Mix Critique Requested

[nobby]

Please lend me an ear. Or better yet, both ears!

Thanks in advance.

[link mercifully deep sixed; others further down]

[dikledoux]

Sounds like someone threw a towel over the whole mix. And it sounds like the guy ain't hittin' the drums even if he is. Too much bass guitar, not enough vocals and the double tracking sounds like a way to make up for an unconfident singer. If that's the way the singer sings, tell him he sounds bad ass, pump him up, give him a shot or two of tequila and get him to gut this stuff out on a single track like it's the last thing he'll ever sing. THEN... trash his vocal up a bit somehow and get it way the hell in front, warts and all.

Also... something's gotta happen with the guitar parts. More or different guits on the choruses, SOMETHING. They're the same all the way through the song.

Christ, I'm fulla myself tonight. :lol:

dik

[nobby]

Sounds like someone threw a towel over the whole mix.

EQ is the hardest thing for me to get right. But I could use something more specific.
the double tracking sounds like a way to make up for an unconfident singer.

Listen to John Lennon on the early Beatles records (then again, maybe not :grin: ) All double tracked, no lack of confidence.

And whereas my vox may not compare favorably with his, I'd sung this a thousand times, and guarantee no lack of confidence. Likewise, the drums are being hit hard. I just have a special gift for butchering a mix. :lol:

Now if only I can get some more specific feedback maybe I can get rid of this towel ;-)

[nobby]

Alrighty.

Towel:

I turned down the bass guitar and the drum trax. Cut lows and some low mids in the drums. Rhy guits were a bit "honky"; EQ'd them a bit.

Vox:

Cranked up the lead vox a bit. I was confident, and I drink enough as it is :grin:

Chorus:

D'OH! Otek lectured me on the same thing last year. I added an acoustic guitar track (last of 16 tracks -- don't ask for a horn section!)

I was thinking of EQing the acoustic guitar so you could just hear the pick on the strings, but I listened to it, and just left it as it was, no EQ, and put it right up the center. It does make the chorus jump out (that and I raised the vox).

To my ear, it's a wholesale improvement. Thanks, Dik :Thumbsup:

Additional suggestions or comments are welcome.

Warmth of the Sunshine 011907 (http://www.theconveyors.com/audio/-Warmth011907.m3u)

[subvocal]

Nobby
Listening to the revised version. It sounds like a well balanced mix to me, bass wise, vox wise. (you have an excellant voice btw)
Love the lyrics, love the break. This reminds me, a bit, of someone I used to write with (vocally and lyricly -sp?)

Drums need something in my humble and ignorant opinion. a little revereb maybe? When I mix stuff I like to pan the drums as if I were in the room with them listening to them. a little to the left and right of center. Maybe they just need to come up a hair and some more eq-ing?

Very cool song!

sv

[dikledoux]

Cranked up the lead vox a bit. I was confident, and I drink enough as it is :grin:
:lol:

This is MUCH better to my ears. A TON more energy to the song now. And your vocals sound better now that they're more up-front. Can I add a couple more cents from hackville?

As far as the muffled sound of things, I hear a pretty substantial amount of stuff around 150 hz from the drums and also from the bass. But the drums are the worst offenders. If you can make a pretty good size dip in that area, I think you'll find that the sounds get some more teeth to them and you'll start to hear some of the hi-end detail without having to boost the highs.

But if you cut TOO wide around 150, you'll start to just lose some of the bass guitar info - so go after the drums first and then see what the bass needs after.

dik

[nobby]

Nobby
Listening to the revised version. It sounds like a well balanced mix to me, bass wise, vox wise. (you have an excellant voice btw)
Love the lyrics, love the break. This reminds me, a bit, of someone I used to write with (vocally and lyricly -sp?)

Drums need something in my humble and ignorant opinion. a little revereb maybe? When I mix stuff I like to pan the drums as if I were in the room with them listening to them. a little to the left and right of center. Maybe they just need to come up a hair and some more eq-ing?

Very cool song!

sv

Thanks, Sub V!

Reverb in the drums? I thought you were totally against reverb! :Wink:

Actually, the drums and bass guitar are the only things that are bone dry. I figured if I only used a little reverb on the drums, the tails would be masked by the guitars.

EQ on the drums... Hmm... do the toms sound too much like Moe hitting Curley in the gut with a hammer? :grin:
I could mess with it, but I think I need somthing more specific in terms of frequencies. I know it isn't perfect, but sometimes when I improve things they wind up worse :Confused:

[nobby]

:lol:

This is MUCH better to my ears. A TON more energy to the song now. And your vocals sound better now that they're more up-front. Can I add a couple more cents from hackville?

