Annoying hiss

[jujumies]

Hi,

I have tried to get this worlds most amazing guitar tone for my next album without any success. I'm trying to achieve this aggressive, tight distorted guitar (foo fighters, system of a down, etc. etc). Currently I have Fender stratocaster (with minihumbucker)-->mesa boogie mark 3---> bogner uberchall.

I always get this fucking annoying hiss that is worst 1,5khz-3,5khz. Its constantly there and pisses me off. Have you any idea what might me the problem.

I attached a sample of the recorded guitar. Sennheiser 906 and 421.

Simo Orpana

[iCombs]

Hi,

I have tried to get this worlds most amazing guitar tone for my next album without any success. I'm trying to achieve this aggressive, tight distorted guitar (foo fighters, system of a down, etc. etc). Currently I have Fender stratocaster (with minihumbucker)-->mesa boogie mark 3---> bogner uberchall.

I always get this fucking annoying hiss that is worst 1,5khz-3,5khz. Its constantly there and pisses me off. Have you any idea what might me the problem.

I attached a sample of the recorded guitar. Sennheiser 906 and 421.

Simo Orpana

Hey Simo! Welcome to the Womb!

Honestly...I don't hear that big a problem...I think there's some sort of murk going on in this track because of where the mics are placed (or perhaps how they're combing when they're combined).

Start with one of those mics (if I were there, I'd use the 906 on the cab and use the 421 as a hammer as I'm not a big 421 fan, personally. Though I know there are many who love them and make fine recordings with them) and start moving it around until it sounds right...it sounds like you've got the amp dialed in well so it SHOULD just be a matter of capturing that.

Also...if you're using an Uberschall cabinet, you should really be picky about WHICH speaker you mic...it has 2 different kinds of speakers in it which should sound really different when you mic them...if I remember correctly, the upper left and lower right speakers should be the Vintage 30's, which--IMO--are the better sounding speakers in that cabinet.

The last thing is the mics you chose do have a good-sized rise in that 2k-esque area...perhaps a different mic choice would help as well.

[weedywet]

if you take a high end/low pass filter and sweep it down to roll off everything above 3k (let alone 1.5k) you think you'll hear HISS?

[iCombs]

if you take a high end/low pass filter and sweep it down to roll off everything above 3k (let alone 1.5k) you think you'll hear HISS?

It's really more of a "CHCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHH."

[AxeSlash]

By "hiss" do you mean a noise floor?

If so there could be a number of culprits; noisy guitar circuitry, old/knackered amp components, too much gain, crap cable, the list goes on.

Just double checking - you mention no pedals in the chain, is that definitely the case? Pedals in front of the amp are usually the first port of call when trying to lose a noise floor in a guitar rig. Even if it's just a tuner, try leaving it outta the chain completely (i.e. remove the damn thing, don't just put it in bypass).

I haven't listened to the clip, but if it's a high-gain sound you're after, there WILL be a very audible noise floor.

But then again, in my not-so-fucking-humble opinion, if you're at a stage where the noise floor is a problem as a result of gain, you've either got the wrong amp for the job, or if you HAVE got the right amp, your sound is gonna be WAY too highly gained anyway, leading to mud and shit. If I had a fucking penny for every joker that turned up at my place with a 5150 with gain cranked right the fuck up...then they wonder why it sounds like soup...

Anyway, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that because you're on this forum and seem to know your shit that this isn't the case. First thing I'd try would be to lose any pedals and replace the cable. After that see if you can borrow another MkIII from somewhere and see if the problem goes away.

[Calvin]

I listened to the track, and I'm hearing something very murky and indistinct. Reminds me of recordings I might have made ages ago to a cheap 4 track cassette deck using who-knows-what mic in a horrible room. Are we hearing the track as it came in to the daw from the mic? Or, have you processed the track in any way, even if it's just EQ or whatever? May I ask what kind of mic pres are being used? Shouldn't make a huge difference, as long as something of reasonable quality is used.

The first thing I'd do is turn down the gain. Make sure you love the sound you're hearing in the room. Then, move the mics around until you hear something great. Push record. Shouldn't be more difficult than that.

[otek]

I don't know if we mean the same thing by "hiss", but to me hiss means any kind of thermal noise coming out of the amp when you're NOT playing. So I cannot really tell from the clip since the guitar is constantly playing.

If, on the other hand, by "hiss" you are referring to something that's audible in the guitar's tone - meaning a component of the distortion sound - it's a different can of worms altogether, although I am not hearing much of what I would call "hiss" in that respect either because the guitar sound is quite dark and low-mid oriented.

Ignoring for a moment or disparate takes on descriptive nomenclature, the first thing that occurs to me is that the mic or mics were not placed the way I would have, given the sound you're after and what I am guessing the amp actually sounds like.


My suggestion? SIMPLIFY.

Start out with ONE mic.

Get the amp to sound good in the room. Maybe even start out with the tone controls at a neutral setting and see if there is a huge difference between what the amp does naturally and the way you hear it in the room. Also, be VERY mindful of the volume. The volume setting can many times make MUCH more of a difference than tone control settings. Volume differences affect cabinet involvement (how the cabinet resonates with the speaker vibration) and is a vital part of your amp's sound.

Move the mic around among the speakers and pick the one that sounds the best. It is not always what you MIGHT think (or have read somewhere).

