answered my own question. Thank you internet, for being my own private counsellor :D

[zenpool1]

Yeah. That's exactly what I was talking about, when it gets down to the editing part. I should have maybe spelled that out a lot more explicitly, so thanks for adding that in.

It's not just "practice makes perfect" like the post above suggested. You can keep repeating the same crap over and over in a quest to fine tune it and it's still crap. I think it's more like practice interspersed with a lot of the best detached scrutiny you can manage, then another go at it.

Anybody doing any kind of creative work, if you seriously believe every little thing you cough up is golden, you're probably full of shit. Probably never going to get any better, either.


JLE

Eagan, i'd buy you a beer if i could ! :Thumbsup:

Kirk

[daleandtheguitar]

First rate? With me on bass? :lol:

Seriously though, this point about for every hit the writer has probably written a hundred more. I often hear bands say that they've written a hundred songs and picked the best 20 to work on for the album. When does it stop being just an idea and becomes a song? These hundred songs, are they just the most minimal of sketches, a few chords, maybe a chorus and a couple of verses or are they complete songs?

The reason I ask is that I find it so hard to just record an acoustic demo and leave it at that but I'm guessing that's what most of the proven songwriters will do, which in turn probably explains why they have the time to write so many songs. Whereas I can spend ages recording a shiny, polished demo they can record one in 5 minutes and move on to another song.

I also expect many of their songs are almost exactly the same in terms of lyrical content and harmonic structure (ahem, Holland, Dozier, Holland anyone?), whereas I can't bear to write a song that sounded like my last one. I suppose I should do, just look at how great the aforementioned HDH were. Yes, they used the same rhymes quite a lot (lonely room, gloom, doom etc.) but damn, they were brilliant!

Well, I've answered my own question. Thank you internet, for being my own private counsellor :D

I've heard it said that the ear-mark of a great song is when you go away humming the tune, and for this one doesn't need to have a polished production or even multi-instrumentation... the germ of a great song can often be well represented with minimal accompaniment.

That being said... Man - it is fun to find out how far you can carry the fucker!