hihat and snare in rock mix, thoughts

[airborne]

Hi, guys. I'm new here so I thought I'd introduce myself by saying it's cool to be able to choose a fly as post icon. :lol:

As a starting post I was curious to ask you guys about different hihat/snare configurations in rock/metal mix. Talking about open hats here. You get mixes where the hats and snare seem very separate, with the snare being big, powerful and upfront and the hats being very much a continous washy sound in the background, and the mixes where the snare and the hihat are more involved with each other. Approaches on tracking and mixing these two extremes / views on suitability etc? Spill renders the former approach very hard, even with gating, and I've heard of people gating off all but the very front of the snare hits and then trying to "regenerate" the rest of the waveform with controlled reverb/ambience programs in an attempt to achieve this separation. Thoughts on this?

I know this all sounds a bit vague, I'm not really asking anything in particular. The thread structure in this forum, where the experienced guys go off on tangents based on a vague initial post seems very appealing and very informative :lol: Just curious to hear what you guys have to say about this.

[volthause]

I'd be willing to bet the recordings that you've heard where the hi hat and snare were nicely separated, that the snare was being triggered / replaced, ala drumagog or the like.

I have never personally found an effective way of keeping the washy hi hats out of a snare track of a metal style song. Finesse on the hi hats doesn't seem to be a concern at all to the guys playing these blast-beats.

Sample replacement/augmentation is a life-saver for me in situations like that.

[Comte de St Germain]

Yeah and I've found triggering a sample that YOU made from the original snare can be just the ticket.

I use Apptrigga which is inexpensive and powerful.

[djui5]

I'd be willing to bet the recordings that you've heard where the hi hat and snare were nicely separated, that the snare was being triggered / replaced, ala drumagog or the like.


Not always my friend. Mic placement can give you some insane separation.

With that being said. I really love tracks where the HH, Snare, and Kick all play well together. Filters "Hey Man, Nice Shot" is the utmost prime example of this. This is a combo of proper mic technique, great room, and the right mix.

[malice]

the use of hyper cardioid patern mics can help as well

malice

[Skwaidu]

Yeah and I've found triggering a sample that YOU made from the original snare can be just the ticket.


Ditto.

Before any samples though, *Try* to get some separation when recording... Some clever sn top mic goboing can be done and mic placement and pickup pattern matter but it *mostly* boils down to the drummer and his/her balance... Sheesh.

[airborne]

Yeah, a lot of it is the drummer. A huge part of drum sounds in general is the drummer..

As for samples I can't really tell the difference between well-done sample replacement and clean, careful miking. I always suspected the techniques being used were sample replacement or some other wacky complicated gate-based approach though...

[Mixerman]

Hi, guys. I'm new here so I thought I'd introduce myself by saying it's cool to be able to choose a fly as post icon. :lol:

As a starting post I was curious to ask you guys about different hihat/snare configurations in rock/metal mix. Talking about open hats here. You get mixes where the hats and snare seem very separate, with the snare being big, powerful and upfront and the hats being very much a continous washy sound in the background, and the mixes where the snare and the hihat are more involved with each other. Approaches on tracking and mixing these two extremes / views on suitability etc? Spill renders the former approach very hard, even with gating, and I've heard of people gating off all but the very front of the snare hits and then trying to "regenerate" the rest of the waveform with controlled reverb/ambience programs in an attempt to achieve this separation. Thoughts on this?

I know this all sounds a bit vague, I'm not really asking anything in particular. The thread structure in this forum, where the experienced guys go off on tangents based on a vague initial post seems very appealing and very informative :lol: Just curious to hear what you guys have to say about this.

It's mostly a matter of the drummer's balance. I can pretty much assure you, that the best drum recordings are done with the best drummers. I can get drum sounds with Matt Chamberlain, John Robbinson, Jim Keltner, or any number of other top drummers in about 10 minutes flat. Young band drummers with little to no ability can take up to half a day just to get tones. After the first 10 minutes, we're doing damage control by changing out pieces of the kit, using materials to alter how the kit reacts, (this is all source management and manipulation), use of compressors, EQ, micpre gain, mic placement, mic blocking devices (like a tunnel from the kik drum for cymbal bleed reduction).

Then there's the editing sessions, and the possible use of sample replacement, but you can't include that in the half day. For the record, I hate sample replacement, and to date, I have never worked on drum tones with that possibility in mind. To me, that would be destructive to the process of getting tones. That said, if I listen back the next day, and I'm massively dissapointed, then all bets are off and all possibilities are on the table.

Mixerman

[ajcamlet]

It's mostly a matter of the drummer's balance. I can pretty much assure you, that the best drum recordings are done with the best drummers. I can get drum sounds with Matt Chamberlain, John Robbinson, Jim Keltner, or any number of other top drummers in about 10 minutes flat. Young band drummers with little to no ability can take up to half a day just to get tones. After the first 10 minutes, we're doing damage control by changing out pieces of the kit, using materials to alter how the kit reacts, (this is all source management and manipulation), use of compressors, EQ, micpre gain, mic placement, mic blocking devices (like a tunnel from the kik drum for cymbal bleed reduction).

