Heavy guitars and attack: I'm hating life.

[ben_allison]

Ok, got some good tones. Rockerverb, 5150, and Triple Rec.

Rockerverb is a gainy bit dialed back (for clarity), others are gainy.

Problem? In the mix (which is pretty dense), I'm getting a wash of guitars, and not the kind of articulation I'm hoping for.

But with less gain, I'm not getting the "anger" that the track demands. When I raise the RV and lower the higher-gain tracks, all the balls go away.

Anyone have tips for getting some punch/attack back into the guitars, while keeping them satisfactorily angry?

My last resort is per strum automation.

Someone shoot me.

[seaneldon]

I use Transient Designers for this with good results...if you don't have one try and get a demo of the plugin. Use one of the tracks for exaggerated attack, the other for exaggerated sustain. Blend and automate as necessary, but I can typically get a good balance between the two without constantly riding faders.

Are the three tracks all the same pass at the same part? If so, can you ditch one of the higher gain tracks? If it's different passes at the same part you could very well be fucked if the playing isn't right on. Google "tying a noose" and your problem will become someone else's problem.

Perhaps you can reamp the RV track to a clean channel amp and try and get more air moving?

[Unfcknblvbl]

Read the whole fucking thing. (http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html)



.

[ben_allison]

Thanks for the Transient Designer reminder!

I've thought about side-chaining the amped tracks off the DI (since they have more dynamics) or off the kick and snare. But TD might be worth a shot.

Tracks are all separate, but were reamps of a DI take.

Doubled tracks.

Pass 1, Left: RV 50, 5150

Pass 2, Right: RV 50, Recto

FWIW, over the past 5 years I've read Slippy's manifesto like 20 times.

I still have the DI, so I'm not totally SOL.

[greyskull]

for the attack try a tubescreamer tickling the front of the amp on the way in.
tightens up the bottom and gives instant In your faceness ness

[Damage, Inc.]

It could be a performance issue, and without hearing the track I can't say much more. Four tracks is a great way to go for heavy guitars, but the doubles have to be dead-on, especially if the parts are complicated, for it to work. Otherwise, you get a wash of crap. As far as the tone, I think there is a natural give-and-take between articulation and heaviness with high-gain tones. Happy medium?

[MKZ]

It could be a performance issue, and without hearing the track I can't say much more.

That's what I was thinking. You want angry, play it angry.

[ben_allison]

Yeah, I think I might retrack, re-reamp, and see what I get.

The 5150 is just too fizzed out. I think if I hit the RV50 with a boost, I can run it's gain lower, and just deal with ONE amp.

Less is more.

Problem with the RV50 is that it's hard to get it into the sweet spot where it's got enough gain, but isn't fizz. Live, it's not as much of a problem. Close mic'd, different story.

We'll see how it goes!

[eagan]

I was thinking of winding up the typing fingers and throwing some spew in here regarding my own thoughts. Then it occurred to me that there is another new thread going here that, I think, addresses this one in a very well.


JLE

[mclights]

short of whats already been mentioned, maybe try sneaking a compressed DI in behind the distortion track? seems to add more string definition while keeping the original tracks that you're workin with in the mix.

just one more thing to try i spose.

[ben_allison]

I was thinking of winding up the typing fingers and throwing some spew in here regarding my own thoughts. Then it occurred to me that there is another new thread going here that, I think, addresses this one in a very well.


JLE

Which thread did you have in mind?

[eagan]

This one (http://www.thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=12392).


JLE

[otek]

In the mix (which is pretty dense), I'm getting a wash of guitars, and not the kind of articulation I'm hoping for.

Unfortunately not easy to deal with in the mix. I find this is often due to poor arrangement and sloppy playing, where either a) too many guitars are stacked on top of each other playing the exact same thing, or b) guitars aren't played tight enough to provide definition.

(not saying this is the case here, of course - just a general observation.)

Anyone have tips for getting some punch/attack back into the guitars, while keeping them satisfactorily angry?

Again, a tracking issue more than anything. I often use a clean booster to "shock" the amplifier input stage without using excessive amounts of preamp gain. The other thing of course is playing the amps loud enough to get good cabinet involvement, but not so loud the rectifier gets saggy. On the Mesa, I way preferred the diode rectifier for this sort of thing.

In mix, there's really not too many efficient tricks to solve this. Transient Designers don't really work very well for me on static-state instruments like distorted electric guitar, and often give very unpredictable results. EQ and judicious amounts of compression can help a little. I also often use a bit of side-chain compression from the drum kit to make sure the guitars "move" with the beat, but this is not effective in all arrangements.



otek

[ben_allison]

This one (http://www.thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=12392).

Good thread... unfortunately, it's not helpful at the moment.

I'm working on a project in which I'm playing every instrument. Kind of hard to lock anything down when things are entering the picture over the course of months, even years.

[edhombre]

short of whats already been mentioned, maybe try sneaking a compressed DI in behind the distortion track? seems to add more string definition while keeping the original tracks that you're workin with in the mix.

just one more thing to try i spose.

+1 on this. I've had useful results sticking the DI through a cleanish but gritty amp sim (rednef twin for example) and clownfucking with it in the mix. You just need enough to 'suggest' the attack... kinda thing where you can't hear it till you take it out. Don't be scared of abusing the EQ, compression, transients to make it work.... Can make a huge difference though. ymmv

edx

[Mo Facta]

Read the whole fucking thing. (http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html)



.

'Nuff said. End of thread. Case closed.

[otek]

I'm working on a project in which I'm playing every instrument.

If so it seems to me retracking would be your best bet.

Is it all rhythm guitars?


otek

[ben_allison]

If so it seems to me retracking would be your best bet.

That's what I'm thinking... why pull out what little hair I have left!

[QUOTE=otek;218753]Is it all rhythm guitars?/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's riffage mostly, and some chording. No so worried about the chording (during chorus). A big wash in that section isn't necessarily a negative (given the arrangement).

[eagan]

Good thread... unfortunately, it's not helpful at the moment.

It might not seem that way at a glance. Which is part of the point. I pointed you toward that thread because I think it would help you far more than you might realize, and the fundamental core point that applies here is to understand that.

Put in a different way; that thread will not directly solve your problem with an immediate practical solution. What good it can do is to nudge you into realizing the practical points involved and change your thinking and methods in a way that will help you figure out how to go about solving your own problems here.



I'm working on a project in which I'm playing every instrument. Kind of hard to lock anything down when things are entering the picture over the course of months, even years.

This is the kind of thing that is causing me an urge to write what could end up being a whole essay in David's "commit" thread. Because, you see, working on projects in which I'm playing every instrument is exactly what my recording activities have been for quite a while now. So I can speak with some direct understanding of the issues involved in that kind of process.

I'm here to tell you that in that kind of working situation, that situation is exactly why it's an important point.

If you're working that way, piece by piece, step by step, I argue that it is even MORE important to work a part and a sound you play that part with, together, as an integrated whole unit, and commit to it, before moving on.

Your argument you make as a reason why you think you cannot do this is, in my experience, in fact an argument of why you DO need to do this.

If you lock nothing down, firm up a sound and part, you cannot lock anything else down that follows. It just becomes an ever larger collection of moving targets.

That's just one part; another is a whole subject of its own, that's kind of related. The whole idea of playing a guitar part and recording straight into DI, without hearing what might be the actual final sound of that part, and then throwing that through different reamp processes trying to hit something that works. I suggest to you that your entire problem that you're posting about is exactly the result of going about this the way you have been going about this so far. That is the problem, I think.


JLE

[ben_allison]

I suggest to you that your entire problem that you're posting about is exactly the result of going about this the way you have been going about this so far. That is the problem, I think.

Hmm. Some food for thought.

Actually, the whole thing started with drums. I went to a decent local studio, tracked the drums. So that is totally fixed.

I am doing some sample replacement, but I'm happy to say that for 90% of the tracks, I'm greatly preferring the live sound, and am using samples mostly to thicken the kick, pop the snare for choruses/high-intensity passages, or do damage control where I'm ridding on a tom and it's turning to mud and can't do anything because of cymbal bleed.

So something is fixed. Thank God or I'd NEVER finish!

I've resorted to DI's because most of the time (for high, high gain sounds), it so difficult to strike the balls/not fizzed to death balance. So if I do commit, I'm fucked (like I am with the song in question) and having that DI means I can go back, re-record without re-performing, save time, and actually make the song work in the end.

I think limiting choices and just deciding to commit is important... I know Brian Eno talks about that a lot, and I agree that paralysis by analysis is a killer.

I think, however, that sometimes a back-door means survival.

[Slipperman]

Hey Ben.

