Gain Settings

[JRjr]

i will use a soundcraft k2 for example with this question.

do you set your gains by using the ppm meter on the channel or do you solo and use the vu meter? why?

[bunnerabb]

I just put the mix together and then solo shit out once in a while if it sounds like there's a major gain change on that channel.

Any quick glance at the solo meter should tell you if that input is zeroing out at +4 or if it's weak or too hot.

I always start a mix with the gains all the way down.

[JRjr]

I just put the mix together and then solo shit out once in a while if it sounds like there's a major gain change on that channel.

Any quick glance at the solo meter should tell you if that input is zeroing out at +4 or if it's weak or too hot.

I always start a mix with the gains all the way down.

thank you...i know this sounds like a newbie question...i probably am one...here is the reasoning behind the question...

this one chap that i have worked some gigs with likes to solo up the channel and do all his gains based on the vu meter. there have been a few instances where we worked foh with the same band him the night before me. i figured alright, i will just kinda go with his stuff and tweak here and there. each time his levels are so hot they are almost clipping.

some other things that i have noticed he likes to do is double monitor...i.e. he has vocals subbed down to a group. he assigns the vocal channels to the appropriate group and to the master. he also likes to assign the verb returns that he uses for the vocals to the vocal's sub group as well.

i know there are a billion different ways to do things and no actual hard-fast rules with audio...but, this guy has a ton more experience than i do and has worked with some top names in music industry (in the studio). i am racking my brain trying to think of reasons he does these things...if there is some logic behind it, i want to learn about it, i don't know it all.

here are my hang-ups...i get the fact that "well if i accidentally mute the vocal subgroup then the vocals will still be heard because they are assigned to the main mix too." i also understand they like the extra 3db when you assign the vox to both, but if your levels are already that hot, why would you need the extra 3 db? what benefit would you get by assigning the fx returns to the subgroups. they're not vca's, so if all you are doing is making the returns louder as you push up the sub group fader, or softer as you bring it down. but that doesn't send more or less signal to the fx, so wouldn't that make your fx "un-proportional? or does it make it like some sort of pseudo-vca? is that even a term? one last hang-up...he likes to make eq adjustments while listening in the cans...but the cans do not account for the room, right? so wouldn't this eliminate the effect the room has on the specific sound source you are making the adjustments, therefore making it possible that it doesn't sound as good in the room as it does your headphones?

don't think i am ragging on the guy...i have a lot of respect for what he has done...i really am wondering if i am missing something or am i just analyzing this way too much. are these types of techniques common-practice? if so, are they used for other reasons than the one's that i have mentioned?

or does it all boil down to, "who cares? how does his mix sound?"

thanks for reading all of this...

[Scodiddly]

The channel strip meters on the k2 are plenty good enough for setting gains. Actually I'm not even sure why they put mechanical VU meters on that or any other modern board, I sure can't use them for anything useful.

That aside, for vocals I already know where the gains ought to be set on boards I've used a few times. And 99% of the time I already set them when I tuned up the monitors before the band arrived.

[bunnerabb]

Well, the double bussing on the vocals is an old trick.

You just whip it into another gain stage and your vocals are out front.

As far as the verb returns, if you have the vocals double bussed, you have to do that to get the gains structure that's returning the vocal verb back to parity with the double bussed vocals.

As far as his whole approach:

If you are running that hot and you have to push the vocals through a pair of subs to get them on top, your gain structure sucks ass.

Badly.

I do it sometimes if I have to to get a wimpy vocalist heard but I'll try and reset the rest of the mix if they're maxed on the channel.

I usually do four compressed submaster stems

Drums
Guitars, Keys
Bass
Vocals

I'll pop the lead signer into the L/R if they got no oomph, but only as a last resort.

Some times I'll punch in and out of it for solos, but I'd rather just ride the faders.

[pounce]

well, just a few thoughts. gain staging is a huge and important subject, so i'll just mention a few things that come to mind.

one thing to think about to conceptualize gain is that it would be that a great goal is to make it so that levels coming in to the mixer from each channel are the same. setting gain that way, so that hot and fairly equal volumes are getting into the mixer means that the mixer will perform in at it's best noise specs with respect to the signal to noise ratio. also, it means that when you look at two faders on the board, if they are at the same place then the volume from each is equal on the ouput. same thing with one channel with the fader pushed higher, it will be louder than a lower one. therefore gain should make it so all the volumes reaching the mixer are equalled so that you aren't trying to do it via the channel faders. the faders should represent the mix.

in -theory-, if you had a channel set to unity and the gain on that channel all the way down, you would have signal on the channel and slowly boost the gain until in the VU you saw the channel level at unity making a correlation between the channel markings, the mixers internal gain staging, and the ouput volume.

that isn't a bad general guide in the studio, but you might find in live situations that you want to have the gain a little less hot. so the above was a great way to start thinking about gain. the mixer wants a certain level of signal to perform optimally, and that kind of gain staging does so. that gain staging also requires a mixer with a lot of headroom. in our case, in order to assure we have a little more headroom, i'd possibly use a little less gain than what i just mentioned, but all of that based on a lot of factors.

there isn't a lot you should be doing with headphones live. sure, you can check individual channels that way, or check aux's and such, but i wouldn't use headphones to set gain or eq for the room. you just have to listen to the room.

lastly, there are a lot of reasons why you might double buss things. it sounds like a pretty cool way to deal with subgroups, but it's not in case you shut the subgroup off. it's for the sound. works in both the studio and live, it's a cool technique.

[JRjr]

thanks gentlemen...that clears up a lot of questions.

one last thing. on a desk without vca's....assigning fx return channels to the same subgroup as your instrument or vocal channels (i.e. vox assigned to subgroup 8 and the fx (you use for the vox) returns assigned you group 8 as well). any advantages? disadvantages?

thanks again.

[bunnerabb]

in -theory-, if you had a channel set to unity and the gain on that channel all the way down, you would have signal on the channel and slowly boost the gain until in the VU you saw the channel level at unity making a correlation between the channel markings, the mixers internal gain staging, and the output volume.

That's the Mackie method and.. frankly, it doesn't yield the flava, I need.

for the heavy bands, I'll smash the guitars to where I can literally sit at 0 dBV on the channel, give the bass a slightly looser attack and with a longer release time until it can be dragged anywhere from -7 to +4 with no major tonal imbalances and give the vocals about 3 dBV over the rest of it on the channels.

To me, if I need to double buss the vocals, either my gains are fucked or the singer is a creampuff.

I always buss the effects back to L/C/R and often with VCA desks like 3 and 4ks' because the VCA window just ain't wide enough for some cues that need overstated effects.

YMMV

[pounce]

yes, it's all ymmv

it struck me that the explanation there of how to think of gain was a great start to understanding gain. from there, yes, you then start to change things up. that's not exactly how i work in real life, but it's a good way to begin getting your head wrapped around the concept.

[bunnerabb]

I agree.

:)

[Brendo]

Odd... the way I was taught to mix live, at least, was to aim for a "flat fader" mix, by getting all the levels approximately right with the faders at unity, adjusting the gains... and then the fader gives you your "fine adjustment"?

And then it also gives you your "my mix is fucked, its time to panic" setting - everything on 0...

Although, the guy who taught me this, was an old broadcast guy, and the situation was musical theater. I don't do that at all in the studio... is this common or just fuckin weird?

[bunnerabb]

I've ended with a pool cue mix, but I rarely start there.

the band has to grow into that.

My job is to make it sound like that band doing that song in that room until they hit boiling point.

[AxeSlash]

Something I recently found out...all of this can change dramatically when you shove some A/D conversion into the fray. Bit rates etc...I'll leave it to someone who's more sure of what the hell is going on inside one of those things than me to explain, but I find that generally speakin on digital boards I have to rag the gains harder and keep the outs lower than on an analogue desk.

Am I going mad or is there some substance to that?

[ggunn]

Something I recently found out...all of this can change dramatically when you shove some A/D conversion into the fray. Bit rates etc...I'll leave it to someone who's more sure of what the hell is going on inside one of those things than me to explain, but I find that generally speakin on digital boards I have to rag the gains harder and keep the outs lower than on an analogue desk.

Am I going mad or is there some substance to that?

Well, part of it is that in the digital world, there is no soft clipping. You want to stay out of the red in your A to D because that "all 1's" ceiling will cut off the tops of your waveforms like a knife.

[Jason Phair]

Brendo, the faders flat at unity IS common.



Don't make it right though.


As for double-bussing...I've never heard of it used for a certain "sound" nor have I ever heard that "sound" as a positive thing. It's a bandaid for a guy who sings like a pussy, and usually has brutal stage volume behind him, and you don't stick bandaids all over your body just because they look cool.

Axe - that seems to be idiosynchratic to different digital desks.

Just in the Yamaha family, the PM5D you want to whack the gains and go easy on the outputs (in other words, a typical Yamaha desk). The M7CL, on the other hand, you want to go nice and slow on input gain, because they start sounding like donkey dick if you beat on them, but the outputs seem just fine.


On second thought, fuck that. That's the case with EVERY desk. They all have their own idiosynchrasies with input vs. output. It's all about finding that sweet spot, and where it is on which instrument you're playing.

[Brendo]

Brendo, the faders flat at unity IS common.



Don't make it right though.

So what *is* "right", then? Generally speaking, because as you say, every board is different.

[Jason Phair]

Brendo, you're still going to want to use proper gainstaging techniques most of the time.


Having the faders all at unity is generally a pointless goal. Most of the time you're abandoning sound quality for...aesthetics? Yeah, there's the finer resolution of the fader around the unity point, but that shouldn't be THAT big a deal. If it is, it's likely that you're using the wrong rig for that room, or you've got gain scheduling issues elsewhere.


There are two main places you want to give your attention, as far as attaining a certain sound. First, there's the mic pre, obviously. After that, you want to think about where your output busses are at. Those, just as often as mic pres, will have a certain sweet spot, depending on where you're hitting it.

[macfeedback]

First thing I establish is the overall system gain, ie. this is about as loud I want the rig to get in this room, might vary it slightly after the waterbags take their seats, but not by much.

I do that with a mic and my voice.

I then set all faders at unity and dial in the channel gains/eq's to acheive my mix during sound check. To boost for a solo I push up the fader as needed. Otherwise hands off.

Aesthetic bullshitec, if the faders get scrambled I can always restore my mix. It is dialled in at zero!

I can then tell the openers that, on shared channels, they can ONLY mess with the faders, touch the gain/eq their tinnitus will be replaced by that other Simpson gal trying to hit A440.

If and when I sub group I will feed the relevant reverbs to the sub group, ie. vocals and vocal reverbs go to the same sub group.

For the dumbasses.......

VCA's have nothing to do with gain structure.

As far as chain ganging goes...........

If you need to send a channel to L/R AND to a Sub Group which is then ALSO sent to L/R you need to go back and learn about GAIN.

GAIN in LIVE sound is NOT just wot happens in the console.

There is also the tricky thing called HEADROOM.

101.

[ggunn]

The "mainest" thing about channel gain, IMO, is that it is set so that the highest you will ever have to set the fader won't go above 0dB and the lowest (that you want to remain audible) won't go into the mud.

[CaptainHook]

Flat fader mixing is REAL common around here.
And most of the time the mix out front is hit or miss.
That may be a result of the actual mixer being fairly
inconsistent him/her-self, but i tend to think that the
individual mic pre's just aren't getting optimal signal.

The times they ARE getting good signal, is the 'pure luck'
times when the room/setup/band happen to work together
in a way that a flat fader mix, results in the gains on
each channel being close to "optimized".
It's a fluke. IMHO

I completely agree with Jason and pounce.
The faders represent the MIX.
The gain is handled with the GAIN control.
Also a common mistake, is setting the input gain on
a channel and then EQing the fuck out of it, added ∞db
more gain to the channel and NOT compensating
by attenuating the gain of the channel! Good one.

Another thing that annoys me to see, all faders
sitting at unity or/and above..
THEN having the masters pulled down 6db+ so that
the meters on output are too high...???!!
They're slamming the internal mix bus to HELL and dont
even know it!
Some desks have the headroom for that sure,
but i see it and hear it done on desks where the whole mix
is 'collapsed' because of it.

Wow. Live soundman love to bag each other.
It's great! :)

[bunnerabb]

VCA's have nothing to do with gain structure.

I don't think anybody who has mixed on an LFC is too mystified about Voltage Controlled Amplifiers.

[Jason Phair]

I don't think anybody who has mixed on an LFC is too mystified about Voltage Controlled Amplifiers.


You'd be surprised.


I've known a lot of touring guys who could mix fucking circles around me but didn't know how a goddamn thing worked.


I've been asked if I could patch the outputs for the VCA's before.

On multiple occasions.

(and no, it wasn't for an external control, smartasses)



Back to the flat faders notion.


I've had this debate a million times with various people, including the guys I work with. There's three main soundguys. Two of us go with the "set your gain, then put the fader where it works", another goes with Mac's method. And ya know what? Once you get to a certain level, it kinda doesn't matter. What matters of course is can you get it to sound great, and can you do so everyday?

My railing against it tends to be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction though, because among most (for lack of a better term) "smaller fish" that I see do it, it's just out of ignorance. They DON'T know what they're doing. And therefore, like someone commented, the quality of such is hit or miss. Hell, I've had hit or miss myself before. On the perfect rig for the room, with a good band, when all the winds align at once, I've had days where I set my gains the way I do, and ended up with a faders flat mix.

Plus, when you're JUST FOH, it's easier to get away with, than when you have to deal with folding back wedges as well.

[macfeedback]

Flat fader mixing is REAL common around here.
And most of the time the mix out front is hit or miss.
That may be a result of the actual mixer being fairly
inconsistent him/her-self, but i tend to think that the
individual mic pre's just aren't getting optimal signal.

The times they ARE getting good signal, is the 'pure luck'
times when the room/setup/band happen to work together
in a way that a flat fader mix, results in the gains on
each channel being close to "optimized".
It's a fluke. IMHO

I completely agree with Jason and pounce.
The faders represent the MIX.
The gain is handled with the GAIN control.
Also a common mistake, is setting the input gain on
a channel and then EQing the fuck out of it, added ?db
more gain to the channel and NOT compensating
by attenuating the gain of the channel! Good one.

Another thing that annoys me to see, all faders
sitting at unity or/and above..
THEN having the masters pulled down 6db+ so that
the meters on output are too high...???!!
They're slamming the internal mix bus to HELL and dont
even know it!
Some desks have the headroom for that sure,
but i see it and hear it done on desks where the whole mix
is 'collapsed' because of it.

Wow. Live soundman love to bag each other.
It's great! :)

First off, you need a little respect, which you cannot buy.

Secondly you need to think things through.

Typically I do not need the 160db spl that running the masters at 0 (unity) will give me so I turn them down.

Are you going to set your gain for the kick, snare, hi hat and vocals all at 0db according to your PFL meters and then use your faders to mix in the right amount?

Don't trade in your Hobbit prostheses just yet, Cap'n Chook.

[CaptainHook]

First off, you need a little respect, which you cannot buy.

I could give a damn who respected me.
I respect others though..


Secondly you need to think things through.

Typically I do not need the 160db spl that running the masters at 0 (unity) will give me so I turn them down.


So.. all your channel faders are at 0, your gains are set well low
to not clip the mix buss that sending 24+ channels at unity
would do if each channel pre was being optimized (unless ya
desk has copious amounts of headroom) , and your
master fader is turned down...?

If that works for you, then awesome.
I dont doubt you can make your live mixes sound great.
But for me, i'd rather have a rig setup for the venue so with the masters
at unity, i wasn't putting out 160db, (i like headroom but
even i dont need that..) optimize the pres, and mix with
the faders. That's fun part for me. Moving the faders during
the live mix. Not just for solos.
But that's just how i hear music.


Are you going to set your gain for the kick, snare, hi hat and vocals all at 0db according to your PFL meters and then use your faders to mix in the right amount?

Yeah. Do it in the studio every day too.
Sometimes run the pre hotter/softer depending on the
instrument and how the particular pre reacts and what i want
but essentially yes..

What else are the faders for?

Do you set up mix balances with your gain controls then?


Don't trade in your Hobbit prostheses just yet, Cap'n Chook.

I wasn't making a personal attack against you, but if that's
how you wanna play it, you have fun in your sandbox and
i'll stay out of it.

[bunnerabb]

Let's play nice.

This aint the basement.

Look.. I do a couple hundred well received shows a year.

I run my submasters and 2 buss at unity, my gain scheduling is spot on and I aint anywhere near ear death level.

If unity automatically tears your head off something downstream is wrong.

I am neither a hack nor an idjit.

And I'd rather cascade to unity out than pull the mains back and drive the summing amps into "I gotta take a piss real bad" level.

[Jason Phair]

Look.. I do a couple hundred well received shows a year.

I run my submasters and 2 buss at unity, my gain scheduling is spot on and I aint anywhere near ear death level.

If unity automatically tears your head off something downstream is wrong.

I am neither a hack nor an idjit.



You're also on a permanent (or at least semi-permanent) installed rig though, right? It's designed and setup specifically FOR that room?

Mac's coming into whatever the provider has given him. He's most times getting a big rig...more for coverage/quality purposes than volume, especially given that style of music, and the venues he's playing. If he set your gain so it's hitting zero on the pfl, then faders at unity, then masters at unity, people would be dying. Or at the very least demanding their money back.



We seem to have all agreed that we need a baseball bat. Now we're debating ash vs maple, 34oz vs 36oz, and the brand of tape for the handle.

[bunnerabb]

Mac's coming into whatever the provider has given him. He's most times getting a big rig...more for coverage/quality purposes than volume.

Often, so am I. but If you're at unity out you can bring the front end up to where you need it?

I mean.. those knobs do all go to off, I think.

[CaptainHook]

My prob isn't with people who pull the masters down...

It's when people pull the masters down but are slamming
the summing/mix bus with all faders at 0 AND/OR higher.

But if all your faders are at 0, and the gains on your mic pres
are low, you're prob not slamming anything..

There's plenty of shows i've done where i've had to keep
ALL faders pretty low including the masters. I appreciate
someone setup the rig for ample headroom but..
Although the faders aren't where i'd like them, the mic
pre's are getting worked how i like, so i'm happy.
I'd rather turn some faders down for me than get
the system tech to change somewhere else in the
setup so i can run the outs at unity. Some techs
can be bigger assholes than soundmen. :P

The devil's in the details huh?
Coated Ambassadors vs pinstripe vs whatever..
If it matters to you... why not? ;)

[bunnerabb]

My prob isn't with people who pull the masters down...

It's when people pull the masters down but are slamming
the summing/mix bus with all faders at 0 AND/OR higher.

It's called bad gain staging and it's my beef, too.. Not whether or not running the summing buss lower is a good idea.

[CaptainHook]

It's called bad gain staging and it's my beef, too.. Not whether or not running the summing buss lower is a good idea.

Agreed.
As with every stage, some desks LIKE the slap in the face
by pushing the summing buss..
I think really only the seasoned pros can hear/know the difference though.

Most live guys are in different rooms with different setups/bands
every night and its hard to get a handle on what is making a
REAL difference in the chain from performer -> what you hear in that situation.

It's 'easier' in the studio in some ways as a lot of times the
difference is the change of what's in front of the mic but it
still takes TIME and EXPERIMENTING to recognize.

Such luxuries are a rarity in live sound.

[macfeedback]

Let's play nice.

This aint the basement.

Look.. I do a couple hundred well received shows a year.

I run my submasters and 2 buss at unity, my gain scheduling is spot on and I aint anywhere near ear death level.

If unity automatically tears your head off something downstream is wrong.

I am neither a hack nor an idjit.

And I'd rather cascade to unity out than pull the mains back and drive the summing amps into "I gotta take a piss real bad" level.

Well, Sir, I do a couple of hundred extremely well received shows a year also. Usually a different rig and venue each night, often different countries. Methinks I am in a VASTLY different league to you.

You live in your tightly controlled little venue, good on you. Your concept of "unity" has nothing to do with the real world.

I deal with rigs that have headroom up the ying yang, from the front to the rear. I can afford to stay out of the red, I can drive the pres in their comfort zone, summing amps can concentrate on summing not amping, I can even afford to let them little needles on the VU meters take a break. I can afford to.......... "gasp"....................... TURN DOWN!

Now I don't want to be telling some guy who is neither a hack nor an idjit that I believe I am a little better qualified than he is, no Sir, because that might imply that I soundly believe he protests to much.

[macfeedback]

Often, so am I. but If you're at unity out you can bring the front end up to where you need it?

I mean.. those knobs do all go to off, I think.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Do you have any concept of gain structure?

Do you even realize that your ultimate gain will depend upon the number of boxes pushing the available air in your room?

You think that one sets the console to unity and then works through the signal processing setting unity, then the crossovers followed by the power amps?

You are delusional.

[macfeedback]

My prob isn't with people who pull the masters down...

It's when people pull the masters down but are slamming
the summing/mix bus with all faders at 0 AND/OR higher.

But if all your faders are at 0, and the gains on your mic pres
are low, you're prob not slamming anything..

There's plenty of shows i've done where i've had to keep
ALL faders pretty low including the masters. I appreciate
someone setup the rig for ample headroom but..
Although the faders aren't where i'd like them, the mic
pre's are getting worked how i like, so i'm happy.
I'd rather turn some faders down for me than get
the system tech to change somewhere else in the
setup so i can run the outs at unity. Some techs
can be bigger assholes than soundmen. :P

The devil's in the details huh?
Coated Ambassadors vs pinstripe vs whatever..
If it matters to you... why not? ;)

You, Kiwi, need to get yourself a sense of humor.

Actually, you are not alone in that matter on this forum, jeez!

What a sour bunch for the most part.

System techs should be bigger arseholes than soundguys when required. After all they know their rigs. (Or should)

You whacks can drive everything at UNITY but if is going to take out drivers then the system tech will be neglecting his duties if he doesn't bring the amps below UNITY.

After all the system tech wants his rig working at the next gig with minimal financial upkeep or his boss will fire his arse.

[CaptainHook]

You, Kiwi, need to get yourself a sense of humor.

Hey now, most of what i say is purposely complete
bollocks for (mainly my own) enjoyment.
But yeah i'm gonna vent.
And yeah i'm gonna throw my toys if you can do it too. :Coolio:

System techs should be bigger arseholes than soundguys when required. After all they know their rigs. (Or should)

Too many i meet are just assholes.
SOMETIMES they know their rig.
SOME of them are real good at what they do.
Many. Just assholes.
Which makes me more of an asshole. :Wink:


You whacks can drive everything at UNITY but if is going to take out drivers then the system tech will be neglecting his duties if he doesn't bring the amps below UNITY.

Isn't that what bunner was suggesting?
And then you went on to call him delusional?
Either way, i've already said i'll just turn the
shit down.

We're almost debating semantics here, next step we'll
be nit-picking that the WAY someone made their
point is invalid, therefore the actual point is invalid.
That's what i do with my friends for shits and giggles
OFF the wireweb.

Fuck it. If someone's gain staging is utterly and completely
fucking wrong in every aspect, but their mix out front
is blowing minds and not gear/ears, i'll pat him on the back and
tell him good mix. The shit only bothers me when the mix
sucks ON TOP of red lights flashing more on the desk
than the lighting show on stage.

End.

I agree. Bit more of having a laugh at each other
and less ego's would be nice, but that wouldn't be
the womb/mixerman way, now would it? :grin:

Or WAS that the marsh way?

[bunnerabb]

Methinks I am in a VASTLY different league to you.

I chose the "league" I'm in. I like going home every night instead of climbing on a bus

A lot.

I am not some monkey whio lucked into a bar gig. I like where I am after 30 years before the mast.

I know how gain works, I am not delusional, I know what boxes do in rooms, depending on those boxes, that room, etc...

I've worked with "It's all about moving air, dude!" cats.

They may have a functional sense of gain structure, but they're also half deaf.

If this is just going to turn into one of those "Dude you don't know anything because I know the one true way!", crock of shit internet arguments, I think I'll sit this one out.

Over here.

In my "little league" gig.

Where the checks are clearing like a motherfucker and I don't have to live in hotels and Prevosts full of coke addled, posturing badasses.:)

Been there.

Done that.

Got the T-Shirt.

Got the board game.

Meh...

[Jason Phair]

Isn't that what bunner was suggesting?
And then you went on to call him delusional?
Either way, i've already said i'll just turn the
shit down.

It's not the mixer's job to go through and set gain all the way up to the amps. It's the tech's. I do it all the fucking time.


[quote]
Fuck it. If someone's gain staging is utterly and completely
fucking wrong in every aspect, but their mix out front
is blowing minds and not gear/ears, i'll pat him on the back and
tell him good mix. The shit only bothers me when the mix
sucks ON TOP of red lights flashing more on the desk
than the lighting show on stage.

End.



The question here is, can they recreate their own magic trick 5 nights a week on a wildly different rig and have it sound the same every time?

[ggunn]

So exactly what are the best positions for those deck chairs? ;^)

[CaptainHook]

It's not the mixer's job to go through and set gain all the way up to the amps. It's the tech's. I do it all the fucking time.


It's nice to know people are doing their jobs, and
doing them well..

But when i've asked SOME techs to adjust something
like that, the response has varied from..
"Go fuck yourself, i know my rig and i've already
set it up right!, you turn the masters down on the
desk - thats YOUR job!"
to
"Oh.. yeah... i couuuuld to that..." - (2 hours later it happens)
to the rare
"Sure, are you happy with everything else?"

It's faster and easier for me to just turn the shit
down on the desk most of the time..


The question here is, can they recreate their own magic trick 5 nights a week on a wildly different rig and have it sound the same every time?

Yeah exactly..
And i think it's actually the varying sound quality/characteristics/responsiveness
of the room(s) that fries their ass the most, and gives away
the fact there's just some dude behind the curtain, with
really no magic at all.

[macfeedback]

I chose the "league" I'm in. I like going home every night instead of climbing on a bus

A lot.

I am not some monkey whio lucked into a bar gig. I like where I am after 30 years before the mast.

I know how gain works, I am not delusional, I know what boxes do in rooms, depending on those boxes, that room, etc...

I've worked with "It's all about moving air, dude!" cats.

They may have a functional sense of gain structure, but they're also half deaf.

If this is just going to turn into one of those "Dude you don't know anything because I know the one true way!", crock of shit internet arguments, I think I'll sit this one out.

Over here.

In my "little league" gig.

Where the checks are clearing like a motherfucker and I don't have to live in hotels and Prevosts full of coke addled, posturing badasses.:)

Been there.

Done that.

Got the T-Shirt.

Got the board game.

Meh...

The last bus I saw was an Airbus.

The last jackass I saw on the Internook will not be the last.

Sadly, it might be you, Bunnerblab.

[bunnerabb]

You know.. I like this place.

As far as your "big time cred" I've never seen too many people who were at the top of their game spemding too much time trying to convince everybody else that they weren't.

You know?

I recall those people being too busy to bother.

I am.

I don't know what I'm talking about because YOU say so and YOU get on more airplanes than I do?

Oh, Prunella.

You're a troll. Crashing bore. 6th grade insults cause "you da man". Well, well...

And as such you don't exist on my screen anymore.

Meh.

[santeri]

Fight, fight!






PS. MFB, Kalle sends his warmest regards to Doris.

[freepatriot]

Great, now I don't know who to listen to for info anymore :(

[Jason Phair]

Great, now I don't know who to listen to for info anymore :(

Don't listen to any of us fucking jokers in here. Go out and do it and form your own opinion.

Then come back and tell us how we were all wrong.

[CaptainHook]

Great, now I don't know who to listen to for info anymore :(

I personally wouldn't listen to me about anything.
Unless you wanna know how to get into a fight.
I can also show you what NOT to do in just about
any application.

[freepatriot]

:D

[Droolbucket]

All other things being equal, the sound man who lights up the most blinky lights wins.
I mean, why would a manufacturer put them on there if they weren't meant to be used?
I know I've achieved the perfect mix when I get every single light on the board to light up. :Wink:



Hey, I smell smoke too! Do you want anything from the bar? I need to get another beer. I tell 'em I'm with the band, and I get cheap beer for FREE! :Surprised: That smoke smell is getting stronger.... they need to do something about the ventilation in this place.


Droolbucket

[ggunn]

Wow, and you wonder how sound guys get the rep of being hard-headed assholes... ;^)

[macfeedback]

All other things being equal, the sound man who lights up the most blinky lights wins.
I mean, why would a manufacturer put them on there if they weren't meant to be used?
I know I've achieved the perfect mix when I get every single light on the board to light up. :Wink:



Hey, I smell smoke too! Do you want anything from the bar? I need to get another beer. I tell 'em I'm with the band, and I get cheap beer for FREE! :Surprised: That smoke smell is getting stronger.... they need to do something about the ventilation in this place.


Droolbucket

DO NOT LIGHT THE RED ONES!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Swafford]

So when I plug the xlr thingies that go from my well thumped booger coated cock module into the back of my 8 channel mackie, do the green lights mean go, the yellow slow down (or in Boston speak "speed up!") and the red stop (or, like my Cali Pal'ys, "just keep fucking going"? And what's that little knob on top of each xlr thingys home do?

Do you guys shit out of your assholes, like me, or do you have the hired help shit for you? I know, shitting is so messy! But I tell you, I got these special wipes for my 3 year old, and I can get all the shit off my rim so later, it doesn't burn. It was getting tiring looking at my asshole with a dental mirror just to make sure I was clean. What, exactly, is the American home buidlers reluctance to embrace the asshole washing system the Euros use? Christ, I'd rather shit out back of the barn and wipe my ass with snow and ice then use toilet paper, din't are founding fathers use paper? Look how far we've come? My three year old calls me poopie (yeah, with an ie, not a y) pants. I'm pretty damn tired of it. She's the one with the fucking diaper.

[Droolbucket]

So when I plug the xlr thingies that go from my well thumped booger coated cock module into the back of my 8 channel mackie, do the green lights mean go, the yellow slow down (or in Boston speak "speed up!") and the red stop (or, like my Cali Pal'ys, "just keep fucking going"? And what's that little knob on top of each xlr thingys home do?

Do you guys shit out of your assholes, like me, or do you have the hired help shit for you? I know, shitting is so messy! But I tell you, I got these special wipes for my 3 year old, and I can get all the shit off my rim so later, it doesn't burn. It was getting tiring looking at my asshole with a dental mirror just to make sure I was clean. What, exactly, is the American home buidlers reluctance to embrace the asshole washing system the Euros use? Christ, I'd rather shit out back of the barn and wipe my ass with snow and ice then use toilet paper, din't are founding fathers use paper? Look how far we've come? My three year old calls me poopie (yeah, with an ie, not a y) pants. I'm pretty damn tired of it. She's the one with the fucking diaper.

Hey, how are the new meds working out for you, Swaffie?:very happy:
I prefer heavy compression when taking a dump, but I don't recommend brick wall limiting.... it leaves embarrassing welts and skid marks.
If you use cheap toilet paper, you'll end up with digital clipping.:Uh oh:

Droolbucket

[Swafford]

Hey, how are the new meds working out for you, Swaffie?:very happy:

Meds is all gone....all gone. Which one of you well connected, fulltime working, A List, rock and roll motherfuckers are gonna hook me up with some of that weed? I'm tired of eating these antiinflamation pills and pretending I'm getting high and stupid. My fucking elbow hurts anyway, with or without them. I hate my fucking doctor. Whore. "Can you give me something for the pain?" "Sure, here's something that will reduce the inflamation." "No the pain, shit head. I want to treat the goddamn pain".

[pounce]

so the show i'm doing now has an orchestra, choirs, and many solo singers on a variety of mics from hand held to headworn and whatnot.

so while i articulated a way of thinking about gain that is a good conceptual start, i thought i'd offer up the idea that in reality, in this show especially, putting up a fader to unity and starting with gain all the way down and slowly increasing gain until you've got a good workable average volume is working best. this approach uses less gain than if i tried to do it some other way, but gives maximum headroom and keeps stuff from feeding back, even with quite a few mics on stage.

thought i'd chime in again adding this comment. so while i offered up a concept earlier that helps one to imagine the point of gain staging, i think that method would work better in the studio and live it would tend to reduce headroom and be feeback prone. this way fixes those issues and gives you maximum flexibility on the faders. it's working great for me in this show. even with the gain pots down pretty low, i'm still finding some select singers plenty loud on their mics and i've been using some compressor channels to babysit the highly variable volumes i'm getting. point is that the show is plenty loud and then some with the gain lower like this, so i'm definately an advocate of the put the faders up to unity and add gain till it's the right volume for a live venue.