Then there's the editing sessions, and the possible use of sample replacement, but you can't include that in the half day. For the record, I hate sample replacement, and to date, I have never worked on drum tones with that possibility in mind. To me, that would be destructive to the process of getting tones. That said, if I listen back the next day, and I'm massively dissapointed, then all bets are off and all possibilities are on the table.

Mixerman

Don't you use (by todays standards) relatively few mics on the drums? i seem to remember you saying something about using maybe only 4 or 5 or something like that....

...or am i on PCP?

a

[malice]

For the record, I hate sample replacement, and to date, I have never worked on drum tones with that possibility in mind. To me, that would be destructive to the process of getting tones. That said, if I listen back the next day, and I'm massively dissapointed, then all bets are off and all possibilities are on the table.

Mixerman

I hate drum replacement. But I think the Comte is refeering to the use of the drummer own tones (that you sample after a take ie).

Although i still don't like it, it can save your ass.

I do agree about working with good drummer. I especially hates a drummer that hit the HH to loud.

If the Hhat are to loud when you listen to the drummer in the room, you're in trouble.

malice

[airborne]

Don't you use (by todays standards) relatively few mics on the drums? i seem to remember you saying something about using maybe only 4 or 5 or something like that....

Seem to recall he used 6 on the bitch slap session? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Comte de St Germain]

Yeah, I don't ever go into a tracking session with samples in mind.

OTOH I have an album with one song where the snare mic falls victim to a bad patch connection and although the OHs carry much of it when it comes to the chorus' i need the sample to give the required push when the big guitars scream in.

I grab samples of all sessions just in case I get a missed hit or the above occurs. Besides, now we have a ton of snare/kik samples to use on our solo RAP productions. Cough cough.

[malice]

Seem to recall he used 6 on the bitch slap session? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, two room, ohead, bass, snare ...

Something like this

did killer drums with less.

malice

[airborne]

In your opinion, Mixerman, how crucial are the room mics compared to everything else that contributes to the final kit sound in the kind of music you do? I'm not very experienced in their use and since you've used two room but one overhead only they're more important that I thought. How often do engineers get their stereo image from the room as opposed to the overheads?

[Mixerman]

In your opinion, Mixerman, how crucial are the room mics compared to everything else that contributes to the final kit sound in the kind of music you do? I'm not very experienced in their use and since you've used two room but one overhead only they're more important that I thought. How often do engineers get their stereo image from the room as opposed to the overheads?

I think you're confusing me with those guys that made the drum recording video. I can't recall ever using one overhead for drums. Mighta happened, but if it did, they were mono drums.

Just wanted to straighten that little misconception out. I'll be back later when I can figure out in which Mixerman Radio Show segment I discuss this in great detail.

Mixerman

[lofi studios]

wheres your answer?

hello gods of the console, my name is Iain, and im a musaholic.

first step compleated .....

i have just set up a studio in order to allow small bands and inexperienced engineers somwhere to practice the art of noise (punk, rock and metal only i'm afraid:grin: )...

and promtly been coerced into recording a charity album for a local music kickstarter who suffered horrific injuries in a m/bike crash 6 months ago....

although quality is secondary in this endevour, i do want to domy best, so as a first post to the fair womb, i want to appologise for the impending barrage of simplistic questions forthcoming from the uk fool!!

respect

Iain

[Brendo]

I think you're confusing me with those guys that maade the drum recording video. I can't recall ever using one overhead for drums. Mighta happened, but if it did, they were mono drums.

Just wanted to straighten that little misconception out. I'll be back later when I can figure out which Mixerman Radio Show segment I discuss this in great detail.

Mixerman

I think he was referring to Malice's post - he says "Overhead" instead of "Overheads" but clearly if you add up the mics he lists it comes to 5, which probably means he meant two overheads, which this poster didn't pick up on.

[Mixerman]

In your opinion, Mixerman, how crucial are the room mics compared to everything else that contributes to the final kit sound in the kind of music you do? I'm not very experienced in their use and since you've used two room but one overhead only they're more important that I thought. How often do engineers get their stereo image from the room as opposed to the overheads?

Airborne, please download the Crunch call from the Mixerman Radio Show Starring Slipperman and Aardvark (attached here). At the 8 minute point, I discuss this exact subject.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[malice]

I think he was referring to Malice's post - he says "Overhead" instead of "Overheads" but clearly if you add up the mics he lists it comes to 5, which probably means he meant two overheads, which this poster didn't pick up on.

Aaaah, you see, one small typo, and the sentence is meaningless, leading to confusion.

"Overheads" it is.

2 OHs + 2 room + Bd and Sd = 6

you can often get away without micing the toms and the HH.

malice

[airborne]

I think he was referring to Malice's post - he says "Overhead" instead of "Overheads" but clearly if you add up the mics he lists it comes to 5, which probably means he meant two overheads, which this poster didn't pick up on.

shiat. My bad. Failed to count up :lol: Everyone forget that...

edit-thanks a lot for the link, mixerman. The radio episode was really helpful.