Wilco, TJ Doherty, and the SM57.

[kosborne]

This is a random factoid from me, but I found it necessary to share.

TJ Doherty--producer, recording engineer, and virtuoso. Has worked with Steely Dan, The Killers, and (my favorite) Wilco. now, talk about some guitar tone--Steely Dan? Nels Cline of Wilco? Come on! Now this guy knows tone. Some of the best guitar tones I've ever heard were on Wilco's "Sky Blue Sky" album, recorded by TJ Doherty.

"There were a LOT of 57s on almost everything. We had a U87 but it didn't sound good anywhere, so I left it in the corner." - Doherty, Tape Op#70

He also mentioned that the album was recorded with a lot of API on drums and bass, Daking Mic-Pre/EQ racks for guitars, and a John Hardy M1 for Jeff Tweedy's voice. Talk about warm. Nels Cline has some seriously amazing sounds coming from his JTM45, which is one of my favorite amps of all time.

Anyone want to second this?

[weedywet]

... API on drums and bass, Daking Mic-Pre/EQ racks for guitars, and a John Hardy M1 for Jeff Tweedy's voice. Talk about warm. ...

why? were they broken?

[Pimp-X]

Chuckle.

[gronk]

It really depends on the genre...

[Tim Halligan]

I'm making popcorn.


Who wants some?


Someone save me a seat.


Cheers,
Tim

[otek]

Someone save me a seat.

I'd stick with popcorn.

Seats tend to be very tough on the gums.


otek

[Doylemusic]

why? were they broken?

Thats it? Popcorn is getting cold.

postive SM57 comments
positive Steely Dan comments
multiple brand preamp usage
and he dissed the U87

C'mon.......we paid good money for this premium channel :grin:

[weedywet]

postive SM57 comments
positive Steely Dan comments
multiple brand preamp usage
and he dissed the U87


you already know these things are all dumb


my work here is done

[dwoz]

since when is the M1 NOT a neutral pre?


dwoz

[dwoz]

Does anyone own a U87 that DOESN'T sound like it's broken?


dwoz

[weedywet]

what's a neutral pre?


every professional, who knows how to treat them, owns good sounding 87s

[Calvin]

...who knows how to treat them...

I could use a primer on the proper care and feeding of the U87, 'cause I actually do like 'em. Well, I like one of them (the only one I've used that I can recall), but back in the day it did a lot of good work on almost all of my guitar duties, and I wouldn't mind adding one to my current line-up.

[kosborne]

Okay, no Wilco fans in here, I guess. Regardless, it's a great record.

[Zoesch]

Okay, no Wilco fans in here, I guess. Regardless, it's a great record.

I only liked Yankee Hotel Foxtrot... so yeah, to each its own...

Likewise with the 57, if you try it and it works for you... fantastic! Just don't let it anywhere near weedy. Fear of spontaneous combustion and all that jazz.

[Dave Perry]

you already know these things are all dumb


my work here is done


He hasn't covered the "imaginary in-between" gradations of stereo image.

[kosborne]

Just don't let it anywhere near weedy

Ah...so that's it.

Touchy. Maybe a coffee and some pills will help.

Aside from my mere Tape Op quote, I love the U87, I've used them on just about anything and they sound great. But I mean...I enjoy owning a 57 or six. Mostly, I really enjoyed that record and how it was produced, and it was a PLEASANT surprise to me to find out how it was done.

[Dave Perry]

You, kosborne, may find that there are a few opinions thrown around on this forum. :icon_eek::icon_eek::icon_eek:

:D

[kosborne]

yeah, yeah. I've been on the forums here for a while but I have no record of my older screen name. I got a new computer recently and didn't think to save this one particular password. So, a new account was born.

the womb rears it's ugly umbilical chord once again, and it's good to be back.

[Dave Perry]

Couldn't they resend your info? I'm not sure I can remember my password either so I'm glad Firefox remembers it.

[Pacific Resonance]

I actually just went back and searched old posts to see if my name looked familiar, and sure enough, I found it. well here we are. tried 4 passwords, and finally got it on the 5th. good thing.