Now move the mic around the speaker cone. Notice how the sound changes from bright to dark depending on where you're at. Try to find a spot where you hear a clean, clear balance of tones. There's often a point where you, for lack of a better term, start hearing the one mono mic as more "3-D" - there is an actual depth to it, and not just in terms of frequencies but in terms of front-to-back perspective.

The other part of getting the sounds you mentioned is arrangement.

For heavy rhythm guitar sounds, try doubling the part once. Try to get the double INDISTINGUISHABLE rhythmically to the original. Pan the original and double hard left and right. Try to blend your guitar parts in interesting combinations - play different positions, chord inversions, play counter-rhythms. A huge part of the guitar sounds of Foo Fighters and SOAD is in clever arrangements.

For example, one thing you often hear is a pure octave melody played through the heavy chords (i.e. playing say, a G on the third fret of the E-string and simultaneously another G an octave above on the D-string, same rhythm as the regular guitar). This can be a counter-melody, a harmony to the chord root note, the root itself, or any combination thereof. I usually let it play some kind of harmony that accentuates the vocal melody, or uses notes that are implied in the chord changes but not played in the regular rhythm guitars (e.g. the regular rhythm guitars might contain the pure-sounding intervals like octaves and fifths, while the octave melody plays major or minor thirds, ninths, major sevenths, etc.).


otek

[iCombs]

For example, one thing you often hear is a pure octave melody played through the heavy chords (i.e. playing say, a G on the third fret of the E-string and simultaneously another G an octave above on the D-string, same rhythm as the regular guitar). This can be a counter-melody, a harmony to the chord root note, the root itself, or any combination thereof. I usually let it play some kind of harmony that accentuates the vocal melody, or uses notes that are implied in the chord changes but not played in the regular rhythm guitars (e.g. the regular rhythm guitars might contain the pure-sounding intervals like octaves and fifths, while the octave melody plays major or minor thirds, ninths, major sevenths, etc.).

Quoted for emphasis.

Applies in so many forms of rock music.

Can make guitar arrangements sound MASSIVE.

[Mo Facta]

Sounds like a high gain sound to me. Don't hear any 'hiss', per say, because it's playing constantly, but I'm getting that annoying psssssssssss, 3.8kHz thing in the upper mid range.

Granted, I'm on my laptop and listened off of the built in speakers, but honestly, it doesn't sound all that bad to me. I didn't get any murk, but that is probably the speakers.

otek mentioned some pertinent points. Doubling your rythym verbatim and panning them L and R can help for the genres of music you mentioned you're trying to achieve. That technique can move the guitars out of the center to make room for the vocals and other center sounds and supply you with that wall of guitar sound that you're after. Juxtaposing complementing parts on either side of L and R is also effective for intermediary parts in the arrangement where double tracked rhythm is not necessary. Play around. You've got a good start there, IMO.

Other than that, I'm still not hearing any hiss in that clip.

Cheers :)

[jujumies]

ok... this forum seems like decent place...

Well some answers to questions:

-No pedals whatsoever. Guitar plugged straight to amp.
-Clip recorded straight to rme ff800 and clip has no processing. I have ssl, neve, api preamps but the problems exist there as well...
-Yes I guess the "hiss" was bad choice of words. Its more of a constant irritating upper mid range issue. The sound just don't feel pure in the right way. To me there is something terrible wrong. Now even close to the sound I would accept to my album. I'm going today to studio to crank it up again...

"It's really more of a "CHCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHH." This is true. The mid range has something evil going on -and not in the good way....


Some really good points here. I'm gonna try mic placement again, but I'm quite sure its in the signal chain somewhere (the harsh upper mid range) I'm just not sure where...

Simo

[jujumies]

another thing that came to my mind is that the bottom from 50hz-200hz is totally uncontrolled and it brings this WHOOOAM which is also there all the time... In mark 3 I have bass set to 1 out of ten...:) and eq of the mark 3 is also cutting 80hz and 200hz...

How the hell I get so much bass? This setup is fairly new to me and just seems like something is really not right here... I have been able to record good sounding guitars (at least to me) previously but now I'm recording shit...

Simo

[Mo Facta]

-Yes I guess the "hiss" was bad choice of words. Its more of a constant irritating upper mid range issue. The sound just don't feel pure in the right way. To me there is something terrible wrong. Now even close to the sound I would accept to my album. I'm going today to studio to crank it up again...

"It's really more of a "CHCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHH." This is true. The mid range has something evil going on -and not in the good way....


You are experiencing common problems when recording high gain guitars and the solutions do not always present themselves instantly. A lot of the low end problem you claim you're getting, for example, could be due to room resonances. High volumes will only exacerbate it, too. Have someone play, walk the room and find a spot where there is less bass. It's not difficult really, and you don't need to be an acoustic scientist to hear it.

How did you mic the cab, by the way?

Forgive me if you know all this already, but obviously on-axis positions at the center of the cone will capture more of the upper mid range "bite", as opposed to off axis positions, which mellow out the tone accordingly. The angle of the mic to the axis of the speaker is an area of exploration and one method of approach I've found to tame the upper midrange with out it becoming too muted. In other words, you can have the mic at the center of the speaker where all the top end definition is going on but change the angle of incidence of the air on the diaphragm of the microphone by angling it. Also, backing off the cab a little will roll off the proximity effect and possibly add a bit of ambience or air to the sound, depending on your room. That's if you even need it. I find a lot of my guitar cab micing being quite close more often than not these days.

And again, yes. Stay simple. Start with one mic at first and focus more on your playing than the technicalities of the recording.

Cheers :)

[jujumies]

Not offended any way by your suggestions... thats why I'm here Good advises by the way and now when you mentioned the room resonances I feel like moron, because that very well might be the problem. I'm demoing the guitar in a none treated room. We are recording the actual parts for the album in a proper studio but for now I'm working the basic sounds in this crabby room... have to check that out. I was too concentrated with the close micing when of course the room affect as well even though I'm close miking...

I'm gonna work as long as it takes to get that kick ass sound. When I'll get that I will also post it here... any help until that divine sound will be greatly appreciated.

Chek out some pictures of the micing of the cabinet. By the way the K2 that is on picture was not included in that sample I posted earlier...

Simo



You are experiencing common problems when recording high gain guitars and the solutions do not always present themselves instantly. A lot of the low end problem you claim you're getting, for example, could be due to room resonances. High volumes will only exacerbate it, too. Have someone play, walk the room and find a spot where there is less bass. It's not difficult really, and you don't need to be an acoustic scientist to hear it.

How did you mic the cab, by the way?

Forgive me if you know all this already, but obviously on-axis positions at the center of the cone will capture more of the upper mid range "bite", as opposed to off axis positions, which mellow out the tone accordingly. The angle of the mic to the axis of the speaker is an area of exploration and one method of approach I've found to tame the upper midrange with out it becoming too muted. In other words, you can have the mic at the center of the speaker where all the top end definition is going on but change the angle of incidence of the air on the diaphragm of the microphone by angling it. Also, backing off the cab a little will roll off the proximity effect and possibly add a bit of ambience or air to the sound, depending on your room. That's if you even need it. I find a lot of my guitar cab micing being quite close more often than not these days.

And again, yes. Stay simple. Start with one mic at first and focus more on your playing than the technicalities of the recording.

Cheers :)

[onze_jef]

Our absolute expert on distorted guitars is Slipperman.

Read all his posts on this subject. Not only is he an expert, he 's also very entertaining to read.

here 's an overview on those posts:

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html







I 'm sure you will like this forum, tons and tons of really great advice here.

[iCombs]

Well...I can tell you that part of the problem is that you're mics are all on one of the G12M-75's that are in that Bogner cab...and those are...well...let's just say CHALLENGING in otherwise normal circumstances.

Start with the speaker immediately to that speaker's left...and start with 1 mic.

[jujumies]

I indeed tried it but I just liked the one I miked better...

I'm demoing the amp tomorrow again and I'll try your advices... I'll get back to you with a sample how it went... I just got to get it tighter..

Simo



Well...I can tell you that part of the problem is that you're mics are all on one of the G12M-75's that are in that Bogner cab...and those are...well...let's just say CHALLENGING in otherwise normal circumstances.

Start with the speaker immediately to that speaker's left...and start with 1 mic.

[Slipperman]

First things first.

Is the EXACT sound you want to hear coming out of the amp in the room?

Is it even CLOSE to the correct sound in the room?

SM.

[jujumies]

To be honest the sound is not perfect in the room. So answer to your question -no it is not...:) I mean the sound really sounds healthy but there could be something more to it if we are talking about hard shit but then we come to the right equipment conversations etc. etc.... but I'm pretty sure that the sound I've dialed is all this amp can deliver. Actually the texture and the sound in general quite good in that sample also but there is so much shit around it Its hard to get it work in the mix... I mean the sound that Im getting to tape is not healthy...

SImo


First things first.

Is the EXACT sound you want to hear coming out of the amp in the room?

Is it even CLOSE to the correct sound in the room?

SM.

[jujumies]

and now when you asked.. no its now even close to the sound in the room. I don't get that punch it has at all... somehow the sound is actually really different when recorded that it is in the room... Well its nothing new its different but somehow I just cannot capture the good qualities... only able to capture the shit... well I guess I could start doing business with that..

Simo


First things first.

Is the EXACT sound you want to hear coming out of the amp in the room?

Is it even CLOSE to the correct sound in the room?

SM.

[otek]

To me, it sounds too close miked for the room to have THAT much impact on the sound.

Your mics don't appear to be in any particularly awkward spot either.

And since both you and I seem to agree the sound is bassy and dark, I am beginning to wonder if you, in your quest for less "hiss", have cut an inordinate amount of highs and high mids with the amp's EQ?

In other words, not "too much bass" but "too little highs"? What are your settings on the Mesa?


otek

[Molly's Lips]

"It's really more of a "CHCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHH." This is true. The mid range has something evil going on -and not in the good way....
Check that none of the preamp tubes are overly microphonic. Tap on them gently with a pencil or something and see how long they ring.

[AxeSlash]

off axis positions, which mellow out the tone accordingly.

And are usually prone to more comb filtery stuff. Try to set yourself up an objective comparison - try it on axis with an appropriate EQ cut around the harsher areas, vs an off axis without the cut. I've lost count of the number of times I've thought that off-axis sounded better in tracking, only to hate the comby shit it introduced later on in mix. This is not always the case though; with something as complex as the movement of the air in the immediate vicinity of the cone, there is no magic 'nice sounding' place. I just find on-axis to be a higher yield system. I'd rather use one broad EQ stroke to tame the harshness that comes from on-axis than multiple narrow EQs to try and reduce phasey artifacts.

