When do you use 2buss compression ?

[malice]

I saw a thread about this in another forum,

I was surprised by the response of aclaimed engineer.

discuss and vote


malice

[Kenny Gioia]

My 2 buss compression (Channelstrip into MasterX) is on from day one.

It's in the template.

I have no idea what anything sounds like before it gets there.

I like it like that.

It's my console. :icon_eek: :icon_eek:

[Jamstudio]

I do use comp or limit on the 2bus, but more as a safety net.
It's set that there is (almost) no gain reduction. just to catcht the ocasional overs
sometimes i add a eq, but that's is mostly when general shapping (draft mix) is finished

Remco

[Jason Phair]

I actually use it live more often than recording.

Live - at the end. I'll get basic levels and sounds, then slap the insert buttons, and set it so I'm knocking maybe 2db on peaks (this is with a dbx160 if analogue, or the onboard if I'm digital).


Recording? I honestly don't remember...it's been awhile.

[MacGregor]

[I'm speaking of mixing here, I don't record]

I started using it at the very end of the mixing process, but use it
now after the rough balancing and tone adjustments.
I'd never start with it because I want to hear what's there
before I start messing around with it.

[Ashley Smith]

I do as Charles, mix through AC-1 and Waves Ren Comp mimiking SSL.

[Charles Dye]

I do it the same way as Ashley.

[otek]

For Pop, there's a compressor on the 2bus 80% of the time.

For Jazz and Folk, mostly not.

[slabrock]

If i'm putting something in the master buss, i will do it as early as possible. Often i end up doing two versions, the other with an uneffected master buss, so that i can replace whatever i'm using with the nice Cranesong Massenburg Gyraf Audio Massive Passive stuff that waits me in the mastering lab.
:lol:

But yes, if i think the project will benefit, i'll put at least something in to just slightly warm up the master buss right from the start. Otherwise i'll have to risk getting my levels wrong when adding the master compression. But i'm very careful here.

Peace,

Slabrock

[Skwaidu]

I have something on the 2 buss most of the time. Might even have some for more acoustic stuff... Though very little, of course.

And yeah, I put it on 1st even though I might tweak it during the mix process.

Btw, I don't print a comp-free version any more. I used to but now I don't want anyone to be able to mess with my mix that much.

[Kenny Gioia]

For Pop, there's a compressor on the 2bus 80% of the time.



Do you turn it off for the bridge?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[otek]

Do you turn it off for the bridge?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mixerpuppet]

The option for if and as required is missing???

It depends on the tracking, the genre and the "2 bus" choices available...

If your good with channel compression and using the submix inserts the 2 bus may not need it...

Who might be mastering it could have an effect too...

[Fulcrum]

I was surprised by the response of aclaimed engineer.

Which was...? I'd be interested in hearing the acclaimed engineer's rationale.

I guess I'm a little more cautious than most of you cowboys-- I get balances first to see if I actually need compression, and add the L3 or (lately) Ozone afterward if I do (which I'll admit is 80% of the time, like Otek); but once it's there it stays there (bridge and all).

[Charles Dye]

But L3 is not a compressor.

[Stick]

I've been starting with just Phoenix on the 2-buss, then toward the end, I add in a parallel compression buss, usually with Impact or Smack if it needs to be crunchier.

[nobby]

I used to avoid it, but I fell in with a bad crowd -- not mentioning any names, but these hoodlums [cough] Mixerman, Malice, Charles Dye, Kenny Gioia, Otek [cough] use it for what I'm doing (Rock, Pop/Rock) and I've started using Ren Comp from the beginning of the mix, @ around 2 dB GR.

I think it helps glue the mix, although by the time I get to the party, the glue is usually gone, and all that's left is a paper bag Evil!

[Fulcrum]

But L3 is not a compressor.

No, you're right, it isn't, but I was playing fast and loose with the question and expanding it to include limiting as a more extreee-eee-eeeme form of dynamic manipulation than compression.

I seem to recall reading about at least one guy who straps an L3 across the 2-bus, but hell if I can remember who or where I read it.

Meh, I'm using Ozone more than the L3 these days anyway. Selah.

