I have a really dumb question regarding tracking an amp sim pedal.

[shakespearesmans]

I just got this Sansamp British pedal, and I've heard samples on youtube that sound really good. However, it just doesn't sound that great when I run it straight through the Hi-z on my audio interface.

Would I get a much better result running this through a really nice preamp, like say a Neve? I don't have said preamp, but I guess I could rent one if I thought it would make this pedal sound any better.

[shakespearesmans]

I guess it WAS a dumb question, since I got 15 views and nada.

[gonzo-x]

that pedal's made to go into a guitar amp, preferably tube, for the best results.

[Keks]

I don't know the British, but I got OK results playing a Liverpool direct.
What are you up to with it?
What do you expect the preamp to do?

All the best,
the keks

[shakespearesmans]

I'm hoping a pre could give it more warmth, more body... just overall sound better than going DI. It's weird. Imitating the settings used in the Youtube demo (which sounded great), it just doesn't sound that great recorded.

that pedal's made to go into a guitar amp, preferably tube, for the best results.

It's a Marshall type pedal, but can I run it though any tube amp that has a good clean?

[gonzo-x]

well, the best idea i can come up with, would be to marry that pedal with an amp that takes advantage of whatever sonics that particular pedal has...

maybe, running it into a 5 watt EL84 driven amp wide open, would be perfect...

or maybe running it into a very clean and quiet 100 watt fender twin, would be even better...

i can't say, cuz i don't know what kind of sound your after.

but i can GUARANTEE, it aint gonna sound like a real marshall.

but, that's not the point.

the point is, you don't want to run a pedal like this direct, that's not what it's made for.

[eagan]

OK, look.

You're wondering about the lack of response? I just got curious after reading this, and had a few minutes I could take. So I went to the Tech21 site and downloaded the manual.

It tells you, in a simple manual running the epic length all of five pages, that the output is a low impedance output that, depending on settings, can run anywhere from unity gain levels to be suitable for a straight guitar amp input like any pedal, to line level.

So did you just run the output right into a line input and try that out to see how it sounded?


The point here is that this place is a great resource of helpful people to point you toward clues and answer questions about topics beyond their current level of knowledge and understanding, to explain concepts that might puzzle people somewhere on the learning curve, as we all are, to help sort out confusing and mystifying situations, and so on.

Come here asking questions that show that you can't even bother to crack open the manual for your own gear, and want other people to do the most basic homework for you, and you might find that you're mostly being ignored.

So.

This time, you're welcome.

Next time, it will only be "RTFM".



JLE

[AxeSlash]

Yet to hear a "normal" pedal that sounds good direct without LOTS of arsing around with EQ.

A new pre will do you no good in that respect. Run it through an amp, or get something like that Palmer box Slippy was destroying (check the radio).

[shakespearesmans]

Yet to hear a "normal" pedal that sounds good direct without LOTS of arsing around with EQ.

A new pre will do you no good in that respect. Run it through an amp, or get something like that Palmer box Slippy was destroying (check the radio).

I checked out a palmer box, and it was close to $200. Can you recommend something cheaper. Would a regular DI box work, and then just run from the DI to the preamp?


The point here is that this place is a great resource of helpful people to point you toward clues and answer questions about topics beyond their current level of knowledge and understanding, to explain concepts that might puzzle people somewhere on the learning curve, as we all are, to help sort out confusing and mystifying situations, and so on.

Come here asking questions that show that you can't even bother to crack open the manual for your own gear, and want other people to do the most basic homework for you, and you might find that you're mostly being ignored.


I did not get a manual with the thing, so I didn't think about finding one to download. I've never downloaded a manual in my 32 years, so it wasn't something I thought of.

Instead I come to a forum, where people ask all sorts of questions and share all sorts of information. I have information inside my head that someday I might share here, IF I decide to stay. I'm new year, and I didn't think it was too much to expect people to be kind and generous with their input.

The fact is, I've never dealt too much with this sim type pedals. I understood that other pedals are usually combined with an amp, but I thought that this one could be inputed direct for usable results. Guess not.

[otek]

I checked out a palmer box, and it was close to $200. Can you recommend something cheaper.

200 bucks is pretty damn cheap for what the Palmer does. It's pretty much rock bottom. Even a GOOD passive DI (with a good transformer) will cost you 150 bucks and up.

I've never downloaded a manual in my 32 years, so it wasn't something I thought of.

See how useful this forum is? You've learned something really valuable already.

I have information inside my head that someday I might share here, IF I decide to stay.

Is it about who really shot J.R. Ewing in "Dallas"?

I didn't think it was too much to expect people to be kind and generous with their input.

I thought Eagan was very kind and generous to look up the manual and do your homework for you.

The fact is, I've never dealt too much with this sim type pedals.

That's fine. Just making sure you get this: No one here is gonna beat your ass for not knowing stuff. No one is going to ridicule you for lack of experience. They might, however, beat your ass for being lazy.

I thought that this one could be inputed direct for usable results. Guess not.

See? Yet another valuable piece of knowledge that comes to you as a direct result of spending time on this forum.

Welcome to the Womb!


otek

[gonzo-x]

i think you might be better off, to send that pedal back, and look for a used POD...
if you want to work direct, and are not really concerned with 'stellar' guitar tracks.
that'd be the 'cut to the chase' solution.

[shakespearesmans]

i think you might be better off, to send that pedal back, and look for a used POD...
if you want to work direct, and are not really concerned with 'stellar' guitar tracks.
that'd be the 'cut to the chase' solution.

I would do that, but got it second hand. I guess I'm just gonna see if I can borrow an amp from someone, because I can't afford a $200 direct box.

[Keks]

the point is, you don't want to run a pedal like this direct, that's not what it's made for.

Those sansamp character thingies have a speaker emulation and very effective EQ.
So, they can be used direct, in principle.

[otek]

I can't afford a $200 direct box.

That's OK - a DI box is not what's going to make the desired difference, in this case.

A good DI box may give you subtle improvement over a bad one, but it's not going to turn a guitar sound you hate into a guitar sound you love.


otek

[gonzo-x]

Those sansamp character thingies have a speaker emulation and very effective EQ.
So, they can be used direct, in principle.
nope, not these pedals.

you're thinking of the SANSAMP classic, and even those didn't sound that good used direct, versus a miced cab.....(i've used them, so that's my subjective opinion)

the newer pedal, is really meant to drive an amp, and adds an eq to that amp that helps it sound more like the character of the pedal intent...

[gonzo-x]

to be fair to sansamp...
i think the classic series worked well, driving a tube amp.
it's more like a really refined preamp circuit (all analog) and i think that's pretty cool.

the speaker sims in those things, i never thought were actually very good.

that said, i use a sansamp BASS DI on a regular basis, and love it..

but guitars, they're a more tricky beast.

i use a Palmer PDI-09 as a go-between my amp and my recording interface...

i've found it to be excellent.

that, and a WEBER Mass Lite, lets me tame my live rig for recording at any volume, even late night.
it's a great compromise to full out miced cabs, which is always the preference.

[shakespearesmans]

i think you might be better off, to send that pedal back, and look for a used POD...

If I were to get a Pod, like the XT, will running THAT though a nice preamp be beneficial?

[gonzo-x]

not any more beneficial than running a really nice LDC thru a really nice preamp, versus a crappy one.....

[otek]

If I were to get a Pod, like the XT, will running THAT though a nice preamp be beneficial?

It will be beneficial in as much as it enhances the quality of the recording.

As I said before, it's not gonna turn a crappy sound into a good one, or a tone you hate into one you love.

Get it at the source first. Not in the signal chain.


otek

[Dave Perry]

My suggestion would be to send a message to the person who posted your favorite YouTube video and ask them what exactly was in their rig when they recorded, or look in the sidebar and see if they list the gear.

Sounds to me that you have a pedal that isn't really for DI, even if it has that capability. I have the Tech 21 XXL pedal and it sounds like an alien insect invasion when used direct, but it can get more than decent results driving an amp.

[Brendo]

Instead I come to a forum, where people ask all sorts of questions and share all sorts of information. I have information inside my head that someday I might share here, IF I decide to stay. I'm new year, and I didn't think it was too much to expect people to be kind and generous with their input.

15 views is small change around here. You now have 166 views. 15 views is "first hour" sort of stuff... which is why it may have seemed like you jumped the gun a touch.

[Tim Halligan]

Welcome to the Womb.

What no-one's actually said out loud yet...but many probably thought it...why are you wanting to be a clownfucker?

clown·fuck·er (klounfŭk'er)
n.

1. Audio term coined by Volthause.

2. Person engaged in the process of recording guitar or bass using modeling amplification.

See also related forms:

clown·fuck - verb
clown·fuck·ing - noun
clown·fuck·ish - adjective
clown·fuck·ish·ly - adverb


Cheers,
Tim

[Cary Chilton]

See Otek this exactly what I meant with pedals into DI. That is why I was shocked about the HM-2 >DI actually working. Are there any other distortion pedals like HM-2 that will do this?

[Knastratt]

Clawfinger's first albums were tracked entirely with SansAmps.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/D6zyOGqxxs4&hl=sv_SE&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/D6zyOGqxxs4&hl=sv_SE&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

PS I have no glue what they used in the sauna, though :)

[Goes211]

I have no glue

Shall I make a "sticky" out of this post then ?
(rimshot) :D

[Trazan]

The main features of the Tech21 SANSAMP BRITISH include:


Rich SansAmp cabinet emulation and preamp in a pedal
Searing blues to UK anarchy from this Anglo-voiced pedal
Intuitive amp-like controls
Level, Mid, Character, Drive, Low and High rotary controls
Can be used as a stand-alone guitar pre-amp to go direct to a power amp, a studio mixer, PA system or computer soundcard


So it's not a regular guitar pedal.

Stick it into the line in, not hi-z. If you don't like it it's not for you. Not even a Neve Royal Deluxe Platinum Anniversary Rupert Special will change that.

[Goes211]

If you don't like it it's not for you. Not even a Neve Royal Deluxe Platinum Anniversary Rupert Special will change that.

However, I can pretty much guarantee the a Neve Royal Deluxe Platinum Anniversary Rupert Special XT will make a world of difference.

[Trazan]

However, I can pretty much guarantee the a Neve Royal Deluxe Platinum Anniversary Rupert Special XT will make a world of difference.

Ah, of course, but you'd have to kill Slipperman to get it!

[eagan]

Stick it into the line in, not hi-z. If you don't like it it's not for you. Not even a Neve Royal Deluxe Platinum Anniversary Rupert Special will change that.


That pretty much covers all there is to say on this that really matters.


JLE

[imagineaudio]

Try this and let me know what you think:


Run the pedal into a line in on your DAW

Download this:

http://lepouplugins.blogspot.com/2009/07/lecab-v10.html

and stick it as an insert.


Report back here.

[otek]

See Otek this exactly what I meant with pedals into DI. That is why I was shocked about the HM-2 >DI actually working. Are there any other distortion pedals like HM-2 that will do this?

No piece of equipment unequivocally "works" or "doesn't work". Especially when it comes to something like electric guitar sounds, which to paraphrase Slipperman, no one has been able to agree on for more than 15 minutes throughout the entire history of recorded music.

That's what I meant about reversing your thought pattern here. The pedal is what it is. It sounds the way it sounds. Some people used this creatively, and came up with a unique thing. YOU have to decide what tools to use and how to make them work inside YOUR musical context.

Adrian Belew used a Roland Jazz Chorus with a bunch of pedals in front of it. Mike Keneally recorded his entire first solo record with the original SansAmp. Thurston Moore used to jam drum sticks under the strings. Are those generically great guitar sounds that would make people turn their heads in a music store? I don't know. Probably not. But when put in creative and appropriate musical context, they helped define these unique artists.



otek




PS. For further examples of this line of thinking, take a listen to The Mistakes - band featuring the aforementioned Mike Keneally along with Henry Kaiser, Prarie Prince and Andy West. I can guarantee you that NONE of the guitar sounds here are generic stadium rock sounds that will make girls throw their panties onto the stage - but it's pretty damn great all the same.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e1iJcfjJKi8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/e1iJcfjJKi8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

[Dave Perry]

Yea, I don't think Henry Kaiser ever got any panties. He did. however have an amazing amp when I say him play once---a Dumble Overdrive Special combo. Sounded killer and was a good consolation prize in lieu of panties. :Coolio:

[Brendo]

See Otek this exactly what I meant with pedals into DI. That is why I was shocked about the HM-2 >DI actually working. Are there any other distortion pedals like HM-2 that will do this?

The point is, in death metal you're trying to create a completely different, unnatural, brutal sounding 'buzzsaw' tone - HM2 direct does this.

You on the other hand? You're big into your plexis, your JCM800's, whatever. Pedals direct are never gonna sound like that.

[Trazan]

Yea, I don't think Henry Kaiser ever got any panties. He did. however have an amazing amp when I say him play once---a Dumble Overdrive Special combo. Sounded killer and was a good consolation prize in lieu of panties. :Coolio:

Here he is with his Dumble...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HOalFayFQgg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HOalFayFQgg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

No comment :grin:

[Dave Perry]

I stand corrected, it wasn't a combo. Looks like a "matching" cab, though, maybe made by someone else. I should say he sounded better with the guitar he was using that night, though, which wasn't a Steinberger....





















...and there was sound coming into both my left and right ears then too. :grin:

[Dave Perry]

BTW, sorry for derailing the thread (again). I was trying to take it from a really dumb question to a really Dumble question. :Redface: :grin:

[Cary Chilton]

Here he is with his Dumble...

Dumble Bee or not , that wasn't for me. I don't like the sound of Steinbergers either...

[otek]

Dumble Bee or not , that wasn't for me. I don't like the sound of Steinbergers either...

You realize that whole thing wasn't necessarily a relevant extension of my point, right?

Although it did kind of make its own. :D


otek

[Cary Chilton]

You realize that whole thing wasn't necessarily a relevant extension of my point, right?

Although it did kind of make its own. :D


otek

Dude, I just made comment on that guitarists playing and tone wasn't directed to you in anyway.... His tone wasn't horrible, I just have heard better sound examples coming from a Dumble... I also heard much better tone coming from a Steinberger.

I post a comment in response to you though, the HM-2 was obviously used like a Sansamp back in the back because it didn't sound too bad. There were and are many OD and or dist pedals that would fare worse.

[otek]

Dude, I just made comment on that guitarists playing and tone wasn't directed to you in anyway.... His tone wasn't horrible, I just have heard better sound examples coming from a Dumble... I also heard much better tone coming from a Steinberger.

Fair enough.

Neither the Dumble or the Steinberger is the "problem" here, though.... I would expect Henry Kaiser to sound about the same with a Les Paul and a Marshall. Which does reinforce my previous point in a way: If you're not into the music, you're probably not gonna like the sound either.

Personally I thought the drums sounded far more horrendous in this context than that guitar, but that's me. :D

I post a comment in response to you though, the HM-2 was obviously used like a Sansamp back in the back because it didn't sound too bad. There were and are many OD and or dist pedals that would fare worse.

I have a feeling it was pretty incidental that they started using the HM-2 of all things. There was probably one laying around, they started futzing around with it, and discovered it actually worked for what they were trying to do. I've had the same experience many times during sessions.

Conversely, I have had many experiences of making the "obvious choice", only to find out it didn't work at all.


otek

[Cary Chilton]

I am sure that is how the HM-2 came about for that app. Trial and error and sometimes just luck. I haven't messed with sticking a dirt box into DI for a long time. I have several more different pedals now, might be worth a try... BTW the output of the pedal can't damage my mbox2 DI , can it?

[Brendo]

think about it. signal levels. a guitar amp is expecting a piss tiny little instrument level signal. so a line input like on a DI is always going to be able to take more input than a guitar amp.

[Dave Perry]

Personally I thought the drums sounded far more horrendous in this context than that guitar, but that's me. :D





Well that says something about the audio on that clip, which was also noisy and strangely limited in output to one channel.

He also had a pedal board so he may have been driving the Dumble with a quirky pedal during the lead sections.

I guess I may have to backtrack and admit his Dumble may not be quite as good as panties :icon_eek:, but I heard him over twenty years ago and was attending U.C. Berkeley at the time so...:Coolio: :)

I did like the clean sound but that sound is reminiscent of most of what I've heard from other Dumble players like Robben Ford and I know Christopher Cross used a Dumble for some of his stuff. The sound isn't for everyone and it's nothing like an SLP. Honestly, it's sort of a "smooth rock" sort of sound. Or, might I venture to call it a....yacht rock kind of sound....?

:icon_eek: :icon_eek: Evil!

One thing I'll say about Henry, though is he's unconventional in a reasonably cool sort of way. Prog rock/fusion guitar player, oceanographer, and heir (in part) to the Oakland, CA Kaiser family fortune (which probably explains his not-so-cheap equipment).

BTW, here's his chain for that video:

GUITAR > PETE CORNISH TRANSISTOR FUZZ > CHANDLER TUBE DRIVER > DUMBLE OVERDRIVE SPECIAL AMPLIFIER (PRE-AMP SECTION) > DBX 160X COMPRESSOR > ERNIE BALL VOLUME PEDAL > ADA PITCHTRAQ (PITCH TRANSPOSER) > EVENTIDE H-3000 ULTRA HARMONIZER > LEXICON PCM-42 (DIGITAL DELAY) > TC 2290 (DIGITAL DELAY) > ALESIS MIDIVERB (REVERB) > DUMBLE OVERDRIVE SPECIAL AMPLIFIER (POWER-AMP SECTION) > JBL D-120 INSTRUMENT SPEAKER

[Cary Chilton]

think about it. signal levels. a guitar amp is expecting a piss tiny little instrument level signal. so a line input like on a DI is always going to be able to take more input than a guitar amp.

THat's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure.

I remember a guy at a music store, not knowing the answer to the question and said something to the effect : better stick to just mics to be on the safe side

[tannoy]

think about it. signal levels. a guitar amp is expecting a piss tiny little instrument level signal. so a line input like on a DI is always going to be able to take more input than a guitar amp.

Erm...isn't the issue more about input/output impedance mismatches ? That's what the Hi-Z inputs are made for....


Marco

[otek]

He also had a pedal board so he may have been driving the Dumble with a quirky pedal during the lead sections.

It sounded to me like he was using the Eventide backwards delay program. Anyway, an FX heavy situation like this one (particularly with ADA and Alesis boxes, which have some phenomenally craptacular line stages) is not a very good demo for an amp sound.

My point in the earlier post was as a reply to Cary, who sort of took it at face value when I claimed DI'ing the HM-2 might be (and has been) a usable approach for distorted guitar sounds.

Knowing that Cary's taste leans towards EVH and classic stadium-era rock and metal tones, my reply needed a lot of disclaimers :D which is why I pointed out that there is no guitar gear that always "works" or "doesn't work". Sometimes, very unlikely gear has been used to create the most original and exciting sounds. If you say something "works", you are implying that it's "good", and what the hell is "good", anyway?

As for Henry Kaiser, you are preaching to the choir in my case. I love this kind of stuff.


otek

[eagan]

The big theme flowing through here is an old one and it's one that won't ever be RESOLVED, it can't be.

Pose the question... "electric guitar.... what sounds good?", then run and hide somewhere watching the chaos and snicker.

Something that somebody thinks is golden genius is going to make somebody else say "man, that's just weird".

You could probably make an exhaustive study of people who many people thought had a great sound, while using some gear and setup that might seem just downright ODD.

I've always liked Mike Oldfield, and he's almost always gotten great guitar sounds, for my taste. In the late seventies I read some interview with him, during a period when I thought he got fantastic sounds, and his description of his guitar setup for recording was just incredibly odd.

I love David Torn, but play some of his stuff for some people, and they might sit there saying "what the fuck is THAT?".


The only secret formula: try stuff until you get what you like.


JLE

[Brendo]

Erm...isn't the issue more about input/output impedance mismatches ? That's what the Hi-Z inputs are made for....


Marco

you seriously think he will damage his mbox with a guitar pedal?

it might sound shit but you would have to try very hard to damage anything.

[tannoy]

you seriously think he will damage his mbox with a guitar pedal?

Nope.

it might sound shit...

Yes.

:Wink:


Marco

[Brendo]

Nope.

right, and the question was:

BTW the output of the pedal can't damage my mbox2 DI , can it?

so i gave the right answer. the impedance thing's already been touched on.

[tannoy]

...so i gave the right answer. the impedance thing's already been touched on.

No, no.....I didn't mean that you were giving the wrong answer. Sorry if it came across that way. I just found the connection of line inputs and guitar signals a bit strange, therefore my comment. Got a bit confused.

Marco

[Jasco]

I would do that, but got it second hand. I guess I'm just gonna see if I can borrow an amp from someone, because I can't afford a $200 direct box.

If I were to get a Pod, like the XT, will running THAT though a nice preamp be beneficial?

If you can't afford a $200 direct box, you certainly can't afford a nice preamp.


Also, I'd opinionate that if you are playing electric guitar, getting an actual guitar amplifier should be on a list of priorities.

[shakespearesmans]

If you can't afford a $200 direct box, you certainly can't afford a nice preamp.


Also, I'd opinionate that if you are playing electric guitar, getting an actual guitar amplifier should be on a list of priorities.

No but I can borrow a nice pre, which is what I just did.

[Dave Perry]

It sounded to me like he was using the Eventide backwards delay program. Anyway, an FX heavy situation like this one (particularly with ADA and Alesis boxes, which have some phenomenally craptacular line stages) is not a very good demo for an amp sound.


He was also running with a JBL, which wouldn't be my first choice for distorted guitar.

Speaking on the Boss HM-2 (and JBL's incidentally) I had read that, at least for a time starting in the 80's, Jerry Garcia preferred an HM-2 to add distortion to his otherwise clean BF Twin. His distortion sound on In The Dark sounded familiar to me (I had an HM-2) and it really is at least verging on the proverbial craptastic. I think you can hear it on Hell In A Bucket and his tone improves dramatically when he switches out the pedal (IMHO, YMMV, NTTAWWT, etc.).

[otek]

No but I can borrow a nice pre, which is what I just did.

I seem to have made it onto someone's ignore list. :lol:


otek

[Keks]

No but I can borrow a nice pre, which is what I just did.

So, how does it sound now?