Logic Compressor opinions/tips?

[ben_allison]

My favourite AU compressor has to be the Sonalksis. It just sounds GOOD. I was liking the PSP stuff, but I find the more I use the PSP comps, the more grainy and cardboardy they sound...

I know Logic is popular here, so I'm wondering how peeps are finding the Logic Compressor.

What modes do people prefer?

Any tips?

I think the fact that it has clipping modes and a mix control are great features, although, I find it to be kinda boring... more of a "smoothing out dynamics" tool, rather than a "smash and attitude" tool.

[Ein Mangfaldig Kar]

The logic compressors do a fine job, especially on the channels. From V8 they allso have a lot more sidechaining options and mix controll. It gives you alot of variables to shape the sound. The silver comp is the same algorithm as the regular comp, but with auto make-up gain, and not as deep in sculpting options.
I haven't really looked into the different "models" on the standard yet I tend to stick to the classic…

I allso like the airwindows AUs.

[otek]

I find it to be kinda boring... more of a "smoothing out dynamics" tool, rather than a "smash and attitude" tool.

Funny you should say that, because it's the opposite of my experience.

I find I can smash things to all hell with the Logic compressor.

One thing I really like about it is, it seems to have some kind of adaptive thing going - no matter how I try, it's really hard to make it "grrrr" (warble) even at the fastest possible settings.


otek

[ben_allison]

Funny you should say that, because it's the opposite of my experience.

I find I can smash things to all hell with the Logic compressor.

One thing I really like about it is, it seems to have some kind of adaptive thing going - no matter how I try, it's really hard to make it "grrrr" (warble) even at the fastest possible settings

Interesting! I will play more.

[Fulcrum]

The only reason I ever use the Logic comp any more is when I need the side chain to work reliably (e.g., keying the bass from the kick). It doesn't with the Wave Arts Track Plug, or rather, doesn't always. Haven't tried it yet with the Sonalksis, which I agree sounds better. But I know I can get what I'm after on the Logic comp.

[Slipperman]

I use the Logic comp's like a madman.

More than all the URS, UAD, Waves, etc. put togther.

I find them both flexible and effective for a myriad of "upstream signal treatment" stuff.

Especially on stuff that was tracked digitally.

Those signals can often wreak havoc with "Old School" outboard downstream with much faster/greater transient energy than stuff that was sourced from tape.

Once you learn how to "hear" them, as opposed to HEARING THEM WORKING(which, in all honesty... took me a while) you can get them to do tons of great utility work WITHOUT the smallness factor that usually accumulates with the use of a ton of upstream ITB dynamics processing, in the fabric of my experience.

SM.

[majestikc]

Any pointers on how to learn to "hear" them?

[otek]

Any pointers on how to learn to "hear" them?

I think the more relevant question is what Slipperman meant by "hearing" in this case. I am guessing it's more about the intent and the idea, than the effect itself.

Hearing them "do their thing" is easy. Just play with settings from subtle to extreme, and learn their behavior and sound. Something I find very educational is changing the parameters very slowly and listen to what happens as the value is being changed. This is what you're missing if you are flicking through presets.


otek

[majestikc]

In other words basically knowing what you want and why you want it from the compressor before you even start with the settings?

[Fulcrum]

Well, having an idea is always helpful going into a mix, but I think he might be talking about getting a feel for its specific character beforehand, by building up experience with it. The Logic compressor might not be the right tool for the job, but you wouldn't have a basis to think that unless you've messed with it some and had other compressors around with which to compare it.

With that listening under your belt, "knowing what you want and why you want it from the compressor" becomes more of a snap judgment.

[Slipperman]

Hearing the subtle effect of the reshaping of audio by a device long before the onset of audible processing artifact.

I have no clue on how to further explain my earlier statement without creating more chaos and confusion.

I really have lost my fucking mind.

Looks like I'm turning into the Yogi Berra of audio.

Kill me.

SM.

[meLoCo_go]

I really have lost my fucking mind.

Don't be embarrassed. Tell us about it:Roll eyes:


Preferably in the narrative form:Wink:

Seriously, is there a non-zero possibility you would ever record any new installments?

Puhliiizzzz:Uh oh:

[otek]

In other words basically knowing what you want and why you want it from the compressor before you even start with the settings?

Sorry. I guess I misunderstood the intent of Slipperman's post before.

Hearing the subtle effect of the reshaping of audio by a device long before the onset of audible processing artifact.

Reading that, my earlier suggestion is still valid. Start by engaging the unit with all settings zeroed, and listen to what happens as you very slowly change a parameter. I find listening intently to that continuous change, rather than auditioning a series of static presets, has taught me a lot more about what any processing device does.


otek

[Slipperman]

Sorry. I guess I misunderstood the intent of Slipperman's post before.
Reading that, my earlier suggestion is still valid. Start by engaging the unit with all settings zeroed, and listen to what happens as you very slowly change a parameter. I find listening intently to that continuous change, rather than auditioning a series of static presets, has taught me a lot more about what any processing device does.
otek

Hey Otek!