[Dave Perry]

Ah, well nice to meet you again. :grin::Thumbsup:

[Pacific Resonance]

:Thumbsup:

[MGMc]

"Sky Blue Sky" is a fantastic sounding album. Warm and inviting and it sounds familiar on the first play. Old friend familiar, not cliché familiar.

So, yeah the '57s strike me as kind of odd too, but as I understand it a dynamic will take on a whole new dimension with a great pre.

Is there supposed to be some kind of rule against mixing preamps? I didn't get that memo.

[dwoz]

what's a neutral pre?



good question. I guess it's a pre that sounds more like a piece of wire than a piece of wire wrapped around a piece of iron.

or maybe a pre that sounds more like a piece of wire than a piece of wire that is either discharging or collecting electrons inside a vacuum.

dwoz

[Pacific Resonance]

or maybe it was just an example of a mixing engineer's brain trying to find the recording engineer's word: "transparent"?

[Pacific Resonance]

but as I understand it a dynamic will take on a whole new dimension with a great pre.


Youre on to something there, but I don't know if that's the best way to put it. In my mind, I see it more as "with a great pre, a dynamic mic will sound like it SHOULD."

[weedywet]

Is there supposed to be some kind of rule against mixing preamps? I didn't get that memo.


not a rule, think of it more as a guideline.

but you CAN make worse sounding records and waste a lot of time and money picking and choosing multiple preamps for a project.
Feel free!

[eagan]

I'd just like to interject and say that I always revolt against the idea of distinguishing between "recording engineer" and "mixing engineer".

If you aren't both (I don't mean just doing work where you find yourself in a circumstance of being asked to only do one or the other on a project), you have no business calling yourself either one.


JLE

[Knastratt]

Unbiblical chord? Gotta be the Devil's interval.

[Pacific Resonance]

I'd just like to interject and say that I always revolt against the idea of distinguishing between "recording engineer" and "mixing engineer".

If you aren't both (I don't mean just doing work where you find yourself in a circumstance of being asked to only do one or the other on a project), you have no business calling yourself either one.

I was just making a joke earlier, but whatever. ;)

To me, being an "engineer" of any kind isn't what anyone IS, it's what they DO. And yeah, some people make a living out of ONLY mixing or ONLY engineering. It's just wordplay. Even my comment is wordplay.

[otek]

Is there supposed to be some kind of rule against mixing preamps? I didn't get that memo.

I don't think we sent one. :D

Personally, I'm not religiously against it, but there are some facts that make me kind of skeptical as to its merits:

1) Some of the finest sounding albums in history were made using only ONE make/model of preamps, namely those of a (great) studio desk.

2) The whole "mixing & matching" preamps with mics is a fairly new trend, and it only came into complete fruition with the arrival of inexpensive digital audio workstations (although it started way earlier, with the departure of the really great console designs).

3) People like to pontificate on the internets about some preamp or other being "better matched" to this or that mic, a discussion that's getting way too much attention and frankly is a bit ghey IMO.

All that said, if I have access to three different preamps in a studio, particularly ones I haven't heard, I will try them out. But I will stick to that choice later.


otek

[weedywet]

3) People like to pontificate on the internets about some preamp or other being "better matched" to this or that mic, a discussion that's getting way too much attention and frankly is a bit ghey IMO.


I'll go further.
it's COMPLETE nonsense

[MGMc]

I can see all of those reasons, especially the bit about wasting time, but making the recording sound worse for it? Are you saying that different preamps are likely to not sound good together in a mix?

[weedywet]

usually not AS good

the consistency is worth much more than the variety

most people have trouble BLENDING things into a coherent whole.
not in separating things into disparate elements.

Think CONSOLE.
Same preamp, same EQ.
same electronic character.

[dwoz]

I think an apt analogy would be to being in the kitchen, standing in front of a shelf full of 5 different kinds of Ketchup. One is Heinz 57, one is the generic supermarket brand, etc.

You're trying to decide which one to select. It's a tough choice, don't you know?

As you're debating the relative merits of this ketchup over that kechup, you are losing sight of something...




...it's KECHUP.




It is not flavor-enhancing, it is flavor-masking.



Which ketchup is best on a 5 minute burger as opposed to an 8 minute burger as opposed to a stove-cooked compared to a grill-cooked.



HINT: trick question.



dwoz

[Doylemusic]

Well, since I work for a Food Company (ConAgra Foods) the answer is obviously Hunts!!:grin:

[Knastratt]

Don't get me started on different ketchups. Grab a chair and a beer. Lean back...










































...just kidding! :lol:

[stevemazur]

What if you find yourself in a studio that houses a so-so console alongside a few racks of Neves, APIs, etc.?

You going to go with the console, for consistency?

[weedywet]

congratulations on identifying the genesis of this whole thing

studios started to put in crappy consoles for whatever their bottom line reasons were, and engineers started to bring in their own rack of preamps in order to be able to record on said crappy desks.

MCI.
SSL

people argue about which was the real culprit.
But in 1970, no one was doing it, and by 1980 everyone was.

so the answer is, I am going to use the API in the rack, you're right.
But I am goijng to try to use it on everything,
If I run out and have to 'mix and match' I will.
but it's not my PREFERENCE, and I am at no point thinking "hmmm, what preamp 'GOES with' this mic or instrument or genre or socks I am wearing today"

When I recorded the Joan Osborne record, in a house where we had to basically build a studio, I knew I wasn;t going to subject audio to the Series 80 I was monitoring through.
But I had only so many of this and so many of that available to hire in.
So that determined my choices.
I didn't SEEK Neves for the drums; the only thing I had more than 3 or 4 of was a little Neve Broadcast desk. Then I had a left over Neve channel so that was the vocal.
simple as that.


to come back to your premise, I won't choose the poorer quality desk JUST for consistency.
But that's not the issue.
The issue is, given choices of equal QUALITY, consistency counts for much much more than variety.
in this context

[Doylemusic]

I'm a culprit of the "mix & match" pre school of thought.

I have something like 7 diff pre's (5 of which are widely considered good pre's unless you ask Weedy).

While I don't get too much into the which pre goes with which mic thing, I did experiment with which pre for what instrument aspect...more so from a drum perspective.

From my tests, I feel the A designs pres sounded best on kick and snare, the API pres sounded best on toms and overheads. Just my experience. Based on these tests I track that way (A designs on kik/snare, API on toms, Great Rivers on Overheads, etc). However, I would be totally happy to trade in my non API pres for more API's or for all Great River Pres. I can hear the difference but I'm not totally sold that it translates to better in the end.

Anybody that wants to trade me for my Elixir's or A designs pres let me know.....I'll gladly take your API 512's. I don't "need" the variety.:grin:

[Pacific Resonance]

the consistency is worth much more than the variety

I agree with this. I've found that songs and records I make with many different preamps can yield "interesting" results; different textures, good tones INDIVIDUALLY, but something about the sounds just don't mesh as well. I've tried doing drum kits with different pres and two guitarists using different preamps...it's just an odd process. I wouldn't call it mandatory, but it's TO YOUR BENEFIT and to the benefit of the record to have consistent sounds.

One point I will make is that most project studios HAVE to deal with different preamps just because of the slow process of upgrading. You know, 2 channels of API, maybe a Pacifica, maybe a Great River or something. I've had to do this before, and if the situation permits--live tracking, or large arrangements with lots of simultaneous sources being tracked at once--try to use the same pre on a single ELEMENT. As in, only use brand X for the piano and acoustic instruments, only use brand Y for electrics and bass, only use brand Z for drums, etc. At least that way the individual elements sound interlocked and related sonically.

I'm a huge API fan, and if I had my choice, I'd make most records with API pres and EQs. The first time I ever used 550s in conjunction with things tracked on 512s was glorious. I realized how much I loved the consistency of sound and tones. It was almost like "pre-mixing" tonally, because everything automatically has this "color" that everyone's trying to recreate with plugins.

My two cents turned into ten.