Sold the 6505. Got a Marshall JVM. I think this amp rocks!

[Mo Facta]

Honestly, I'm not a Harshall fan at all, usually, but the 50W JVM really blew me away today. So we got it. I really think it's way more versatile than the Peavey. Still has the core Marshall sound but it's a good one.

Thoughts?

Cheers :)

[Knastratt]

I'm planning to go up to the kitchen. What should I have?

Nice purchase, BTW!

[lebouche]

I'm planning to go up to the kitchen. What should I have?




Sex?

[Knastratt]

Sex?

I'm flattered, but I prefer women.

[Tommy Fobia]

Honestly, I'm not a Harshall fan at all, usually, but the 50W JVM really blew me away today. So we got it. I really think it's way more versatile than the Peavey. Still has the core Marshall sound but it's a good one.

Thoughts?

Cheers :)

Yeah, a band brought one in a month ago. I really liked it - however, I ended up blending it with a 5150MKI and MKII. It worked because it can produce fairly similar tones to a 5150 albeit with a different midrange flavour.

I couldn't get rid of my 5150s though, they are just far too useful to me, although I'd definitely bring a JVM into the family. :Thumbsup:

[Mo Facta]

Interesting. I could see how the 5150 would fill in the midrange. If I could have both, I would, but this is real life with a finite budget.

:D

Cheers :)

[Mo Facta]

I'm flattered, but I prefer women.

In the kitchen? Adventurous...

[Cary Chilton]

Hey brutha, well these modern multi channel Marshalls with a gizallion knobs isn't my thing....you gotta know that all the R&D and component costs wrapped up in that could well been better money spent elsewhere.... However, you have a marshall with its style transformers, so the sound your looking for should be somewhat there.

If I may, replace the stock tubes immediately ( YUCK) with ARS Chinese 12ax7's and for the phase inverter (last one on the right) order a EI NOS Yugoslavian 12ax7. The difference will be night and day better.... Also, if you have a decent amp guy there email Sozo Amplification ask him what modern caps can be easily replaced in your JVM and buy them. Again, the difference will be huge. Do those things and your JVM may just surprise your friends. ;) Zoesch may have better suggestions for your amp forthcoming....

[Brendo]

One of the guys from Opeth uses a JVM. It works.



Cary... have you ever PLAYED through a JVM, to be offering such "sage" advice?

[Knastratt]

In the kitchen? Adventurous...

There's NOTHING like mounting a sauce while having a nice lady around. Or was it the other way around? http://www.mixerized.com/files/icon_scratchchin.gif

[Tommy Fobia]

Hey brutha, well these modern multi channel Marshalls with a gizallion knobs isn't my thing....you gotta know that all the R&D and component costs wrapped up in that could well been better money spent elsewhere.... However, you have a marshall with its style transformers, so the sound your looking for should be somewhat there.

If I may, replace the stock tubes immediately ( YUCK) with ARS Chinese 12ax7's and for the phase inverter (last one on the right) order a EI NOS Yugoslavian 12ax7. The difference will be night and day better.... Also, if you have a decent amp guy there email Sozo Amplification ask him what modern caps can be easily replaced in your JVM and buy them. Again, the difference will be huge. Do those things and your JVM may just surprise your friends. ;) Zoesch may have better suggestions for your amp forthcoming....

The stock JVM I used sounded great. And I hate the majority of modern marshalls.

The stock tubes in Marshalls are nothing special, but they are far from horrendous. Sure, better tubes would make the amp sound better, but making sure the amp is biased properly in my opinion is far more important.

Like I said - I used one stock (after biasing it properly) and I thought it rocked.

[Brendo]

Which is why I'm asking if he's played through one, which I doubt he has.

[Cary Chilton]

Which is why I'm asking if he's played through one, which I doubt he has.


LOL Brendo you are funny man.... Is the JVM a hard commodity to come by??? Of course, I have played through one and I think nearly model and year Marshall has come out with since 1969. I say nearly : many 50 watt heads from 1969 -81 I have not played through, the very early 65 66 JTM I haven't played through..I haven't played through an early bluesbreaker, I haven't played a 100 watt Jub, or 81,88,89 -50 or 100 watt JCM 800, ..that is about it... oh sorry the I haven't played much of the Marshall Rack stuff either.... But yeah, I have played my fair share ;) Have you ever played an original unmolested 68 plexi? or 69 metal face lead or an unmolested 1969 supertrem? I highly recommend trying one. THOSE amps are hard to come by in original shape. ;)

[Brendo]

ok - but you dont think that the jvm sounds good stock?

i think they sound fucking great. just wondering why you feel the need to do all that shit to them.

[Cary Chilton]

BRENDO, changing the tubes is a big deal? MARSHALL STOCK TUBES SUCK COCK MAN! With the help of Dave Friedman -Arguably America's Top Marshall expert- I found the best current production tubes for Marshalls ---- albeit, NOS Telefunken's are fucking great too at about 100 bucks a pop.

The JVM is great, better than the Mesa Rectifier shit, Krank etc...
Changing the components to better ones would make the amp more organic.

Modding a 5150 -as I stated much to the criticism of Zoesch- would sound as good as the JVM -but voice slightly different (different IRON). However, the JVM with upgraded mustards would prove better still...

I would favor a vintage (1987?) Jubilee over the JVM.... OR a Vintage JCM800 years 82-83 OR JMP 77-79. Having said that, my 1969 100watt supertrem in comparison to the preferred alternates listen, NO contest. ;)

[Brendo]

right but none of those amps sounds anything like the jvm anyway?

can't the jvm stand on its own feet instead of trying to make it sound like something it's not?

this is exactly the same as the 5150 thing, why does that need to be modded to be like a marshall, why not just buy a freaking marshall.

why buy a jvm to mod it? buy a jvm if you enjoy the sound. if that means stock tubes, so be it.

[Cary Chilton]

well that is why we disagree I guess... I love chasing that 5% or 10% diminishing returns thing... because I FEEL the difference

[Tommy Fobia]

Modding a 5150 -as I stated much to the criticism of Zoesch- would sound as good as the JVM -but voice slightly different (different IRON).


BETTER? WORSE? Its all subjective. Its also entirely dependent on what you are using the amp for and even that is totally subjective.

But this is what I REALLY don't fucking get. Modding a 5150 so it sounds only slightly different to a JVM? Just buy a fucking JVM. Yeah, they are both modern sounding amps and they have some similarities in their tone, but they ARE DIFFERENT AMPS. Inherently they will sound different. That is infact a VERY GOOD THING.

And marshall stock tubes are not great, but they are FAR from unusable. Seriously. They won't make a GREAT amp sound terrible.

[Cary Chilton]

modding a 5150 could easily make it sound close to JVM at certain settings (or both amps) ..if one wanted to. Modding an amp, isn't that pricy guys, unless some fuckhead is overcharging you...the components are pretty cheap. WHY do you think I suggested it.
Marshall tubes are useable and that is about it -imo.

Why mod a 5150 or the newer Marshall stuff? It will improve the sound in a some way :more pleasing highs or mids...5%? 7%? Don't give a fuck about that? Fine. Each to his own right?

[Tommy Fobia]

modding a 5150 could easily make it sound close to JVM at certain settings (or both amps) ..if one wanted to.

But WHY THE FUCK would I buy a 5150 if I wanted it to sound like a JVM? I really don't understand why the hell you would buy one amp only to turn it into another, especially since they go for around the same kind of money.

As it happens, I do any work that needs to be done to my amps. I am well aware of the costs involved.

[Cary Chilton]

But WHY THE FUCK would I buy a 5150 if I wanted it to sound like a JVM?

..........your missing the point.

[Tommy Fobia]

..........your missing the point.

How am I missing the point?

Its what you said.

I just don't understand why you think that modding a 5150 to sound like a JVM is a good idea.

[otek]

modding a 5150 could easily make it sound close to JVM at certain settings (or both amps)

Sorry but I will have to call absolute bullshit on that one.

HOW would you make two amps with different circuitry layout and basic design sound anything like each other? And even if you could, WHY on earth would you want to engage in such a science project?

I bet you the modification costs, if performed by a qualified amp technician, would run you a good portion of the money towards a used specimen of the kind you are trying to emulate.

And let's not divert the topic by saying you want to "chase those extra 5-7% of better tone" because that's NOT what we were talking about here, this is about making it SOUND LIKE a JVM.

I can tell you if you went to Cesar Diaz or Henry Yee or Mark Cameron with this request, the would (if they were in a polite mood) suggest you GET a JVM instead.



otek

[Cary Chilton]

Sorry but I will have to call absolute bullshit on that one.

HOW would you make two amps with different circuitry layout and basic design sound anything like each other? And even if you could, WHY on earth would you want to engage in such a science project?

I bet you the modification costs, if performed by a qualified amp technician, would run you a good portion of the money towards a used specimen of the kind you are trying to emulate.

And let's not divert the topic by saying you want to "chase those extra 5-7% of better tone" because that's NOT what we were talking about here, this is about making it SOUND LIKE a JVM.

I can tell you if you went to Cesar Diaz or Henry Yee or Mark Cameron with this request, the would (if they were in a polite mood) suggest you GET a JVM instead.



otek

Mark Cameron is a good guy and has been friendly everytime I have contacted him ;) I don't know about the others though....

I was continuing a comment that I made on Mo's first thread about his 5150. Sure the JVM is FAR more versatile than the 5150. However, Mo's major complaint about the amp was that it was too fizzy in the highs. He said he like Marshalls, too. It seemed generally he liked the amp besides that. SO, the cheapest thing would have been to mod his original 5150. In my experience, it cost me 90 USD, the fizzies were gone and it sounded like a more recent JCM800 50 watt. Not bad for 90 fucking bucks huh? Obviously, Mo, who seemed to appreciate this advice, couldn't find someone locally to do the work-otherwise I bet for 90 bucks that he would have at least tried. Having said that, the JVM can be dialled to sound like a JCM800-900 DSL2000 and a few other settings. That is my point, nothing more, nothing less. I am OK, with anyones disagreement. I prefer my 69 super trem anyway.... ;)

[otek]

the cheapest thing would have been to mod his original 5150.

Sure it would, if he can live with it sounding like a 5150. Because it still will, just like if you would replace all tubes and caps in your '69 it would still sound like a '69 Marshall, not like a Hiwatt.

the fizzies were gone and it sounded like a more recent JCM800 50 watt.....

That is my point, nothing more, nothing less.

modding a 5150 could easily make it sound close to JVM at certain settings

Why mod a 5150 or the newer Marshall stuff? It will improve the sound in a some way :more pleasing highs or mids

Changing the components to better ones would make the amp more organic.

replace the stock tubes immediately

Well.... I am still a bit fuzzy on WHAT EXACTLY is your point. It keeps changing.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

......... deleted because I am done.

[Zoesch]

But WHY THE FUCK would I buy a 5150 if I wanted it to sound like a JVM? I really don't understand why the hell you would buy one amp only to turn it into another, especially since they go for around the same kind of money.

As it happens, I do any work that needs to be done to my amps. I am well aware of the costs involved.

That was the question I asked on the other thread that brought the ire of the clueless one.

See, it's not that bad a question, I'm not gonna buy a focusrite and mod it with Neve parts in the vain attempt to make it sound like a Neve, for that I buy a Neve.

Likewise with an amp, and the point that biasing is far more important than the name of the tube is one that people more often than not (Be it due to lack of knowledge about electronics or because they tend to fall for that line of thought that throwing money at an inexistent problem might fix it) tend to forget.

Once you actually look at the mods done on most amps 99% of the tonal change comes from changes in plate voltage biasing, not from changing to hand wound carbon resistors or moving from ceramic to tantalum caps or some other bizarre shit like that, because let's be frank here, if your new caps can have .000000001% ripple on MHz signals vs. 0.0001% ripple you won't be able to hear the difference.

Which is why I find these threads and the whole "Buy shit and try to make it sound like a Marshall" schtick so retarded. Ohm's law couldn't care about the brand and make of your newfangled components.

[Cary Chilton]

...biasing which is very easy to do with a bias king is something you can do with temporary suckass tubes or GEM tubes...as it is fast and easy. However, if your tubes sound like tin, little good it will do you.
So it is more important know and find which 12ax7s sound best for your break up, next to mentioned which power tubes.... and that could be many options and combo's. I am surprised you aren't seeing that Z...

[Zoesch]

...biasing which is very easy to do with a bias king is something you can do with temporary suckass tubes or GEM tubes...as it is fast and easy. However, if your tubes sound like tin, little good it will do you.
So it is more important know and find which 12ax7s sound best for your break up, next to mentioned which power tubes.... and that could be many options and combo's. I am surprised you aren't seeing that Z...

So which electronic quality determines that your tubes sound like tin? Is it the plate thickness? The gas density? Filament gauge?

As opposed to looking at the transfer curve of the tube and figuring out that an extra volt or two will take you out from the linear transfer zone and into saturation.

Seriously, tubes are some of the dumbest pieces of electronics in the world, only bested by resistors in terms of simplicity, whoever thinks that there's black magic around tube selection is bound to be seriously dissappointed.

[Dave Perry]

Never was disappointed in short plate Mullards over any other preamp tube I've tried for guitar.

I can definitely hear a difference between tubes.

There's many bits of audiophile hooey out there but careful tube selection isn't one of them.

[Zoesch]

You can hear the difference between different kinds of tubes, however, the difference between different brands of the same tube are, in fact... negligible.

Otherwise, they wouldn't work as direct replacement... so yeah, you will hear a difference between an 6L6, EL34 or 12AX7 but you won't really hear the difference between two 12AX7 unless one of them happens to be damaged or worn.

[Cary Chilton]

So which electronic quality determines that your tubes sound like tin? Is it the plate thickness? The gas density? Filament gauge?

Who knows? I don't. I just know what I hear.




Seriously, tubes are some of the dumbest pieces of electronics in the world, only bested by resistors in terms of simplicity, .....

Dumbest? I don't think so.... inefficient ? Yes. Better sounding than resistors by far. You can't hear it, you never will and it is pointless arguing it here. ;)


..whoever thinks that there's black magic around tube selection is bound to be seriously dissappointed.
Black Magic? I don't know much about BLACK MAGIC, but I do know different brands, years produced and in what factory they were made,makes a substantial difference on tone, saturation and compression in 12ax7's. You already acknowledged what I said about power tubes, so I won't address that again.

