Define a 'good room'

[lebouche]

I was reading the thread on mixing perspective and felt at a loss.

I'm considering moving to a larger place which would be more suitable to bands wishing to record live. The new place is about 800 sq ft and I'm off to see it on Thurs. Thing is I have to soundproof a little as I will have neighbours. The walls are brick but I'm gonna have to add a few layers....now a 'good room' must surely sound like a room...thus have some reflections that tell you about the space rather than a softened treated space which hides all of its sonic characters. Then again maybe this definition means a neutral sounding space.
Please apply your combined wisdom.
Thanks:Thumbsup:

[lebouche]

otek



Re: Perspective in Mixing
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Suitcase
often in less than perfect circumstances
Oh yes, I am but too familiar with this one.

I suppose if you plan to record the band in a very "natural" live setting, one of the first points on the program would be some location scouting. Doesn't have to be a studio, as long as you can find an interesting, good-sounding room, where the band feel at ease with their sound.

Perhaps you just mean brick walls..hope this isnt another dumb question!:Confused:

[otek]

Perhaps you just mean brick walls..hope this isnt another dumb question!:Confused:

I meant that some rooms actually sound pretty damn good even if no conscious acoustic design work went into creating them. Or, they may at least have some pleasant sonic signature to them. While something like, say, a small chapel may have been built in part with musical performance in mind, the acoustics vary greatly.

I have recorded in a lot of different spaces, stairwells, a movie theater, a school house, several churches and an old mill. All of them had interesting acoustics that gave flavor to the production.

The main thing is to not arbitrarily dampen everything to smithereens. Build large gobos for the drum kit and the various amplifiers, so you can control the environment. Naturally, the room needs some thought too, but if you're lucky, you can maybe get away with smaller modifications to start with.

Get a qualified acoustician, or you'll be shooting in the dark.

[Brendo]

To me... A good room is any room that you like the sound of, any room that sounds interesting to you, and would add that little extra something to your recording...

There's a scout hall near here that I like the sound of, which I seem to end up recording drums in a lot, for instance. High ceilings, wood everywhere. Rectangular, sloping roof. Obviously not designed for acoustics, but sounds interesting/good anyway.

I've recorded the same drummer with the same kit, with much more expensive mics in a treated studio situation and it came out pretty vomitworthy. We retracked in the bass player's attic...

[lebouche]

Build large gobos for the drum kit and the various amplifiers, so you can control the environment.

I was in a studio recently and they had two sheets of perspex either side of the drum kit...is that what you mean? Some sort of isolation to minimise bleed and then use room mics just to add the mix of instruments to taste.
I guess the flavour of the room can be pretty make or break...
Cheers

[slabrock]

I meant that some rooms actually sound pretty damn good even if no conscious acoustic design work went into creating them. Or, they may at least have some pleasant sonic signature to them.
---
Get a qualified acoustician, or you'll be shooting in the dark.

Yep, i've several times walked into rooms and suddenly cried: "I want to record drums here!" All kinds of rooms.

My own house is an example of that. Of course i love the apple trees and the countryside, but what really decided it, were the floated wooden floors and tilted walls & ceilings and the all-log structure with the 20ft high living room. How could i not buy such a house when it was on sale?
:D :D :D

Yes, this house was designed by an acoustician for a local classical musician & music teacher. They even had the speaker leads ready inside the wall for the best speaker placement, to spots where the opposite walls were tilted right. And in the yard there's a sweet spot of natural slapback very much like Sun Studios, if i ever get to do that rockabilly album.

I was in a studio recently and they had two sheets of perspex either side of the drum kit...is that what you mean? Some sort of isolation to minimise bleed and then use room mics just to add the mix of instruments to taste.
I guess the flavour of the room can be pretty make or break...
Cheers

Isolation, yes. Perspex - preferably not. Unless you want that loud 1970's sound (The Sweet, Slade...) where the drums really hit back.

It's possible that you don't have to alter the room as much as you think. Maybe you can work out an agreement with your neighbors, that some noise can be present some times. Do it first, go see your new neighbors and introduce yourself. It'll go a long way, if they can judge you on good light and not as just somebody who fills the neighborhood with musicians, junkies and other lowlife
:Wink:

Peace,

Slabrock

[Holm]

Hi!

A good room might sound like anything. It all depends. "A good room" doesn't ONLY mean Phil Collins drums or John Bonham drums.

It's actually quite hard to recognize a good room sound, if you haven't experienced it knowingly and don't know what to expect.

If possible, visit good studios, their live rooms and their control rooms, bring along a friend, clap your hands and TALK to each other. Do you hear him clearly? Do yo LIKE how any of your voices sound? Do you hear him clearly 5 feet away and 20 feet away? Or does it all get muddy 20 feet away and you don't understand anything he says, until he almost starts yelling to yo? Do that in other spaces and try to make a mental note about differences.

A good room might actually sound dead to you - like I said (actually, stole it from Ekko back at the MARSH) - a good room sound is not only eighties snare drum reverb. It might sound dead, because all the reflections are well balanced and of similar length. A BAD room usually has some dampening happening on the higher frequency spectrum and looooong reverbant shit on the low frequency spectrum. That's, of course, because controlling high end is the most obvious - anyone can hear flutter instantly, hugh frequency content is the easiest and cheapest thing to treat acoustically. Treating low end is a motherfucker.

So - a good room might sound DEAD do you, while being very much not, just very well diffused and very much balanced. These rooms you usually find at smaller studios, with smaller recording rooms - because small reverbant rooms, while having a definite character, that character might not always be desireable and practical to all kinds of possible production scenarios. So, don't be scared of "dead" rooms. But don't mistake a dull foam chamber for a good sounding dead room. At a particular construction stage of my studio I had all the walls and ceilings in the booth covered only with soft fibreglass and I tell you. The room was difficult to breathe in, lest speaking a word in. Many guys preferred full blown flutter to that room "tone".

So... what was my point? Dunno, if I had one, but a good room might sound dead, open and anything in between. Just try to discern, if it sounds pleasant to your ears, musical, or is it overly and unmusically reverbant and thrashy. But first you gotta learn to listen. Took me many years.

Also, brain is a powerful filter and does it's best to eliminate any anomalies you hear. Microphones aren't.

[santeri]

Yep, i've several times walked into rooms and suddenly cried: "I want to record drums here!" All kinds of rooms.

My own house is an example of that.

Another example of the same from our house: CaPE III Team Catharsis nyckelharpa tracks. Our library/living room combination with high ceiling and all stone floors/walls makes a very good chapel simulation for the ambience mics. Perfect place to track strings. :very happy:

[santeri]

Hi!

Hey, long time no hear from you. :Thumbsup:

[Holm]

Hey, long time no hear from you. :Thumbsup:

:) yeah, whatsitbeen? 2 years? more? how ya been? Me fine, built 1 studio in the meantime!

[slabrock]

Another example of the same from our house:

Your house is even more unbelieveable. Hard to track drums, though, with all those cats getting panicky, i should believe :lol: :lol: :lol:

Peace,

Slabrock

[Skwaidu]

Hey, long time no hear from you. :Thumbsup:

Yeah, hi holm! ;)

[otek]

Hard to track drums, though, with all those cats getting panicky

I think it might be a bad idea.

[Ethan Winer]

Do you hear him clearly 5 feet away and 20 feet away? Or does it all get muddy 20 feet away and you don't understand anything ... A BAD room usually has some dampening happening on the higher frequency spectrum and looooong reverbant shit on the low frequency spectrum ... small reverbant rooms, while having a definite character, that character might not always be desireable

You nailed it. Small room ambience is generally bad ambience because the reflections are early, and whatever "reverb" there may be is resonant and emphasizes one frequency over all others.

Another big problem with small rooms is the comb filtering caused by multiple nearby reflecting surfaces. Comb filtering is caused by the same reflections as the echoes, so it's not easy to separate (semantically) the echoes from the skewed response. The same things happen in larger rooms too when the absorption is not uniform versus frequency, or you have microphones too near to a reflecting surface.

--Ethan

[santeri]

:) yeah, whatsitbeen? 2 years? more? how ya been? Me fine, built 1 studio in the meantime!

All's fine, thanks. And yeah, it's been too long, gotta get the full Baltic Sea connection back to the meets...

[malice]

Nice to have you back Holm

and btw, you're spot on with this subject

:Thumbsup:


malice

[Holm]

Hi y'all!

Feels great to be back, until now I was more oin a "deep lurk" mode...

Thanks for the warm welcome!

[otek]

Holm brings up a very good point - a good room is not necessarily a big room, even though bigger rooms are generally more versatile.

Btw welcome, Holm, good to have you here! :Thumbsup:

[Spock]

Another example of the same from our house: CaPE III Team Catharsis nyckelharpa tracks. Our library/living room combination with high ceiling and all stone floors/walls makes a very good chapel simulation for the ambience mics. Perfect place to track strings. :very happy:

Yea, but it tends make snoring echo around a bit to much. At least that's what I was told, I was too busy sleeping.
:Roll eyes: