Killer high gain pedal, Suhr Riot. Here's my demo!

[ben_allison]

I've been through them all. Most high-gain pedals are fizzy, have no real MEAT to them, and they don't have the same feel or response as playing into a big angry amplifier.

The new Riot, though... well, it's pretty sexy. Plus the voicing is perfect. It's got that killer thing going on in the mids that you typically hear in the "brown sound," which is something I've always sought after. Anyway, I made a quick demo. Please pardon the sloppy playing!

The video tells you everything you need to know about the setup. Basically, Les Paul into my 66 Bassman 2x10 combo.

YQlgSn2D_eU

If you want to listen to the uncompressed WAV: http://www.roestudios.com/dump/RiotDemo.wav

[Brendo]

Sounds like it would be really good for punk and stuff... dunno that I would use it for metal.

[ben_allison]

Sounds like it would be really good for punk and stuff... dunno that I would use it for metal.

Thanks for checking it out!

I dunno. It seems pretty metally to me... maybe more metalcore or post-metal. Listening back to back against an Underoath disc it seems to hold it's own... if you need MOAR for something like As I Lay Dying or Despised Icon, dialing up more gain on the pedal would get it there (it was only being run around half). And of course, boosting it might help too.

You have to remember: the clip was recorded with an open back, 2x10 Fender combo. While nothing replaces a big head going into a big cabinet, I haven't heard too many Fender combos sound like that... if you tend to play combos at smaller gigs, or where stage volume is a big consideration, it's a neat option.

[weedywet]

sounds metal to me, I wouldn't use it for punk


I would like to hear an example that didn't sound limited though...

[CaptainHook]

sounds metal to me, I wouldn't use it for punk

+1.

I'd prob at least try less gain for 'metal' also. See if it could
be more 'brutal'.

[ben_allison]

sounds metal to me, I wouldn't use it for punk


I would like to hear an example that didn't sound limited though...

There was only about 2db of compression on the buss, then about 1db with a limiter to catch overs.

[Brendo]

Ben, yes, you're right of course - by "punk" I was meaning hardcore punk, hardcore, metalcore.

[John Eppstein]

There seems to be a lot of "punk" around these days that I wouldn't call punk in a million years. My attitude is shared by pretty much all the punk rock musicians I know.......

Not to get into another one of those stupid genre definition arguments.

[Dave Perry]

I'd only use this pedal for nu-metal.

Cause it's a nu-pedal.

And...stuff.

[Brendo]

The tone and the style ben was playing in just reminds me of this, that's all.

RriDMhBrTGM

Which somehow fits under 'hardcore punk', at least from a 2005 definition. Pop punk with screams.

[Brendo]

This demo sounds more like I'd expect the pedal to sound..

SCNA7Z6tPnc

It definitely does sound more "metally" here than whatever-core.

Which way did you have the voice switch ben?

[David Aurora]

i already have a couple amps i love so i wont be rushing out to buy one of these, but i gotta say this sounds like the first distortion pedal ive ever heard that didnt make me wanna stick my dick in a light socket and flick the switch. i'd tweak it a bit different to the examples here, but it sounds like it would be capable of sounding the way i would set an amp. good to see that some people out there building pedals actually understand that its not just a matter of setting the thing to stun and calling it a day

[Brendo]

It does sound 1000x better than my Zoom Trimetal - which I've been considering throwing up on eBay. I mean I picked it up for 50 bucks or so, the one before it which I missed out on got to almost 300..!

That would be more than enough to fund the purchase of a Riot.

[Pimp-X]

I like it.

[Brendo]

Yeah, I do too. Trying to work out who sells them in Australia.

[John Eppstein]

The tone and the style ben was playing in just reminds me of this, that's all.

RriDMhBrTGM

Which somehow fits under 'hardcore punk', at least from a 2005 definition. Pop punk with screams.

S'not real punk. That has HARMONIES!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzajMDiJ2Lk

Disclaimer: The Rebels' bass player plays lead guitar in my country/blues/rock band........

[Brendo]

well shit, whatever fucking genre it is, it's not metal either, which means my first post still stands

[weedywet]

The tone and the style ben was playing in just reminds me of this, that's all.


Which somehow fits under 'hardcore punk', at least from a 2005 definition. Pop punk with screams.

classic example of why the genre labeling is ultimately fruitless
I can't see how this is remotely "punk"


by the way, this IS the worst sounding bass drum I have ever heard

congratulations!, to whomever


apparently from what I have heard so far, this pedal makes your drums sounds really awful and cliché

[Dave Perry]

Now we truly need a thread that will serve as the platform to argue the meaning of "punk".

It shall be called Worst bass drum sound. Ever.

[CaptainHook]

by the way, this IS the worst sounding bass drum I have ever heard


The original post or Brendo's post? I've only played back on
my laptop speakers so far so haven't really heard any kick drum.

[weedywet]

this is a pretty straight ahead and, to me, informative demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPEQ6aSHrjU

[Cary Chilton]

classic example of why the genre labeling is ultimately fruitless
I can't see how this is remotely "punk"


by the way, this IS the worst sounding bass drum I have ever heard

congratulations!, to whomever


apparently from what I have heard so far, this pedal makes your drums sounds really awful and cliché

+1 It isn't punk at all.

The first clip, it sounded very Mesa-like that had been tweaked too dark.

THe second, sounded much more open in the mids and highs to about 3kHz-ish. Not much over that... Not surprising it sounds fucking great with a Suhr amp. ;) Very JCM 800 meets Bogner-like.

I would be interested to hear this pedal sound this good with another amp other than a suhr amp. Also I would be curious to hear a lead clip with BRIDGE pickup and still sound amazing.





I do know from many chats with some of the top boteek pedals makers in the US who also guitar amplifer makers, that getting a solid state pedal to sound close to a great tube has been the hardest undertaking that they have ever tried... for obvious reasons. Which boteek makers? Um.... Bjorn at Mad Prof, Paul C at TIM, the guy Menatone, Klon's Bill, Zach at Zvex, and the Fulltone's maker.

I HAD a Dynamic Red Distortion now called the mighty red distortion. Worked great, stacked great, too. However, it liked Fender types the most. Into a clean 1959 12 series marshall and or my vintage 69 Marshall it lost something, dummied down, filtered, lo-fi'd the amp sound too much... adding the amp's drive into the equation didn't do much, imo... Zvex's BOR was great into most amps, even modern marshalls, but not with my marshalls...it was redundant anyway, using a box in front of the very thing it is trying to imitate. um, ..nah....
I could go on and on with many pedals that failed in this respect.

Basically, I looked for pedals, when I had GAS...that sounded as great in other amps as my 12 series Marshalls. I came up with a very short list.

I will that all aren't bad pedals. Find your own for your own rig.
I just happen to love the open drive sound of my marshalls and I don't care much for the modern Marshalls. However, having said that, just because the modern Marshall or other amps for that matter, wouldn't be my desert Island amp, doesn't mean I wouldn't consider them for a particular song. ;)


If this someone can find a clip of this pedal sounding killer as the second clip with another amp, I would consider picking this baby up for myself.

Until then, if your budget permits... definitely buy a stagehog and stephensonamps.com. I bought one 2 years ago. It IS like a nanoamp in that it is an amp but much better and versatile, handmade, and it never sounds like a pedal ...guaranteed. It can serve as a 1 RMS watt practice amp or as a pedal. It is superpedal friendly in front or behind the chain so gain schedule your pants off. Since this thing is an amp, when using it in the pedal chain, I usually have a mock slave amp set up. Using a full sized amp, set clean or clean-ish and feed it with the Stagehog and other pedals preceding it. Works fucking great. Very simple to bring to a gig, too.

[John Eppstein]

well shit, whatever fucking genre it is, it's not metal either, which means my first post still stands

Nah. Sits, maybe. Stands? Um, er, well........... sorry, no.:Wink::lol:

[otek]

boteek pedals makers in the US....

Bjorn at Mad Prof

Last I checked, Björn was still in Sweden.

And yes, he makes some awesome stuff. I have a feeling you might like his amps.... :Wink:


otek

[Cary Chilton]

Last I checked, Björn was still in Sweden.

And yes, he makes some awesome stuff. I have a feeling you might like his amps.... :Wink:


otek

I would love to try his amps! 5000USD though... damn... yep I forgot a parathesis add location script...sorry!

[Trazan]

this is a pretty straight ahead and, to me, informative demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPEQ6aSHrjU

Oh man, I hate those kinda Youtube demos. Bedroom levels and camcorder mic in the other end of the room, giving you a mix of approx 50% distant amp and 50% unacoustic guitar.

[MKZ]

fuck you Ben Allison, now I'm wanting to get one :lol:

[Brendo]

classic example of why the genre labeling is ultimately fruitless
I can't see how this is remotely "punk"Skater Punk. It's an evolution of what The Offspring, Pennywise and NOFX do. Guessing you wouldn't call them punk either?

Either way - my original point still stands, it's not "metal" either.

by the way, this IS the worst sounding bass drum I have ever heard

congratulations!, to whomeverSomeone in Melbourne. Not me. It's a truly awful sounding demo, but that's what the guitar tone reminds me of. I think the band has completely disowned that recording, as it's not even on the discography page on their website.

I would be interested to hear this pedal sound this good with another amp other than a suhr amp. Also I would be curious to hear a lead clip with BRIDGE pickup and still sound amazing.Second half of the solo of the example that I dug up.

Ben... any chance of a clip more along the lines of the one I found?

[ben_allison]

lulz in this thread.

Ok:

1) My demo was into an 66 Bassman, made into a openback 2x10 combo. Obviously Pete Thorn's demo sounds a bit more open/whatever, but he was running into an OD100 and Badger, into a Bogner Cube. But I felt like he was coming at it more from a "hard rock" place, song wise.

I think my demo is a bit more useful because it shows what can be expected for the average customer that'd want something like this... namely, someone who has a Fender-style combo, but needs a passable high-gain pedal.

If I was running into something like my Rockerverb, into a 4x12, it'd be a way different story.

2) Punk, hardcore, metal. Genre labels can be sticky. Influences for my clip were Underoath and Russian Circles.

Maybe I'll do another demo that's more death metal inspired? I'm not a metal player, so it'd be a challenge.

3) @ Brendo: Left gtr was toggle center, right gtr was toggle right, tremelo pickin lead guitar was toggle left (which the fattest, germanium setting).

All playing was with the bridge pup in my LP (Custom 5).

[weedywet]

I'm not dissing your demo Ben

it's just that to ME, hearing JUST the pedal, unadorned, instead of in a production where I can never know what else was done or what effect it had, is more helpful

obviously your approach is the opposite, and might work better for some

the guitar certainly sounds BETTER in yours, which makes me suspicious, because in the 'plain' demo the pedal seems fairly unimpressive, to me

[ben_allison]

I'm not dissing your demo Ben

it's just that to ME, hearing JUST the pedal, unadorned, instead of in a production where I can never know what else was done or what effect it had, is more helpful

obviously your approach is the opposite, and might work better for some

the guitar certainly sounds BETTER in yours, which makes me suspicious, because in the 'plain' demo the pedal seems fairly unimpressive, to me

I didn't think you were dissing me at all! This turned out to be a good convo!

I did it in a band context because people don't realize the punch and size of guits comes from drums and bass! So, in context, you can see how it'd work.

Here are the guitars on their own:

http://www.roestudios.com/dump/Riot-guits-only.wav

Again, pardon the sloppy playing! You can hear that solo'd, the guits seem a bit more grainy and less bass heavy than in the mix... but they work IN the mix.

Also, 66 Bassman open back 2x10...

[Cary Chilton]

I'm not dissing your demo Ben

it's just that to ME, hearing JUST the pedal, unadorned, instead of in a production where I can never know what else was done or what effect it had, is more helpful

obviously your approach is the opposite, and might work better for some

the guitar certainly sounds BETTER in yours, which makes me suspicious, because in the 'plain' demo the pedal seems fairly unimpressive, to me

THat is PETER THORN, guitarist for Chris Cornell, who has his own Suhr amp called the PT100. He has TONS of AMAZING guitars and amps and I think he is a decent engineer on the side. He all his gear demos on his macbook and he is great player, too. He has great discerning ears. I think his recording is pretty good. I tried to find out what his gear was, but I deleted his email. He had a CAD ribbon couple years ago. All remember is that his LDC is the same as what wombian lambro uses, goes for about 1200 usd and his AD/DA has a decent mic pre, too. I think it is 2000-3000 usd. Can't remember anymore than that.

[Cary Chilton]

fuckin sold out everywhere until mid to late Jan.

oh well, I can wait...

[TripsieD]

How much are these running for? I can't seem to find a price...mebbe I'm just not looking in the right place.

[ben_allison]

They go for $200.

[John Eppstein]

Skater Punk.

Really?

(The previous) Doesn't sound much like anything the skate punks who hang down at Lennon Studios play.......(comments on The Offspring, Pennywise and NOFX later.)

http://www.lennonstudios.com/clients.html

(Note - there are also a lot of clients on the list who are NOT skate punks (obviously, when you read the list) - but skate punks run the place and pretty much always have.......) BTW, I wouldn't really use "skate punk" and "evolved" together - punks and skateboards have been together since the late '70s.

Now here's a skate punk! (and quite a bit more....)

http://www.crucifixonline.com/

and the band from which his name derives.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifix_(band)

http://www.myspace.com/crucifixofficial

Here's some punk fer ya!

http://www.myspace.com/verbalabuserocks

As far as "what The Offspring, Pennywise and NOFX do. Guessing you wouldn't call them punk either?"

Yeah, they're punk - more or less. The Offspring get pretty close to pop at times...... Pop meaning like Green Day........

The stuff all the skaters around here listen to - and play - is a good deal thrashier for the most part. Of course anything that attains really widespread success is generally a bit tamer than the grassroots stuff it derives from.... nowadays, anyway.

Genre arguments are boring........ it's all just words, anyway. I'm more interested in music.

To get back to the subject - That pedal sounds pretty interesting. I don't generally go for a lot of pedals, especially distortion and overdrive pedals because they usually sound fake to me, however this one might be worth picking up. I'm certainly thinking about it.......

[ben_allison]

To get back to the subject - That pedal sounds pretty interesting. I don't generally go for a lot of pedals, especially distortion and overdrive pedals because they usually sound fake to me, however this one might be worth picking up. I'm certainly thinking about it.......

'zactly.

I've tried every high gain pedal under the sun, and ended up getting a Rockerverb because pedals weren't cutting it!

This... is something different.

The only other high gain pedals that come even close for high gain is the Openhaus and the ReezaFRATzitz, being more Mesa'ish and Marshally, respectively.

[weedywet]

Tried the Zvex Box of Metal or Box of Rock?

[otek]

Or for that matter, the PisdiYAUwot?


otek

[John Eppstein]

Or for that matter, the PisdiYAUwot?


otek

What?

[Brendo]

Ben - "death metal inspired" is a bit much even - just something more like... eh, I dunno, some of the simpler Metallica stuff. Palm mutes, lots of chugging on the low E, triplet chugs etc.

For death metal I've already got the Pedal Of Choice™ - the Boss HM2.

[MKZ]

For death metal I've already got the Pedal Of Choice™ - the Boss HM2.

I know that's a joke, but maybe that's why some of the death metal bands suck so much because they think they need triple rectalfiers and metal zones to be death metal. I think if they just plugged into a Marshall they might sound more br00taaahl. But I might be completely wrong on that.

[Brendo]

Uh, actually no. The HM2 i.e. the Boss Heavy Metal - not the Metal Zone (ew).

Observe:

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OFom-4Lnj9E&fmt=18

[ben_allison]

Tried the Zvex Box of Metal or Box of Rock?

They're both farty. Not really all that tight. They sound like fuzzes to me. The OCD or DLS is better for cranked Marshall tones. Hell, a modded DS1 can even be great! BoM is just not right at all.

Or for that matter, the PisdiYAUwot?

otek

Oh man, I waited well over a year for that to come out. I see on their site, it's finally in production!!!

I WILL get one. Probably a Reeza 2 as well. Emma makes simply brilliant gear.

The original Reeza was so good, I have HIGH hopes for the Pisdi...

Ben - "death metal inspired" is a bit much even - just something more like... eh, I dunno, some of the simpler Metallica stuff. Palm mutes, lots of chugging on the low E, triplet chugs etc.

For death metal I've already got the Pedal Of Choice™ - the Boss HM2.

I can whip up something like that. I have a friend that's busting my balls because my demo wasn't "metal enough."

I think I'll do another demo some time soon!

[weedywet]

I agree that I much prefer the Fulltone stuff (including just the Fulldrive, not only the OCD) to the Box Of Rock

but I know some metalheads who seem to love the Box Of Metal

[Cary Chilton]

Fulltone stuff is great. Never tried a fatboost yet, though...
THe Fulldrive sounds MUCH better in a Fender amp though... through my vintage 69 and 1959 handwired and modded RI the fulldrive II blows as hard as the BOR-ed

[weedywet]

The Fatboost is a great clean booster (more like a Rangemaster)

it just seems to make every amp just sound BETTER, even when it barely does anything to the gain

[MGMc]

Here's some punk fer ya!

http://www.myspace.com/verbalabuserocks


VA ROCKS YOUR LIVER!

[Cary Chilton]

Just bought the Riot from a suhr dealer today! Should be here in a week or so. Looking forward to messin' with it!

[otek]

For death metal I've already got the Pedal Of Choice™ - the Boss HM2.

I know that's a joke

Uh, actually no.

Some classic death metal albums were made with a Boss HM-2 pedal DI'd into the console!


otek

[Cary Chilton]

Some classic death metal albums were made with a Boss HM-2 pedal DI'd into the console!


otek

DI'd???? How can you DI from a pedal? I asked about this when I first joined the womb and got laughed at!

[otek]

DI'd???? How can you DI from a pedal? I asked about this when I first joined the womb and got laughed at!

Guitar -> Distortion Pedal -> D.I. box -> Console.

Whether you get an appropriate sound for what you are trying to do, however, is up to you.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

Otek, I have recently some engineers guitar> dist. box> DI> DAW using amp simulator.

How did the guitar>hm-2>DI>console technically work without an amp sim??


BTW the Menatone None MORE black pedal seems very cool. I might have to buy that one, too. DAMNIT I haven't even got my Riot yet.

Also I haven't tried this one, but many swear the Rocktron Metal Planet is the best Metal pedal ever made. Maybe Brendo can chime in. I think the Riot and NMB are the amp in a box types second to none, but for hardcore metal pedals? Metal Planet? or HM-2 or both? ;)

[otek]

How did the guitar>hm-2>DI>console technically work without an amp sim??

Technically it should work exactly like taking an electric guitar DI. The DI converts the signal to mic level/impedance.

As for the sonic result, listen to some of the early Swedish death metal albums - Entombed's Left Hand Path or Dismember's Like And Ever-Flowing Stream are two good places to start.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

Ahh Cookie Monster metal! I have heard this guitar sound before in my Clerks soundtrack. So that is the HM-2 straight into DI huh?
Will any DI work, like my mbox2's or does the DI need to be pricier one?

Otek, do you remember my question about pedals into DI a long way back? I wondered why my overdrives didn't sound good into DI? The replies and I think, yours as well, was to the effect: the pedals' impedance is a mismatch and pedals arent made for DI.

I remember all my overdrives, cheap to pricy didn't sound good in DI when I tried it. So, is the HM-2 a very special case in its impedance and saturation and voicing, in that it almost seems to have speaker simulation in it's DI'd sound or will any distortion pedal work?

Anyone heard the None More Black yet or the Metal Planet?

[Brendo]

Also I haven't tried this one, but many swear the Rocktron Metal Planet is the best Metal pedal ever made. Maybe Brendo can chime in. I think the Riot and NMB are the amp in a box types second to none, but for hardcore metal pedals? Metal Planet? or HM-2 or both? ;)

Never tried the Metal Planet but the Silver Dragon does 80's metal kind of sounds well - when I got it I spent a week playing And Justice For All riffs.

HM2 is a very specific sound, it's an acquired taste. I use mine mainly as a solo boost, it's too mushy to work live as a main distortion for most music IMHO.

Zoom TriMetal used to have a good rep but it's been far surpassed, I think. It's way fizzy in the top end, I'm glad I picked this one up for like 50 bucks instead of the 300 they usually go for. Considering selling it. Good for layering on multitracks with an amp sound to kind of create a higher gain version of the amp sound... but then why not just clean boost the front of the amp and add that as a layer?

As for the sonic result, listen to some of the early Swedish death metal albums - Entombed's Left Hand Path or Dismember's Like And Ever-Flowing Stream are two good places to start.

I though the Entombed album was done with the HM2 with all knobs up into a Peavey Bandit miced from the back?

[otek]

Will any DI work, like my mbox2's or does the DI need to be pricier one?

Any device that does the designated job of a DI (impedance/level matching to mic input) will work.

I wondered why my overdrives didn't sound good into DI? The replies and I think, yours as well, was to the effect: the pedals' impedance is a mismatch and pedals arent made for DI.

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Let's put it this way: a distortion pedal into a DI will almost always give the typical DI ratty high end, this is in part due to impedance mismatches and also the fact that a pedal is designed to be played through an amp and cabinet, where a natural high-end roll-off occurs. Straight into the console, there's not enough "lossiness" for it to sound convincing as a "real amp" sound. Listen to Slipperman's Palmer box experiments, he goes through it in detail.

However - if you are experimenting with DI'd pedals you are probably not looking for a "real" amp sound anyway! So it's up to you to find a valid usage for the technique, if you can. Remember the old adage - if it sounds right, it IS right.

is the HM-2 a very special case in its impedance and saturation and voicing, in that it almost seems to have speaker simulation in it's DI'd sound or will any distortion pedal work?

Try reversing that line of thinking into: "The sound is what it is, how can I use it creatively?"

HM2 is a very specific sound, it's an acquired taste. I use mine mainly as a solo boost, it's too mushy to work live as a main distortion for most music IMHO.

OTOH, there are many recorded examples of this pedal used as the main distortion sound - for example, Joe Satriani's earlier albums are full of HM-2 rhythm sounds.

I though the Entombed album was done with the HM2 with all knobs up into a Peavey Bandit miced from the back?

As with all these things, there's plenty of "myth" being passed around, and I personally have no direct source of information about the Sunlight recordings. All I can say is, the technique originally came from Nihilist guitarist Leffe Cuzner (Nihilist eventually reformed as Entombed), and probably was refined and changed a lot over the years.

I know Dan Swanö (Edge of Sanity, Bloodbath) also used a lot of DI'd pedals for some of his earlier records.


otek

[Brendo]

OTOH, there are many recorded examples of this pedal used as the main distortion sound - for example, Joe Satriani's earlier albums are full of HM-2 rhythm sounds.

Oh sure, but it's kind of like the Big Muff - it tends to easily get lost live, or at least that's what I find. Do you agree?

[weedywet]

Big Muff gets "lost live"?


tell it to J. Mascis

[Cary Chilton]

JS might have used HM-2's when I met him he said he had used the Boss DS-1 from the beginning.

[otek]

Oh sure, but it's kind of like the Big Muff - it tends to easily get lost live, or at least that's what I find. Do you agree?

Not really, to be honest.

when I met him he said he had used the Boss DS-1 from the beginning.

There are times in life where you want to keep things brief and simple, for your own sanity....


otek

[Brendo]

Not really, to be honest.

Big Muff gets "lost live"?


tell it to J. Mascis

Maybe I'm doing it wrong. My amp's sound is pretty mushy to begin with, these pedals seem to just turn into a blur.

But then... I know the Smashing Pumpkins tried the Muffs live and ended up going back to their ADA MP2 rigs until they went JMP1... again because of the blurriness... so it can't just be me?

I'm guessing these pedals need to be set more on the brighter side to work live? Because I'm setting them towards the bass end, the only reason I have them is for "thickness".

Re: the Suhr... I wonder how that pedal holds up live?

[gonzo-x]

much love for my BARBER DIRECT DRIVE SS

[gonzo-x]

if you wanna hear it i'll post a clip....
otherwise, just take my word for it.
:D

[Cary Chilton]

Sure post a clip! I love clips. I would love Otek to post clip of him playing some classical guitar, too!

[gonzo-x]

HI CARY...

ok, here's one....

it's a tune called 'waiting to shine'

http://www.ourstage.com/tracks/ZBNKJYGGLDQM-waiting-to-shine



using the DDSS on all tracks, the rhythms are on the clean channel of a mesa boogie mark2b, set for slightly crunchy, with the pedal driving..

the solos are the DDSS again, pushing a clean-ish solo channel on the same boogie...

[gonzo-x]

here's another:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=661726&songID=7813405


it's called "The Strip"

all DDSS pushing the boogie again, on both the rhythm and the solo.

[gonzo-x]

ok, one more....
a guitar instrumental.

it's called "First Tracks", and is probably the best representative of the Barber pedal thru my rig.


http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2302&alid=-1


you can download higher bitrate mp3, or stream.


on this one, you can hear how the pedal reacts with the humbuckers on my custom strat (first half of song) and then how it responds to single coil sounds (the second half, done on the neck pickup)

[Cary Chilton]

NO FUCKING what happened, but my long post didn't save. So sorry I am not typing it again. THanks for the clips, very cool pedal. ;)

[Cary Chilton]

Well I had about 4 hours of jam time, bedroom volume though, on the Riot and it rocks! It has a nice open bass response but the low mid, mid is overdrive pedal sounding --so colored and a bit mid humped on 2 voicings. In comparison my Maxon SD-9 distortion pedal has more extended lows, but tight. The mids are slightly scooped or flat and there is a bit of presence bump but overall more open sounding than the Riot... at least with my G&L Alder, maple neck single Legacy ( strat). When my new guitar, JS1600, I put the Riot to the test again. The Whirlwind Gold Distortion, modern day distortion + demo clips sound promising. Also I really wanna try a Menatone None More Black, but it is kinda pricy.

[Brendo]

sfX5t854huE

[Cary Chilton]

sfX5t854huE

Basswood body guitar, usual muddy low mids.... I would rather hear ash/alder or mahogany

[otek]

Basswood body guitar, usual muddy low mids.... I would rather hear ash/alder or mahogany

Youtube sound quality?

Recording details other than equipment (like mic placement) unknown?

Amp volume, settings and placement unknown?

These and a myriad of other factors, and you seize on body wood selection as the cause of "muddy low mids"? :lol:


otek

[Cary Chilton]

Youtube sound quality?

Recording details other than equipment (like mic placement) unknown?

Amp volume, settings and placement unknown?

These and a myriad of other factors, and you seize on body wood selection as the cause of "muddy low mids"? :lol:


otek

Keep laughin' Otek, but I can hear it CLEARLY. You might not hear it clearly just like I might hear elements in a mix as clearly as you..... ;)

I wanted to add that I am sick hearing about youtube quality renders all audio useless for comparison sake...... not necessarily true... True most of the time, esp. if the person is a fish out of water with certain gear etc, no recording experience, etc etc the plethora of variables is staggering...... However, gear demos are still great as a basic idea, DESPITE youtube compression/artifacts ....

Further, IF someone experienced with one or more pieces of featured gear ( pedals, fx or amp or guitar and or all of above) AND if that person has a great ear and great experience for their instrument, ...............then, the familiar tones generated with such gear, and great discerning EAR -perhaps above average?, youtube audio quality and even their recording method and recording gear is not as important as many here think, at least, imo. Sure it is harder to hear, but it is possible to gather enough relevant audio information to a make a reasonably judgment.

For example, this is EXACTLY how I go about getting enough information, -on youtube demos- before buying a pedal. I haven't been wrong in 6 years to date! So obviously I can hear what the gear does, its character that it imparts and how it interacts with certain amps, speakers and esp guitars.... of course, I ASK the people what that gear is if I am not certain. I have enough experience pretty much most amps/ speakers and guitar ( pickups) out there so that helps me out a lot... ;)
It is not the method for everyone.... In fact I wouldn't recommend it to most people otherwise they'd most definitely be flipping the gear they bought within a week... there's a learning curve, some longer than others, and some never really get it. To make it simple, most experienced guitarists could recognize an SG into a JMP or early metal face, whether the playback be through a wall in another room, high passed like crazy, etc... it is the sound of that rig, if you know it you recognize it .... if you don't, you may learn to recognize it or you may NEVER....

[otek]

So you are saying that if I presented you with a recording of a guitar through an amp, and gave you the specifics of EVERYTHING in the chain EXCEPT for the guitar (including mic placement and amp settings, hey, let's be generous) you would be able to tell me with some degree of certainty which BODY WOOD was used in the guitar's construction?


otek

[Cary Chilton]

So you are saying that if I presented you with a recording of a guitar through an amp, and gave you the specifics of EVERYTHING in the chain EXCEPT for the guitar (including mic placement and amp settings, hey, let's be generous) you would be able to tell me with some degree of certainty which BODY WOOD was used in the guitar's construction?


otek

No I never said that.... The wood of THAT Suhr in the Utube vid is basswood and the all too familiar sound in the low mids was present. AS you said they are many variables in many recordings... I don't claim to be a magician, but I do think I'd surprise hell out of you on what I could discern regarding the world of electric guitar ;)

[Brendo]

The Suhr in question in fact does have a basswood body with a maple cap.









But you're still a dick, Cary :lol:

[Cary Chilton]

The Suhr in question in fact does have a basswood body with a maple cap.


But you're still a dick, Cary :lol:

:lol:

[otek]

No I never said that.... The wood of THAT Suhr in the Utube vid is basswood and the all too familiar sound in the low mids was present.

Did you hear that first and then confirm it, or did you read about the Suhr first and then assumed what you were hearing was because of the body wood?

I'm sure you're hearing SOMETHING familiar, but can you ascribe it with absolute certainty to that ONE factor among ALL the different parameters that come into play here? Including, but not limited to, the Maple top that Brendo correctly pointed out is attached to the Basswood?

I think I have told you before, as wood selection seems to be your "theme of the month", that it is a pretty sticky subject with TONS of variables in and of itself, let alone all the X-factors surrounding the recording.

It is also something which often has far too much significance attached to it (kind of like tube brands in a guitar amp). Master luthier Bob Benedetto once had some fun with these presumptions and built an archtop from "construction-grade pine, with blemishes and knot-holes", and it still sounded and played great.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

Did you hear that first and then confirm it, or did you read about the Suhr first and then assumed what you were hearing was because of the body wood?

I'm sure you're hearing SOMETHING familiar, but can you ascribe it with absolute certainty to that ONE factor among ALL the different parameters that come into play here? Including, but not limited to, the Maple top that Brendo correctly pointed out is attached to the Basswood?

I think I have told you before, as wood selection seems to be your "theme of the month", that it is a pretty sticky subject with TONS of variables in and of itself, let alone all the X-factors surrounding the recording.

It is also something which often has far too much significance attached to it (kind of like tube brands in a guitar amp). Master luthier Bob Benedetto once had some fun with these presumptions and built an archtop from "construction-grade pine, with blemishes and knot-holes", and it still sounded and played great.


otek

theme of the month? hmm.... guitar is my life dude....I just know what I know, if you can't believe it, I totally ok with that ;)

[otek]

I just know what I know, if you can't believe it, I totally ok with that ;)

As long as you are ok with me calling bullshit when I see it, I am totally ok with that. :D


otek

[Cary Chilton]

As long as you are ok with me calling bullshit when I see it, I am totally ok with that. :D


otek

well you can say what you like, doesn't hurt my feelings. :Coolio:

[otek]

well you can say what you like, doesn't hurt my feelings. :Coolio:

And of course, everyone knows I am ONLY visiting this forum to hurt your feelings.


otek

[Pimp-X]

I wanna debunk this wood selection thing, right here.

What I'm hearing in that video is clearly the builders choice to use galvanised brad type nails over your typical framing bright.

The nails used during construction have an incredible impact on the low mids.

So does your choice in spackle.

Discuss.

[onze_jef]

(...) Master luthier Bob Benedetto once had some fun with these presumptions and built an archtop from "construction-grade pine, with blemishes and knot-holes", and it still sounded and played great.


otek

you might like these:

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/120300pics.htm

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/070209pics.htm

[otek]

you might like these:

While I don't understand the luthier's little non sequitur about Ingvar Kamprad's political past, it certainly is a fun idea.


otek

[CaptainHook]

Anyone who claims to hear ANYTHING must prove it with double blind abx/xyz/123 testing!!##$$%*&@

[qharley]

I What I'm hearing in that video is clearly the builders choice to use galvanised brad type nails over your typical framing bright.

The nails used during construction have an incredible impact on the low mids.

So does your choice in spackle.

Discuss.

What I am hearing is nothing like that. He clearly forgot to position his BlackBody(TM) correctly and he should get some "brilliant pebbles"...

[Brendo]

you might like these:

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/120300pics.htm

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/070209pics.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~machrone/formic/formicaster.htm

[Cary Chilton]

And of course, everyone knows I am ONLY visiting this forum to hurt your feelings.


otek

Cool, the only reason I come here is to be your punching bag. What a dysfunctional relationship we share huh?

[otek]

You know, it's a little funny that you have to take everything on such a personal level. But that's kind of been happening all along.

I have been called out many times on these forums. Sometimes I was plain wrong about something and admitted it, sometimes somebody was just disagreeing with me. None of them actually posted to say I'm an asshole (except for your buddy "OtekTheDick" who came in for the sole purpose of attacking me after I argued one of your posts. Apparently he took it personally too.).

In this case, I am disagreeing with your observation that the only reason you might be hearing "muddy low mids" is because of the body wood (and according to a luthier buddy of mine, it's not what he'd expect from a basswood body with a maple cap).

I am also trying to rationalize your observations, because I do believe you ARE hearing something, though not necessarily what you might think.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

You know, it's a little funny that you have to take everything on such a personal level. But that's kind of been happening all along.

I have been called out many times on these forums. Sometimes I was plain wrong about something and admitted it, sometimes somebody was just disagreeing with me. None of them actually posted to say I'm an asshole (except for your buddy "OtekTheDick" who came in for the sole purpose of attacking me after I argued one of your posts. Apparently he took it personally too.).

In this case, I am disagreeing with your observation that the only reason you might be hearing "muddy low mids" is because of the body wood (and according to a luthier buddy of mine, it's not what he'd expect from a basswood body with a maple cap).

I am also trying to rationalize your observations, because I do believe you ARE hearing something, though not necessarily what you might think.


otek

Otek, that was a joke man! Geeeezzz Chill out! Otekthedick? WTF? LOL Seriously, that isn't my buddy so I have no clue what your talking about.
With all due respect to your luthier friend, my ears TELL me what I need to know -I gave up believing or following what luthiers or what the print says about what SHOULD be.... Again, I was right. I didn't know what that suhr guitar was, Brendo searched it out and voila! Whatever, works, I choose to listen to what works for me. There aren't any rules here. Ironically that is what you have been teaching me here about mixing, huh? This is precisely what I follow and know in my craft, but to be CLEAR I can do this so easily because I have so much experience and a gift for it, too. I hope with more and more experience mixing, my ears will tell things in a similar manner.

[Nevborn]

Hello!

I feel that I want to comment on all this about basswood and woods in general. I agree with Otek.

If you take a guitar. A guitar as described in this discussion. With an alder body and a maple top. This guitar sounds like something.

Now we´ll do something (kind of wierd): we remove the alder and stuffs basswood into its place instead. And then refinish the guitar with the EXACT same specs as it had.

Now: can one say what this v. 2.0 guitar will sound like? Nope. I´m sorry, but there is no way. Why? Well. Wood is a material that grows in the forest. Or in the hills. Maybe close to the tree line. Does it rain? Often? Has the tree seen a lot of harsh winters? When you take the tree down: do you saw it down? Blow it down with dynamite? (the classical way once use to crop those nice rosewoods in south america).

All this, and more, has an impact one what the wood will become. And another thing: trees are not homogeneous. No piece of wood (from the same tree) will have the same qualities as another piece from the same tree.

So. Let´s say alder in average yields a sound we describe as X
And basswood gives a Y sound. If we to the swap describe above we COULD end up with a MORE X sounding guitar since the alder removed might actually have more of the basswood sound and vice versa.

All that said: this is actually a very hypothetic discussion. A sound is always the sum of its parts. And in some instances the part that makes the difference might be something one does not even thing about. For example: Dan Erlewine and SRV;s guitar tech (not Diaz, I think his name was Rodrigez) tried to figure out why two of SRV;s strats sounded different. The ONLY thing they could pinpoint was that one (the better one) had a neck that was about 1/32-1/16" thicker... A bad conclusion for all those Ibanez RG people out there :Roll eyes:

Thanks for listening!

[Nevborn]

With all due respect to your luthier friend, my ears TELL me what I need to know -I gave up believing or following what luthiers or what the print says about what SHOULD be....

Isn´t this kind of ignorant? Sounds like a way not to deal with the complexity of everything...

[Cary Chilton]

Isn´t this kind of ignorant? Sounds like a way not to deal with the complexity of everything...

It's not meant to sound ignorant and or rude.
True, mahogany has its sound as do other woods. Body woods vs neck woods. Note compression, sustain, character and many other variables at work. Take too guitars, made by the same luthier, same spec pickups, same body and neck wood, same electronic parts, same hardware, and their character might sound similar but not alike. Moreover, one of the two guita'rs attack, the feel and sustain can be wildly different...

Too many variables actually, but I can still hear what I need to, nonetheless...
Those who don't believe I can hear what I hear, that is totally fine with me. More than welcome to say you don't believe it, I don't take this personally.... It is all good! Naysaying isn't going to prove anything me or sway me in the least. I am not going to agree the sky purple when it is so easily recognized as blue, right? If you can hear, you can hear it... if not then whatever, right? ;)

[Nevborn]

Hm. Seems like logic and reason doesn´t work here. But I´ll give it another shot.

Quote:
”True mahogany has its sound as do other woods.”

What is ”True mahogany”? There are a lot of mahoganys out there. Some related by the Linneaus system of botanics. Some not. Some woods are called mahogany but are in fact not. For a while Honduras Mahogany was thought of as being great. Today the term ”Honduras Mahogany” is used as a mark of quality (and has nothing to do with Honduras). Not as in wood for musical instruments making, but as a general quality mark. Define this before you make any statement about how it sounds. And, refering to my earlier post: the wood differs in the same log. To scuff the surface: Khaya ivorensis, Khaya ivorensis, Khaya nyasica, Swietenia macrophylla, Swietenia mahogani, Swietenia candollei, Khaya grandifoliola, Khaya senegalensis are all part of the mahogany family Meliaceae. And now I´m only talking about, scientifically speaking, true mahoganies. So? Which one are you refering to? I can also add that these has a weight of 540–640 kg/m3. (as a comparison: alder average about 530 and european maple around 650.) To add to the confusion: ash and swampash belongs to the same family. Would you state that whose sound the same?

2). To give a wood a specific sound attribute is wrong. But I can give you some cred for your point about eartraining. But I don´t think we define it the same way. Let´s talk vintage strats. Alder or ash body. When one has tried (and when I say ”try” I mean a few hours of playing) a few hundred strats, one MIGHT be able to say something about the effect of alder v/s ash AS IT APPLIES TO A VINTAGE STRAT and the effect as a median value.


”Body woods vs neck woods.”

What? Are you saying that there are some woods for neck making and some for body making? Then what category does mahogany fall into? Maple? Parker uses basswood for the neck in the Fly Deluxe. Didn´t Parker do his homework? And there are a few Fenders and PRS´s out there with rosewood necks...


”Note compression, sustain, character and many other variables at work. Take too guitars, made by the same luthier, same spec pickups, same body and neck wood, same electronic parts, same hardware, and their character might sound similar but not alike. Moreover, one of the two guita'rs attack, the feel and sustain can be wildly different...”

That´s my point exactly.

”Too many variables actually, but I can still hear what I need to, nonetheless...
Those who don't believe I can hear what I hear, that is totally fine with me. More than welcome to say you don't believe it,”

Well, this is the problem, isn´t it? Believing is stating something to be true without evidence or maybe stating it even if there are loads of evidence against it. Academically or scientifically this kind of argumentation would get you nowhere (exept in theology that is). I´m sorry to say that it might be so in webb based forums though.

”Naysaying isn't going to prove anything me or sway me in the least.”

This IS ignorance... based on belief in a belief...


”I am not going to agree the sky purple when it is so easily recognized as blue, right?”

Of course not. But it might be a good idea to at least listen to an expert when he says that it might have to do with a brain tumour or any other serious disorder. Disregarding him or her due to a belief might be bad for you.

”If you can hear, you can hear it... if not then whatever, right?”

No. That´s not remoteley close to right. You are indicating that you are better than me. Which might be the case. Or it might not. MY point is that I don´t jump to conclusions and I tend to listen to peoples input to build myself a picture. A picture that is always evolving as it gets more and more input.

Happy holidays folks!

[Cary Chilton]

Ok, I must confess you have convinced me? I can't hear as I thought I could have, what was I thinking? I was believing in a belief that I could hear? I need a new belief system regarding the beliefs of what I can and can't hear? :lol:
btw it was : True, mahogany ... not true mahogany... geeeezzzzzzzzzzz, why is this soooo personal to you?
Again, whoever this is, science works up to a point, and then all the other factors are extremely hard to define............ as you agreed was your point. Still, even in a youtube video, regardless of how it was recorded, high output pickup, highly saturated amp I could still easily hear BASSWOOD....seems we're going around in circles here.... :lol:

[otek]

First, a warm welcome to Nevborn, a fine luthier and a personal friend.

I need a new belief system regarding the beliefs of what I can and can't hear? :lol:

Why not? Let me make it clear that I asked Nev about this discussion for a second opinion, since I find it healthy to question my own so called convictions every now and then. Might be something to consider, Cary.

why is this soooo personal to you?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. WHO is really believing this is personal? Like you said yourself...

well you can say what you like, doesn't hurt my feelings.

If arguing logic of reasoning or offering alternative explanations to something which you yourself admit is a complex issue, is to be considered an attempt to "hurt your feelings", then please explain to me how I should be discussing this?

Should I just take what you said at face value and be done with it? Even though it is really YOU "calling the sky purple" in this case?

Note that I have conceded (twice) that you ARE hearing something. Though not necessarily what you believe, or at the very least not ONLY what you believe.

Still, even in a youtube video, regardless of how it was recorded, high output pickup, highly saturated amp I could still easily hear BASSWOOD....seems we're going around in circles here.... :lol:

Yes we are because you are refusing to even CONSIDER the possibility that there may be more to it, and you are certainly refusing to discuss it in a rational manner.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

First, a warm welcome to Nevborn, a fine luthier and a personal friend.



Why not? Let me make it clear that I asked Nev about this discussion for a second opinion, since I find it healthy to question my own so called convictions every now and then. Might be something to consider, Cary.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. WHO is really believing this is personal? Like you said yourself...



If arguing logic of reasoning or offering alternative explanations to something which you yourself admit is a complex issue, is to be considered an attempt to "hurt your feelings", then please explain to me how I should be discussing this?

Should I just take what you said at face value and be done with it? Even though it is really YOU "calling the sky purple" in this case?

Note that I have conceded (twice) that you ARE hearing something. Though not necessarily what you believe, or at the very least not ONLY what you believe.



Yes we are because you are refusing to even CONSIDER the possibility that there may be more to it, and you are certainly refusing to discuss it in a rational manner.


otek

Dude, chill..... I had a hunch that was your friend... too coincidental. I guess you are taking this personally... that is not my intention with this discussion.

Frankly, what I can hear isn't up for debate, period. Also, reading your last post, it is clear to me you haven't read my posts well... which will only add to the confusion, on your part to understand how I can hear basswood. That is it, dude. It has only ever been one point, that I can hear the character of basswood in the youtube vid, EASILY. Don't make things more complex than they need to be, or try to get psychological about it.... It is just that, and you don't like it....

Again, sorry if that pisses you off, I am truly sorry. That was never my intention, to make you angry.

[Pimp-X]

Frankly, what I can hear isn't up for debate, period.

No shit. I think it's been made perfectly clear in recent history what you can and cannot hear.

I think a much more salient point at this stage is what you can make up and what you can't.

I think you're claiming some kind of high ground based on utter horseshit and I'll call that kind of garbage 100% of the time. Pull your head in - I think it's obvious you constantly write cheques that your ass can't cash.

[Cary Chilton]

No shit. I think it's been made perfectly clear in recent history what you can and cannot hear.

I think a much more salient point at this stage is what you can make up and what you can't.

I think you're claiming some kind of high ground based on utter horseshit and I'll call that kind of garbage 100% of the time. Pull your head in - I think it's obvious you constantly write cheques that your ass can't cash.

says, you...... who cares

[otek]

Dude, chill..... I had a hunch that was your friend... too coincidental.

So what? You think it's all a big conspiracy to get you, don't you? :lol:

Let's be clear about something here: I didn't ASK Nevborn to post in here. He posted on his own accord. He's been lurking on this forum for a while. I guess he found the logical fallacy of your reasoning worthy of pointing out, as did I.

I guess you are taking this personally... that is not my intention with this discussion.

You seem to be stuck on that, yet YOU are the only one who has suggested this discussion is an effort to "hurt your feelings".

Frankly, what I can hear isn't up for debate, period.

No, you have made that abundantly clear. Apparently, your arguments aren't strong enough to stand up to a discussion.

That was never my intention, to make you angry.

I am not angry.


otek

[Pimp-X]

says, you...... who cares

Obviously I. Many people come here for quality information, not fictional accounts of superhuman behaviour from your bizarre parallel universe.

As I said, pull your head in.

[archtop]

This shit is startin' to get good.

dooooood, people have been known hear a treble increase when turning the treble knob on the WRONG channel.

You can trick yourself in to hearing all kinds of things.

to stamp you feet and proclaim I CAN HEAR IT I CAN HEAR IT

while disregarding the science that you might be fooling yourself is really silly.

Dude it very akin to you measuring your dick proclaiming it's 15 inches,
when you are actually reading the millimeter side of the ruler.

but them stamping you feet insisting it's 15 inches.


yes you did see 15, but in this game you need to question everything.


Otherwise you will look like a total douche with a 15 millimeter penis.

[otek]

Otherwise you will look like a total douche with a 15 millimeter penis.

QED


otek

[Cary Chilton]

You guys are a hoot... :lol: Whatever, y'all say... I know what I hear and if I couldn't hear it I wouldn't say it.
I am not sayin' Otek or his luthier friend's reasoning is wrong, not at all.
I can hear the sound of mahogany, alder, and basswood electric guitars, quite well, as all who know me would vouch for me, but I am not also going to bring friends in to confirm anything....

It is nothing about being superhuman Pimpboy, just about knowing what you hear... believe what you want, ok ? If I told you I drew the Bruce Lee picture from a tiny 2cm x 3cm print to larger than A3, scale without a projector, within a couple hours, would you call Bullshit again? Probably....but I don't care. ;)

What is wrong with a 15mm long penis? Work with what you got Archie, bang the hell outta the sides! ;) Give'em hell :D

[Nevborn]

thanks otek! And I feel right at home! =)

Let´s dive.

Cary Chilton wrote (11:44AM) [CC:]:

”Ok, I must confess you have convinced me?”

– Please do, that would be nice ;-) But actually no. That is not needed. You see - a debate, as we could describe this, isn´t so much about getting ones opponent to agree with you. Usually this is not possible. Let´s face it: I´m a rationalist and you are a believer. There ain´t much of a common ground for us to work on. But one has to at least try. That said: the primary goal in a debate is not to win over the opponent. Its to influence the audience. Or as otek put it:

”As long as you are ok with me calling bullshit when I see it,/…/”

The reason being to sharpen the information flooding the web.

CC:
”I can't hear as I thought I could have, what was I thinking? I was believing in a belief that I could hear?”

– Exactly. It might sound wierd when put like that, but nevertheless true. Since there is no way you COULD hear that, it must be a non-rational belief based on nothing more than the belief itself. I might be getting a bit philosophical here...

CC:
”I need a new belief system regarding the beliefs of what I can and can't hear?”

– No. A simple scientifical experiment would put you on the right track where no non-rational belief is nessessary. How its done? Well: take a friend with you to the nearest guitar store and let him play every guitar in the shop with you blindfolded. This would be a lot easier than to name the wood in a youtube clip right? For this to be scientifical though you need an unbiased witness (or several actually).

CC:
”btw it was : True, mahogany ... not true mahogany...”

– Really? Ok. My fault. But I can´t avoid wondering if you edited this. Your post is edited 11:44. The same time as your reply. I copied and pasted your text and I don´t think the comma just vanished during that process. In any case it does not matter. My remark is still valid. As are the questions. Which you have not answered. I can understand this: You can´t answer them, right? Whichever way you do answer them you have to prove yourself wrong, right?

CC:
”geeeezzzzzzzzzzz, why is this soooo personal to you?”

– Its not. I think ”projection” is the term here. But there is a professional reason, which is more or less the same as the thing stated in the beginning. It´s kind of frustrating to debunk misconceptions and misinformation on a one to one basis. And there is A LOT of this out there. To debunk it in a bigger venue (like this) is more work effective.

CC:
”Again, whoever this is”

– What?

CC:
”science works up to a point,”

– Yeah! This is true! And what have you read that deals with this? Popper? Wittgenstein? Habermas?
But I have to inform you that it doesn´t really apply here. And this is a two-headed monster. Simplyfied it goes something like this: One is the postmodern idea that says that you can´t know anything for sure. Popper comes to mind. He says that no theory can be proved right – only wrong. That said: quantum physics can´t be proved right, but it have given us computers (among other things). Now: computers is real right? So can we conclude that there seems to be some solidity to quantum physics? Good! Let´s move on the the second head: There is a strain of though that claims that you can´t study details and then make generalizations about the holistic. And vice versa. And there is a point which science can´t go beyond. This is not to be thought of in metaphysical terms. It might only have to to with the fact that a shift in paradigm is needed (like a new Einstein for instance). And there might also be a point where we actually don´t have the intelligence to go further. But no worries though! We are not there yet.
Especially in the field that we are discussing. You see: science has not looked at this. Why? Well: nobody outside forums like this cares. But it would not be hard to do. Labour intensive yes, but scientifically simple.

CC:
”and then all the other factors are extremely hard to define............ as you agreed was your point”

– Actually I didn´t. I said that there are a lot of factors that work together, not that the individual factors are hard to define. Its the interaction of factors that is tricky.

CC:
”Still, even in a youtube video, regardless of how it was recorded, high output pickup, highly saturated amp I could still easily hear BASSWOOD....”

– I won´t comment on this since that is not my field of expertise. Not to say that I´m a moron when it comes to those subjects, but I feel that there are people better suited to debunk them.

CC:
”seems we're going around in circles here....”

– Hm. Not ”we”. And not I. I have layed forward facts, questions and argumentations to propel the discussion. But you have resorted to the same argument: ”I hear what I hear”.

CC to otek (05:36PM)[CC”:]:
”Frankly, what I can hear isn't up for debate, period.”

– Yes it is. Debating is what we´ve been doing all day long. =)

CC2:
”Also, reading your last post, it is clear to me you haven't read my posts well... which will only add to the confusion, on your part to understand how I can hear basswood.”

– Well, as I figure, you have not put forward ANY hard fact explaining how you can do this...

CC2:
”Don't make things more complex than they need to be, or try to get psychological about it....”

– This argument works the other way around too. To give up when and if something is getting complex and throw out rational though is no way to get anywhere.

[Cary Chilton]

Dear Oteks friend,

Thanks for writing... Clearly you love debating and feel you are good at it. However, I don't give a crap to debate the aforementioned, stated numerous times.... It getting interesting to you at this point , but very boring to me. If it were VERY interesting to me, I'd debate tooth and nail, believe me but it isn't... Prove something scientific about the character of a type of wood you know well.... that would seem interesting, but so far you haven't said much at all, other than to try to wax intellectual for your amusement... However, the only amusing thing to me here, is that you and a few others can't believe me -as if I must be lying.....

Sincerely,

The Man With SuperHuman Ears

[otek]

Dear Oteks friend

Feel free to address him by his screen name. I have so many friends around here, it gets confusing.

as if I must be lying.....

Actually, I don't think you are lying. Lying denotes knowledge of the true facts. You, on the other hand, are simply delusional.


otek

[Pimp-X]

Actually, I don't think you are lying. Lying denotes knowledge of the true facts. You, on the other hand, are simply delusional.


And unfortunately effusive.

[Brendo]

Hey cary, your posts read like you're typing on a black keyboard. Is it a black keyboard? How dare you say it's a white keyboard. I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE IN BLACK KEYBOARDS

[Cary Chilton]

Feel free to address him by his screen name. I have so many friends around here, it gets confusing.



Actually, I don't think you are lying. Lying denotes knowledge of the true facts. You, on the other hand, are simply delusional.


otek

yep, delusional to think you'd stop being a priss about all this...

[Zoesch]

Dear Oteks friend,

Thanks for writing... Clearly you love debating and feel you are good at it. However, I don't give a crap to debate the aforementioned, stated numerous times.... It getting interesting to you at this point , but very boring to me. If it were VERY interesting to me, I'd debate tooth and nail, believe me but it isn't... Prove something scientific about the character of a type of wood you know well.... that would seem interesting, but so far you haven't said much at all, other than to try to wax intellectual for your amusement... However, the only amusing thing to me here, is that you and a few others can't believe me -as if I must be lying.....

Sincerely,

The Man With SuperHuman Ears

He actually makes incredibly good guitars... you make me want to puke every time you post... guess who we are gonna believe oh you who can't hear.

[Brendo]

http://www.nevbornguitars.com/

[Goes211]

Cary, Cary, Cary...
A clear-cut case of Eppstein-Winer syndrome if I ever saw one.

[Cary Chilton]

Cary, Cary, Cary...
A clear-cut case of Eppstein-Winer syndrome if I ever saw one.
seriously not fuckin' trying to do that.... just find that I am right at guessing basswood guitars much more than being wrong.

checked out nevborn's stuff, very interesting instruments.

Brendo, your a twat for leaving negative rep points, and you'd squeal like pig if I returned the favor...

[blackieC]

.

[Pimp-X]

guessing basswood

Fantastic, now we've got that sorted out! The claim to talent has been replaced by guesswork - which means at least you have a chance of being right at least some of the time... :lol:

The bullshit-o-meter is easing back now thankfully. Recently I've been having to replace a lot of bent FSD limit stops.

[onze_jef]

Dear Cary Chilton,

can you do this with other bodywoods as well?

[Brendo]

the other possibility here is that you read ages ago that most suhr guitars are basswood and the fact stuck with you subconsciously.

[otek]

Nevborn did offer, among other salient points, a perfect way to test this whole thing: have a couple of friends join you in a music store, wear a blindfold and have one of the guys play through a number of different guitars, and see if you could pinpoint the body wood selection with any degree of accuracy.

The way I suspect this would work for me is by a kind of reverse engineering - If I heard a Strat, for example (which I think I could pick out under most circumstances, though of course it could be an ESP Strat, or some other clone), I would KNOW the Strat would normally be either Alder or Ash, so I'd have a 50% chance of getting it right. If I heard what I believed to be a Les Paul, I would have guessed Mahogany, because again, I KNOW the sound of Mahogany as represented in a Les Paul.

And here's the problem with that: I might remove the blindfold and see my "test guitarist" there, thumbing his nose at me with a SWAMP ASH Les Paul Studio across his lap.

My point here is, the guitar's sound might be unmistakeably Les Paul (which in most cases is not even a 100% Mahogany body but one capped with Maple), but as a general rule, the whole sonic footprint of the design is comprised of so much more than body wood. It would be easy for me to imagine that Mahogany was "the sound of a Les Paul", when in fact, it is the sum of the parts that gives it that signature sound.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

Nevborn did offer, among other salient points, a perfect way to test this whole thing: have a couple of friends join you in a music store, wear a blindfold and have one of the guys play through a number of different guitars, and see if you could pinpoint the body wood selection with any degree of accuracy.

The way I suspect this would work for me is by a kind of reverse engineering - If I heard a Strat, for example (which I think I could pick out under most circumstances, though of course it could be an ESP Strat, or some other clone), I would KNOW the Strat would normally be either Alder or Ash, so I'd have a 50% chance of getting it right. If I heard what I believed to be a Les Paul, I would have guessed Mahogany, because again, I KNOW the sound of Mahogany as represented in a Les Paul.

And here's the problem with that: I might remove the blindfold and see my "test guitarist" there, thumbing his nose at me with a SWAMP ASH Les Paul Studio across his lap.

My point here is, the guitar's sound might be unmistakeably Les Paul (which in most cases is not even a 100% Mahogany body but one capped with Maple), but as a general rule, the whole sonic footprint of the design is comprised of so much more than body wood. It would be easy for me to imagine that Mahogany was "the sound of a Les Paul", when in fact, it is the sum of the parts that gives it that signature sound.


otek

Nevborn's blindfold test is a great way verify my findings, no denying that. I have never done a blindfold test as Nevborn mentioned.
20 years ago, I kept hearing a similar sound of many Ibanez and musicman guitars ( either in the store or at a jam or a friends)...
The sound had a similar character, despite some having crazy high output passive pickups or just a PAF clone.... or a maple or a rosewood neck. The Axis have maple caps. Anyway it seemed all the cool rock guitars back then, in my city were Ibanez and later, the Axis musicmans.
When I always inquired about pickups and the woods. It didn't take long to realize that there were something between that sound of those guitar and the bodywood. I came to the conclusion that bodywood was the most important factor in the character of the sound I was hearing because it was the only variable that was consistent. Some of these guitars had maple caps, some didn't. Some had low output pickups, some high output...some had Alnico 2's and some had Alnico 8's or Ceramic's. Some guitars had quarter sawn one piece maple necks whereas some were with rosewood or ebony fretboards. Some had the fender style trems, brass or otherwise.. some were fixed, some had knock off Floyd's or other Ibanez trem inventions... the Axis' had the Gotoh locking trems...and some locking tremelos were floating and some weren't.
Again, the only thing I could see that was consistent was the main bodywood, and despite the guitar being a little brighter, or less honky, or a little tighter, it still had that character to it that strats or Les Pauls never had.

So I chalked it up to basswood. Not exactly scientific, but not by luck either. If your passionate about things, you inquire more and more and remember stuff or least try to...

I am sure Nevborn with his skills could fool me with a custom creation of some sort. Maybe a Mahogany long tenon neck thru type, EMG 81's, thicker maple cap, A thick slab of Mahogany -tone block - inside the guitar under the bridge or thin finish etc... I would never guess basswood.

Otek could probably find a room and a combo of mics and compressors and maybe even a surprise overdrive and or distortion pedal in the mix, and I would never guess basswood. I would never bet a large sum of money on me guessing correctly with 100% accuracy, that the bodywood of a guitar is predominantly basswood....but I am ok with that.

[otek]

Otek could probably find a room and a combo of mics and compressors and maybe even a surprise overdrive and or distortion pedal in the mix, and I would never guess basswood. I would never bet a large sum of money on me guessing correctly with 100% accuracy, that the bodywood of a guitar is predominantly basswood....but I am ok with that.

I think you are seeing my point now about the previous Youtube video example - meaning, if I could create circumstances, by design, that would obfuscate the presence of Basswood in the guitar, then this guy could surely do it by accident.

It's obviously hard to discuss a subtle (or not so subtle) tonal quality and describe it in words, and I am still not convinced that the Basswood is the solution to this riddle, but at least your reasoning in this last post makes sense to me.

Maybe Nevborn has some ideas on this.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

I think you are seeing my point now about the previous Youtube video example

otek

Otek, of course I didn't just suddenly realize this and decided to type it. In turn, I hope you understand, and don't underestimate me by thinking I am oversimplifying everything - just because you indeed saw proof of this -regarding mixing-when I came here to the womb asking mix by numbers type questions coupled with no confidence about mixing. I am afraid that picture isn't quite me, rather a snapshot at a vulnerable time: my mixing balls were dropping... gimme a break :D I appreciate all the advice you have given me Otek, you should know that, if not, I saying again, now. ;)

[David Aurora]

For what it's worth, I haven't owned a distortion pedal in about 10 years, but the clips I've heard of this thing (as dodgy as most of them are) just made me pick up the phone and order one (well, I was originally intending just to buy a Strobostomp 2, but I didn't want it getting lonely on it's journey.... :lol:)

I hate distortion pedals. But this thing doesn't sound like a distortion pedal. That's pretty fucking awesome. I got some band gigs coming up now that my new record is out and I prefer playing through my Fender, but was considering also dragging along my Genz Benz for the higher gain shit. Now I won't need to. Will it replace my second amp for recording? I doubt it. But will it save my back from lugging another amp to gigs and save me wiring up some elaborate switching system? Definitely.

[Cary Chilton]

For what it's worth, I haven't owned a distortion pedal in about 10 years, but the clips I've heard of this thing (as dodgy as most of them are) just made me pick up the phone and order one (well, I was originally intending just to buy a Strobostomp 2, but I didn't want it getting lonely on it's journey.... :lol:)

I hate distortion pedals. But this thing doesn't sound like a distortion pedal. That's pretty fucking awesome. I got some band gigs coming up now that my new record is out and I prefer playing through my Fender, but was considering also dragging along my Genz Benz for the higher gain shit. Now I won't need to. Will it replace my second amp for recording? I doubt it. But will it save my back from lugging another amp to gigs and save me wiring up some elaborate switching system? Definitely.

Dave, you getting into writing music hardcore! Right on bro ;)

[David Aurora]

pedal arrived today, i fucking LOVE this thing now that ive had a chance to fiddle with it. it really sounds like adding a good quality channel to an amp, not a fuzz box slapped in front of one.

in saying that, minus 10000000000000 points for the fucking blue LED in it. why are people still putting blue goddamn LEDs in everything??!!! AARGH!!!

[otek]

in saying that, minus 10000000000000 points for the fucking blue LED in it. why are people still putting blue goddamn LEDs in everything??!!! AARGH!!!

I know. The blue LED is surely what caused the low mid muddiness in the Youtube video.

I would have loved to hear the pedal with a red LED instead.


otek

[David Aurora]

I know. The blue LED is surely what caused the low mid muddiness in the Youtube video.

I would have loved to hear the pedal with a red LED instead.


otek

:lol::lol::lol:

(we should probably ignore the blues puns by the way, right? :D)

seriously though, the LED is gonna have to get swapped out at some point on mine. i swear, nothing is more blinding in dark places like stages and studios than a fucking blue LED. pretty much every bit of gear i have with one is covered in gaff to block it out. i guess its just the cool thing to do these days, but as cool as it looks in a store everyone seems to get the shits with them when theyre getting blinded by them in real use

[otek]

seriously though, the LED is gonna have to get swapped out at some point on mine.

Maybe there are Gels available so you won't have to solder anything. :D


otek

[Fulcrum]

in saying that, minus 10000000000000 points for the fucking blue LED in it. why are people still putting blue goddamn LEDs in everything??!!! AARGH!!!

It's not for YOU. It's for the LADIES.

"Oo! A cool blue blinky light! That's sex-ehh.."

[David Aurora]

Maybe there are Gels available so you won't have to solder anything. :D

otek

ill look into it :D



It's not for YOU. It's for the LADIES.

"Oo! A cool blue blinky light! That's sex-ehh.."

hahaha. yep, i cant count the amount of times a light emitting diode has gotten me laid.....


.... no seriously, i cant count it :Sad:

:lol:

[zoff]

pedal arrived today, i fucking LOVE this thing now that ive had a chance to fiddle with it. it really sounds like adding a good quality channel to an amp, not a fuzz box slapped in front of one.
Sorry, which pedal are you talking about? I've looked through this thread, but I just see a lot of stuff about Basswood and penis size.


in saying that, minus 10000000000000 points for the fucking blue LED in it. why are people still putting blue goddamn LEDs in everything??!!! AARGH!!! Yeah I'm surrounded by taped up blue LEDs too, WTF.

[David Aurora]

Sorry, which pedal are you talking about? I've looked through this thread, but I just see a lot of stuff about Basswood and penis size.

Yeah I'm surrounded by taped up blue LEDs too, WTF.

:lol::lol::lol:

[David Aurora]

interesting...

i was telling a mate about the pedal and he was keen to get one based on what he'd heard about them, so i told him i would bring mine to his jam space tonight so he could have a play. and it sounded like horseshit :lol::lol:

his setup is pretty much the opposite of mine (i run passive pickups into a fender, he's running 81's into a jcm900) so hearing a difference isnt a surprise. but it outright sucked on his rig. fizzy, weak crap. granted, thats how id usually describe emg's anyway haha, but he's always made it work. but the best we could manage out of the riot was mediocre. i dunno whether it was the pickups or the amp it didnt gel with, but whatever it was, it sounded shit.

oh well, works great on my rig thankfully!

[Cary Chilton]

interesting...

i was telling a mate about the pedal and he was keen to get one based on what he'd heard about them, so i told him i would bring mine to his jam space tonight so he could have a play. and it sounded like horseshit :lol::lol:

his setup is pretty much the opposite of mine (i run passive pickups into a fender, he's running 81's into a jcm900) so hearing a difference isnt a surprise. but it outright sucked on his rig. fizzy, weak crap. granted, thats how id usually describe emg's anyway haha, but he's always made it work. but the best we could manage out of the riot was mediocre. i dunno whether it was the pickups or the amp it didnt gel with, but whatever it was, it sounded shit.

oh well, works great on my rig thankfully!

Yeah MANY fucking supposed killer pedals are like this... Most are made to KILL on a Fender amp and that it is about all they are good for, imho... However, the RIOT should work with a Marshall WELL. I'll ask Peter Thorn how he making it sound so great on his amps, some are somewhat take offs of a JMP or JCM800. Granted the JCM900 stock sounds like cock and balls...
If I were to guess Pete's suggestion, it would probably go like this: Set the Drive to 3 or less, presence 5, mid 4, bass 1-3, treble 6, set the Riot to the middle position or to the right.

[otek]

81's into a jcm900... i dunno whether it was the pickups or the amp it didnt gel with...

The input stage of the amp pretty much determines how it deals with pedals.

I have heard my custom booster (which has a S/N ratio of >120 dB and in and of itself sounds big and totally clean) make some amps absolutely fall apart, while others just beg for more.

My guess is the JCM 900, which tends to sound pretty pinched and harsh anyway, didn't respond well to the Suhr's output.

EMG pickups, while not suitable for everything, can actually sound huge under the right circumstances.


otek

[David Aurora]

all i can say is that im glad i bought my riot to go with my fender :lol::lol:

my friends 900 is a strange beast. im actually not too sure how much of it actually is a 900 haha, i think it was somewhat of a junkyard amp made by our local tech. cool amp for a middy crunch kind of thing. really hard sound i guess, as opposed to the smoothness of my fender. which is not a bad thing, just different. but yeah, it certainly didnt take too kindly to the riot. where the fender seems to harden up and crunch nicely, the marshall seems to just overflow and choke. we tried all kinds of settings between the pedal and amp, but it just never got any better than OK.

im gonna plug the pedal into my genz benz el diablo in the next few days and see how it fares there.

[Cary Chilton]

Cool metal pedal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XscZPYKzXIQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mOqO4z0iH4&feature=player_embedded#

THe Menatone none more black has less lows, tighter sounding and slightly more attack.

Toneczar Openhaus quite pricy, slightly more mid scooped, complex mids Muffish in that respect, but the highs on the clips are a bit brittle!

Fuck when does it end?:D

[MKZ]

here's my review of the killer high gain practice amp under 50USD know as the micro crush

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2viZ7th1z0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2viZ7th1z0

[Cary Chilton]

here's my review of the killer high gain practice amp under 50USD know as the micro crush




Nice! I like the "Lost" Homage! hehe

Nice work! I should pick one up@

[David Aurora]

...im gonna plug the pedal into my genz benz el diablo in the next few days and see how it fares there.

whoops, forgot about this. used this setup in a session today doubling up some rhythm guitars tracked this weekend on the guitarists own rig. we actually chose the suhr in the genz clean channel over the genz drive for the rhythm guitar stuff, and i actually really dig the genz drive so thats pretty cool. when we listened to the first playback the guitarist mentioned how shithouse his tracks done on his tsl sounded. i wasnt surprised that the tsl sucked haha, but he sure was