The angle of the mic to the axis of the speaker is an area of exploration and one method of approach I've found to tame the upper midrange with out it becoming too muted. In other words, you can have the mic at the center of the speaker where all the top end definition is going on but change the angle of incidence of the air on the diaphragm of the microphone by angling it. Also, backing off the cab a little will roll off the proximity effect and possibly add a bit of ambience or air to the sound, depending on your room.

Again, all of these things, while being good advice, are also prone to introducing comb filteriness or other phase problems if you're not careful. Again, try to set yourself up an objective comparison so that your perception is not skewed by the broader changes in frequency content. If there's one thing I've learned about high-gain guitar recording, it's that generally speaking you're after a smooth (but shaped) frequency response.

This, of course, is not always the case, but as a rule, IMO it stands.

And yeah, most guitar cabs DO have a peak somewhere in the high mid. For Celestion-loaded stuff it tends to sit somewhere around 2-3K, sometimes lower or higher for different makes. It seems that no amp manufacturer has bothered to do anything about it, thus it's left to us to sort it out with an EQ or mic choice/placement.


So the next suggestion is mic choice; have you got a 57 you can chuck up against it? IMO if you really struggle to get a good sound out of an amp with a single 57 on-axis with an EQ cut where the harshness lives, something is VERY wrong with the sound leaving the amp. In that case you're looking at changing amp settings, changing amp, changing cabinet, changing the goddamn guitar/pickups, changing the fucking PICK (yes, it makes a difference - MUCH bigger than you would expect), changing how it is being played (i.e. player's technique, particularly their picking angle), or even changing the player if it goes that far and you have that option (Aardvark?!?).

I still haven't listened to the clip yet (on the laptop at the mo and it's futile trying to do anything on these shitty speakers), but from your pics I would say that if you're using any more than one of those mics you WILL get phase issues that will need resolving with track slipping/delaying, especially if that LDC is in play.

Also, I'm hoping that you're not making the typical mistake most people make when dialling in a guitar sound on the amp. I'm hoping that you ARE getting your head down to where the speakers are and dialling in the sound THERE, rather than e.g. 3 metres away from the damn thing, or worse, stood up right next to it so it's firing into your legs. Yes, it's fucking loud and may hurt your ears (do it in short bursts and at lower volume to start with to prevent any serious damage), but it's the only way for YOU to hear what the MIC will be hearing.

And as you've noticed, yeah, don't underestimate reflections, EVEN WHEN CLOSE-MICCING. I've had that bite me in the ass more than once. There was a particular wall in my old room that had an unfortunate habit of fucking up close micced guitar cabs within 2' of it. Yes, 2 fucking feet away. I didn't believe it either until we moved the cab and things suddenly cleared up.

[otek]

I almost always go straight in with the mic (i.e. 90 degrees to the grille) and I typically track electric guitars without EQ.

With a little bit of work, you can find a spot which doesn't give you any problematic comb filtering and still gives you a nice tonal balance.

I will say that comb filtering is probably the main cause for steady-state "hissing" or "whooshing" artifacts on distorted guitar.


otek

[jujumies]

Hi...

Today I wanked with my setup for several hours and I must say that I got significantly better results... thanks to you. Check out the sample I attached. No processing. Just 906 / 57 / 421 blended evenly.

I'm still not happy with the sound..:) Could be also because of the setup I have. But anyway thanks to for the advises etc.. They were really helpful.

By the way one thing that really improved the sound was replacing few of the preamp tubes...

Simo

tomorrow the wanking continues...

[jujumies]

Its still like shit... its really a shitty sound that I posted here... I just cannot get the sound I want- Not even fucking close...

Simo

[otek]

I just cannot get the sound I want- Not even fucking close...

It might help if you gave us more to work with. I have asked you several questions to help me get a better idea of what leads up to this, but so far you haven't answered them.


otek

[Comte de St Germain]

MK III Mesa upper mid bump is part of what you're hearing. I'm gonna go on record that MKIII Mesas are my least favorite beasts to record.

Yep, I'm blaming the gear which as most can attest is something I don't do.


Those amps are brittle, boomy, hard to dial in unless you're going for that early 90s sterile road dog bar band growl that pretty much played itself out.


Years ago i did a session with a MKIII where the optimum mic position was 6" out from the cabinet and 6" over to the right of it with the mic facing the wall behind it.


It still sucked a male camels ass but was useable enough that the guitarist didn't notice it was blended with another amp of better breeding stock.

[meLoCo_go]

To me the clip sounds like the speakers are not "breaking up" enough. Does the tone improve if you raise master volume?
Are speakers new?

[Ein Mangfaldig Kar]

Not that I know your setup (exept the mics), but it sounds constrained, and still murky, but not full in the low end. Im missing some of the power and omphff I'd expect to get from hat kind of amp...

What are yor setings on the amp, are you happy with the sound in the room playing the song?

I would either like to hear some snippet of the song, or a well composed riff utilizing the techniques used in your song. just to get an oppinion about it.
But that might just be me.

I could also just multiquote Slippy, Otek, and the others posting here...

[jujumies]

Hi,

By the way thanks for the effort you guys are doing... and sorry if I haven't give enough info. I will give more info and answers here.

I have tried to dial several (like hundreds) of different setting and I just cannot get the punch and the feeling for the sound. I know its there and I like the sound veru much ( you know the timbre and the feeling) but the sound I'm recording is just too muddy, shitty and pisses me of..:)

Settings I have in mesa... well I've tried many different settings varying from having bass in 1 to bass in 5 and cutting all the highs to boosting highs, today I actually realized few new things and I must say that amp (mark 3) is bu far the haredst and most versatile amp to dial. the sound changes so dramatically when just touching one knob. But for the settings I've tried there are so many different settings but here is few:

Vol1 treble bass mid mast 1 leaddrive leadmaster presence
2 5 3 5 7 7 10 3

Vol1 treble bass mid mast 1 leaddrive leadmaster presence
7 1,5 1,5 2 4 8 10 5


I attached again sample from today.... 906 & 421. Also picture of the setup attached. Actually when I mixed a bit that sound I got it working very well in the mix but I just don't feel comfortable with recording sound that is not there... you no "fix it in the mix"... doesn't work for me. And I know the massive amount of recording that is ahead so I want to get this working like dream. What I'm missing still is the "whoah" -effect. I haven't had it' The sound that I record is decent even if that...

Its too murky, lacks bottom impact, doesn't command like it should... but I like to fuzzish tone it has... I know its there... I've been mixing a lot for clients and then working with this shitty guitar sound and I feel that my ears are also getting "blind" to what I'm doing. I got to take a break for few days and start all over again.

Check out few clips and picture

Simo " the guy with the shitty guitar sound"

[meLoCo_go]

What is the wattage rating of the amp and cab?
Once again, fuzzi sounds like speakers are not working hard enough. Egtr sample 3 is slightly better in that respect.

[jujumies]

Mark 3 is 15/75 wattage amp... so there is this switch you can use to select the power eather 15 wattage of A power or 75 wattage simull class... I use that 75 wattage setup... I don't know is it enough for that bogner uberchall cab but I can tell you its loud as hell!

I didn't find the info for that bogner cab...there is 2x celestion vintage 30's and 2xG12T75's in it...

But yes its loud as hell... no way you can even imagine of being in front of it...

But somehow what you are saying makes sense because I just can't get it bumping like I want it... Like hearing the lements moving... that clip is horrible. Fucking horrible shit.

Simo

[meLoCo_go]

Well, it is not horrible as I've heard much worser than that.

Is there a way for you to get other cab?
Or maybe wire only two speakers?

[otek]

I don't have a lot of experience with that particular amp, but my instinct if you have to try so hard and still don't get a sound you like, is to completely change the setup.


otek

[jujumies]

I begin to believe that this is the case... there is just something in this amp that I really like also... but I cannot get it working to the tape -strange to me... I have recorded for years now and always got good results if I like the sound that I'm working with but somehow now I'm in a corner with this situation...:) Sounds like fatal situation...

I guess I gave to try to find another amp for the job... I'm gonna have a few more shots and then I'm done...

Simo


I don't have a lot of experience with that particular amp, but my instinct if you have to try so hard and still don't get a sound you like, is to completely change the setup.


otek

[jujumies]

Last night I did some research and I found several treads similar to mine... e.g. from gearslutz. Guys trying to get mark 3 shine to the tape and loosing their minds when its not happening...

Some guys even said its one of the hardest amp to record... I don't know about this but I've recorded every fucking amp there is broadly in use and this one is by far the hardest or now I can finally say it -shittiest. I'm gonna sell it...

Simo

[iCombs]

I recorded a Mark III 2 days ago and had no trouble with it. I'll put up a clip when I get to the studio today.

[Mo Facta]

And are usually prone to more comb filtery stuff.

A good point that I failed to mention. But are you talking about off-axis positions at 90 degrees to the speaker? I don't really see how these common positions are going to result in a comb filtered sound.

Again, all of these things, while being good advice, are also prone to introducing comb filteriness or other phase problems if you're not careful.

Is that AES-approved, technical nomenclature? Maybe Darth Fader can confirm that. :lol:

But yes, comb filteriness is distorted guitar's greatest enemy. I also realise that it is a result of the wavefronts hitting the diaphragm at different times, based on the angle. And there's no way to get it out, once it's in. I'm not really talking about huge angles here, though. Just enough to dampen the upper midrange a little. You gotta listen, after all, right? Also, I've found that if you keep the angled mic aimed at the voice coil with an according distance, it can help keep the integrity of the tone.

A bit of theory discussion.

Since sound is pretty much concentric and disperses in a circular pattern at 360 degrees (I realise there are some directional properties to sound eminating from a guitar cab), surely if a mic is angled towards the point source, i.e. the voice coil of the speaker, then surely it would be receiving a wavefront perpendicular to the diaphragm, provided that the angle and distance is correct?

otek? bob? Slippy?

Cheers :)

[meLoCo_go]

Problem is, the diffuser of a speaker (umm, speaker cone) is a secondary source of sound. Since the speed of sound in solids is far greater than in air, you may view the whole speaker assembly (and even a cab to a degree) as a sound source (with different filtering when you move away from the center of the speaker). So there always would be a very complex filtering happening at the point of the mic.
Placing mic dead center simplifies things as all equivalent "radial" points are at least equidistant from the mics (not sure if I can describe what I mean without a picture, but I don't have time to draw it right now).
Angling mic is adding effect of it's pick-up pattern to the things.
Anyway, the point I make is there always would be a complex filtering happening when you place a mic in close proximity to the 12" speaker.

[Brendo]

Is the cab secondhand? Perhaps the previous owner replaced one speaker with a Vuvuzela.

[otek]

Since the speed of sound in solids is far greater than in air, you may view the whole speaker assembly (and even a cab to a degree) as a sound source (with different filtering when you move away from the center of the speaker). So there always would be a very complex filtering happening at the point of the mic.

Not to mention the fact that the speaker itself is essentially a parabola, which focuses different frequency energies in different vectors.


otek

[jujumies]

Not second hand...



Is the cab secondhand? Perhaps the previous owner replaced one speaker with a Vuvuzela.

[Mo Facta]

Is the cab secondhand? Perhaps the previous owner replaced one speaker with a Vuvuzela.

Har di har har. :vuvu:

:lol:

And, Loco and otek, good insight indeed into this topic.

Also, I guess if you're dealing with a 4x12 you've now got FOUR parabolas working in unison which also brings a horseload of variables to the table when you start pulling the mic further away.

There's obviously no quick and easy perspective on this and all you can do is experiment and listen.

Cheers :)

[meLoCo_go]

There's obviously no quick and easy perspective on this and all you can do is experiment and listen.

I guess which is the morals of what Slippy tells us in his monstrous GFH thread.

[Mo Facta]

I guess which is the morals of what Slippy tells us in his monstrous GFH thread.

That thread is fucking epic. You laugh, you cry, you get angry. It's rollercoaster techni-smut at it's finest.

Cheers :)

[jujumies]

Would be really interesting to hear it... and alo know a bit about setup and settings of the amp...

But anyway there are like 5 different models of mark 3 and all of them apparently sound different...

Simo


I recorded a Mark III 2 days ago and had no trouble with it. I'll put up a clip when I get to the studio today.

[otek]

Would be really interesting to hear it... and alo know a bit about setup and settings of the amp..

I think in the end it really comes down to knowing what an amp has to sound like close up in order to sound good in the third row - or on tape, for that matter.


otek

[onze_jef]

jujumies, I assume you have some time since you never mentionned any pressure.

I also assume you can borrow some amps and cabs?

If so, try some combinations! And if possible, have the owners of the amps with you.

I had a Dual Rectifier (2 channel, 100W) once and it took me quite some time (weeks of playing that thing) to understand that amp. I have more then once tweeked someones Dual Rectifier and they were stunned about how they sounded after changing the bold/spongy setting, the rectifier setting and the gain/EQ/master volume.

Nowadays I prefer simpler (one trick pony) amps, but I know some of the more sophisticated amps really need some experience and tweeking. Once you know them, you easily find their sweet spots.

Blabla... you 'll get there.

[iCombs]

Would be really interesting to hear it... and alo know a bit about setup and settings of the amp...

But anyway there are like 5 different models of mark 3 and all of them apparently sound different...

Simo

Here you go. 57 and a 906 (set flat) and no EQ to input. Les Paul. Gain up about halfway and a Rat distortion into the front end for a little extra goosing and then into a Carvin Legacy 4x12 with Greenbacks. It's a little cranky on top, but nothing that I couldn't mix with...I will say that I like the Greenbacks with the MKIII because they help keep that presence range from getting really beamy and harsh sounding.

The Rat (could've used a Tube Screamer as well, but liked the Rat better because it didn't sound as pokey) helps as well because it seems to suck a little bottom end out on the way into the head and makes it feel a little quicker and helps tame some of the bloat that this head is DEFINITELY capable of.

Also...I would probably end up using just one of these mics at mix if given both on separate tracks...there's something very cohesive and singular sounding about one well-placed mic that gives the guitars a focus that I like. FWIW...the way I had these set up, it'd probably be the 906.

[jujumies]

ok... after listening to your samples I can tell that I'm doing a bad job with my amp... your samples sounded really good.

Can you share more about the amp setting etc etc...

Simo



QUOTE=iCombs;268669]Here you go. 57 and a 906 (set flat) and no EQ to input. Les Paul. Gain up about halfway and a Rat distortion into the front end for a little extra goosing and then into a Carvin Legacy 4x12 with Greenbacks. It's a little cranky on top, but nothing that I couldn't mix with...I will say that I like the Greenbacks with the MKIII because they help keep that presence range from getting really beamy and harsh sounding.

The Rat (could've used a Tube Screamer as well, but liked the Rat better because it didn't sound as pokey) helps as well because it seems to suck a little bottom end out on the way into the head and makes it feel a little quicker and helps tame some of the bloat that this head is DEFINITELY capable of.

Also...I would probably end up using just one of these mics at mix if given both on separate tracks...there's something very cohesive and singular sounding about one well-placed mic that gives the guitars a focus that I like. FWIW...the way I had these set up, it'd probably be the 906.[/QUOTE]

[jujumies]

Today I went back there like a man... I said to myself that you fucking pussy is that all you can do... Today I got best results so far... Check out the sample. Its beginning to sound like a Egtr...

