Amplifying acoustic guits that have pickups

[dikledoux]

What works, what doesn't? I've looked at many amps that are billed as acoustic guitar amps and they just look/sound fishy. I'm thinking about going with a 12" powered speaker instead.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

TIA

dik

[Droolbucket]

I use a little Crate amp, can't remember the model number, but it's got 2 8" speakers and a tweeter. The newer ones have built-in digital effects, but mine just has reverb and chorus. It works pretty well... has a notch filter, a graphic, and 3 channels. One channel is a dedicated acoustic guitar channel, one has an XLR input, and one has a 1/4" input and volume. It also has an XLR out on the back, with adjustable gain for DI-ing into the PA.
The coolest thing about it is it has a beveled bottom so it will stand straight, or tilt back, without an additional stand. Nice touch. You can see it in front of the drummer in this pic.
It's not for the corksniffers, but it gets the job done for me.
Droolbucket

[G. Hoffman]

One of the guys in the shop has that Crate Acoustic amp, and it's fine. We also have a Fishman Loud Box that they sent us when they first came out, which is pretty cool. The BEST sounding "acoustic" amp I've ever heard, though, is that first Trace Elliot that came out back in the 90's. It had like six or eight little 3-4 inch speakers, and it was killer. It actually sounded like an acoustic guitar (not MY guitar, mind you, but still...) Nice unit, but I don't think they are making them anymore.


Gabriel

[rockdart]

I have to DI mine because of the way the E and D resonate MASSIVELY through the guitar. I don't even put it through the monitors - I have to rely on the mains.

It's an Ovation Tangent T357.

I test drove it for about 1/2 hr before I bought it and I really wish now I hadn't.

I don't recommend this guitar for anyone who will want to amplify an accoustic. I feel so strongly about this that I haven't sold it for not wanting the negative karma that would be associating with saddling somebody else with it.

I've 3 accoustic guitars and only this one has pick-ups, so I'm stuck bringing it out to play live.

I think I'm going to try to dampen it somehow, but I've never really researched it. I haven't really had to - we took the song off the setlist 2 years ago. It's rediculous - it's one of our better reaction songs.

[Tim Armstrong]

We run my brother's Martin D-41 through a Fishman Rare Earth pickup into an L.R. Baggs para DI into the PA system. We put a little back into the monitors, and generally have no feedback problems. Sounds like a nice acoustic guitar (but for quiet duo gigs, a nice SDC sounds better!).

No stinkin' "acoustic" amps for us!!!

Cheers, Tim

[G. Hoffman]

I think I'm going to try to dampen it somehow, but I've never really researched it. I haven't really had to - we took the song off the setlist 2 years ago. It's rediculous - it's one of our better reaction songs.



First of all, you can get a good pickup put in any guitar. Check out the Fishman Matrix (http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=24) (I prefer the Natural I), or if you really want to drive yourself (or at least your sound guy) nuts, get the Ellipse Matrix Blend (http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=86) (which has a mic in addition to the undersaddle pickup). Or if you just want some controls on your guitar for some reason, then you could go with the Ellipse VT (http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=87), which is nice. There are also a lot of other very nice pickups on the market, but I know the Fishman stuff best because it is what I sell the most of.

Second, you could always try a feedback buster. They really do work, though they are not a perfect solution. Oh, and they wouldn't work real well with the Ellipse units, cause they would cover the controls.


Gabriel

[dikledoux]

I actually have that Fishman Natural I that I put in an old Fender Santa Rosa. That guitar isn't available anymore, probably because the stock pickup system was so crackly and horrible. But it plays wonderfully and with the pickup replaced it's a nice guitar to have around.

It's one hot pickup, though... Damn. At least it is on my guitar.

dik

[Scodiddly]

Depending on the pickup, something like a Baggs or Fishman DI might make a huge improvement due to the impedance matching. Some/most "acoustic" amps have an appropriately high-impedance (5-10Mohm) as well. A lot of the "piezo quack" comes from impedance mismatch, driving a lower impedance input from a piezo.

