What Adds MORE Interest to Distorted Guitars?

[hakimcallier]

Hi All,

How do you add interest to traditional guitar sounds?

I am currently mixing a very guitar heavy, Radiohead-like tune (loops, percussion and groovy bass lines). And I wanted to know if anyone could tell me about FX or other treatments for adding interest to guitars.

There are about 5 different guitar parts:


Tremolo Rhythm
Lead (Orange Amp + Cab)
Phased Chords on chorus (Modern)
"Chimey" Rhythm (Vintage AC30 type sound)

I usually treat distorted guitars with flange, tape delay and pitch shift + delay. But are there any other treatments that may add a bit of interest to these guitar performances?

[Tim Halligan]

Perhaps better/more interesting performances might be a good starting point before you reach for the toys...

Just sayin'


Cheers,
Tim

[hakimcallier]

Perhaps better/more interesting performances might be a good starting point before you reach for the toys...Thanks Tim I agree with you that source is always the first option both performance and sound quality.

However, here I am not unhappy with the performances. As I noted the tune is Radiohead-like which means the band wants to hear the guitars pretty wet.

I was just wondering if there is anything more than the stuff I generally do. For example, I like C. Dye type harmonizing except I use a delay of 25/50ms more or less.

[AxeSlash]

Arseing around with chorus on lead and clean guitars tends to work well; only thing is you have to either be very very subtle or go all out ridiculous with it to try and avoid cheesiness.

That's about the only sort of "generic" thing I can think of, almost everything is dependent on what the material and performance.

All of that said, I'm no radiohead fan, so I'm probably not the best person to ask...

[hakimcallier]

Arseing around with chorus on lead and clean guitars tends to work well...Gotcha :Thumbsup: I'll arse-around with that a bit, thanks.

[eagan]

I have to say what is not so much a variation on what Tim said, more like a much more basic matter.

The performances are important. If it's badly executed, it's badly executed, if it's played well, it's played well, and this is fundamentally important.

But more fundamental; are the actual PARTS interesting? Are there ACTUAL MUSICAL IDEAS, or is it just a set of multiple tracks churning away filling sonic real estate? I'm not saying every note has to be brilliant genius. But does the part matter?

Just to be totally clear about this: This isn't an argument against, or criticism of, the idea of simple parts. We could have a thread party of taking turns naming players and tunes where there are parts that are just elementary dead simple, but totally essential to the music at hand.

No, it's more of a matter of having heard years of just really pointless masses of guitar tracks in all kinds of things where it seems like people thought "just keep piling 'em up, eventually it will sound cool", like somebody trying to get all spiffed up and dressing fancy and trying to make themselves as flashy and glamorous as possible before heading out to a party or something, and thinking all that will completely cancel out the fact that they're really an unattractive and dead boring human being.

I've got nothing at all against big masses of guitars. I love that stuff. But not as a substitute for nothing going on. If you have a pile of five or six guitar tracks and you're thinking "I don't know, man, nothing's really making an impression on me", maybe the central theme to think about is not "I need to make the sounds more interesting!".


That said, take it as you will, how about a one word answer: contrast.


JLE

[hakimcallier]

But does the part matter?That is a very good question. This band of guys are just a Saturday night jam band so there is no producer to speak of. Quite frankly, I never considered having a discussion about which parts should go. This conversation might get complicated... due to the nature of the band.

But it is worth looking into because I suspect that some of those guitar parts could very well be cut from the mix.

No, it's more of a matter of having heard years of just really pointless masses of guitar tracks in all kinds of things where it seems like people thought "just keep piling 'em up, eventually it will sound cool", like somebody trying to get all spiffed up and dressing fancy and trying to make themselves as flashy and glamorous as possible before heading out to a party or something, and thinking all that will completely cancel out the fact that they're really an unattractive and dead boring human being.That was a very funny analogy.

If you have a pile of five or six guitar tracks and you're thinking "I don't know, man, nothing's really making an impression on me", maybe the central theme to think about is not "I need to make the sounds more interesting!".Yeah, perhaps the central theme should be... hey what sounds interesting here?

contrast.Great thank you eagan, loads of help and great insight.

[eagan]

This band of guys are just a Saturday night jam band so there is no producer to speak of.



Yikes. I think you're getting down to the core of the thing here.


Quite frankly, I never considered having a discussion about which parts should go. This conversation might get complicated... due to the nature of the band.

But it is worth looking into because I suspect that some of those guitar parts could very well be cut from the mix.


Yeah. Now you're into the heart of the matter, that's the primary stuff.



Yeah, perhaps the central theme should be... hey what sounds interesting here?


Yep. That's the biggest thing, and it could be tricky with that whole "no producer" thing combined with "saturday night jam band". Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am, and a lot of people reading are going to be thinking the same thing. In short form, it definitely sounds like there's a certain "keep tossing shit at the wall and see what sticks" modus operandi going, there.

That can be not necessarily bad depending on a variety of things, but of course, the other end of that string is where it's then necessary to have some serious objective review with at least one person capable of adult supervision, in case collective consensus isn't working, to say "OK.... this.... uh-uh, that's OUT OF THERE" and not having anybody crying about it.


JLE

[hakimcallier]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am, and a lot of people reading are going to be thinking the same thing. In short form, it definitely sounds like there's a certain "keep tossing shit at the wall and see what sticks" modus operandi going, there.Yeah, you're right. jam band + no producer = the real issue

Alright, so let me start thinking about this a bit more carefully then. I doubt I'm going to get objective reviews and an an accepted authority from one member. I just don't see it.

That can be not necessarily bad depending on a variety of things, but of course, the other end of that string is where it's then necessary to have some serious objective review with at least one person capable of adult supervision, in case collective consensus isn't working, to say "OK.... this.... uh-uh, that's OUT OF THERE" and not having anybody crying about it.So there are I guess two options:

1) Take the responsibility myself as a the producer and work with them to get a better sounding record... yet denied producer credit.

or

2) Do the same damn thing yet with a producer contract.

[weedywet]

Hi All,

How do you add interest to traditional guitar sounds?


great lyrics

and a bass part not played by a guitar player

[Dave Perry]

Univibe or equivalent.

A good juicy phaser.

Roland CH-1 or some other fat sounding chorus.

Fat sounding envelope follower or wah pedal.

Rotary speaker.

Various kinds of delay, including stereo.

Octave effect.

Fuzz.

Multi layering of same guitar part.

[otek]

I like to listen to the song and come up with a part it really needs.

Then I try tracking that part with a sound that's interesting, right there and then.

The good thing about that approach is, the sound inspires the performance, making the part even more interesting.


otek

[onze_jef]

great lyrics

and a bass part not played by a guitar player

... unless that guitarplayer is also a bass player.

[qharley]

... unless that guitarplayer is also a bass player.

You mean a bass player that also plays guitar?

[MGMc]

If you have a lot of different parts to choose from you might try bringing different ones in and out of the mix.

[Tim Halligan]

I like to listen to the song and come up with a part it really needs.

Then I try tracking that part with a sound that's interesting, right there and then.

The good thing about that approach is, the sound inspires the performance, making the part even more interesting.




Tattoo this advice onto your forehead.

Cheers,
Tim

[hakimcallier]

There is some really great advice in this post. Thanks a lot guys, I swear this the Womb is a gold mine of record production gems.

[eagan]

I like to listen to the song and come up with a part it really needs.

Then I try tracking that part with a sound that's interesting, right there and then.

The good thing about that approach is, the sound inspires the performance, making the part even more interesting.



Gold.

As was already said, I see, this is essential principle kind of stuff.


JLE

[onze_jef]

You mean a bass player that also plays guitar?

nope.

[qharley]

nope.

Those are a rare breed IMHO

[AxeSlash]

nope.

And may the lord save us from failed guitarists who have picked up the bass because they thought it was "easier".

*shivers*

[otek]

... unless that guitarplayer is also a bass player.

You have to show me where you get those guys.

I certainly haven't met many.


otek

[weedywet]

when the bass just doubles the guitar parts at the octave, that's giving up

it's the road to boring

[dwoz]

it's the road to boring


Got my directions mixed up. Is the road to boring the one that passes through whinging and stuffcock? Over on the opposite side of the island from Wails, innit?

[onze_jef]

when the bass just doubles the guitar parts at the octave, that's giving up

it's the road to boring

true, but so many musicians play more then one instrument... you just have to know that a bass indeed is a different instrument and not a guitar with less strings.

[Holm]

true, but so many musicians play more then one instrument... you just have to know that a bass indeed is a different instrument and not a guitar with less strings.

Fletcher once said "The bass is a very complex instrument to master. Alot of people own basses, but there are damn few bass players in the world."

[MGMc]

I think you could say the same for any instrument.

[Bob Olhsson]

when the bass just doubles the guitar parts at the octave, that's giving up

it's the road to boringTraditionally when you hear that being effective, a guitar is doubling the bass and not the other way around.

I've often defined "commercial music" as being really easy to learn but NOT boring. One or the other is easy. Both at the same time is hard.

[ManRoom Studio]

I think what adds interest to distorted guitars is contrast. That is, something clean and clear - or distinctly different timbres preceding and/or following the distortion. As far as a guitar sounds go, distortion is already pretty interesting compared to the untreated guitar. The problem is that we've heard it for decades, and quite frankly, it's become commonplace to the point of boring. Also, it kind of obscures other effects or joins with them to make mud if we're not careful - so there's not a whole lot of toys you can add to it past a certain point.

Perhaps a more interesting sound would be something other than distortion, or to use it sparingly as contrast to other sounds. Just sayin'.

The ManRoom

[Damage, Inc.]

Fletcher once said "The bass is a very complex instrument to master. Alot of people own basses, but there are damn few bass players in the world."

No doubt, that. As a guitarist, I can find any note on a bass, but I don't have a great feel for the instrument, and I wouldn't ever call myself a bass player. I wouldn't call myself a singer either for the same reason. Bass has a different function than guitar, and is a different instrument, and the ability to play one does not necessarily translate to the other.

[Cary Chilton]

when the bass just doubles the guitar parts at the octave, that's giving up

it's the road to boring

yep! Sometimes it is necessary for the SONG, but interesting music imo, means freedom of all instruments within the realm of taste...

To the OP, solid performances. Pete Thorn doubling his solo's as well as he does and his rhythm playing just as skillful takes his guitar to the best place one could hope for. Very enjoyable to listen to..

Guitar picks are another world to explore, imo. I think I have everthing out there. They all feel and sound different. The feel of one pick might work great with one guitar or a different string gauge. However, there might be a compromise on the character of the attack your hoping for. Ultex's, Jazz XL III reds feel and sound different than the blacks, Tortex purple's 1.14mm sound and feel slightly different than the black tortex 1.14mm and the white wedge 1.14mm tortexs also sound and respond different... all are TORTEX 1.14 from the same company-how fucked is that?---- Nylon's, cellulose, gator grips, stubby's, metacarbon's etc.... Any of which can sound different and or feel different just by using a lighter or heavier gauge -same material.... A lighter /heavier gauge might make the right pick for that guitar, even more articulate etc... This is the kind of shit I obsess about.... hehe It all makes a difference unless of course, you don't use a pick! ;) Then we can talk about filing nails and nail hardeners or Lee's press on nails? hehe

[AxeSlash]

Something that cropped up in a recent project; different flavours of distortion is also something to look into. I'm not talking about layering; more in terms of arrangement. E.g. different dirt for the verse vs the chorus. EQ'd differently as well. Or even with varying amounts of phaseyness - I've heard stuff that (strangely) benefits from quite a comb-filtery sound in the verse, and then that's thrown out of the window for a much more solid, smooth sound in the chorus.

Or a classic one is if you have a part that is done with a lightish distortion, try doing it with two tracks - one of full-on distortion (mixed quite low), and one with a clean sound (usually a sort of 'chimey' sound works well here). This can yield more interest than a straight "light distortion" part can. Only problem is, you gotta have a player who can adapt a clean part to distortion (or vice versa) very well, which is not always as easy as it sounds. In fact, with some parts it just can't be done effectively. But it's another colour on your pallette to fuck about with.

Oh, and wah. Both typical wah pedal stuff, and also the sort of wah effect you can get by just twisting a peak in a good EQ up and down with the music (they're very different beasts). That requires a real artistic flair (but then again if you ain't got that you probably shouldn't be in this business) and a good sense of whether you've overdone it or underdone it.

Fucking around treating each delay repeat differently is something I've been meaning to piss around with for a while but have never got around to, but I've heard it used to good effect. E.g. each tap might have a progressively higher highpass or something. I think that really requires the right sort of material to get right though. Still, strings to your bow etc.

YMMV.

[Strat+AC30]

I've often defined "commercial music" as being really easy to learn but NOT boring. One or the other is easy. Both at the same time is hard.Very cool. I'm stealing this saying, if that's alright.

[Smileyblue]

Think outside the box!

Is there anything set in stone to say that parts that don't sound stellar as guitar parts could not become another instrument with the magic of ESX instruments?

Would this not add interest? Or it may even just anchor the mix and give it more GLUE! Be creative...that's what mixing is about. You just have to make it genre appropriate.

This is a technique I have seen used many times and it really can work great.