Too shame its still something that I have to eq quite a bit.. in order to sit in the mix... but getting there..

Simo

[iCombs]

Yep...that's getting a ton better.

I honestly can't remember how I had the head set up...I know I had more presence and top on the head than you said you had...but I gave that head a bit of a twirling yesterday in a session so I have no idea how it was actually set up.

The good general stuff I can give you is this: Putting the Rat in front of the amp helped tame some of the bottom end bloating that those amps are notorious for. I thought it matched my Greenback-loaded cabinet better than my V30-loaded cabinet. I also thought the Rat did some stuff to smooth out the gain.

As far as mic placement is concerned...those mics are set up on the cabs for an EP project I'm working on...kinda bog-standard stuff. 57 and 906 about halfway between the dust cap and the edge of the speaker. I've got them running through a desk, so I do a little EQ (mostly just 2 cuts...one for pain and one for bloating), and I sum the mics to input...for this project it's been mostly 57 with a little 906 blended in for some midrange clarity.

The big deals are getting the basics right...and that probably means starting with one mic and getting it in the right spot. It sounds like you're getting closer and closer.

[jujumies]

Yep... there is still this constant "cchhooochho" going on all the time... I just cannot get rid of it...

Simo



Yep...that's getting a ton better.

I honestly can't remember how I had the head set up...I know I had more presence and top on the head than you said you had...but I gave that head a bit of a twirling yesterday in a session so I have no idea how it was actually set up.

The good general stuff I can give you is this: Putting the Rat in front of the amp helped tame some of the bottom end bloating that those amps are notorious for. I thought it matched my Greenback-loaded cabinet better than my V30-loaded cabinet. I also thought the Rat did some stuff to smooth out the gain.

As far as mic placement is concerned...those mics are set up on the cabs for an EP project I'm working on...kinda bog-standard stuff. 57 and 906 about halfway between the dust cap and the edge of the speaker. I've got them running through a desk, so I do a little EQ (mostly just 2 cuts...one for pain and one for bloating), and I sum the mics to input...for this project it's been mostly 57 with a little 906 blended in for some midrange clarity.

The big deals are getting the basics right...and that probably means starting with one mic and getting it in the right spot. It sounds like you're getting closer and closer.

[jujumies]

Ok.. I believe that for now I'm finally there. Thanks for the advices etc. they were really really helpful. Today I almost "retired" and just before packing my stuff I dialed my amp once again and did something that I hadn't try before...

My problem was always the excessive upper mid range... so I tried to keep treble setting in order (have worked with my previous amps) but this time I actually dialed treble to 9 just to fuck it up and something beautiful happened. The whole fucking machine started to distort in a brand new way the tone got totally different... I adjusted the treble and indeed it acted like a gain. I gotta tell you this amp is by far the most versatile / hard amp to dial. You can get anything out of it and everything is interconnected...

In my case the initial problem was that I didn't know how my amp behaves and how to dial good tones out of it. I found a tread where guy said that it took a month to tame this beast... I

Check out the sample. I think its really good and when the recordings are starting are we push all the proper equipment in the signal chain so I believe this is what I was looking for...

Oh and I didn't even experiment with miking so much so it will also improve the sound...

Once again thank you so much for helping me... by the way check out the first sample I posted and compare it to the latest one...:)

Simo

[nobby]

Also...I would probably end up using just one of these mics at mix if given both on separate tracks...there's something very cohesive and singular sounding about one well-placed mic that gives the guitars a focus that I like. FWIW...the way I had these set up, it'd probably be the 906.

The 906 track would probably be fine for the Incubus stuff you're using it for which is octaves and power chords. Anything more intricate than that and you'd have to throttle back on the distortion or it would be obliterated.

And personally I would just lose the pedal and turn up the gain, but that's me.

[nobby]

I had a Dual Rectifier (2 channel, 100W) once and it took me quite some time (weeks of playing that thing) to understand that amp. I have more then once tweeked someones Dual Rectifier and they were stunned about how they sounded after changing the bold/spongy setting, the rectifier setting and the gain/EQ/master volume.

Exactly. Some people are quick to dismiss an amp because they haven't taken the time to dial in good sounds ot they don't know how. And sometimes their playing just ain't all that.

"Dewd, the amp doesn't blow, you do" :vuvu:

[Brendo]

And personally I would just lose the pedal and turn up the gain, but that's me.

I don't think you get it. Here, and in the Treble Booster thread, and in my thread about pre-conditioning signals before the amp, you're saying the exact same thing which contradicts what everyone else in the threads is saying.

Putting a pedal in front seems to give you a bit more control over the bottom end going INTO the amp - the amp will still generate plenty of bottom, but having too much bass on the front end of the amp will make the sound mushy.

Pedal in front, gain on the amp down a bit - tames fizz too. A less mushy, less fizzy tone? Sure, why not, I'll take that.

Why is it that you're so against trying this, or considering it as a legitimate methodology?

[iCombs]

The 906 track would probably be fine for the Incubus stuff you're using it for which is octaves and power chords. Anything more intricate than that and you'd have to throttle back on the distortion or it would be obliterated.

And personally I would just lose the pedal and turn up the gain, but that's me.

The gain on that amp wasn't sounding great. Bloaty...slow...just sorta lame. I used a pedal. That setup gave me more juice than the lead channel with the gain on 10, and cleaner articulation. It is a tough amp to dial in, but it's not UNUSABLE, as was posited earlier.

[nobby]

Pedal in front, gain on the amp down a bit - tames fizz too. A less mushy, less fizzy tone? Sure, why not, I'll take that.

If it works for ya, why not? But the sound clips posted are already too mushy for me to use unless I plan on eliminating the use of arpeggios.

Why is it that you're so against trying this, or considering it as a legitimate methodology?

I'm not. I just don't need it and I'm not planning to buy any more overdrive pedals. I don't think putting a boss SD-1, which is the only overdrive pedal I have other than the metal zone (which I've been planning to list on ebay but it's too low on my list of priorities to get to) in front of the TSL100 is going to improve the sound.

Here's a youtube of a guy about your age playing similar music -- I apologize in advance if you are insulted by that characterization :vuvu: -- through the same model of amp I'm referring to without a pedal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzMTKrZ_SY0

[otek]

The gain on that amp wasn't sounding great. Bloaty...slow...just sorta lame.

That's typical of a scenario where the input stage doesn't get enough juice. This is why I like to use a booster and sometimes other pedals - I am guessing the Rat pedal gave you just enough crush on the input signal.

I don't think putting a boss SD-1... in front of the TSL100 is going to improve the sound.

No, most likely not. The DS-1 is not a pedal I would have chosen for those duties, and the Metal Zone is too much of a one trick pony - I can pretty much only get ONE good rhythm sound out of it.

Then again I am not a particular fan of the TSL-100 either, so sue me. :D


otek

[nobby]

I think a subpoena has to be served in person, so seeing as you're in Sweden, you have little to worry about.

I think stylistic differences are another factor. I just looked at the settings on my amp from the last time I played it and the gain on 'crunch' is set at 5 and the gain on the lead channel is on 3.

If I set it much higher, it obliterates the articulation since I switch from strumming to arpeggios not infrequently.

And, though I've been trying not to get into a flame fest, after playing electric guitar for over 40 years and having heard it all and being very jaded, the usual chugging mixed with arbitrary riffs that is the hallmark of halloween metal from hundreds of interchangeable bands bores the snot out of me.

Now excuse me while I make an appointment with my paleontologist.

[Brendo]

The DS-1 is not a pedal I would have chosen for those dutiesExcept he has an SD-1... which is a tube screamer with asymmetrical clipping, more or less.

I don't think putting a boss SD-1, which is the only overdrive pedal I have other than the metal zone (which I've been planning to list on ebay but it's too low on my list of priorities to get to) in front of the TSL100 is going to improve the sound.No? Humour me, and try this - Gain almost on lowest then set level to UNITY, and tone about halfway. Then lower the gain on the amp a touch. Voila!

It makes a HUGE difference to my DSL... I don't see why it wouldn't to your TSL.

[otek]

I think a subpoena has to be served in person, so seeing as you're in Sweden, you have little to worry about.

Plus, there's no extradition treaty between EU countries and those who enforce the death penalty. :D

I think the biggest difference here is, you're talking mainly about YOUR sound as far as I can tell, I am talking mainly about the sound of other people, i.e. my clients. I might not use a distortion pedal or booster in front of my amp either, although I have on occasion if it gets the job done.

The other thing is, a distortion pedal or booster used correctly in front of an amp is used to clean up the sound and give it more punch, not more mud. If it gets muddy you're not using it correctly (at least not in the context that's talked about here). Even though I am personally not a huge fan of the ubiquitous Tube Screamer for this kind of thing, I know it does (or should) work to that end.


otek

[nobby]

Plus, there's no extradition treaty between EU countries and those who enforce the death penalty. :D

Rats! :Mad:

I think the biggest difference here is, you're talking mainly about YOUR sound as far as I can tell, I am talking mainly about the sound of other people, i.e. my clients. I might not use a distortion pedal or booster in front of my amp either, although I have on occasion if it gets the job done.

I think you've pretty much put your finger on it. I think I left a pretty big clue in the distortion levels that have been working for me. My sound wouldn't be appropriate for most of the contemporary metal I've been hearing. And I've been using the clean channel for Jazz mainly out of laziness because one of the Fender amps would probably work better, but why bother just for practicing?

The other thing is, a distortion pedal or booster used correctly in front of an amp is used to clean up the sound and give it more punch, not more mud. If it gets muddy you're not using it correctly (at least not in the context that's talked about here). Even though I am personally not a huge fan of the ubiquitous Tube Screamer for this kind of thing, I know it does (or should) work to that end.

otek

Except he has an SD-1... which is a tube screamer with asymmetrical clipping, more or less.

No? Humour me, and try this - Gain almost on lowest then set level to UNITY, and tone about halfway. Then lower the gain on the amp a touch. Voila!

It makes a HUGE difference to my DSL... I don't see why it wouldn't to your TSL.

I'll try it when I get a chance. The place is a bit of a disaster area right now (home studio rebuild) and for starters I'd have to locate the pedal :headpalm:

There's nothing wrong with having another tool in the box. But I think I use substantially less distortion than you normally do, so it may not work for me.

I just remembered I have another distortion pedal, an electro harmonix English muff'n, but that's over at my mother's house where it gives a small practice amp a much needed boost.

[Brendo]

I boost overdrives too - with a clean boost and less gain on the amp.