[dikledoux]

Depending on the pickup, something like a Baggs or Fishman DI might make a huge improvement due to the impedance matching. Some/most "acoustic" amps have an appropriately high-impedance (5-10Mohm) as well. A lot of the "piezo quack" comes from impedance mismatch, driving a lower impedance input from a piezo.
Thanks Sco... I'll be considering that as I make choices. I'm thinking about a powered 12" PA speaker... and I'd place a preamp-DI in front of that for EQ control - but it looks like that's not the only thing I'll accomplish doing this.

dil

[FredSanford]

Being a traditional flamenco guitarist I have in the past always used mics live instead of pickup because nothing was convincing or comfortable enough for me. I have tried many pickup setups over the years and I have found 2 that work well for me and over the last year have started using them in even the most critical performances to great success. It is a 2 part system that requires some time getting the eq right but afterwards you store a preset and you are off to the races.....

Here goes. K & K Pure Classic (or western for steel string)passive pickup. I have also used a B-Band A10 system, but I prefer the K&K because it doesn't use a battery, has plenty of output and doesn't require me to cut a big hole in the side of my guitar. The K & K also doesn't break up when I really dig in which is still small problem with the B-Band setup. Furthermore, the K&K is very simple to install. Okay here is where things get interesting.....I run the guitar to a Yamaha MagicStomp Acoustic pedal. I started my tweaking adventures with the Nylon string 1 and 2 presets. There are a lot more choices for steelstring. I set up a nice condenser in the studio and connect that and the output of the MagicStomp to my DAW (Logic) each to ist own channel of course. Record both signals and EQ the pickup to sound more or less like the mic.
I keep the mic completely flat so in the end whoever has to deal with this signal has the flexibility to as they need. Next I let Match EQ (logic eq plugin) have a shot at it. After it analyzes the 2 recordings and applies its curve to the pickup/magicstomp signal I slide the smoothing control in the plug down and make a note of the curve it displays. I go back and listen to both my eq and MatchEQ's versions and decide which I like better. from there I go to the magicstomps EQ section and dial in that EQ and save it as a preset. From there I save several different versions of the preset some louder some softer some with effects, some dry.

My impression of this setup is I will sum up this way. Its not better than a mic. I has much less tendancy for feedback than a mic. It sounds a lot more like a mic than just the pickup alone. At loud volumes the differences don't matter as much anyway. The pickup cuts through better than the mic. I like it.
I use it. I have a drawer full of crap that didn't work and I am happy to have found something that works for me.:)

Alrenatives........The Fishman Aura system is similar but it has tracking problems when using soundboard transducers. If you are using an Undersaddle pickup only it is a very convincing alternative. I need the ablitlity as a flamenco guitarist to pickup all of the percussive tapping that is essential to that style of guitar playing so I use a soundboard transducer and the MagicStomp Acoustic which has no trouble tracking the K&K or B-Band pickups. I am positve that in the near future we will have betterl modelers than the 2 I have mentioned here and this scenario will improve over time. I have attached a recording I did with the B-Band/MagicStomp Acoustic system in case anybody cares to hear it. Please pardon the crappy percussion loop it was just a click track and I was using this as a guide track to begin production on a song for a friend that has never been finished. It is more of a latin jazz thing than flamenco but I think you can get the idea of what the system can produce from the example. Since it uses the B-Band setup you can hear the signal breakup on a couple notes here and there. This does not happen with the K&K pickup. I am not an endorsee of either of these companies. I hope this helps someone out there get a better acoustic sound and perhaps someone can refine this idea into something better or maybe someone can develop a completely new concept that works better. Until then I will keep using this one. Oh yes and one final thing......whithout the MagicStomp Acoustic (Modeler) both of these pickups sound horrible to me.

[dikledoux]

FredSanford... I like the way that sounds. But I should probably explain that I'm not necessarily looking for a realistic sound. My acoustic electric is pretty much a solid body (it's wierd) and I don't expect to get a normal acoustic guitar sound out of it - or go through heroic efforts to that end. Just looking for something that'll work with my pickup situation, sound good in its own right and give me enough volume for medium loud band settings.

The other difference is that apparently you can actually PLAY guitar, while I'm a masher mostly trying to remember the chord changes. :lol:

dik

[FredSanford]

Dik,

I imagine the Yamaha box will help out the tone of the pickup a lot regardless of style. The system I detailed gets very, very loud. I opened for Santana a couple of weeks ago using it. Trust me it gets as loud as you need it or more without feedback. The box has a feedback zapper if you run into trouble. It has a blend knob so you can blend between pickup and modeling, so if you need to add some piezo quack to cut through just dial it in and save the preset. Makes set up nearly effortless. Saves a load of time in the end...after you nail down your prefered settings. You can do it all by ear if you don't want to go through all the EQ analization BS I described before. I just wanted to nail it down the best I could using all of my resources and I am pleased with outcome. The box is only $150 - $200 and is well worth it. It gets rid of qauck. They should call it the de-quacker. I saw the post and have had quite a bit of experience on the matter and have bought a ton of shit that didn't really work and I thought I would share.
You guys have really been helping me out and I just wanted to try and return the fav.

[dikledoux]

FredS - Thanks for the heads up on the Yahamama MagicStomp. Looks like another likely way to get the preamp that does the impedance matching and tone control. I will try to check it out if I can scare one up locally.

dik

[frnjplayer]

FredSanford... I like the way that sounds. But I should probably explain that I'm not necessarily looking for a realistic sound. My acoustic electric is pretty much a solid body (it's wierd) and I don't expect to get a normal acoustic guitar sound out of it - or go through heroic efforts to that end. Just looking for something that'll work with my pickup situation, sound good in its own right and give me enough volume for medium loud band settings.

The other difference is that apparently you can actually PLAY guitar, while I'm a masher mostly trying to remember the chord changes. :lol:

dik

Where and why do you need it amplified. An acoustic in a garage band practice competing with the Marshall and the SVT needs a different solution than the one in the decent practice facility or small bar with a bit of a PA system. A large live stage show is a whole new kettle of fish.
Studio??? Don't worry about it. Your piezo'd acoustic will just be erased and redone by Aardvark anyway. :very happy:

[pounce]

good info.

i have a friend who plays a few acoustic guitars and does have a drawer full of stuff that produces mixed results. good info to have here, i'm hoping he will check out that pickup so that i can hear it as well. obviously it's working for fred sanford, so i presume it will work for my buddy.

[dikledoux]

Where and why do you need it amplified. An acoustic in a garage band practice competing with the Marshall and the SVT needs a different solution than the one in the decent practice facility or small bar with a bit of a PA system. A large live stage show is a whole new kettle of fish.
Studio??? Don't worry about it. Your piezo'd acoustic will just be erased and redone by Aardvark anyway. :very happy:

Fair enough... Small to mid-size bars with a bit of PA. Any place that my Hot Rod Deluxe can handle for my elec guit, I want my acoustic to cover the same territory. So when there's a drummer playing like he means it, I can generate a sound that fills the stage nicely without me having to have guitar in the monitors crowding out vocals. I don't want to have the guitar in the monitors, basically.

dik

[frnjplayer]

Fair enough... Small to mid-size bars with a bit of PA. Any place that my Hot Rod Deluxe can handle for my elec guit, I want my acoustic to cover the same territory. So when there's a drummer playing like he means it, I can generate a sound that fills the stage nicely without me having to have guitar in the monitors crowding out vocals. I don't want to have the guitar in the monitors, basically.

dik

Schizophrenia alert!
Sound guy: I hate when they just keep adding more stage wash that fights with the FOH. Why doesn't he just get a stomp box and in ears.
Musician: FOH never seems to have enough sends to give me my own monitor mix and I really don't need my acoustic hashing up what vocal monitor I do have. He'll just have to deal with my amp!

Been in both spots myself. I would tend to walk my guitar down to my local GAS pusher and try out as many amps, stomp boxes and, yes, even the 12" powered PA speakers as they have.
See what sounds good and is loud enough. The 12 and a stomp box gives you some options if you ever end up doing the acoustic coffee house type gig as well.
If your band doesn't need the the extra onstage volume and your board supports it, a decent IEM rig with a stomp box will come in around the same $$$ and your sound tech will thank you.
In the end, trust your ears.

How's that for fence sitting.

[ggunn]

Second, you could always try a feedback buster. They really do work, though they are not a perfect solution.
I just googled that guitar, and I see that it has 4 soundholes, all different sizes.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ovation-Tangent-Series-T357-AcousticElectric-Guitar?sku=513625

[G. Hoffman]

I just googled that guitar, and I see that it has 4 soundholes, all different sizes.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ovation-Tangent-Series-T357-AcousticElectric-Guitar?sku=513625



OK, so the Feedback Buster wouldn't work so well in that situation.

Hey, I tried.

Of course, if he got a pickup in one of his OTHER guitars...


Gabriel

[ggunn]

OK, so the Feedback Buster wouldn't work so well in that situation.

Hey, I tried.

Of course, if he got a pickup in one of his OTHER guitars...


Gabriel

Don't get me wrong, I believe in them. I even found one to fit the paisley shaped sound hole in my Tacoma Thunderchief.

[dikledoux]

So I finally got an amp for my acoustic. Thought I'd follow up since everyone was so helpful with information when I was asking - it's only right that I report back. I tried out a few - two amps from Crate:
CA6110DG - a 10" speaker and tweeter at 60 watts
and
CA120DG - a 12" speaker and tweeter and 120 watts

And then... a used Fishman Loudbox - the old kind with the tri-amped 8" at 250 watts.

There are a ton of other choices, but after you spend $500-$600US on an amp, you have to jump into some serious coin to get anything that looks like it oughta deliver. I was trying to not spend more than that because I just don't play acoustic enough or well enough to merit a huge investment.

First I ordered the Crate CA120DG because I liked it ok and was a bit squeamish about buying a used amp. The Crate amp was delivered and within 20 minutes after I turned it on, the "feedback eliminator" circuit transformed into a mute button. So I'm sending it back for a refund. I wanted to like it, but any amp that craps out that quick ain't gettin' a second chance.

But the Fishman Loudbox. Holy Crap! I can't understand why this particular model is discontinued - it completely kicks butt. In retrospect I shouldn't have gone with the other amps because this one is miles ahead of the others. Very up-front sound and it manages to make my Fishman-equipped Fender Santa Rosa Acoustic/Elec sound like a guitar made outta wood and stuff. Except at earsplitting volume levels. What a deceptive little powerhouse this thing is (...it weighs a TON)! None of the half-baked bells and whistles (like bad verb, bad chorus, bad delay, bad combinations of all three, etc.). It's just got one channel with bass, mid, treble and some kind of brilliance thing that seems to do pretty much the same as the treble. And a sweepable notch filter. Since my guitar doesn't feedback (no body cavity to speak of), I use this to dial-out honky sounds that the other eq doesn't address. A simple, but useable verb, a phase switch that probably helps with some feedback issues too, and an XLR out.

Oh yeah, a very clever kick-stand arrangement to lean the amp back depending on how you place it. But this thing will fill a small club with no help from the PA whatsoever. That was the primary goal - to get my acoustic outta the monitors since there's always this trade off between what sounds good for vocals versus what sounds good for the guitars.

Bad ASS. If you find one of these on Ebay - buy it and don't think twice. Thanks for all the suggestions and info beforehand.

dik

[omikl]

Awful confession time now.

I occasionally play with my buddy's band that does "real simple shit that you can play anyhow" and have been doing for nearly six years now. We did a little festival last September and he sprung a suprise on me: "We're doing an acoustic set".

WTF?

I have electric guitars, amps and efefcts enoug to outrig a small music college, but acoustic stuff? I leave that up to the Mrs, so...

She has a Gibson Chet Atkins CE and a Fender Telecaster Classical. Both semi-hollow nylon strung piezo equipped guitars with on-board pre-amps. Ever tried playing blues lead guitar on a nylon strung guitar? You can just about bend a semi-tone if you push the B string off the other side of the fretboard.

Both non-starters then.

So what else do we have? Aha! A Seagull SE-6, with no pickup. Why did I do that? Anyhow, a bit of pleading later got me permission to fit a Dean Markley pickup with an end-pin jack socket to it, and I was good to go... Straight into the PA using a Line 6 Pod 2.0 on it's valve pre-amp setting as my DI box. It sounded reasonably ok. Fed back like you'd expect through the monitors though.

[G. Hoffman]

But the Fishman Loudbox. Holy Crap! I can't understand why this particular model is discontinued - it completely kicks butt.


Yeah, that's the one we have in the shop. Very nice. They discontinued them because they came out with some new models, which are also very nice, but which have a few more options.


Gabriel

[ggunn]

I have to DI mine because of the way the E and D resonate MASSIVELY through the guitar. I don't even put it through the monitors - I have to rely on the mains.

It's an Ovation Tangent T357.

I test drove it for about 1/2 hr before I bought it and I really wish now I hadn't.

I was going to suggest a rubber feedback buster, but then I googled up a picture of it. All those sound holes... :^(

EDIT: Wait a minute! Didn't I already say that on the other side of the record? I'd better check...<garbled backwards recording> It's all right; they're all speaking Chinese.

[Mr. dB]

A good acoustic amp is like a small PA system. You could probably assemble one from components, starting with a Baggs, Fishman, or Rane acoustic preamp, into a parametric eq, into whatever other effects or processing you "need", and finally into a decent powered PA speaker. So you'd end up with two boxes -- a rack and a speaker. It would likely perform better than any bespoke "acoustic amp", and also cost more, but at least the components could be re-purposed when you're not using it as an acoustic amp.

If the powered speaker is one that can be used as either a trap box or a wedge, so much the better.

[Droolbucket]

Originally Posted by rockdart
I have to DI mine because of the way the E and D resonate MASSIVELY through the guitar. I don't even put it through the monitors - I have to rely on the mains.

It's an Ovation Tangent T357.

I test drove it for about 1/2 hr before I bought it and I really wish now I hadn't.

Does this guitar have the round "trap door" in the back? I've got an Adamas with the 22 little soundholes on the upper bouts, and I cut a sheet of soundproofing foam shaped to fit the top. I folded it up, stuffed it in the back, then worked it back out flat again. I used the charcoal gray color so it wouldn't be TOO obvious throught the soundholes. It raised the feedback threshold quite a bit.
The drawback is, the acoustic sound of the guitar really sucks with foam inside, and it's a pain to put in and take out. If you just use the guitar live, no problem, but if you record with it or play unamplified, you'll hate it.
Droolbucket

[G. Hoffman]

The drawback is, the acoustic sound of the guitar really sucks with foam inside, and it's a pain to put in and take out. If you just use the guitar live, no problem, but if you record with it or play unamplified, you'll hate it.
Droolbucket



Yeah, but it....



Nah, I'm not gonna say it. :Roll eyes:


Gabriel

[Droolbucket]

Yeah, but it....



Nah, I'm not gonna say it. :Roll eyes:


Gabriel

Go ahead and say it, Gabe, I don't care. I realize you deal with, and build, high end guitars, and you have fantastic ears for guitar tone.
On the other hand, I was a hack guitar player trying to add an acoustic element to our live show. (Ever hear a band covering acoustic tunes with an electric guitar? AAaaaaackkkk.) Everything I'd tried up to that point howled like a drunken coon dog. That Adamas was a HUGE step up from what I'd been using. It was the first acoustic that had great action all the way up the neck. Good or bad, it had a distinct voice, and ended up being the perfect second guitar. For years I did an acoustic duet gig with another guitar player who used a conventional-bodied acoustic, and those two guitars blended very well together. The onboard electronics were stereo.... strings 1,3 and 5 were one output, and strings 2,4 and 6 were the second output. I used to put the headphones on, pan the outputs hard left and right, and finger pick ANYTHING, and laugh hysterically. Great fun.
Plus, that guitar got me laid quite a few times, and that's gotta count for something....:grin:


Droolbucket

[G. Hoffman]

Go ahead and say it, Gabe, I don't care. I realize you deal with, and build, high end guitars, and you have fantastic ears for guitar tone.
On the other hand, I was a hack guitar player trying to add an acoustic element to our live show. (Ever hear a band covering acoustic tunes with an electric guitar? AAaaaaackkkk.)



Oh, I don't have any problem with people using ovations, and their pickups are as good as most on the market. It's just that, acoustically, they kinda, well, suck. And that, too, is fine. My old elementary teacher used one in class because he didn't have to worry about it around a room full of 9-11 year olds. Makes good sense to me.

But yeah, screwing up the acoustic tone of an Ovation sorta seems redundant. I mean, why beat a dead horse, you know?





Plus, that guitar got me laid quite a few times, and that's gotta count for something....:grin:


It's more than I can say for most of my guitars, I must admit.





Gabriel

[Mr. dB]

I'm pretty sure that I've seen "guitar condoms" (rubber soundhole stoppers) for Adamas-type guitars.