You did great! I don't know if ANYBODY misunderstood my post more than me.

I re-read it and it confused the shit outta me!

Not even kidding really!!!

Hence the Yogi Berra comment.

XOXOX

Slippy

[Ein Mangfaldig Kar]

Wow, I actually get it!

WooT!

[majestikc]

They should just make a dancing James Brown compressor plugin where you know you got it right when he starts doing the "robot"

[David Aurora]

They should just make a dancing James Brown compressor plugin where you know you got it right when he starts doing the "robot"

:lol::lol::lol:

[strangedays]

Basically these genius's are saying that if it fucks up the sound, you dont know what you doing with it (unless you were after that). You wanna make sure that the listener doesn't know what you are doing. You can compress to death, but if someone things JESUS that drum sounds like its really fucked and its ruining the song, then you are not producing a positive result.

Hense Oteks suggestions of tweaking slowly cos that way you can hear how you are damaging the sound/ distorting the sound and whether its still beneficial, or destructive. Big adjustments can reveal the overall differences in the style of compressor, handy to compair VCA/Opto styles and the rest but useless with actually crafting. I m still new at this but I have begun to get it and my mixes now sound fantastic compaired to the mish mash bolox of yesteryear because I spend a lot more time listening as Otek has suggested. However I make sure the song is mixed properly first with faders and EQ.

I got my arse in gear recently with this side of things when I realised that you mix first, then tweak dynamics/frequency, but with a good mix why destroy it all with compressors. In the music I love doing its all about keeping it sounding realistic in the most artificial way possible. It might sound odd that but combinations of gating and compression can clean stuff up and yet done right goes unnoticed. You are only going to find those settings with mini adjustments, you may find you can squeeze harder than you realised without ruining stuff. Great fun when you get into it.

[otek]

Hense Oteks suggestions of tweaking slowly cos that way you can hear how you are damaging the sound/ distorting the sound and whether its still beneficial, or destructive.

Actually, I meant it more as a method for learning what separates one compressor from another in terms of sound and behavior.

The other thing which I've mentioned ad nauseam is to always compare sounds at subjective unity gain. A lot of times you will prefer a compressed sound just because it's louder.


otek

[meLoCo_go]

A lot of times you will prefer a compressed sound just because it's louder.


otek
IMO that would be the case mostly on auto-makeup comps. That's why I hate'em

[otek]

IMO that would be the case mostly on auto-makeup comps. That's why I hate'em

Curious thing about the Logic compressor - it sounds better with the auto-makeup, even when adjusted for unity-gain output. Consequently, I always use it.


otek

[ben_allison]

A PLAGUE UPON MY HOUSE FOR NOT SUBSCRIBING TO MY OWN THREAD!

Thanks Slip and Otek!

I've played with Logic's comp and thought it was prety good, but some lame sense of thinking I should be using 3rd party plugs, that are OBVIOUSLY better (I mean just look at the graphics) kept me from taking it more seriously.

To the woodshed...

[ben_allison]

Typically when I'm learning how something like a comp works, I'll do as Otek's suggested: crank all the settings, and play with one to figure out what it's doing.

Personally, I think comps are probably the hardest devices to really "get"... I mean, I'm always maxing the settings just so I can really hear what the attack or release are doing... I'll be damned if I can hear much difference in a comp's attack at 2:1 with -1.5db reduction.

But yeah, the clipping modes, side-chain, and extreme settings in Logic's comp make it such a great tool... I've definitely undersold it to myself.

I still need to get a better grip on the various modes... am I to believe that the VCA/Opto/Fet/Classic A_R/Classic A_U are "based" on actual hardware?

[otek]

I'll do as Otek's suggested: crank all the settings, and play with one to figure out what it's doing.

Actually, I didn't suggest to "crank all settings" either.... man, I am getting so many versions on what I actually said, it's mind-boggling. :lol:

Here it is again, for your edification and convenience:

Start by engaging the unit with all settings zeroed, and listen to what happens as you very slowly change a parameter.

Of course, it goes without saying that you have to use at least SOME kind of compression ratio on there, or you won't hear much difference!

The important thing is to REALLY study the changes, and have patience with it. If you instantly crank all settings and start going berserk with it (and I used this method for a long time myself), any imbecile could hear it, but you don't get what the unit does when it's as its most subtle. Consequently, when you apply milder compression later, you are just guessing at the settings (or reading the meters) rather than paying attention. Once you do this, you'll find that you can certainly...

...hear much difference in a comp's attack at 2:1 with -1.5db reduction.

I still need to get a better grip on the various modes... am I to believe that the VCA/Opto/Fet/Classic A_R/Classic A_U are "based" on actual hardware?

I suppose they are at some level based on those hardware principles, or even direct models of them - although that's really not relevant to hearing the differences.


otek

[David Aurora]

.....
I still need to get a better grip on the various modes... am I to believe that the VCA/Opto/Fet/Classic A_R/Classic A_U are "based" on actual hardware?

Who knows, but I find most of them useful at some point or another for different sources. No idea which is which by name, i just flick through while listening and pick the one that works best for the source. But yeah, I find the differences similar to the differences between hardware units in that I know I can do basic compression with any of them, but my gut knows that a certain comp in the rack will dirty up a metal snare really nice, whereas another one will be more kind to a bass guitar, etc.

[strangedays]

The important thing is to REALLY study the changes, and have patience with it. If you instantly crank all settings and start going berserk with it (and I used this method for a long time myself), any imbecile could hear it, but you don't get what the unit does when it's as its most subtle. Consequently, when you apply milder compression later, you are just guessing at the settings (or reading the meters) rather than paying attention.


otek

It definitely takes a while to appreciate this without wondering WTF you are doing. When you are a newbie doing this you might also apply loads of gentle settings and think you've done a good job- but all your attack and release times are out.

Im still mastering compression, but when you learn to not use a compressor to adjust dynamics and understand that a fader does volume, thats when you can get a lot better. Oteks tip of listening to stuff at the same volume (to your ears) really works well in achieving this.

It also goes back to Weedwets advice about getting your mix right using faders first. Only then can you make sensible compression choices.

[otek]

When you are a newbie doing this you might also apply loads of gentle settings and think you've done a good job- but all your attack and release times are out.


Well, but the attack and release settings WOULDN'T be "out" if you had actually listened carefully at unity gain and determined that the compression, in the context of the music, sounded BETTER. "Out", by definition, would be something that made the sound WORSE. "Out" is case specific, and not subject to some specific "higher truth".

And THIS is the problem - people apply compression either knee-jerk because "it's what the pros do", or they listen to the compression at louder gain settings, which makes the compression sound better simply because of volume.


otek

[strangedays]

Yea I know its wrong to label exacts in this art, no brush stroke is specific I get that.

The other side of this from being definite is.. do you ever need compression. What if it had never been made? You would do your best with faders/pan (eq?) and that would be it.

If everyones playing nice and tight though you might still feel benefits from subtle compression with correct release and attack settings, bit you dont necessary need it.

Thats what its about really isnt it, like BBC Radio 6 its there but who needs it!

[otek]

Thats what its about really isnt it, like BBC Radio 6 its there but who needs it!

:lol:

Seriously though, I think it's a case of it being around for so long that it's made an almost indelible imprint on the minds of people regarding what certain things are supposed to sound like.

Compression, used properly, can be a great way to convey the energy of a performance to someone listening on a small, bedroom stereo system. It can bring out details that enhance the feel of the music. It can also utterly destroy the size and impact of a sound. I think for me, as with most things audio the best approach is not abstinence, but intelligence - feel free to go crazy with it, but be smart about the where and how.


otek

[David Aurora]

Yea I know its wrong to label exacts in this art, no brush stroke is specific I get that.

The other side of this from being definite is.. do you ever need compression. What if it had never been made? You would do your best with faders/pan (eq?) and that would be it.

If everyones playing nice and tight though you might still feel benefits from subtle compression with correct release and attack settings, bit you dont necessary need it.

Thats what its about really isnt it, like BBC Radio 6 its there but who needs it!

i dunno if i can get these thoughts out clearly as text but ill give it a go.

i see compression in 2 ways these days. no, wait, 3.

1. envelope shaping device. to bring out attack, or conversely, to bring out resonance. equally as usable in the analog or digital domain
2. tone shaping device. certain comps have a sound of their own, like a classic guitar amp or microphone. this can be cool. generally this is an analog domain thing (though obviously theres a big market of modelled shit out there...)
3. a purely technical tool (this is where i use compression most). analog domain. a device to maximise signal to noise ratio, conversion resolution and minimise the risk of clipping. used this way you learn VERY quickly from fuck ups because you dont really get a second shot. you dont generally insert a comp here just for the hell of it. it gets patched in when the audio quality is suffering without it due to extreme dynamic range that costs fidelity in the recording medium. when you cant ride the fader or gain control as efficiently as a compressor, and it would be detrimental to the music to ask the artist to reduce their dynamic range during the performance.

so yeah, i think there are times we "need" compression, whether for artistic reasons (1 and 2 above), or for technical reasons (3).

[johndou]

My perception is that the majority of compression abuse happens with drums, especially with close-mic'd stuff. Newer people tend to underestimate the value of 'natural' compression, such as those found on the overhead and room mics for a drumkit.

Agree / disagree?

[David Aurora]

My perception is that the majority of compression abuse happens with drums, especially with close-mic'd stuff. Newer people tend to underestimate the value of 'natural' compression, such as those found on the overhead and room mics for a drumkit.

Agree / disagree?

agree. a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees i guess.

"look how up front and clear i made the snare drum!" "yeah, congrats asswipe, now it sounds like the drummer overdubbed it" :lol:

[Kita]

We use it almost every day here on just about everything. I don't think I've ever seen it put past 3.5:1, though.