Which Firewire Mixer?

[CDR]

Hello. I want to purchase a firewire mixer, but I'm not sure which one to get.

The Alesis MultiMix 16 just dropped down to $400. This is an extremely cheap price for a firewire mixer, especially with this many inputs.

Does anyone know how that mixer compares to something like the M-Audio Project Mix, which has the same amount of mic pres, but not as many ins?

Other than the M-Audio looking nicer, what would make it worth 3 times more than the Alesis?

I'd rather get the Alesis, than a Mackie Onyx..because they seem almost identical, except that you need to buy a specialty firewire card for the Onyx, and that it's more than twice as much as the Alesis.

Or is there another firewire mixer that you recommend?

Thanks.

[otek]

Does anyone know how that mixer compares to something like the M-Audio Project Mix, which has the same amount of mic pres, but not as many ins?

Other than the M-Audio looking nicer, what would make it worth 3 times more than the Alesis?

Well, the Project Mix is a completely different animal. It is a fully compatible control surface, which means that the faders and controls integrate into the software environment of your digital audio workstation. So, if you want to write fader automation into the software, or apply EQ to a channel, or tweak a compressor, you can do so from the control surface. This is a far slicker and more integrated way of working than having a separate mixer which pretty much only routes audio - hence the dramatic price difference.

I might buy something like the Alesis if I was only interested in a cheap, portable alternative for tracking - you can't really use it for mixing, because it only accepts stereo out through the firewire port (even though it does multi-channel in). Even if it had multi-channel output capabilities, the limited EQ and routing possibilities would make it difficult to mix flexibly on it. Having on-board FX may look nifty, but is really only practical for "live" applications, since again, the console only accepts stereo outs through Firewire. You could record the FX into the workstation, but with the quality of plugin FX available today, I don't really see the point.

In the case of the Project Mix, you are paying for the features and control flexibility.

Sonically, I would guess that the M-audio may be slightly better. Not a huge difference, though. You have to consider that these are rock bottom units price-wise (especially the Alesis), and people do plunk down three times the cost of the Alesis (or more) for one channel of preamp.

I'm not saying valid recordings can't be made on them, but keep your expectation realistic.


Cheers,

otek

[CDR]

Thanks a lot. You told me exactly what I was looking for.

[malice]

Thanks a lot. You told me exactly what I was looking for.

glad it helped, welcome to our humble place

malice

[Mixerpuppet]

Thanks a lot. You told me exactly what I was looking for.


Which was what? :Razz:


You wanted the Alesis all along and wanted reinforcement of that decision?


Otek, Malice,
With a budget I glanced at CDR's from another forum of $1000 to $1500 would you recommend the Alesis with only 8 mic pre's and 2 track return or the M-Audio Project Mix with 8 mic pre's, moving faders etc... (digi002 with scrub)

The Project mix allows tactile mixing for 32+ tracks where the Alesis only allows for a stereo return of the ITB mix.

Also, if you can't do multichannel summing OTB, would it be better to look at the Motu I/O as mentioned in the thread you both started on big and little DAW setups?

I ask because at first glance the Alesis and Mackies are not clear about the 2 track return limit and one might assume your getting a budget version of a Control 24.... Digicontrol etc... once you discover that at Otek noted, where do you go from there?

[otek]

You wanted the Alesis all along and wanted reinforcement of that decision?

Did I really come off sounding like I recommended the Alesis??? :Confused:

...you can't really use it for mixing....

...limited EQ and routing possibilities....

...Sonically... the M-audio may be slightly better....

...with the quality of plugin FX available today, I don't really see the point [of on-board FX]....

Either I'm stoned, or just projecting completely different things than I think. :lol:

would you recommend the Alesis with only 8 mic pre's and 2 track return or the M-Audio Project Mix with 8 mic pre's

For what I do, I would probably get the M-audio out of those two.... though I would really get something that would allow me to sum OTB, with good quality conversion.

I ask because at first glance the Alesis and Mackies are not clear about the 2 track return limit and one might assume your getting a budget version of a Control 24.... Digicontrol etc...

Now you are confusing me again..... Neither the Mackie Onyx nor the Alesis is a control surface for the DAW. The M-audio is. This has nothing to do with the limited number of returns, but with the fader control.

[CDR]

glad it helped, welcome to our humble place

malice

:Coolio:


Which was what? :Razz:




Information on mixers.




You wanted the Alesis all along and wanted reinforcement of that decision?


Absolutely incorrect, and in fact quite the opposite.




For what I do, I would probably get the M-audio out of those two.... though I would really get something that would allow me to sum OTB, with good quality conversion.



I'm quite new to the game. What exactly is "sum OTB?" Even if it is out of my price range, what on the market would you recommend?

The M-Audio seems like the absolute best choice so far.

Thanks a lot Otek.

[otek]

I'm quite new to the game. What exactly is "sum OTB?" Even if it is out of my price range, what on the market would you recommend?

Summing OTB, or "Out Of The Box" is when you perform the actual summing of the mix (i.e. the "funneling" of multiple audio tracks down to a stereo file) outside of your workstation's digital environment.

This is a highly debated issue, where some AE's consider digital summing a lossy and sonically degrading process, and others are fine with it and/or have found workarounds, such as various plugins which emulate an analog signal path.

There is a growing number of units on the market which are nothing but high grade summing amplifiers. One of the first (and still among the most popular) of these is the Dangerous 2-bus. Other units include the Neve 8816, the Innertube Sumthang, and the Vintagedesign SU-1. There are also passive units, that require two mic preamps as an output stage - Folcrom and Roll Music are both based on this principle.

Of course, you can also sum your mixes through a regular console, or even mix on one - essentially using your workstation as a tape machine.

The M-Audio seems like the absolute best choice so far.

I believe there are several similar units on the market, and they do offer you a lot of flexibility and power. Many people like having some kind of tactile surface when they mix, especially for automation purposes.


Cheers,

otek

[Mixerpuppet]

Well it looks like Im the entertainment today...

Did I really come off sounding like I recommended the Alesis??? :Confused:

I might buy something like the Alesis if I was only interested in a cheap, portable alternative for tracking

heh heh.... I thought everyone was interested in cheap portable stuff... my bad ;)


Either I'm stoned, or just projecting completely different things than I think. :lol: LOL@myself... I re-read your comments again and it was the opposite of what I read yesterday. :Uh oh:

I musta had been reading it right after hearing about Anna Nicole... :Sad:


For what I do, I would probably get the M-audio out of those two.... though I would really get something that would allow me to sum OTB, with good quality conversion. Got anything in mind other than the M-Audio?


Now you are confusing me again..... Neither the Mackie Onyx nor the Alesis is a control surface for the DAW. The M-audio is. This has nothing to do with the limited number of returns, but with the fader control.

I transferred my confusion... Sorry!

I was confused because at first glance, the Alesis doesn't tell you it's NOT a control surface like the Project Mix, Digi002 etc.

Firewire Interface with 16 out and only 2 back to the mixer? AS you said "I don't really see the point".

Just put me on ignore or beat me with a large wooden stick...

Maybe that way my head might become dislodged from my ass...

[otek]

I musta had been reading it right after hearing about Anna Nicole... :Sad:

Well, kudos to you for having a humane view on that tragedy. :Thumbsup:

As for other alternatives on the control surface, I'll get back to this during the weekend.



otek

[CDR]

I checked out the Dangerous 2-BUS, but I'm confused to how it actually connects. How can I have the benefits of firewire, and still use this? I can definitely see how this product would be beneficial, because a lot of the music I record now..does not sound the same when I play it back.. it must be losing a lot of quality.

[otek]

I checked out the Dangerous 2-BUS, but I'm confused to how it actually connects. How can I have the benefits of firewire, and still use this? I can definitely see how this product would be beneficial, because a lot of the music I record now..does not sound the same when I play it back.. it must be losing a lot of quality.


Let's talk about this.


First, when you're talking about "the benefits of Firewire", what in your opinion are those? How does Firewire solutions affect your workflow?

Second, when you're saying it doesn't sound the same, do you mean that the bounced mix sounds different from the playback of the mix right before bouncing?