[otek]

I will agree the difference is negligible compared to proper bias. I can definitely hear differences between tubes, but they're nowhere near as substantial as, say, altering the gain staging of the amp.

Changing components (like caps) is playing the lottery because component tolerances on the old Marshall amps were rather permissive - it is those differences that make for the widely disparate character of serially produced amp specimens like the 800 series. I.e. they make the "magical" specimens as well as the pure dogs.

Dumbest? I don't think so.... inefficient ? Yes. Better sounding than resistors by far. You can't hear it, you never will and it is pointless arguing it here.

For the record, I believe Zoesch meant dumb as in "simple in terms of construction".

You also cannot compare tubes to resistors ("Better sounding than resistors by far") since they are completely different components with completely different circuitry functions.



otek

[Zoesch]

Yep, we're arguing about glorified light bulbs... oh dear... :lol:

[Cary Chilton]

You also cannot compare tubes to resistors ("Better sounding than resistors by far") since they are completely different components with completely different circuitry functions.
otek

I am not comparing the construction of a tube to a resistors Otek. hehe I am and can compare the sound of tubes to resistors....tubes are better sounding than resistors by far... oh did I forget IMO ?

[Brendo]

You also cannot compare tubes to resistors ("Better sounding than resistors by far") since they are completely different components with completely different circuitry functions.

Gee, these noodles sure do taste better than that television set!

[otek]

tubes are better sounding than resistors by far...

I don't know what to say to that...

Uh... so how do you rate the sound of a potentiometer? Better or worse than a tube?


otek

[Pimp-X]

oh did I forget IMO ?

No, i'd say it's worse than that. I'd say you've forgotten everything you've ever learned.

[Cary Chilton]

I don't know what to say to that...

Uh... so how do you rate the sound of a potentiometer? Better or worse than a tube?


otek

ha ha .... tube guitar amps don't sound better than a solid state guitar amp?

[otek]

ha ha .... tube guitar amps don't sound better than a solid state guitar amp?

I don't recall that being the question.

You said a resistor sounds better than a tube, so I asked you how you rate a potentiometer? Better or worse sounding than a tube?


otek

[Tommy Fobia]

This thread has just got surreal.

Cary.


Firstly: Looking at some of the threads you have posted recently I can only conclude that you seem to think that everything fits into a definitive hierarchy of Better, Best, Worse. You don't seem to realise that diversity is not necessarily gauged in this way.

As it happens, there are some tonal and performance variations between different brands of the same tube type, but that DOESN'T mean that they need to be organised into Worst/Worser/Better/Best/Bestist/Bestistbestist. Careful selection is important and diversity is a good thing.

As a hypothetical example, the JJ which sounds too dark in your Marshall may sound great in my 5150. The Electro-harmonics that sounds too bright in my 5150 may sound great in your Marshall. That dark tone I get from my 5150 might not work for a southern rock record, but your marshall may be perfect. The tech-metal project however might need that 5150 midrange. Then you neglect to bias one of the amps and it never sounds quite as good. I know this is a simplistic hypothesis, but can you see what I mean?

Secondly: Saying that a tube is better than a resistor is either bat-shit crazy, or very telling of your fundamental lack of knowledge relating to electronics.

Considering this, I would be extremely worried about you poking around inside your amp with a bias king.

[Cary Chilton]

I don't recall that being the question.

You said a resistor sounds better than a tube, so I asked you how you rate a potentiometer? Better or worse sounding than a tube?


otek

the 500k pot in my guitar ? Yeah, it is Way cool man, the "Bestistbestist"...
Anyway, I simply have the opinion tube amps sound better than solid state amps... this thread is about guitar amps, so please don't generalize....



the JJ which sounds too dark in your Marshall may sound great in my 5150. The Electro-harmonics that sounds too bright in my 5150 may sound great in your Marshall. That dark tone I get from my 5150 might not work for a southern rock record, but your marshall may be perfect. The tech-metal project however might need that 5150 midrange. Then you neglect to bias one of the amps and it never sounds quite as good. I know this is a simplistic hypothesis, but can you see what I mean?

Variety is great. True. Everyone needs to find what is right for them. However, what one might think it is GREAT sounding tube in their Marshall might could easily change in favor for something else. It could be night and day better or just different, not better....

Secondly: Saying that a tube is better than a resistor is either bat-shit crazy, or very telling of your fundamental lack of knowledge relating to electronics.

Regarding, overdriven guitar sounds? Sure I feel tube amps are much better. Some makers of some well known boutique pedal said told me that solid state pedals, amps will never sound as good as a great tube amp. I agree. You are right, my knowledge in electronics is very little as I have never studied.
I am guessing your knowledge of electronics is vast. Not mine, but I can use a bias king. :)

[Tommy Fobia]

the 500k pot in my guitar ? Yeah, it is Way cool man, the "Bestistbestist"...
Anyway, I simply have the opinion tube amps sound better than solid state amps... this thread is about guitar amps, so please don't generalize....




Variety is great. True. Everyone needs to find what is right for them. However, what one might think it is GREAT sounding tube in their Marshall might could easily change in favor for something else. It could be night and day better or just different, not better....



Regarding, overdriven guitar sounds? Sure I feel tube amps are much better. Some makers of some well known boutique pedal said told me that solid state pedals, amps will never sound as good as a great tube amp. I agree. You are right, my knowledge in electronics is very little as I have never studied.
I am guessing your knowledge of electronics is vast. Not mine, but I can use a bias king. :)


Hangonhangonhangon.

Just a little nugget of information for you here Cary: Tube amps have resistors in them.

[Cary Chilton]

hehe really? I guess next time, I will need to get very specific and say : a tube-less guitar amp. ;)

[otek]

hehe really? I guess next time, I will need to get very specific and say : a tube-less guitar amp. ;)

Are you referring to a tube-less guitar amp with or without resistors?


otek

[Brendo]

Hmm. I wonder if one wanted to take this to the extreme, if one could socket all the resistors in one's amp and swap out different ones to get the right tones.

[otek]

It would be one large amp.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

Are you referring to a tube-less guitar amp with or without resistors?


otek

hehe

[Brendo]

whats so funny? its a valid question.

[Tommy Fobia]

It would be one large amp.


otek

And probably very unreliable... It would only take ONE of these thousands of sockets to corrode over time to kill the amp.

[Zoesch]

hehe

Nervous?

Seriously, you made one large fundamental mistake (Which is quite OCD-like) in which you talked in absolutes about tube amps sounding better than solid state amps ALL THE TIME.

And that, is one heck of a lie. How do you quantify the solid state amp, was it a FET design? a Bipolar Junction design? Was it a Darlington configuration or a single power transistor? Was it Opamp based? Seriously... too many variables here.

It's like I've just gone back to 2001 where everbody was crazy to get a tube pre, even if it was a poorly biased 12AX7 one to get "warmth"

I think it'll do you a world of good to actually study some electronics, no need to become an EE but you certainly lack the most fundamental and basic of electronic and circuit theory NECESSARY to survive as an AE.

[clicktrack]

I think it'll do you a world of good to actually study some electronics



Is there a plugin for that?

[Pimp-X]

Is there a plugin for that?

I doubt it, but I am willing to bet there's a terrible instructional video...

[gonzo-x]

just buy a Pod XT and be done with it.


:grin:

[dwoz]

I think it'll do you a world of good to actually study some electronics, no need to become an EE but you certainly lack the most fundamental and basic of electronic and circuit theory NECESSARY to survive as an AE.


I completely disagree.

Someone like Cary can (and does) have highly nuanced, fine appreciation and opinion about the aesthetics of guitar amplifiers.



Where he goes off the rails, is when he starts opining about causality.


I would argue, that a small-to-medium background in EE stuff, is potentially MUCH more dangerous than none at all.


dwoz

[Tommy Fobia]

I completely disagree.

Someone like Cary can (and does) have highly nuanced, fine appreciation and opinion about the aesthetics of guitar amplifiers.



Where he goes off the rails, is when he starts opining about causality.


I would argue, that a small-to-medium background in EE stuff, is potentially MUCH more dangerous than none at all.


dwoz

I totally agree, I think Cary's Marshall is killer. However, I do think that he sometimes has a strange (bordering on surreal) way of rationalising and expressing his opinions.

This isn't a dig at Cary, I think he probably needs a bit more knowledge about how his amp works, especially if he's poking around inside it.

[Dave Perry]

As it happens, there are some tonal and performance variations between different brands of the same tube type, but that DOESN'T mean that they need to be organised into Worst/Worser/Better/Best/Bestist/Bestistbestist. Careful selection is important and diversity is a good thing.

As a hypothetical example, the JJ which sounds too dark in your Marshall may sound great in my 5150. The Electro-harmonics that sounds too bright in my 5150 may sound great in your Marshall. That dark tone I get from my 5150 might not work for a southern rock record, but your marshall may be perfect. The tech-metal project however might need that 5150 midrange. Then you neglect to bias one of the amps and it never sounds quite as good. I know this is a simplistic hypothesis, but can you see what I mean?

Secondly: Saying that a tube is better than a resistor is either bat-shit crazy, or very telling of your fundamental lack of knowledge relating to electronics.

Considering this, I would be extremely worried about you poking around inside your amp with a bias king.

I think he meant transistor. I think he also said he goes to a tech for mods and servicing of his amps.

And I'll second that different brands, years of manufacture, etc. of the same tube type can sound different. Lots of people who use tube gear agree, which is part of why there is a hot market for NOS tubes (it's not just because they last longer, though that is part of the appeal).

I reject that everyone who thinks the Mullard EL-34 or the RCA black plate 6V6 are sonically superior tubes compared to others of the same type are just hallucinating.

[Tommy Fobia]

I think he meant transistor. I think he also said he goes to a tech for mods and servicing of his amps.

And I'll second that different brands, years of manufacture, etc. of the same tube type can sound different. Lots of people who use tube gear agree, which is part of why there is a hot market for NOS tubes (it's not just because they last longer, though that is part of the appeal).

I reject that everyone who thinks the Mullard EL-34 or the RCA black plate 6V6 are sonically superior tubes compared to others of the same type are just hallucinating.

I'm sure he does mean transistor. As far as I'm concerned anyone who goes NEAR the insides of a tube amp with a bias probe is dicing with fate if they can confuse components.

My point regarding different brands of tubes is not that they all sound the same. In the context of an earlier post regarding the JVM, I said that a stock marshall tube will NOT make a great sounding amp suck. There are bigger fish to fry regarding guitar tone and that is my point.

Regarding my simplistic hypothesis in the post which you quoted, my point is that a great set of NOS tubes will NOT turn my amp into something it isn't. Additionally tonal diversity inherent in the design of amps is something to celebrate and take advantage of rather than stamp out through modification in order to make one amp sounds more like another. These tonal quirks are the 'character' of a particular amp.

I own several tube amps some of which do have NOS tubes in them. I also have current production tubes in some of my other amps which after much experimentation are just what the doctor ordered. :)

[Dave Perry]

I quoted you but I had more Zoesch in mind. His logic is that the components are interchangeable and thus they must be exactly the same in every respect and I don't think that's true. Circuits can adapt to some degree to differences.

I'm not even sure people totally understand why components made of different materials might sound different but in some cases they do. Ask a sampling of high end instrument amp manufacturers if carbon comp resistors sound different than metal film and I think you will usually hear them say they do (I've read the claim that the "less perfect" performance of carbon comp actually contributes favorably to guitar amp tone). Which they prefer will be a matter of taste, though.

[Zoesch]

I quoted you but I had more Zoesch in mind. His logic is that the components are interchangeable and thus they must be exactly the same in every respect and I don't think that's true. Circuits can adapt to some degree to differences.

I'm not even sure people totally understand why components made of different materials might sound different but in some cases they do. Ask a sampling of high end instrument amp manufacturers if carbon comp resistors sound different than metal film and I think you will usually hear them say they do (I've read the claim that the "less perfect" performance of carbon comp actually contributes favorably to guitar amp tone). Which they prefer will be a matter of taste, though.

No they don't... that's the problem, the problem with audio circuits is that tolerances are unbelievably wide in most designs so if you swap a tube with .001uF parasitic capacitance with one with .0001uF parasitic capacitance you won't hear a damn difference. Still, there will be a change on the circuit per se, if you look at its transient response it will be slightly different, the question is... is it different enough to matter audibly? No... swapping caps of the same value or changing resistors of the same value for others of different materials will only affect the HF characteristics of the circuit, way outside the audible range.

With tubes other things like filament materials or gas density are way more important, but we're gonna go into the realm of the waxing poetry, when does a 12AX7 ceases to be a 12AX7? When you change its design to be something else. But if you grab 2 stock 12AX7's from two different factories built to the same spec then the result will be practically the same.

Audio signals happen to be in a range where most HF characteristics of electronic components don't matter and normally you get much more performance improvements from changing solder types or hand wiring circuits than from changing resistors from metal film to carbon poly.

And when you see most mods, what they hide with mojo BS is that they are changing the biasing of the tubes and thus moving away from the linear transfer zone of the tube.

Tommy is right, the first thing I look at in an amp is not where the tubes were made (Or who made them) it's how are they biased and how is that circuit coupled to the input and output stages, THAT makes an audible difference.

[otek]

Here's how I read Zoesch's point:

You will hear (on the whole) minor differences between a Mullard 12AX7 and an RCA 12AX7. You will most definitely hear a difference between a 12AX7 and a 12AT7.

The previous discussion on this, before it veered off yet again, was essentially arguing benefits of the equivalent of trying to make a 12AX7 sound like a 12AT7. I think this is a pretty pointless experiment in that a) it will inevitably fail, and b) there is no need for it. There are 12AX7's out there available for purchase which will give you 100% the proper result.

There was also a blanket statement being made about tubes being superior to transistors. That's kind of like saying an arm is superior to a leg. Before we allow this discussion to become so much bloated rhetoric, let's recognize that tubes, resistors, transistors etc. are components which in and of themselves do not an amplifier make, and while they do have an impact on results, the circuit design is far more important.

