Stereo Widening Plugz & Pressing Vinyl

[PSN Big Al]

When talking about stereo widening plugz (DUY's Wide in this
case) this question was posed to me...

"Have you ever heard that these kind of effects can't be used
when going to vinyl because they make the needle skip?"

Well, I dunno. I know that you used to have to keep your bass
freqs centered long, long ago because of something similar.

Anyone know the concrete answer to this?


.

[luke_m]

Big Al, your a champion for taking the time to post this, I just signed up so I could say that!!!:Roll eyes:

...But yeah, Even If nobody knows about the DUY Plugs,... (or of the rumour that widening plugins can have phase issues which when pressed to vinyl make turntable needles skip)

Has anyone mixed / mastered albums that have gone to vinyl? Did you have to keep anything in mind when doing so.

[DPower]

My experience has been that, like Big Al said, keep your frequencies under 250Hz mono or near mono (the lower the closer to total mono you should be, around 200-250Hz it's not such a big deal if you want a little chorused or stereo phase shift going on) and you should be OK. I haven't done any massive pseudo-stereo trickery across the mix because I know that many clubs run a mono system and that's just asking for problems right there, but I use it on certain background instruments and noises to give them more width. So far no reports of destroyed styluses from the manufacturers and turntable needles track just fine.

[EDIT]

BTW, the mastering engineer at the pressing plant will often arbitrarily mono-ize your bass for you anyways, so if you do apply any pseudo-stereo fx you may hear a total sucking sound, or worse a complete lack of bass on your records.

[Charles Dye]

I can't answer the vinyl question, but in my experience DUY Wide is 100% mono-compatible. No disappearing instruments @ all. No bass issues whatsoever. No giant sucking sound.

Just the sound of wider than your speakers stereo.

[Comte de St Germain]

I can't answer the vinyl question, but in my experience DUY Wide is 100% mono-compatible. No disappearing instruments @ all. No bass issues whatsoever. No giant sucking sound.

Just the sound of wider than your speakers stereo.

I love the DUY plug but it can effect instruments oddly in mono. Nothing major just a slight amplification of the differential that is already there. Anything over 25% is asking for trouble IMO.

It is to my ears the best option. The Waves bermuda triangle being a real dog IMO. Wave Arts Panorama is a bit more power than what we are speaking of here but in the right place it can be supa cool.

[Bob Olhsson]

...BTW, the mastering engineer at the pressing plant will often arbitrarily mono-ize your bass for you anyways, so if you do apply any pseudo-stereo fx you may hear a total sucking sound, or worse a complete lack of bass on your records.Only a real hack who is unwilling to spend the time and blanks to do test cuts does that unless the mix has big problems.

The problem with off-center bass has to do with the amount of power involved. Monoing the low end kills the spaciousness of the sound because our sense of size comes largely from low frequency room tone and reverberation. Just precisely (and I mean to a tenth of a dB.) centering the kick and bass generally does the trick along with making sure there are no breath pops.

[luke_m]

wow, what a great forum, thanks for sharing, havent heard back from the folks at DUY or the person I was hoping to get to do the mastering (http://www.davecooley.com/ purely for the fact his vinyl work sounds great.)

Seems like this question stumps everyone...

Surely the fact that it holds up ok in mono would be the key.

I wonder, with the wide plugin - can you set it on the master fader and have it skip the bass frequencys and just widen the mids and highs, or would i need to do something different...

p.s. if i find out any definate answers i will post them here for future folks to read. thanks :Uh oh:

[teacher]

aren't alot of old records done with the bass panned almost completely to 1 side?

I know this because of I sample alot of old records and noticed this phenomena. I"m guessings 60's 70's era...

[Bob Olhsson]

Only overdubbed 4 track stuff that was intended for mono and "remixed" for stereo by the label mooks. Serious stereo mixing didn't begin until around 1967. Serious surround mixing hasn't begun yet!

[Skwaidu]

Yeah, just opening the multitracks and we have "daring" 60's panning... Which never was intended, it seems. (Though it's always fun to hear 'em...)

But occasionally, the myth (among other things) is making the youth of today to pan radically and that ain't a bad thing!

[luke_m]

Dear Luke,

Thanks for your message.

I'm not sure about the exact procedures you use when going to vinyl. An extreme effect may have relevance in the performance of the needle, however, there are many records out there in vinyl with all kinds of heavy effects which translate into a tiring job for the needle. The trick with any plug-in (including Wide) is to give the mix the perfect amount of effect. If you wanted to exaggerate the efect of Wide, you may as well use a chorus or a flanger. Wide is meant for a polishing master finish, carefully positioning the sound outside physically-possible speaker positions. If you're wondering if there'll be a strain on the needle when pressing to vinyl, it may be a different effect you're looking for! ;)

Best regards

Xavier
DUY

[5down1up]

not really an expert on this one, but i did master some stuff for vinyl and used some stereo widening fx ( waves ) on the 2track.
didnt affect the vinyl and all worked out well. :Thumbsup:

i heard about the needle skipping and was concerned about it, too. cant report what you have to do to make that happen ?

( placing the turntable on a subwoofer can help a lot :grin: )

[recall]

.

I wonder, with the wide plugin - can you set it on the master fader and have it skip the bass frequencys and just widen the mids and highs, or would i need to do something different...

p.s. if i find out any definate answers i will post them here for future folks to read. thanks :Uh oh:

Hi,

You can't do this on the master bus but one way I have been doing it is by having two master busses/auxes send you kick and bass to one aux. Keep this stricktly mono then send everything else to the other aux and strap DUY Wide over it.

these two auxes theb combine to your master fader.

The only thing that could prevent you doing this is if you have any kind of saturation over the master bus, as this will now obviously be affecting the widened stem after its been widened.

Just try it out I guess. I alway place DUY after my saturation never before.

[Xavi - DUY]

A very interesting question...

The fact is that it's highly improbable that the needle jumps when going to vinyl due to an improper use of DUY Wide. It's not 100% impossible, because it depends entirely on the type of material you process and the respect to the vinylizing process.

By explaining the Boosting section, you will clearly understand:

The Boosting section does an enhancing process using the model of an analog filter. This filter is not a low pass filter from a strict point of view, but its origin is in a circuit that only boosts the lower part of the spectrum. It’s based on a tube’s system, with a discrete analog summing stage. Intentionally, the tube (valve) includes the higher part of the spectrum, untouched. This is what you call a hybrid-modified transfer model.

This is where the physical part comes into it: this enhancing model acts on both channels at the same time, in a coherent manner with regards to phase. If the original material is out of phase, the process will not solve the problem. When you apply the Boost, the difference in phase also increases. This is where you’d be in trouble. Obviously this is in relation to a very specific case in which your original audio material is extremely (and somewhat unlikely) out of phase.

However, you must consider all the pases of audio engineering with regards to this matter:

1) If the final master is for vinyl, the “pressing” engineer must respect the protocol in the exchange of data from one media to another. In the case of vinyl, he must “mono-ize” (convert to mono) the signal below a certain established cutoff frequency. This is part of the protocol in transferring to vinyl. Obviously you can ignore this point, but it’s a big risk.

2) The mix engineer should know the details of the final media on which the master should be presed. Vinyl? Digital Stereo? Multichannel? Especially in an extreme mix. (By the way, we can consider an “extreme mix” any that chooses to exagerate the independence between channels for FX reasons). As Bernie Grundman would say, you need to apply “common sense to the mix and the master”. If the project is for vinyl, and there’s a LF section only in the left channel, with huge phase differences compared to the right channel, and the producer forces you to put that effect only on the left channel, you have an excellent candidate to have a needle jumping like mad… Regardless of the use of DUY Wide or not!!. You can then tell the pressing engineer to screw his head on and make sure he uses his best knowledge to make sure there are no problems in that section. You can also do some extra processing on the mix to help: For example you can take the contents of the signal that produces the phase difference and send them to an Aux track. Use a comb filter to allow only the frequencies between 0 Hz and 100 Hz to pass the filter. Apply the result on the opposite channel. The applied filter must be phase-coherent and have no delays. You will then be able to measure spectrums and phases and adjust both channels in such a way that the differences between those channels is minimum. This would thrill the producer 

3) Does all this mean I always have to study the state of my phase? Yes. Always! It’s the engineer’s job. It’s true that for a final digital media destination, phase inaccuracies are more “tolerable” than in vinyl, because the needle won’t jump. But you’ll still hear those inaccuracies (depending on your hearing capabilities). So… always check phase!!

4) I’m including a DSPider (or ReDSPider) preset which basically “mono-izes” a stereo signal, with a cutoff control frequency point. When this frequency is at 0 Hz (zero Hertz), the signal is not modified. Above the cutoff point, the signal is separated from its stereo, converting itself to Mono and feeding back into the audio path. This is probably the best process in the vinyl protocol for needle jumping. You can download it from the link below:

http://www.duy.com/plug-ins/Monificator.zip

I hope this text is of help to you all!! ;)

Best regards


Xavier Sanchez-Roemmele
& Jose I. Martin
DUY
http://www.duy.com (http://www.duystore.com)

[luke_m]

Wow thankyou for your in depth reply, So great to have you on this forum!

I have downloaded the Zip, and will test Wide when Cubase 4 stops messing developers round with there VST stuff!

Thanks again!!:Thumbsup:
Luke