Can ya send me a mix somehow?

I'll be around till Sunday, then I'm off to Oz(and out of the loop) till October.

Thanx buddy!

SM.

[ben_allison]

I just had a heart attack.

Thanks Slip! Will do!

[Slipperman]

I just had a heart attack.

Thanks Slip! Will do!

OK. Kiddo. I'm taking it with me to Oz. I'll get back atcha as soon as I can.

SM.

[ben_allison]

OK. Kiddo. I'm taking it with me to Oz. I'll get back atcha as soon as I can.

SM.

Killer! Looking forward to your scathing criticism. Again, really appreciate it.

Have a great time mang!

[CaptainHook]

then I'm off to Oz

You poor bastard. I'll try send good vibes across..

[strangedays]

If you wanna post any views (with the mix if you can) would be interested to read up and listen.

I have substantially improved my guitars recently, the stuff about adjusting eq and things like that for attack definitely only work well once you get those faders to do there thing.

[ben_allison]

I'm going to regret this.

This is more or less from a PM I shot Slip. First, a short preface:

1) A bunch of the vox will be getting some overdubs (for pitch and performance).

2) There's many drum issues – floor tom had to get sample replaced and right now it's flamming against the live drums, "machine gunning" cause I haven't worked the velocities properly. Also, there's some hi-hat inconsistency and it's poking out too much. The snare needs fattening/punching up. There's some hits and fills that need clean up. The whole kit needs to be mixed. In other words, I'm not a complete moron, I'm just not done with the drums yet.

3) Overall, this is rough mix.

Ok! Here's a clip:

http://roestudios.com/dump/warzone_mix.wav

I put the guitars up a bit higher than I might normally, but you can hear that even with slightly more volume that might be ideal, they're on the verge of disappearing in a haze. Solo'd, not so bad, but of course that doesn't count for much.

I'll probably re-track them.

[Damage, Inc.]

Here's what I hear:

The vocalist's style is very laid back, and I don't necessarily think angrier guitars are in order. Maybe a smoother tone? There is kind of a 1k bump in them that annoys me a bit, it might be muddying things up. I would think that if you retrack four passes with some combo of amps (a 5150 and a Rockerverb on each side, maybe) you should get closer to what you're looking for. Maybe roll the gain back some on one of them, and really open the other one up.

As for the performance, it sounds like the guitarist doesn't have a really tight right hand. I would personally play those eighth note chord stabs a bit more staccato.

Slip is the man in this arena...if he tells you the opposite of what I just did, take his advice. I'm a far better player than engineer.

[ben_allison]

Here's what I hear:

The vocalist's style is very laid back, and I don't necessarily think angrier guitars are in order. Maybe a smoother tone? There is kind of a 1k bump in them that annoys me a bit, it might be muddying things up. I would think that if you retrack four passes with some combo of amps (a 5150 and a Rockerverb on each side, maybe) you should get closer to what you're looking for. Maybe roll the gain back some on one of them, and really open the other one up.

As for the performance, it sounds like the guitarist doesn't have a really tight right hand. I would personally play those eighth note chord stabs a bit more staccato.

Slip is the man in this arena...if he tells you the opposite of what I just did, take his advice. I'm a far better player than engineer.

Thanks man!

More or less what I had been thinking.

Breathy vocals + angry guitars = hard to fit together.

Honestly, the 5150 is bothering me more than anything. It's just not fitting... I'm thinking the Rockerverb dialed in right will fit better.

[Brendo]

funny. in another thread here, slippy denounces the 5150 as never quite fitting right.

[ben_allison]

funny. in another thread here, slippy denounces the 5150 as never quite fitting right.

I dunno. It's Andy Sneap's favourite amp... it's definitely a polarizing piece of gear. You either love it or you hate it.

[Damage, Inc.]

funny. in another thread here, slippy denounces the 5150 as never quite fitting right.

I can see having trouble with it, depending on the style of music. I neglected to mention that for the music posted in this thread, putting a Tube Screamer in front of it on the rhythm channel with the gain pushed up might work better. The lead channel can get pretty buzzy. My favorite recorded example of the 5150 (albeit mixed with other amps) is Nevermore's This Godless Endeavor. You either have to deal with that buzzy top end or get a different amp. It's difficult to EQ out.

[mclights]

hey ben. fwiw, i didnt find that the gtrs "disappeared in the mix" mind you, i guess its a different story in headphones. regardless, they were present enough throughout the clip...for me.

the only thing i might have done is sink the vox down into the mix a bit more. might make the gtrs sound bigger. i could be way off the mark, but for me (and take that fwiw) if im doing a track with a vocal like that, i would rather have it sit where I would imagine it would in reality; behind the hard hitting, loud band.

not to the point where its inaudible either, just back a bit. it may make the gtrs stick out a bit better for you.

again, and i say this honestly, i didnt hear them disappear like you mentioned. and +1 for the tubescreamer as the front-end for amps like the 5150. they stay present, but yeah, too much top-end fizz. you can try to duck it out with eq and bump the mids, but the ts seems to roll out that fizz and gives you the ability to add those mids externally.

in that clip, are their different amps in there or just the 5150? short of eq, just bring up the more mid-range sounding amp in the mix maybe?

rambling...cant sleep, apparently.

sounding good tho man, keep at it:Thumbsup:

[strangedays]

I've only listened on laptop speakers, but it sounds cool!

You may need to adjust more as I can't hear great on these but the main this I heard was that you just need to get those vocals to meld into the mix better.

Which I think was suggested before, doesn't need much though!

[Slipperman]

Hey Ben(and all!!).

So sorry I haven't addressed this yet, I got DREADFULLY ill in Oz on my "vacation" and ended up in the Wollongong ICU for the end of my stay.

Almost croaked down there, if the truth be known.

In the end the Aussie docs got me back on the plane and home... so.... I'm kinda running behind here as I returned to absolute bedlam as far as work here at my place.

Anyhoo. I sure will try to get to this ASAP.

Back soon with a water balloon.

SM.

[Brendo]

wollongong? what the balls were you doing there?

[ben_allison]

Hey Ben(and all!!).

So sorry I haven't addressed this yet, I got DREADFULLY ill in Oz on my "vacation" and ended up in the Wollongong ICU for the end of my stay.

Almost croaked down there, if the truth be known.

In the end the Aussie docs got me back on the plane and home... so.... I'm kinda running behind here as I returned to absolute bedlam as far as work here at my place.

Anyhoo. I sure will try to get to this ASAP.

Back soon with a water balloon.

SM.

Dude. That sucks ass. What did you catch?

Sorry your vacation was ruined man. Hope you're on your way to a full recovery!

[Brendo]

well australia was the bacon flu capital of the world for a little while there...

[Tommy Fobia]

Wow.

I'm sorry to hear about that Slipster. I'm glad you're back on your feet - I hope you make a full recovery soon.

Best wishes and good vibes mate - make sure you take another vacation very soon, where you actually get to relax!
:Thumbsup::Thumbsup:

[volthause]

Took a quick listen, thought I'd add my $.0002.

My biggest issue is the incongruity between the drums and guitars as far as attack is concerned. Definitely the guitar sounds limp wristed, but there also isn't any pick definition in the sound. By contrast, the drums (except the kick with is quite boomy) are almost all attack. I won't go into the "phoned-in" vocal.

I do like the song though. It's quite good for it's particular genre.

[ben_allison]

Did you listen to the original track, or the updated mix I posted?

Also, explain "phoned in" vocal.

[volthause]

Listened to the one you put in this thread.

Phoned-in vocal: lifeless, emotionless. sung with an attitude of indifference.

[seaneldon]

Also, explain "phoned in" vocal.

"Phoned-in" typically means without intimacy/personality/passion...

As in, rather than telling someone something important to their face, you just call them on the phone.

[ben_allison]

"Phoned-in" typically means without intimacy/personality/passion...

As in, rather than telling someone something important to their face, you just call them on the phone.

Cool. I thought he meant phone in as in "lazy and half-assed."

The vocals get more "hyped" later on in the song... much more so.

Most songs handle the a more understated vocal... maybe I should punch it up in the first verse...

[shhpeaceful]

Cool. I thought he meant phone in as in "lazy and half-assed."



...I'm pretty sure that IS what we're trying to say, here.

[ben_allison]

Ok, so the general feel is that the vocals don't simply sound breathy and understated, but rather that the vocalist doesn't give a shit.

If there's a concensus on that, then I'm open to redoing them.

[ben_allison]

FWIW, here's a newer version with the older, but better, scratch guitars, and re-mixed/re-comped drums, that I apparently neglected to post here:

http://www.roestudios.com/dump/warzone_remixed.wav