[Zoesch]

I saw a thread about this in another forum,

I was surprised by the response of aclaimed engineer.

discuss and vote


malice

Somehow I think this thread can descend into the realm of "shower water mixing" discussions :lol:

I used to work without it, but now it's the first thing that goes into my project templates and the settings are almost nearly fixed (Barring minor adjustments)

[C_F_H_13]

Using my API 2500 most of the time. However since getting charles's dvd, I've tried his chain with pretty awesome results.

[Mixerman]

I put an SSL compressor on the 2-buss in 1993 and haven't taken it off since.

Mixerman

[malice]

Somehow I think this thread can descend into the realm of "shower water mixing" discussions :lol:



Yeah, I got to the point where I tried to explain that strappin a comp at the very end is like mixing without and master your own work. It seems that there is a confusion between the real utility of 2buss comp during mixing andmastering compression.

I started the thread because they were so many voices about putting the comp at the end of the process that I started to wonder if I was not doing it wrong after all.

But otoh, one of the argument when I raise the point that a compressor put in the end would fuck up balance, tone, stereo image and automation, I was told that this is why I should put an SSL compressor.

As if an SSL comp had no sonic imprint, Doh !!!

malice

[Jason Phair]

For Pop, there's a compressor on the 2bus 80% of the time.

For Jazz and Folk, mostly not.

Funny....live it's the opposite.


Acoustic instruments = compress to death and beyond.

[Baddo]

I've had good results with RenComp, UAD Fairchild and MH ChannelStrip. But even when mixing rock I've found that one out of 30 mixes it sounds better without compression (mostly when I've forgotten to un-bypass it during the mix :grin: )

[malice]

I've had good results with RenComp, UAD Fairchild and MH ChannelStrip. But even when mixing rock I've found that one out of 30 mixes it sounds better without compression (mostly when I've forgotten to un-bypass it during the mix :grin: )

Well,

I'm not surprised,

Because none of them compressor are really suiting the job, imho.


Not really into pluggins for that application anyway.

I haven't tried the Duende SSL comp yet though.

malice

[Skwaidu]

Not really into pluggins for that application anyway.


Waves SSL is not bad. The real thing is slightly better, though...

I've said it before but I have in the past gotten usable results with the R-Comp...

[weedywet]

If I'm working on a desk, there is a stereo compressor on from almost day one, on the monitor mixer.

When i mix the first song, I'm very CAREFUL as the mix comes together to not slam the compressor, or have it determine my gain structure.
But once the first mix is done and the compressor is set and I have a handle on the gain and basic set-up, it stays on for the rest of the mixes, and just gets tweaked if necessary (usually not)

If I need to, i will sometimes trim all the desk faders down a dB or so to keep the gain structure into the stereo buss and compressor looking right.
There is certainly a tendency for each mix to get louder on the desk as you mix your way through an album.
at least I find there is.

if I work ITB, I might or moght not leave a compressor on all the time while overdubbing.

and again, I would probably start the first mix being very conservative with a compressor until I got it figured out and then I'd paste those settings for all the other mixes.

but i always try to have a hardware stereo compressor even if the rest of the mix is ITB.

to paraphrase Mixerman:
I put an Audio&Design Recording stereo Compex on the stereo buss in 1978 and it didn't come off until i got two Dakings in 1997 or so.

It's part of the sound of the record.
Not an afterthought for me.

and nothing to do with mastering (where I almost NEVER add additional compression)

[Baddo]

...Not really into pluggins for that application anyway.

I haven't tried the Duende SSL comp yet though.

malice

Fair enough, what comps do you like to use on the 2buss? What about a Smart C2 or a 33609?

[malice]

Fair enough, what comps do you like to use on the 2buss? What about a Smart C2 or a 33609?

I like them both on my drums buss when I need one.

The smart C2 is not exactly an SSL to my ears. But I could do with it occasionally.

The Neve is really "grabing" too much for may taste.

I like SSL, Cranesong STC-8, Pendulum OCL-2, Pendulum 6386 was great but discontinued ...

these above would be my first choice.

Second would be smart C2, the API 25XX (don't remember the name).

The Requisite is kinda interesting too, so is the Manley Slam, on a very different level, but these are more like one trick pony to me.

On a budget line, I would consider the Roll music comp as well, or a C2M (one control, 2channels). The Duende again, seems to be interesting if you stay in the box.

I think it's a bout all. I would advise not to put anything that is entirely satisfactory. Better mix without than with something that does not the trick.

malice

[Baddo]

...I would advise not to put anything that is entirely satisfactory. Better mix without than with something that does not the trick.

malice

Great! This keeps getting interesting. Thanks.

On a sideline, what are you looking for when you choose a 2bus compressor? Why does the "grabbing too much" bother you? (I'm not saying it doesn't bug me, I'm just setting the mood)

The Fairchild grabs a lot, but I find if you use it with just 1-1.5 dB GR it behaves well. And adds lattitude.

Ever tried parallel compression of the whole mixbus?

[malice]

Great! This keeps getting interesting. Thanks.

On a sideline, what are you looking for when you choose a 2bus compressor? Why does the "grabbing too much" bother you? (I'm not saying it doesn't bug me, I'm just setting the mood)

The Fairchild grabs a lot, but I find if you use it with just 1-1.5 dB GR it behaves well. And adds lattitude.

Ever tried parallel compression of the whole mixbus?

Grabing too much is not bothering me, but when I want that as some kinda Fx. Usually it's not what I'm seeking for.

Usully, I want a something more transparent. And when I say "transparent", in this case I talk about compression artifacts.

To be honnest, I am more in the 3db of GR vicinity, sometimes 4dB, so yes, a Fairchild does not the trick very often.

I don't do parallel compression much, but what I do sometimes is to compress the drum bus a tiny bit (like 1 or 2 dB). But I do that when I'm mixing with a DAW, never on a big desk, because I don't need too.

malice

[Baddo]

... The Duende again, seems to be interesting if you stay in the box...

Have you heard from someone with authority if the Duende plugs do actually sound like the eqs and comps from an SSL console?

I don't intend to bash, I'm just skeptical to everything other than first hand experience.

[malice]

Have you heard from someone with authority if the Duende plugs do actually sound like the eqs and comps from an SSL console?

I don't intend to bash, I'm just skeptical to everything other than first hand experience.

Well, one thing is sure, it is exactly the same as the channel strip and the 2buss comp of their digital console.

Now is the digital console comparable to their analog consoles, that is the question.

malice

[Mixerman]

Have you heard from someone with authority if the Duende plugs do actually sound like the eqs and comps from an SSL console?

I don't intend to bash, I'm just skeptical to everything other than first hand experience.

I have yet to hear a plug-in, that sounds anything near to its analog predecessor. It's all just graphic suggestion.

If you want to get an interesting perspective on this, switch between a channel with a bombfactory 1176 and a bombfactory LA2A (get the input and output the same). Do it blind please.

Mixerman

[weedywet]

I have yet to hear a plug-in, that sounds anything near to its analog predecessor. It's all just graphic suggestion.
...

EXACTLY!

I'm thinking of getting an Aston Martin picture though for the dashboard of my car.

[Charles Dye]

I've never heard a $10k digital reverb that sounded like the real thing either.

(Hasn't stopped me from using them. But that's just me.)

[Mixerman]

I've never heard a $10k digital reverb that sounded like the real thing either.

(Hasn't stopped me from using them. But that's just me.)

I never said anyone should stop using them. (Don't make me send Slippy to fucking Florida to beat your ass!) I just said they don't sound anything like what the manufacturers suggest they sound like. Man! Charles! You're starting to protest too much.

Mixerman

[Charles Dye]

Man! Mixerman!

(I like 1 word sentences 2, but my fave is...)

Don't!

Make!

Me!

Send!

My!

Wife!

2!

Beat!

Ur!

Ass!

(1 word paragraphs)

[Mixerman]

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[Charles Dye]

I'm sure u realize the amount of satisfaction a post like urs provides.

But then again u probably don't.

Hugs + Kisses, sweetums...

Ain't that right, Polarvark?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mixerman]

I'm sure u realize the amount of satisfaction a post like urs provides.

But then again u probably don't.

Hugs + Kisses, sweetums...

Ain't that right, Polarvark?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm laughing...but I don't know why!

Oh. Now I know why!

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[Charles Dye]

So, this Burgundian walks into a bar...

[weedywet]

I've never heard a $10k digital reverb that sounded like the real thing either.

(Hasn't stopped me from using them. But that's just me.)

well, what's the "real thing" in that case?