Are you hearing a drastic difference, or a subtle nuance?

When I've compared digital to analog summing, the difference can be anything from very subtle to apparent - though it's usually subtle enough that most casual listeners probably wouldn't notice it at first.

In order to use a summing amp, I would recommend a minimum of 8, preferably 16 or more analog outputs from your DAW. Ideally, you'd want to have a separate out for every track of audio in the session, but this is not always practical or even possible.

You also have to take into account that a good active summing amp costs upwards of $2,000, probably even closer to three. In other words, it's maybe not the first thing you'd consider to purchase, since you're looking at upwards of eight channels of premium D/A conversion AND the actual summing box.

[CDR]

Benefits would be being able to seperate each track while recording, so I can go back and tweak with whatever I want.

For instance, if I put 8 mics on a drum kit.. after recording, I could go back and perhaps make the cymbals a little louder, or add a distortion to the floor tom. That is a huge benefit. I like to experiment with my music as much as possible, and being able to seperate each track is an enormous benefit.

I really don't even see how people can record any other way now.

But like I said, I'm very new..and perhaps there's something out there that does the same thing, maybe even better?


Right now there is somewhat of a noticable difference in sound after recording, but it only happens when I am heavily distorting.

[malice]

Benefits would be being able to seperate each track while recording, so I can go back and tweak with whatever I want.

For instance, if I put 8 mics on a drum kit.. after recording, I could go back and perhaps make the cymbals a little louder, or add a distortion to the floor tom. That is a huge benefit. I like to experiment with my music as much as possible, and being able to seperate each track is an enormous benefit.

I really don't even see how people can record any other way now.

But like I said, I'm very new..and perhaps there's something out there that does the same thing, maybe even better?


Right now there is somewhat of a noticable difference in sound after recording, but it only happens when I am heavily distorting.

I think this is confusing.

What you seem to want is a multi channel recording setup.

The confusing part is that you seem to believe that only a firewire desk could give you the hability to record several tracks at once.

This is uncorrect. You can also have a multi in/out audio interface and an analog desk.

What Otek is saying, is that some of us find that "summing" your audio tracks in the analog realm could benefit the overall quality of your mixes. This has nothing to do with multi channel recording.

For instance, you could have an 8 in card with preamps and 2 outs and do your mix ITB (in the box, with the virtual console of your digital audio workstation).

You could have also the same 8 in card with an 8 out card summed into a summing box such as the dangerous 2buss.

plenty of possibilities indeed.

malice

[CDR]

Wow, thanks a lot. Once again, exactly the info I was looking for.

Perhaps I'm going to have to start searching for a new card.. one with at least 8 inputs.

What brand of analog mixer would you recommend for this kind of setup, under $1500?

I guess while we're at it, what kind of card would you recommend?

Great help. Thanks again.

:)

[Mixerpuppet]

I don't think there are too many "Card" available with 8 individual outputs on the market but a few rack mountable boxes are available are varying prices. I've been looking at the Focusrite Sapphire (firewire) for $699 that will allow me to track from the 8 bus to the pc and return 8 back to the desk for summing. The cheapest is the M-Audio Delta 1010 which a few people use with decent results and sometimes there are the Aardvark Q10 floating around on Ebay. Otek has mentioned the Motu stuff in another thread.



On the top end of theing we start wandering to the Lavry, Apogee and Digidesign I/O for the $2000 to $3000 range for 8 I/O.

A mixdown/summing desk for $1500 puts you within reach of the used Allen and Heaths, Soundcraft "Live" consoles and Mackie 8 bus'. But Im not sure those would be that much better if at all than a ITB mix. Usually the Summing boxes are meant to emulate that older discrete desk transformer based mic pre's etc.

At this point I think workflow determines which direction to move. I know alot of folks who are hybrid and are set up to do either ITB or OTB depending on the type of music being mixed.

[otek]

What brand of analog mixer would you recommend for this kind of setup, under $1500?

I guess while we're at it, what kind of card would you recommend?


If this is all sort of leading up to you being in the market for an analog summing solution, here's my advice.