As far as the muffled sound of things, I hear a pretty substantial amount of stuff around 150 hz from the drums and also from the bass. But the drums are the worst offenders. If you can make a pretty good size dip in that area, I think you'll find that the sounds get some more teeth to them and you'll start to hear some of the hi-end detail without having to boost the highs.

But if you cut TOO wide around 150, you'll start to just lose some of the bass guitar info - so go after the drums first and then see what the bass needs after.

dik

Thanks, I'll work on that tommorrow. I think I have to do another drums mix and try to weed out the offending frequencies at the source. It was a while since I mixed the drums, and I may have gone hog wild on the low end. The toms in particular are suspect.

[dikledoux]

The toms in particular are suspect.
I hear it on the kick, too. It goes "bwoop" instead of "Pumph".

That's gonna look really retarded in print.

dik

[subvocal]

i laughed.



yes the toms especially



I use echo now instead of reverb


when I record drums I usually end up cutting out 170 - 250 (somewhere in there) on the toms. at a pretty tight q

sometimes i make drums sound okay but mostly its a real struggle for someone who doesn't know much, like me...

really like your vocals..

[nobby]

i laughed.



yes the toms especially



I use echo now instead of reverb


On drums? :icon_eek:

You weren't by any chance Phil Spectors cell mate :D


when I record drums I usually end up cutting out 170 - 250 (somewhere in there) on the toms. at a pretty tight q

To add to the challenge, I tracked the drumz, and there were a couple of dodgy issues there... but of the drums I'd tracked for this album, these were among the better ones :Confused:

really like your vocals..

Stop it :grin:

I'd return the compliment, but you know what peeps will say:

"Get a room, you two!" :lol:

[nobby]

I hear it on the kick, too. It goes "bwoop" instead of "Pumph".

That's gonna look really retarded in print.

dik

Don't worry about it. Pretty much everything I type looks retarded in print.

This drums mix has better close mic'ing. The earlier mix sounds more "pumph" to me ( I call it "thud") but when I cut the lows (around 100 Hz, I think) which I did on the last mix, it isn't masking the boink as well. The click comes out also (wooden beater) which doesn't seem as genre appropriate on this rather retro Rock & Roll tune than on the other material.

Anyway, I should have time to experiment with it tommorrow.

[EyreSpace]

The acoustic takes up a lot of frequency space, and it's too loud. Cut everything below 200hz.

The toms and bass guitar are fighting for the same space. The tom heads sound tired

Likewise the electric guitars and vocals are masking each other.

Listen to what happens to the bass when the toms are struck, or how the guitars seems ducked when the vocals are on.

I think the snare and overheads need to be much louder, the bass quieter still and maybe a boost around 2-4 k to bring out some attack on both the toms and the bass guitar.

Rough sounding edit on the last shot...

[nobby]

Alrighty.

I cut the lows in the drum tracks, and I high passed the acoustic guitar @ 200 Hz (it's a jumbo flattop).

The first thing I noticed was that the (electric) rhythm guitars sound brighter and better defined. They jump right out at ya.

Also, the toms don't sound like Moe slugging Curly in the gut any more.

Warmth of the Sunshine 012007 (http://www.theconveyors.com/audio/ACHILLES-Warmth012007.m3u)

[EyreSpace]

Much better balance. A couple of things to try, add a little 225 to the snare, narrow Q, and a little 600-700 on the vocal. I'm enjoying this song, thanks!

[nobby]

Okay, I got a chance to try your suggestions out.

I immediately got what you meant when I added 225 to the snare. I added a sunstantial amount (9 dB, digital -- Ren EQ) because the snare is being picked up by the overheads and 2 room mics. I also added a little 900Hz. I also took off the 3400 I had previously added to the kik for presence b/c it didn't seem appropriate for this style of rock, plus this was a wooden beater.
I'll be glad when I no longer have to do a new drums submix in order to change anything on an individual drum or two.

Again, with the vox, I could see what you were getting at. I boosted 630 3dB with a medium Q and the vox was no longer fighting the guitars.

Thanks, Eyre. I hope this is ready for the ME or close to it, as I have more material to improve upon, and I'm a few years behind deadline.

Warmth of the Sunshine 012507 (http://www.theconveyors.com/audio/THE_CONVEYORS-Warmth012507.m3u)

[Molly's Lips]

I think the chorus is crying out for a shaker, but that's just me.:grin:

[nobby]

You can cry out for a shaker all you want :grin:

I've used up all 16 tracks. I think the acoustic guitar during the chorus satisfies the need (at least for me) for add'l percussion with the washboard-like sound of the strings being strummed peeking through.

[Molly's Lips]

What, you can't bounce it?

































shikachikashikachikashikachikashikachikashikachika shikachikashikachikashikachikashikachikashikachika shikachika

[nobby]

What, you can't bounce it?

shikachikashikachikashikachikashikachikashikachika shikachikashikachikashikachikashikachikashikachika shikachika

You're pretty persistant, aren't you! :lol:

I think that while it wouldn't hurt, it will take more than one anonymous internet poster to convince me it's necessary. I'd have to, first of all, get a shaker. Either plunk down my $10 at the local music shop or get an empty beer can, go to the shore, get some sand, sterilize the sand, put it in the beer can, and cover the hole with duct tape.

The record it, mix it with the acoustic guitar track in real time, and if the level was slightly off when I hear it in the mix, mix it again, etc.

Bit of a PITA, and I have other stuff to work on. If you really feel strongly about the shaker :grin: get some others to sign your petition. Or bribe me :grin:

[John Suitcase]

OK, I listened and in my 'expert' option, I like mix 2 better than mix 3. I think there may be some problems in the low end, but the vocals sound better, I like the top end of the drums better, and the guitars, too.

If you can get back to that mix, then just roll out some 400 in the bass and kick, I think you're there. I mean, it's not a modern sound, but it works for the track. It's just more listenable, if that makes sense.

Very cool, good job!

Ok, and I agree the shaker would be cool, but I would use a Guiaro..

Schwawck chk chk, schwawck chk chk...

[nobby]

OK, I listened and in my 'expert' option, I like mix 2 better than mix 3. I think there may be some problems in the low end, but the vocals sound better, I like the top end of the drums better, and the guitars, too.

Basically, the difference between the two mixes, aside from adding some 225Hz and a little 900 to the snare, which I don't think made a lot of difference since it was watered down by the overheads, was to add 0.5 dB of 210 to the drums mix (from -4dB to -3.5) and add 3 db of 630dB to the vox. I'm going to change it back to -4dB on the drums, and try 1.5 @ 630 on the vox vs. the 3 dB boost the second mix has.

If you can get back to that mix, then just roll out some 400 in the bass and kick, I think you're there. I mean, it's not a modern sound, but it works for the track. It's just more listenable, if that makes sense.

It's definitely a retro feel, that song in particular. Again, with the kik, I'd scooped out some lower mids in the individual kik track, I currently have the drums mix scooped at 215 and 445. I don't think I want to remix the drums yet again. I don't think I want to add the 3400 to the kik again (see my previous post.)

Ok, and I agree the shaker would be cool, but I would use a Guiaro..

Schwawck chk chk, schwawck chk chk...

You guys are killing me :lol:

Great, now I have Big Brother and the Holding Company's Combination of the Two going through my head.

Ah, well, it could be worse :Coolio:

[nobby]

OK, I listened and in my 'expert' option, I like mix 2 better than mix 3. I think there may be some problems in the low end, but the vocals sound better, I like the top end of the drums better, and the guitars, too.

Basically, the difference between the two mixes, aside from adding some 225Hz and a little 900 to the snare, which I don't think made a lot of difference since it was watered down by the overheads and room mics, was to add 0.5 dB of 210 to the drums mix (from -4dB to -3.5) and add 3 db of 630dB to the vox. I'm going to change it back to -4dB on the drums, and try 1.5 @ 630 on the vox vs. the 3 dB boost the second mix has.

If you can get back to that mix, then just roll out some 400 in the bass and kick, I think you're there. I mean, it's not a modern sound, but it works for the track. It's just more listenable, if that makes sense.

It's definitely a retro feel, that song in particular. Again, with the kik, I'd scooped out some lower mids in the individual kik track, I currently have the drums mix scooped at 215 and 445. I don't think I want to remix the drums yet again. I don't think I want to add the 3400 to the kik again (see my previous post.) I'll fiddle with the 400 a bit on the drums mix and bass, and see what happens.

Ok, and I agree the shaker would be cool, but I would use a Guiaro..

Schwawck chk chk, schwawck chk chk...

You guys are killing me :lol:

Great, now I have Big Brother and the Holding Company's Combination of the Two going through my head.

Ah, well, it could be worse :Coolio:

[tptman]

Uh, you guys are close, but I'll tell you what that chorus needs:

Tptman Chorus Remix (http://petergreenmusic.com/nob/achilles_tptman.mp3).

[John Suitcase]

Uh, you guys are close, but I'll tell you what that chorus needs:

Tptman Chorus Remix (http://petergreenmusic.com/nob/achilles_tptman.mp3).


Of course! I totally forgot about the golden cowbell...

I think a slightly smaller, more metallic tone would work ;-)

[Molly's Lips]

Nobby, please accept my deepest apologies for starting this.

[nobby]

Uh, you guys are close, but I'll tell you what that chorus needs:

Tptman Chorus Remix (http://petergreenmusic.com/nob/achilles_tptman.mp3).

:lol:
"Live from New York, it's Saturday Night!"

I'm surprised no one has mentioned tambo. I actually have one... somewhere.