Or would anyone like to argue that a Behringer Ultragain is superior to a Neve 1073 because it has a tube in it? I rest my case.


otek

[Tommy Fobia]

There was also a blanket statement being made about tubes being superior to transistors. That's kind of like saying an arm is superior to a leg.

Exactly.


When pushed to the extremity of their operational limitations, transistors are far more efficient than tubes. So does this mean that they are better? :Wink:

[otek]

When pushed to the extremity of their operational limitations, transistors are far more efficient than tubes. So does this mean that they are better? :Wink:

And even beyond individual component performance, the circuit determines how good those components are allowed to be.


otek

[kasta]

There was also a blanket statement being made about tubes being superior to transistors. That's kind of like saying an arm is superior to a leg. otek

But everyone knows an arm IS better than a leg. :lol:

[Pimp-X]

But everyone knows an arm IS better than a leg. :lol:

But in this game, anything worthwhile will cost you both.

[Zoesch]

But everyone knows an arm IS better than a leg. :lol:

Only for wanking :lol:

[Knastratt]

You can hear the difference between different kinds of tubes, however, the difference between different brands of the same tube are, in fact... negligible.


To each his own! :Thumbsup:

[Zoesch]

To each his own! :Thumbsup:

To be honest and I don't want to get into the double blind test debate debacle (Because it sucks and is more subjective than anything) in most cases people just "want" to hear a difference and they force themselves to hear it.

That's why I take the whole "I swapped my tubes and now my amp roars" gospel with a grain of salt the size of Ayers Rock.

[Brendo]

thing is, with any tube swap, you'll be doing biasing as well, right? when you take your car in for a tuneup, do you comment on how much better the new air in your tyres is compared to the air that was previously in them, or how much better the oil feels to drive with than the oil that was in there before?

[Dave Perry]

Still disagree with you, Zoesch, and there are some well qualified EE degree holding techs I could drag into this but I won't cause them the headache.

I'll restate my point that there are plenty of people out there with a lot of experience in audio (be it as musicians, techs, or audiophiles) who prefer certain brands, years, factories, etc. over others for the same tube type in a given circuit. I'm one of them, and I'm very much not alone in this.

I have RCA, black and grey plate Sylvania, and Visseaux 6V6 tubes that I use with my Victoria and they all have a distinct and audible character unto themselves. It isn't a dramatic difference, but it is noticeable. The RCA's have a more subdued midrange, for instance, and more "sparkle", whereas the Visseaux sounds a little closer to an EL-34. They also produce different distortion characteristics, which obviously is a factor in guitar amping.

Having collected older European and American tubes in the past, I've also read many reviews people have written comparing different brands of tubes in the same amp (both in the instrument and hi-fi arenas) and I have never run across anyone saying that the sonic differences between an Amperex, an RCA, and a Mullard of the equivalent type was "negligible" . Quite the contrary, actually.

And with that, I will summarily drop the matter. So, Cary, you are on your own from here on out, bud. :)

[Knastratt]

To be honest and I don't want to get into the double blind test debate debacle (Because it sucks and is more subjective than anything) in most cases people just "want" to hear a difference and they force themselves to hear it.

That's why I take the whole "I swapped my tubes and now my amp roars" gospel with a grain of salt the size of Ayers Rock.

I don't deal in beliefs. I deal in preferred sound. Neither do I need double blind tests to confirm what I like. Coming to think of it - if I'd ever feel the need to do a double blind test - the difference would probably be negligeble in the first place.

Let's give an example. If I put a NOS 100$ Mullard in my amp and it suck balls compared to a 10$ Svetlana - guess who stays and who goes.

This whole thing is not a big deal other than you're NOT allowed to pick my toobes. :lol:

Peace - Pär

PS I'm on a quest for the sound of my dreams. Forcing myself to "hear" things that's not there would simply stall me.

[Dave Perry]

Deleted, see below.

[Dave Perry]

This whole thing is not a big deal other than you're NOT allowed to pick my toobes. :lol:

Peace - Pär

And I'll be bringing my own amp to his studio (if he'll let me in after this). :lol:

[Dave Perry]

Deleted. I already said I was done.

[Knastratt]

Before I post this pict I need to issue a disclaimer. I picked 95% up in one move for less than 75$. The Mullards for the same amount. Facts in hand - I have no need to justify any sickly expensive purchases by forcing myself to "hear" the differences in favour of "expensiveness". I come from a different background.

http://www.mixerized.com/files/toobs.jpg

Cheers - Pär

[David Aurora]

this thread is fucking hilarious :lol: :lol:

the only thing im gonna add is this- as for the whole tubes vs transistors thing...... yeah, we can safely say they both have their pros and cons, and its a personal thing, and it depends on the design used..... etc etc....

now that ive used that disclaimer..... guess how many times ive heard (what i would describe as) a great guitar tone, and found out it was actually solid state.......


lower.




nope, even less.....



oh, you said zero? yeah, still lower.


fuck solid state guitar amps. fuck them right in the ear. :grin:




(ok, theres one obvious exception, which is dimebag darrel, but come on, that fucker could have plugged a cord into a dog turd and it would have sounded fantastic. which i guess leads to a whole new can of worms really doesnt it..... and on that note, im leaving this thread haha)

[Cary Chilton]

I agree with Tommy, biasing will make the biggest difference on the sound of an amp, despite what tubes: new or old. The rest(tubes, component tweaking, speaker changes, cable changes) is the law of diminishing returns - but how important it is for those who want their own sound. This is not an argument, but I think most here live for those small changes, too. Is a Neve 1073 so much better than a Pacifica? Is a U47 so much better than U87? These differences are small, especially to unaccustomed ears, but money being no object.... ;) All these small differences could be said to be only opinion and taste, but majority of those in know, know the difference to be worth fighting for.
Otek I hear what your saying, solid state and tube amplified amps are apples and oranges. Sometimes you WANT apples and sometimes you want oranges? Right? Would you use a Gallien Krueger for Alex Lifeson's clean chorus tones or the clean channel on Mesa MK II+C? I get it. Solid state power amps like H&H for slaving are excellent and that is why many big acts use them.
My point, held by the majority of guitarists (I can't speak for non-guitarists) is that tube amps are more pleasing for saturated rock tones. We feel that in general, solid state stuff has a grainy or transistor-ish sound to it at times. This is mostly evident when you try tweak them to sound like more like a decent overdriven tube amp... now if your not trying to match that complex signal that of a saturated good tube amp, full of partial harmonics and your happy with its version of overdriven tones, then fuckin great right? I sure was when I started playing my Canoe Paddle with electronics, I digress. But the again the market never had the killer new solid state devices, like Axel fx way back then... It has raised the bar of what's possible in the solid state realm for sure. Even so, it's main critique -possiby the only one- is that the saturated tones while great and realistic are sterile sounding.... so there again, still not quite meeting the bar.... Peter Thorn, nice guy and a very discerning ear for guitar tone digs his new Axe Fx. However, I am sure when it comes time to record, with Chris Cornell, he is bringing his Concorde Komet and his Custom Suhr instead because it sounds better to him.

[Cary Chilton]

this thread is fucking hilarious :lol: :lol:

Yep.


(ok, theres one obvious exception, which is dimebag darrel, but come on, that fucker could have plugged a cord into a dog turd and it would have sounded fantastic.

David, I hate to bring this up, but you remember who Dimebag's hero was right? V## ok I won't say it... hehe

[gronk]

that fucker could have plugged a cord into a dog turd and it would have sounded fantastic.

Yeah sure, but it's gotta be the brown stuff, cos the black stuff is just shit!

[Knastratt]

Oh, BTW, I don't have any problems with transistor amps. I lived with a Peavey for 5 years and it did exactly what I wanted it to do. I don't want peeps to think I'm on the "this vs that" train. No, no.

Peace - Pär

[David Aurora]

Yep.




David, I hate to bring this up, but you remember who Dimebag's hero was right? V## ok I won't say it... hehe

yeah i know haha.... no comment :lol:

[Zoesch]

I don't deal in beliefs. I deal in preferred sound. Neither do I need double blind tests to confirm what I like. Coming to think of it - if I'd ever feel the need to do a double blind test - the difference would probably be negligeble in the first place.

Let's give an example. If I put a NOS 100$ Mullard in my amp and it suck balls compared to a 10$ Svetlana - guess who stays and who goes.

This whole thing is not a big deal other than you're NOT allowed to pick my toobes. :lol:

Peace - Pär

PS I'm on a quest for the sound of my dreams. Forcing myself to "hear" things that's not there would simply stall me.

And no need to get defensive about it, you'll put the tube that sounds better to your ears which has been my point all along.

The point that a $100 tube will make your amp magically sound better is moot, it might, in 90% of the cases it won't simply because the problems are somewhere else in the amp design. However lots of people get to that point where they magically feel there's an improvement where there's none.

And for those poo pooing on solid state amps... three words

Sunn Beta Lead.

[Knastratt]

And no need to get defensive about it, you'll put the tube that sounds better to your ears which has been my point all along.

The point that a $100 tube will make your amp magically sound better is moot, it might, in 90% of the cases it won't simply because the problems are somewhere else in the amp design. However lots of people get to that point where they magically feel there's an improvement where there's none.

And for those poo pooing on solid state amps... three words

Sunn Beta Lead.

:Thumbsup:

[Cary Chilton]

right now, for a hundred 100 beans there is one on craigslist..... I'd rather have a tiny terror though.

[nobby]

do you comment on how much better the new air in your tyres is compared to the air that was previously in them

The air in you tires gets stale after a while.

It's best to replace it with fresh air every 2000 miles or so if you want a smoother ride.

[Zoesch]

The air in you tires gets stale after a while.

It's best to replace it with fresh air every 2000 miles or so if you want a smoother ride.

And make sure you replace it with oxygen free Monster Air for the best response from your tires. :Roll eyes:

[nobby]

And make sure you replace it with oxygen free Monster Air for the best response from your tires. :Roll eyes:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Zoesch]

right now, for a hundred 100 beans there is one on craigslist..... I'd rather have a tiny terror though.

I missed this one... you are comparing two amps that don't sound remotely the same and saying that'd you'd rather have a Tiny Terror?

Shows you have no fucking clue about what Sunn's are/were and what are they good for.

For the record, I have a tiny terror amongst other amps, the day I manage to make a valve amp sound like a hex inverter amp is the day I give away my EE degree and decide to go to some country to teach philosophy and tap dancing.

[Keks]

... tap dancing.

Hey, I'd enroll for that!
:grin:

[Cary Chilton]

you tap dance??? :) I heard some clips of that amp on youtube and they sucked cock and balls.... but all the clips on youtube suck cock and balls....that said, most youtube clips of amps that I personally know well, I can hear if the clip is accurate or not despite youtube's streaming shitty audio quality. I don't have personal knowledge of that amp, but comparing youtube's tiny terror to that Sunn you mentioned....Tiny sounded better, imo.

[otek]

Tiny sounded better, imo.

I think you're missing the point I tried to make earlier.

Better for what? You are essentially comparing apples to oranges (no pun intended).

As for recognizing the sound of "amplifiers you know well" from a Youtube clip - Of course you will, that's how the mind works, it fills in non-existing information from memory and past experience. Especially if you have a visual cue of the amp in the pic.

For a serious sound evaluation tool, it's useless. Much of it is not about Youtube compression either, it's about the wildly varying recording techniques and circumstances.


otek

[Zoesch]

you tap dance??? :) I heard some clips of that amp on youtube and they sucked cock and balls.... but all the clips on youtube suck cock and balls....that said, most youtube clips of amps that I personally know well, I can hear if the clip is accurate or not despite youtube's streaming shitty audio quality. I don't have personal knowledge of that amp, but comparing youtube's tiny terror to that Sunn you mentioned....Tiny sounded better, imo.

Nope, here we have proof that you are an idiot. You're comparing youtube samples of two amps whose only connection is that they're both amplifiers, congrats, do the world a favor and cut your balls before you get a chance to reproduce.

Hope you don't like Nirvana, Guns'n'Roses, Tool, Queens Of The Stone Age, Kyuss or Melvins amongst others... no, wait, why am I asking? You're the guy with the PRS, and the Marshall/Van Halen obsession.

See, here's the thing, it wasn't designed to sound like a eunuch cock-rock amp, you can buy a JCM if you need that.

Next thing you're going to state is "Guitar players that use a Bassman are clueless"?

Stay tuned!

[Dave Perry]

And I'd like to welcome all of you to Wombony Central.

I'd say Cary shouldn't assume the Sunn is bad from YouTube clips, if for no other reason than the person making the clip might suck various previously mentioned male organs when it comes to amp settings, mic placement, their guitar might suck etc. (I think otek made that point).

OTOH, I disagree that he, or anyone, can't personally judge two amps that are dissimilar and say "this one's better". Every subjective judgment is a matter of taste. Some people like apples more than oranges. Some people like Marshalls more than Oranges. :grin:

[Brendo]

Right, but I think you guys are trying to push shit up a hill with a toothpick - Cary's never going to budge from his one "perfect ideal" setup in his mind, and anyone who suggests anything that's not on his prescribed list is clearly mentally dicktarded or something, right?

[Cary Chilton]

Right, but I think you guys are trying to push shit up a hill with a toothpick - Cary's never going to budge from his one "perfect ideal" setup in his mind, and anyone who suggests anything that's not on his prescribed list is clearly mentally dicktarded or something, right?

Brendo I like what I like... don't you? If I try the Sunn in person maybe I'll dig it maybe not. BTW Otek my use of the word better is of course subjective. If I like the Tiny Terror better, or thought it sounded better or thought its saturation or voice was better.... it is exactly that.... I liked it better. ;)

[Brendo]

OVER YOUTUBE.

What those guys are suggesting is that it's a pointless endeavour to try and get an idea of tones over Youtube. I've listened to clips of pedals on there when buying off eBay and hated the sounds, but then loved the pedals when I got them (and vice versa).

Same applies to amps.

You CANNOT make judgement calls from Youtube clips.

[Cary Chilton]

Nope, here we have proof that you are an idiot. You're comparing youtube samples of two amps whose only connection is that they're both amplifiers, congrats, do the world a favor and cut your balls before you get a chance to reproduce.

Hope you don't like Nirvana, Guns'n'Roses, Tool, Queens Of The Stone Age, Kyuss or Melvins amongst others... no, wait, why am I asking? You're the guy with the PRS, and the Marshall/Van Halen obsession.

See, here's the thing, it wasn't designed to sound like a eunuch cock-rock amp, you can buy a JCM if you need that.

Next thing you're going to state is "Guitar players that use a Bassman are clueless"?

Stay tuned!

Your posts always have me laughing and puking at the same time.

[Zoesch]

Brendo I like what I like... don't you? If I try the Sunn in person maybe I'll dig it maybe not. BTW Otek my use of the word better is of course subjective. If I like the Tiny Terror better, or thought it sounded better or thought its saturation or voice was better.... it is exactly that.... I liked it better. ;)

Problem is, you don't do it professionally or even outside the comfortable realm of recording yourself.

The day I need tips and advice on how to record Cary Chilton then I'll take your advice, otherwise? No.

Opinions are only worth the context they come from... in your case? What about Rihanna?

[otek]

OTOH, I disagree that he, or anyone, can't personally judge two amps that are dissimilar and say "this one's better". Every subjective judgment is a matter of taste. Some people like apples more than oranges. Some people like Marshalls more than Oranges.

Making a choice on your personal rig is fine.

But imagine trying to push your own personal (and very limited) preference onto every band that walked in the door, regardless of context or style.

Some would say record production, to a certain extent, is about exactly that - the band is, after all, paying me for my opinions.

But record production is also about hearing sounds in a larger context, and creating something unique - your own experiences noodling on amps in music stores goes only so far towards developing that ability. Bands like The Melvins or QOTSA use, among other things, Sunn amps. I can't get that sound with an Orange Tiny Terror.


otek

[iCombs]

What about Rihanna?

Wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers.

"Umbrella" gets stuck in my head for days.

Shouldn't have gotten back together with Chris Brown.

Did I mention I woulnd't kick her out of bed for eating crackers?

[Tommy Fobia]

But record production is also about hearing sounds in a larger context, and creating something unique - your own experiences noodling on amps in music stores goes only so far towards developing that ability.

And that ladies and gentlemen is as crystal clear as it gets.

It's kinda what I was banging on about a couple of pages ago, but the way I said it, I'm pretty sure it was as clear as mud. :Confused:

Cheers Otek, from my perspective thats exactly what this thread is about. :Thumbsup:

[Cary Chilton]

Zoesch, do you own this solid state Sunn you have been talking about? If so, do you have a wav file of a recording of it? Perhaps of your own playing, untreated, raw, 44.1/16 wav? That would be good enough quality for me to really know its sound.

You say, GnR and Nirvana used them? What recording used it exclusively?

Otek, I am not pushing my preferences on vintage Marshalls... really. I do like many amps. Never tried this solid state vintage Sunn yet.... and I hope it sounds infinitely better than the youtube clip that I heard!

[Dave Perry]

But record production is also about hearing sounds in a larger context, and creating something unique - your own experiences noodling on amps in music stores goes only so far towards developing that ability. Bands like The Melvins or QOTSA use, among other things, Sunn amps. I can't get that sound with an Orange Tiny Terror.


otek

That's true, and I think Belew and Fripp did amazing things with JC-120 amps. I prefer tubes as well, but I agree you should keep and open mind and think about different sounds in different contexts.

I think you've got two different tracks here in this argument---a player arguing one (personal) way of doing things and producer/engineers arguing in favor of versatility.

[Zoesch]

Zoesch, do you own this solid state Sunn you have been talking about? If so, do you have a wav file of a recording of it? Perhaps of your own playing, untreated, raw, 44.1/16 wav? That would be good enough quality for me to really know its sound.

You say, GnR and Nirvana used them? What recording used it exclusively?

Otek, I am not pushing my preferences on vintage Marshalls... really. I do like many amps. Never tried this solid state vintage Sunn yet.... and I hope it sounds infinitely better than the youtube clip that I heard!

I used to have two Sunns, a Model T and a solid state Alpha about 9 years ago, unfortunately sold them when I moved studios and countries (110V only)... but I got a Beta lead on the way (If they guy decides to sell). If you want to know what they sound like in the context of a recording then Kyuss-Blues For A Red Sun, Melvins-Houdini or Torche-Meandertal are good examples.

Nirvana used the beta lead extensively on all their records layered with other amps.

Slash used it on Appetite for Destruction also layered.

The point was not that you should move to Sunn because they are the best or better than marshall, the point is, there are plenty of Solid State amps that are very well designed and can provide very rich distorted tones and that you can't lock yourself (As an engineer, as a musician you're allowed to do so from the context of your own tone) into one type and brand of amps.

[Dave Perry]

I believe Lynyrd Skynyrd is another good reference point for heavy reliance on SS amps. My recollection is they used Peaveys.

[otek]

I think you've got two different tracks here in this argument---a player arguing one (personal) way of doing things and producer/engineers arguing in favor of versatility.

I think the only argument you'll have from me is against the absolute of "solid state sucks" and "has no place" (paraphrased from another very similar thread).


otek

[Dave Perry]

Yes, there are examples (some already given) of excellent uses of it. I think the "SS sucks" bandwagon starts with people associating solid state with the crapola practice amps they were stuck toiling on as kids.

If they move from a cruddy little practice amp to a Roland or a Sunn, they probably don't get the same prejudice against SS formed, but if they go to a decent tube amp, they may conclude that tube=pro and SS=cheap.

[blackieC]

This is all just getting silly, but in the interest of full disclosure I present the following.

SS and tube that amps I have owned/played through or heard used properly:

Roland JC120. The best squeaky clean tone you are likely to run across. The only thing it will overdrive is the sense that you should plunge a rusty garden spade into your chest while trying to get a distorted tone out of it. Again in the interest of full disclosure, I have had a rusty garden spade run through my skull, but I suspect that my brother didn't really mean it at the time. That would be much more funny if it wasn't true. Should I run across any of you folks in real life, I will allow you to feel the dent in my noggin left by said garden spade. The sole saving grace of the JC120 was that my main guitar at the time was a Les Paul as opposed the the the Telecasters that I adopted later.

I am getting ahead of, or rather behind myself.

My first amp was a SS Harmony that would not sound like anything other than ass in any context. My next step up from that was a Crate CR120. I was fourteen years old and the Crate was a hundred bucks cheaper than a comparable Peavey, so I bought the Crate. That piece of shit carried me through most of my high school years including the day when I won a best soloist award at a high school jazz band festival. What the judges didn't know was that I dropped my LP on a hardwood floor prior to the performance and was too freaked out to worry about my tone or anything else at the time. I just walked out and made the best of it. I can still remember listening to the judges tapes later as I asked the piano player to give me an A and one of them said that the guitar player should buy a tuner. That was the day before I bought my first pair of strap locks.

Not to be moving entirely in circles, but after the Crate, I moved on to the JC120. That amp served me well for a while until faced with certain financial realities, I moved in with my folks several states away and left the Roland in the care of a bass player who later sold my amp in exchange for coke. One of the consolations I had upon flying back to attend his funeral was that he had sold off his Sunn Model T bass rig before my amp to put powder up his nose. In an "ain't this world funny" context, I later ended up playing in a band with a bass player that had the same Sunn bass rig. Not a similar amp, the same amp. Wally made it sound better than Allan.