I mean an EMT 250 doesn't sound like anything OTHER THAN an EMT250.
But it sounds great.

The original EMT 140 plate was apparently supposed to sound like some particular church in Germany.
It no doubt doesn't.
But no one seemed to care.

It's fine to like a plug in compressor or EQ.
but they sound nothing like the hardware versions.

[Mixerman]

well, what's the "real thing" in that case?

I mean an EMT 250 doesn't sound like anything OTHER THAN an EMT250.
But it sounds great.

The original EMT 140 plate was apparently supposed to sound like some particular church in Germany.
It no doubt doesn't.
But no one seemed to care.

It's fine to like a plug in compressor or EQ.
but they sound nothing like the hardware versions.

The real thing would be capturing true reflectivity of a room or a hall. A plate is just a plate. It's a kind of reverb. Seeing as every one of them sounds different from the other, (while still retaining a signature sound) I'm not sure how anyone can claim they are designed to sound like any particular room.

I try to stick to the real thing myself, whenever possible. Particularly in rock music. But you know, some genres of music call for the sound of digital reverbs. In those genres, wouldn't digital reverbs be the real thing?

Mixerman

[malice]

btw, 140 plates are, to my great surprise, very close to the original in that UAD plug. It might be one of the few rev plug that I like.
They emulated 3 different 140, because yes, none sound like the other.

There is a good 250 emulation by TCelectronic.

That said, I tend to agree for the "real thing" comment, but I don't know where to put a couple of 140B in my personal studio either so ...

Oh, and I really intend to build an echo chamber. The ral thing, nothing's like the real thing ;)

malice

[Charles Dye]

I mean an EMT 250 doesn't sound like anything OTHER THAN an EMT250.
But it sounds great.

The original EMT 140 plate was apparently supposed to sound like some particular church in Germany.
It no doubt doesn't.
But no one seemed to care.

It's fine to like a plug in compressor or EQ.
but they sound nothing like the hardware versions.

Precisely. We're on the same page.

[weedywet]

The real thing would be capturing true reflectivity of a room or a hall. A plate is just a plate. It's a kind of reverb. Seeing as every one of them sounds different from the other, (while still retaining a signature sound) I'm not sure how anyone can claim they are designed to sound like any particular room.


but apparently when they designed it, the EMT engineers DID think they were "emulating" the reverb sound of a church.

it's only to us in retrospect that a plate reverb is a sound unto itself.

but a plate sounds about as much like a real church as a plug in sounds like a plate or hardware digital reverb.

[Charles Dye]

That's one of the thingz I luv about Lexi's... how they don't sound real @ all. But they sound amazing in a completely surreal way.






oops, we've kinda strayed from the 2 buss comp. apologies.

[Mixerpuppet]

Emulation is overrated.... along with room simulation.

I think the number of places where people have "really" recorded is a much smaller number that the number of options available synthetically.

"We" get all tied up about the accuracy etc... but how many people have really recorded in Draculas Castle? It's about creating a space that helps people imagine things they have never experienced before.

The key for me is whether or not I can tweak it where it sounds unobtrusive. Most plugs can't do that. Ive got assorted POS hardware preset fx units I cannot part with...

Though my Alesis Midiverb 2 is getting close to being parted with... :)

[Baddo]

Well, I must say I didn't intend to open the hardware/software can-o-worms. What I was aiming at was the usability of duende's quad comp versus a hardware quad comp (x-logic's or console's).

There's a big placebo component in using software that emulates vintage gear. Uaudio nailed it with the pretty pictures, but the reality is that for some people (notice the focus shift) uad comps are very usable regardless of their accuracy when A-B'd with the hardware conterparts.

Add to that the fact that I won't have enough cash to buy a bunch of fairchilds, 1176s, la2as, and pultecs anytime soon and you have a pretty convincing sales point. When I do have that kind of cash I will spend it in that kind of gear and hopefully I will know what to do with it.

Anyway to get back on topic.

What do you think about Sonalksis' SV-315 on the 2buss? I started using it last week with the wide bandpass sidechain setting and the knee knob at 10db. I think it sounds pretty good.

I looked around for the Rolls comp and found it very interesting and somewhat affordable. I already added it to my shopping list.:Thumbsup: