triggering samples with audio, how to do it..

[lebouche]

Hi I've had a post like this for about a week in Logic pro forum so not to bother you guys but I give in.
Could someone please talk me through this....I want to replace a snare...I gather you process the audio by selecting the process audio to score. Then what do I do...how do I get the score data to a midi track?

Or how do you set up a gate to trigger a sample...(is that what sidechains are about?).

I also read here somewhere Andy Wallace had used a gate to trigger a reverb on the quieter rimshots...
I know I'm asking a lot...if you want you could hook me up with a nice engineer/producer in London and I'll grill them till their brains turn to toaaaast.:Razz:

Thanks

[otek]

Well, you've started out in Audio To Score, which is correct. (For anyone else who's curious, the Audio To Score function is available in the sample editor, under Factory.)

Before you perform the operation, you should have an instrument track highlighted (preferably one where you have a sampler loaded with your fave drum sounds).

Once you've called it up and analyzed the data, you should go through it and adjust your settings. The parameters Granulation, Attack Range, and Velocity Threshold, are all important, though especially changing the Attack Range can give slightly unpredictable results.

In the sample editor, use ctrl/drag across an area to zoom in on a couple of hits, make sure the trig points coincide properly with the waveform of the drum. This will not always be perfect - you may have to move a couple of them later.

Once you've adjusted your settings as close as you can, hit Process. A midi file will appear on the pre-selected instrument track.

Note that this midi file will not only contain midi velocity and position, but also pitch information, since Audio To Score is a pitch sensitive function which can be used on a variety of instruments. You will therefore have to transpose the midi notes to make them conform to the mapping layout of your drum sample patch.

Once I'm happy with the tracks, I ususally bounce them as audio. I should also say that I've been using Drumagog lately in favor of the Audio To Score function, which is a little awkward for drum replacement IMHO.

[lebouche]

Well, you've started out in Audio To Score, which is correct. (For anyone else who's curious, the Audio To Score function is available in the sample editor, under Factory.)

A) Before you perform the operation, you should have an instrument track highlighted (preferably one where you have a sampler loaded with your fave drum sounds).

B) Once you've called it up and analyzed the data, you should go through it and adjust your settings. The parameters Granulation, Attack Range, and Velocity Threshold, are all important, though especially changing the Attack Range can give slightly unpredictable results.

C) In the sample editor, use ctrl/drag across an area to zoom in on a couple of hits, make sure the trig points coincide properly with the waveform of the drum. This will not always be perfect - you may have to move a couple of them later.

Once you've adjusted your settings as close as you can, hit Process. A midi file will appear on the pre-selected instrument track.

Note that this midi file will not only contain midi velocity and position, but also pitch information, since Audio To Score is a pitch sensitive function which can be used on a variety of instruments. You will therefore have to transpose the midi notes to make them conform to the mapping layout of your drum sample patch.

Once I'm happy with the tracks, I ususally bounce them as audio. I should also say that I've been using Drumagog lately in favor of the Audio To Score function, which is a little awkward for drum replacement IMHO.

Do you just process a few at a time to see if you like your adjusted settings before processing the whole track.
I'm not really understanding if part B) of your reply is to do with your sampler or the Audio to score function..


Thanks again....I think I should be able to do this now :)
Still interested in the gateing method (I suppose audio processing is a form of gate) for both triggering audio and reverb if anyone wants to pitch a penny.

[otek]

Do you just process a few at a time to see if you like your adjusted settings before processing the whole track

I sometimes divide the track into several parts if I run into problem sections.

Also realize, the processing is written as midi data to another track. You will not be affecting the original audio.

I'm not really understanding if part B) of your reply is to do with your sampler or the Audio to score function..

Those are the basic parameters in the Audio To Score function. I thought you had already been in there and tried it?

Still interested in the gateing method (I suppose audio processing is a form of gate) for both triggering audio and reverb if anyone wants to pitch a penny.

Not sure what you mean by "audio processing is a form of gate", I would say it's rather the other way around - but you can use gating to improve the triggering. In other words, you gate the audio very hard, creating a fairly unnatural sound - just a short click. This ensures that a triggering device (be it a sampler with a built-in voltage-to-midi interface, a trig input on a V-Drum brain, etc.) responds more accurately to the incoming signal.

