Studios with no Control Room

[malice]

This is an extension of the excelent, but somehow distracted by Slipperman hilarious intervention subject of Grapestomper in the Radio Show where Mixerman stated that if he was fool enough to do a recording studio of his own, he would do a "one room" studio with the recording gear in the same room as the musicians.

I'm a big fan of Daniel Lanois myself, so when I will chime about this, you won't be surprised that I actually find a lot of qualities in the method.

When I use a traditional studio, you wouldn't believe a little I use the Talk Back, I rather take the time to run to the Recording room and have a chat with the guys instead of staying my buts in the chair and start a conversation with thru the cans.

I will develop later, but I would love to hear about what you guys think about the method.

discuss

malice

[lebouche]

I'd love to hear what you guys think about this...
I went to see a new place today that would be much bigger than the one I have but it was so much more expensive, the local taxes came to almost as much as my rent.
So I've decided to stay and knock down my booth, soundproofing the whole room. I was considering putting a glass partition for the control room but if I people think I dont need to great.
The one big problem is surely you can't monitor through speakers.
:Confused:

When I use a traditional studio, you wouldn't believe a little I use the Talk Back, I rather take the time to run to the Recording room and have a chat with the guys instead of staying my buts in the chair and start a conversation with thru the cans.


2nd that...its much easier to get your point across or reassure people in person..

[dikledoux]

The main drawback to not having a separate control room is that you can't monitor while you deal with mic placement and instrument/amp tuning/placement etc. So you make adjustments, then listen, rinse, repeat.

But you can gather a lot of information from the headphones while you make adjustments and that'll make the process a bit quicker. My room is so small that I can literally reach over and touch the kick drum from my monitoring position. When I clear my throat, I hear the drums ringing. :icon_eek: I have to empty the room of some gear and instruments before I start mixing to avoid the effects on the sound of having a set of cymbals bouncing things around.

But you'll want to get a set of these:
Westone Musician's Earplugs (http://www.westone.com/music/elite.html#es49)

So that your ears will still be useful when it comes time to check what's going on in the monitors. The Westone's will allow you to better hear what's going on in the room while still keeping your ears happy when things are loud.

I don't like to track here because it's not the best environment. But sometimes it's the best available option and I've worked with bands that just couldn't get a decent recording in "real" studios who came here and kicked ass because the vibe is casual and the room isn't horrible if you know how to minimize the problems.

dik

[lebouche]

So you monitor with cans then record a little n listen back..
Cheers,
:)

[Bob Olhsson]

Mixerman's absolutely right, there is nothing worse than a studio or a control room that's too small or not well enough isolated.

[con mucho gusto]

A while back, I was pondering separating my space..I've always been the most comfortable in one room environments and I hate talkbacks from both engineering and playing perspectives. But there are obvious benefits to a separate CR.

It all became super clear when i went and saw Mitchell Froom's room. One big room w/ a drum booth. He's got a machine room on the other side w/ a hallway and a bathroom that can be used for amps if need be...when they mix they just move the gobos in tight.

Since then, I built myself a nice little booth w/ a little hallway vestibule thingy and I'm a much happier man. I just throw amps in the garage or office and we're good to go. people don't have to get off there fat asses to hear playback.

[otek]

Several good reasons for the one-room studio have been put forth here.

The idea of having a combined studio and control room, with a drum booth and iso booths around it, sounds kind of interesting. But I wonder if that's just not the same thing as making the control room larger?

Granted, in a single room you can sit down right there with the musicians, which may work great especially for a quieter setting.

The best studio I've worked in in this regard was one where the control room was around one third of the entire floor area, and the "wall" between it and the studio, floor to ceiling glass.

[lebouche]

I been thinking bout doing the big sheet of glass...would it be best to angle it sound wise??
Cheers,

[jdier]

Somewhere on his site Eric Ambel talks about Cowboy Technical and their no control room set up. I really dig his work with the Del Lords and especially the Bottle Rockets.

Some interesting reading here:

http://www.ericambel.com/CTS-Home.htm

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_eric_roscoe_ambels/

[Brendo]

Woodstock here in Victoria is a one room setup, with booths...

[Grapestomper]

Here's the part of the question that got lost in all the shouting:

"How would you work to minimise the dis-advantages of this situation?"


Most of Mixerman's points about the advantages of this arrangement don't even apply to my situation... I'm usually recording myself, so comunication isn't an issue. (Or if it is, I need a shrink!).

There is no option of dividing this space, and if I did, I would merely create two rooms, each of which was too small to do anything with.


So: given that I have to work like this, what are some strategies for getting decent sounds in a relatively short time?

Do you try to rely on your cans? Do you try to use flat mics and capture an acurate picture of the room tones? Is it necessarily just trial-and-error?



Thanks for taking up the question.

Mike

[Mixerman]

Here's the part of the question that got lost in all the shouting:

"How would you work to minimise the dis-advantages of this situation?"


Most of Mixerman's points about the advantages of this arrangement don't even apply to my situation... I'm usually recording myself, so comunication isn't an issue. (Or if it is, I need a shrink!).

There is no option of dividing this space, and if I did, I would merely create two rooms, each of which was too small to do anything with.


So: given that I have to work like this, what are some strategies for getting decent sounds in a relatively short time?

Do you try to rely on your cans? Do you try to use flat mics and capture an acurate picture of the room tones? Is it necessarily just trial-and-error?



Thanks for taking up the question.

Mike

You've already named one of the major advantages. You don't have to divide a room which is the proper size for both a control room and a room into two that are not the proper size for either.

Tell us some other advantages you have discovered working this way.

Mixerman

[malice]

Do you try to rely on your cans?

Nope, I just don't do that. You have to rely more on your experience in mic positioning, and judge during the playback of the track, then make some corrections and try again.

You gotta understand that this might appear like time consuming, but ultimately, you will catch up by a better and quicker comunication with the band.

I made great recordings like this.

btw, if you are bulding such working space, you could totally imagine having a small booth or two to put amps or record vocals.

I really liked working like this.

malice

[nobby]

Well, this may be a dumb question, but...

What would be wrong with having a too small control room, and putting a pair of monitors in the larger tracking room for critical playback monitoring, assuming the tracking room has superior acoustics and you can select between sets of monitors? Sure, you'd have to get off your ass to monitor once you've gotten in the ballpark, and go back to the control room to tweak, but we're not talking about an ideal, big budget situation.

The control room could also double as a iso booth.

[otek]

What would be wrong with having a too small control room....

You would expire from CO2 poisoning during mix.

:lol:

[Brendo]

idea #1 for getting sounds in one room: big long delay, 100% wet. think like 10 seconds. play until you start hearing the repeat, stop, listen for 10 seconds.

[malice]

Well, this may be a dumb question, but...

What would be wrong with having a too small control room, and putting a pair of monitors in the larger tracking room for critical playback monitoring, assuming the tracking room has superior acoustics and you can select between sets of monitors? Sure, you'd have to get off your ass to monitor once you've gotten in the ballpark, and go back to the control room to tweak, but we're not talking about an ideal, big budget situation.

The control room could also double as a iso booth.

Well,

It is indeed very difficult to have the bass level right in small control room. Standing waves problem will more likely make your monitoring system unusable below 80 Hz sometimes.
Bass trap won't help much, there is a limit to workarounds.

Another thing to have in mind, is that almost every small rooms have peak and nulls in a lot more freq than the room mode.

Even higher freqs might be affected, have in mind that the closer the room is, the more reflections you will have as the walls are closer to each other.

So basically, it will affect a lot of aspect of your mix.

Now let's say you solved most of the problems about your room acoustics and that you need to check your mixes in the room to hear the bass: I still find frustrating not to hear what is occuring lower than 80Hz. It's gonna be very difficult to have your bd and bass sitting right in your mix and you will have to move your ass a lot to fine tune this.

Ok, let's say it is doable.

But frankly : what are you doing most in your studio :

recording drums,


or mixing, arraging, recording vocal, gtr amps, bass, Bvs, keyboards etc ...

Why would you design a tiny working place where you gonna spend most of your time to have a big recording room that you will need 10% of your time or less ?

I really would prefer to record drums in my CR and have booth to record most of the casual tracking where I need isolation.

malice

[Cheech]

I guess I qualify to post here, becausae I work in a one room sittuation..... As far as getting sounds, I did the old record, and play back, and see what ya got sort of deal, which can be time consuming, but it comes down to how bad do you want to do it ya know, but after a while you learn your space, and its not so time consuming.

Funny thing is.... I have recorded some of my best sounds, and done my best mixes NOT OVER THINKING IT.... when i start to think too much it all goes down the pipes. I guess you just sort of get an instinct about your space after a while.

[Grapestomper]

You've already named one of the major advantages. You don't have to divide a room which is the proper size for both a control room and a room into two that are not the proper size for either.

Tell us some other advantages you have discovered working this way.

Mixerman

Gee... ya put it like that...

Well, given that there is no assistant, at least this way I'm never very far from the transport controlls.

If I am recording someone else, with this arrangement, they're always within punching distance.

When I'm playing a take, I'll be in a better position to notice that the computer is smoking and flashing the BSOD.

Since I won't need it inside, I can mount the speaker outside the house, and use the talk-back mic to scare the shit out of people in the driveway. (You want fries with that?)

"Always look on the bright side of life..."



Brendo,

Thats such a crazy idea that it'll probably work. Damn! Thanks. Any recomendations for a long delay with a clean enough sound to use as part of monitoring the signal path?


Everyone,

It seems like, other than Brendo's trick, you all are saying that trial and error is basicly a necessary evil here. I guess that's the answer I was looking (if not hoping) for.

For what it's worth, the room in question is 18 by 30 with open rafters and a loft, and basicly contains my entire life. The "studio", such as it is, has to share space with a kitchennette and bathroom, a wood-burning stove, a small couch, and all of my worldly posessions. (Mostly instruments and books)

Oh, and I can't record with mics when it rains, because of the noise on the skylights. Definitely a moist situation.

No big deal, though: it's really just a songwriter's studio anyway... not like I'm making hit records here. I'm just hoping to get the most out of what I've got, since it's in a really beautiful, inspiring place, and I'm not thinking of leaving.

Thanks again for taking up this discussion,
Mike

[Starfucker]

But when I record... and I usually don't have an assistant, I go out in the studio with the cans on to find a nice placement. then I go into the CR to see what it sounds like in the monitors, then I go back to change it because it sucks. So the only difference with a 1 room studio is the door between the rooms and the fact that I have to record something and listen back instead of listening live.

So that's not much of a difference. And so it's not a problem I need to solve.

...until I get an assistant to boss around from my safe and quiet CR...

Maybe compressing and EQing on tracking is harder. Do you think it's a solution to record a piece (I'm assuming we're in digital here), apply compression and eq and whatever to that and then switch them to the recording chain?

So I think I'd be a fan of 1 room studios if there's a booth to blast guitar amps insanely loud.

[malice]

Maybe compressing and EQing on tracking is harder. Do you think it's a solution to record a piece (I'm assuming we're in digital here), apply compression and eq and whatever to that and then switch them to the recording chain?


hmmm, it's not exactly the same thing, but yeah, I think this will give you some sort of starting point and will minimise the "hit and miss" part.

You will still have to fine tune a bit and you better have transparent converters at this game. The more transparent, the closer you'll get before switching.

malice