So anyhoo, there I was back in Tulsa a few months later with what I considered the best amp I had ever owned traded for a few toots and still stuck with my Crate.

A year or so later I hooked up with an old high school friend that turned me on to a deal in a local pawn shop on a JMP 50 watt. That was my first Marshall and while it changed my outlook on guitar amps for what may be the the remainder of my life, the amp didn't change me or my life.

I have played through a number of Marshalls, Randalls, Peaveys, a couple of Orange's, some Crates, a Roland or two, a Framus, a Bogner, a couple of Sivertones and a couple of sweet blackface Fenders.

That is the short list of guitar amps.

Since I have switched over to playing bass I have run through a variety of Ampegs, an Eden, a couple of SWR's and I am still looking forward to being able explore the Ashdowns. For the moment, the Ampeg SVT 4 is still my amp of choice.

These are all amps that I have played though at one time or another, most of which before an audience.

Not to harp too much upon a point, but just doesn't fucking matter how great your tone is if you are the only one to hear it.

[Brendo]

untreated, raw, 44.1/16 wav? That would be good enough quality for me to really know its sound.

Never tried this solid state vintage Sunn yet.... and I hope it sounds infinitely better than the youtube clip that I heard!

Goddamn. This guy just doesn't stop, does he? Cary, it's past April 1, you can drop the act.

[Brendo]

I can still remember listening to the judges tapes later as I asked the piano player to give me an A and one of them said that the guitar player should buy a tuner.

Wait, what? Tuning to the piano isn't acceptable? Even though the guitar could be in tune to an electronic tuner, but the piano might be tuned to say, A438? What goofy fucking judges were these?

[blackieC]

Wait, what? Tuning to the piano isn't acceptable? Even though the guitar could be in tune to an electronic tuner, but the piano might be tuned to say, A438? What goofy fucking judges were these?

Thanks for the support and all, but this was my fuckup...

My memory is hazy, but one of the judges was a bass player that was also a music teacher at ORU. He was also the cat that suggested I get a tuner. If memory serves the song was "stolen moments". If I were to addle my brains a little bit more, this cat also wrote a chart especially for my high school jazz band that we weren't quite able to pull off.

[Dave Perry]

I know the Jazz Chorus is known for bad onboard distortion but I once had an Ibanez with high output active pickups plugged into one and it actually sounded kind of cool.

I'm not sure what Belew was doing on Big Electric Cat (and if that was even a JC) but I like the distortion sound he got.

[Cary Chilton]

I used to have two Sunns, a Model T and a solid state Alpha about 9 years ago, unfortunately sold them when I moved studios and countries (110V only)... but I got a Beta lead on the way (If they guy decides to sell). If you want to know what they sound like in the context of a recording then Kyuss-Blues For A Red Sun, Melvins-Houdini or Torche-Meandertal are good examples.

Nirvana used the beta lead extensively on all their records layered with other amps.

Slash used it on Appetite for Destruction also layered.

The point was not that you should move to Sunn because they are the best or better than marshall, the point is, there are plenty of Solid State amps that are very well designed and can provide very rich distorted tones and that you can't lock yourself (As an engineer, as a musician you're allowed to do so from the context of your own tone) into one type and brand of amps.

Fair enough. The only solid state amp I have heard in recordings were for layering only like Randalls, crates, peaveys, roland cube's, and line 6's. While in layering they did sound great, they were never used as the primary tone generator. However, the Sunn maybe leagues above. It is worth mentioning solid state has changed a lot of 12 years or so. Jfet, Mosfet, Dual IC, LED clipping, incorporation of a tube and most of it doesn't suck. However, at least to date, tube amps are the dominant preferred tone generators for guitarists in major studios. Will this change? Anyway, if you get your Beta hopefully you will post a raw clip.

[blackieC]

I know the Jazz Chorus is known for bad onboard distortion but I once had an Ibanez with high output active pickups plugged into one and it actually sounded kind of cool.

I'm not sure what Belew was doing on Big Electric Cat (and if that was even a JC) but I like the distortion sound he got.

And that is as it should be.

[otek]

I'm not sure what Belew was doing on Big Electric Cat (and if that was even a JC) but I like the distortion sound he got.

That was a Foxx Tone Machine fuzz pedal into a JC-120.

It is worth mentioning solid state has changed a lot of 12 years or so.

FWIW the Sunn Beta Lead, the Music Man Sixty-Five and the Roland Jazz Chorus are all originally 70's constructions.

However, at least to date, tube amps are the dominant preferred tone generators for guitarists in major studios. Will this change?

Probably not anytime soon. But solid state amps will still have their place, much like distortion pedals still have their place.


otek

[CaptainHook]

I had a sunn model-t for a while. It was brutal live. Loved it. But
i never captured 'it' recorded. :( I had to let it go when times
were hard and it was a tough choice but i don't play live anymore so..

[Zoesch]

I had a sunn model-t for a while. It was brutal live. Loved it. But
i never captured 'it' recorded. :( I had to let it go when times
were hard and it was a tough choice but i don't play live anymore so..

You literally need a power soak to be able to record it, that fucker is so loud either you record it from a few feet away or put a power soak so you can close mic it.

It was made for live, arena style rigs (That's why it had the Arena-Club switch) and it was just that loud.

Loved it... miss it a lot :Sad:

[blackieC]

You literally need a power soak to be able to record it, that fucker is so loud either you record it from a few feet away or put a power soak so you can close mic it.

It was made for live, arena style rigs (That's why it had the Arena-Club switch) and it was just that loud.

Loved it... miss it a lot :Sad:

I was in band that had the county sheriffs called out on them with a noise complaint. The nearest neighbor was a half a mile away. He said that we were scaring his cattle. A Sunn Model T was involved.

[CaptainHook]

You literally need a power soak to be able to record it, that fucker is so loud either you record it from a few feet away or put a power soak so you can close mic it.


Yeah, i tried all sorts. I generally mic around a foot or so off the
cab anyway but even if i got it sounding "good" recorded, it was
a bitter disappointment compared to hearing the thing in flesh
and honestly wasn't miles better than anything else we may have
been recording with at the time.

So i say it was a failure but in the eyes of another it may not have
been. Doing an album right now with a power soak on a JMP.
It sounds really good. I guess a lot of amps sound really good
to me though, they're just different and no better or worse.
They fit a song/band/part or they don't. Some have a good batting
average, others barely get to play but when they do they're
a home run.

In that sense, the sunn sounded really good too but i was hoping
it was going to KILL other amps next to it like it was in the room.
Then again, part of it was the experience of a guitar amp hitting
you in the chest like a kick drum. I really liked how percussive
that amp was/is.

My expectations for recording it were all wrong. :D

[Cary Chilton]

I am really curious if Z got his solid state Sunn?

[Brendo]

I am really curious if Z got his solid state Sunn?

He said "but I got a Beta lead on the way (If they guy decides to sell)." four freaking days ago.

Ease the fuck up, CC.