In the case of the Audio To Score function, what you have is digital sensing of pitch and velocity. You could gate the signal to improve triggering here, too, but in order for it to work, you have to bounce the track - since Audio To Score works on the actual recorded file, the gating must be written destructively to the file, or the Audio To Score algorithm will still see the original audio.

As for gating a reverb, I think what you are referring to is inserting a gate before the reverb on its return bus. This cleans up the signal and prevents the reverb from picking up on cymbal leakage.

[lebouche]

I sometimes divide the track into several parts if I run into problem sections.

Also realize, the processing is written as midi data to another track. You will not be affecting the original audio.



Those are the basic parameters in the Audio To Score function. I thought you had already been in there and tried it?
*yep have just dont remember playing with the attack n stuff*



Not sure what you mean by "audio processing is a form of gate", I would say it's rather the other way around - but you can use gating to improve the triggering. In other words, you gate the audio very hard, creating a fairly unnatural sound - just a short click. This ensures that a triggering device (be it a sampler with a built-in voltage-to-midi interface, a trig input on a V-Drum brain, etc.) responds more accurately to the incoming signal.
* I was thinking setting the threashold at which you process is a kind of gate...*

In the case of the Audio To Score function, what you have is digital sensing of pitch and velocity. You could gate the signal to improve triggering here, too, but in order for it to work, you have to bounce the track - since Audio To Score works on the actual recorded file, the gating must be written destructively to the file, or the Audio To Score algorithm will still see the original audio.

As for gating a reverb, I think what you are referring to is inserting a gate before the reverb on its return bus. This cleans up the signal and prevents the reverb from picking up on cymbal leakage.

*No but cool tip... thanks, I was trying to find out how by using a gate you could trigger effects (if possible)*

Cheers

[otek]

I was trying to find out how by using a gate you could trigger effects (if possible)

I don't really understand how you mean.

Are you familiar with the basic operation and function of a gate?

Are you refering to how you can use the key input function to key sounds with for example your kick and snare?

Or something else?

Elucidate please.

[lebouche]

No not familiar with the key option.
If I open silvergate for example there is a sidechain option but no key...
:Confused:

[otek]

No not familiar with the key option.
If I open silvergate for example there is a sidechain option but no key...
:Confused:



Uh......


No offense, but could you stop telling me what it isn't, and start telling me what you are looking to find out? ;) :D

I am having trouble understanding what you are asking, if that wasn't plain from my last post.

[lebouche]

Are you refering to how you can use the key input function to key sounds with for example your kick and snare?


Elucidate please.

This was the whole point of my original post... I wanted to find out if you could set a gate to trigger samples...is that what 'key' means?? It's sometimes really hard to understand why someone doesnt understand when you do so clearly yourself.
Thanks

[Comte de St Germain]

In this digital world I use Apptrigga to trigger drum samples.

apptrigga (http://www.apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/index.php)

[otek]

This was the whole point of my original post... I wanted to find out if you could set a gate to trigger samples...

...And that's why I asked you if you were familiar with the basic function and operation of a gate. I suppose you answered that, after a fashion.

A gate cannot produce any sound of its own. It cannot send out any midi or trig impulses. All it can do is remove audio which has a level lower than its threshold. It can certainly help the process of triggering sounds from an audio signal, if used correctly. But the answer to your question would have to be no.

is that what 'key' means??

No.

A key input (in Logic, this function is called sidechain input, as you pointed out before) will allow you to control a gate by a signal other than the one passing through the gate.

E.g. if you have a kick drum set to key a gate that's strapped across a VST instrument, producing a constant 30 Hz sine wave, you can have the sine wave essentially starting to play in sync with the kick. If you set your hold and release parameters correctly, you can have the sine wave decaying slowly, producing a sound reminiscent of a Roland TR-808 kick drum.

Or, you could do the same with a snare drum keying white noise, to get a sound reminiscent of snares rattling. Both this and the above trick were commonplace in the 80's, way before DAWs were practical in music production (yes, you can use this technique with analog gear also, so long as the gate has a key/sidechain input).

You can find many other applications for this technique, using new key sources and sounds - it's only limited by your own imagination.

It's sometimes really hard to understand why someone doesnt understand when you do so clearly yourself.

I hear ya, but in this case, it was because you used terminology not normally associated with the gear you were talking about. The first time I tried my hand at explaining what I thought you meant, you told me it was the wrong answer, so forgive me if I don't wish to play 20 questions anymore than necessary.

[Comte de St Germain]

Otek,

You need another fishing trip. Next time it will be in my boat which will trigger that same shark killing instinct I saw that hot summer day after a night of binge drinking.

Good info my brother, Apptrigga makes it all easy.

[lebouche]

Yo dude...The only thing I'll accuse you of being wrong about is saying I said you gave the wrong answer....
I totally appreciate all the time you have take on many posts to answer what must mundane and testing your patience questions.
I noticed there are a lot of canadians here...if you go fishing it should be in Canada next...you can hardly fail. Better still I'll meet you there cos I got family there and we can smoke some Fidels..the fishing there is unreal...evreywhere else I try is depressing in comparison.

What with the question.....I thought that was what sidechain did! ..so how do I set it up. It only gives me the option to select audio tracks and busses not instruments as the side chain....so I dont know how to make the gate trigger a snare.

Thanks:)

[malice]

In this digital world I use Apptrigga to trigger drum samples.

apptrigga (http://www.apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/index.php)

+1 for aptrigga : inexpensive and very effective no brainer trigger system.

malice

[lebouche]

Thanks guys I've bought it...
Should arrive in a few days. Cheers,
:Thumbsup:

[otek]

I totally appreciate all the time you have take on many posts to answer what must mundane and testing your patience questions.

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

What with the question.....I thought that was what sidechain did!

A key input (
in Logic, this function is called sidechain input,
as you pointed out before) will allow you to control a gate by a signal other than the one passing through the gate.

:Roll eyes:

Technically, if you want to be a stickler for proper terminology, a sidechain is the "listening" signal path in the dynamic processor, in other words, the path that tells the processor what the audio signal sounds like and how to respond to it. Among other things, this enables us to process the triggering audio in ways different from the actual "process" audio path. The sidechain may be listening to the audio being passed through the processor, a filtered copy of it, or any kind of external signal.

..so how do I set it up. It only gives me the option to select audio tracks and busses not instruments as the side chain

If you send the instrument through a bus, you can use that as a key source signal.

And just to be crystal clear on this: in the above examples I mentioned, you do not put the gate on the snare, you put it on the instrument, and let the snare trigger it via the key/sidechain input.

....so I dont know how to make the gate trigger a snare.

Remember what I said about being a stickler for proper terminology: It is the snare that triggers the gate, not the other way around. :Wink:

[lebouche]

Badabing badaboom no doubt you are the GATE GURU!!
Thanks a mill!
:D

[5down1up]

well actually in the good & old days, a gate was used to clean a track. you can send the gated track to f.ex a trigger box and this box is converting the " taktaktaks " into some midi signals and from there you trigger a sampler f.ex.

i could never make it work for real to trigger some " samples " from outboard delay units etc.
but in the days of daws and especially with those new trigger plugins it reallys becoming a " no brainer " ( well, might get complex if you go into the velocity layers ).
i played around with drumagog´and am totally impressed.
havent tried aptrigga, next thing to do.

have fun !

[otek]

well actually in the good & old days, a gate was used to clean a track. you can send the gated track to f.ex a trigger box and this box is converting the " taktaktaks " into some midi signals and from there you trigger a sampler f.ex.

you can use gating to improve the triggering. In other words, you gate the audio very hard, creating a fairly unnatural sound - just a short click. This ensures that a triggering device (be it a sampler with a built-in voltage-to-midi interface, a trig input on a V-Drum brain, etc.) responds more accurately to the incoming signal.

:Roll eyes:

Yeah, I know, I know.... sometimes I write a lot of shit at the same time, kinda gets boring to weed through it all.