Fuhgeddaboudit.


Really. You should not be looking to invest a bundle in new gear at this point.

I mentioned the Dangerous 2-bus more as a side note to the concept of OTB mixing, not as a serious suggestion for a novice recordist.

Instead, I would recommend sitting down with Sonar, reading the manual cover to cover, scouring this forum for useful tips and reading a good book or two on basic audio terminology, the basics of time-based (reverbs, delays) and dynamic (compressors, gates).

There are plenty of forums out there who perpetuate the notion that all you need to do to improve your skills is to get more gear. This is not what you need first and foremost when you are starting out, especially not more gear that gives a rather subtle improvement per dollar spent. What you need to make things sound better, is to study the basics.

So save that money for later, when your skillset has evolved in such a way that you can make the most of your ITB recording and mixing. Who knows, you might end up taking the ITB route all the way.



Best of luck,

otek

[CDR]

Thanks mixer and otek!

I'm going get the M-Audio Project mix for now, as it seems to be exactly what I want/need. Plus I think I found a good deal on a used one, which also comes with pro tools.

Now here are a few more questions..

Should I stick with Sonar since I'm already somewhat familiar with it? Or should I use pro tools? Does one offer something that the other doesn't?

I'm going to definitely be purchasing a new soundcard within the next couple of months.. what kind of card do decent studios use that can handle so many channels? Even if these are still out of my range, I really want to know what actual studios are doing. You mentioned there aren't many cards with more than 8 outputs.. but what about inputs.. Can I get a card with 24 inputs?

And what kind of beginner books would you recommend? Like you said, an audio terminology book, a book on reverb and delay would be great, and a book on compression would be great. Or a book that covers them all. I definitely want a few books, and I'll buy them next week. If you do recommend a few books.. please tell me which one I should start on.. perhaps a book on recording digitally?

Thanks a whole lot guys!

Best forum EVER!

[otek]

I'm going get the M-Audio Project mix for now, as it seems to be exactly what I want/need. Plus I think I found a good deal on a used one, which also comes with pro tools.

Sounds good!

Should I stick with Sonar since I'm already somewhat familiar with it? Or should I use pro tools? Does one offer something that the other doesn't?

Not really - they both have their strengths and weaknesses. I'd say go ahead with Sonar if the Project Mix interfaces well with it. Though in the future, if you have the time and inclination, by all means check Pro Tools out - it's a good skill to have, because it's a very, very common platform that a lot of people use.

what kind of card do decent studios use that can handle so many channels?

"Decent studios" often use very expensive solutions - and they mostly don't come in a card format, but instead in a separate rack unit which interfaces with the DAW via a PCI card. Quality AD/DA conversion can cost several thousand dollars per channel, but if a studio is looking for a massive number of I/O (inputs/outputs), they usually go with some solution that offers 8-16 channels per unit, and then stack as many of those units as they need. Popular brands are for example Apogee, Lavry and Genex.

Can I get a card with 24 inputs?

Yes you can, but again, it's not gonna be cheap, and you really have to ask yourself, do you really need that many inputs, and why?

There is the MOTU 24IO (http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/24IO), which does exactly that. This is a budget unit which runs about $1400 street.

There is a thread at the top of this forum well worth checking out (http://womb.mixerman.net/showthread.php?t=889), where Malice and I basically put together two recording rigs each. These are not "dream rigs", but rather best-case, cost effective solutions for recording with quality AND budget in mind. In it, we discuss among other things the MOTU HD192, which is a 12-I/O interface with great sound quality. It is also expandable, which means that you can stack two of them together for 24 channels of digital conversion. It will cost you around 3500 dollars, though.

And what kind of beginner books would you recommend?

A book that I warmly recommend is the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook, which deals also with live sound technology, but features plenty of easy to understand explanations to just about any piece of gear.



Cheers,

otek

[Santiago]

With the $400 budget I'll say go for a Firepod. Be careful if you choose to buy a firewire console, one of the cons would be that the monitoring tends to be noisy on most consoles in that budget range.

[CDR]

Wow, thanks a bunch.

I ordered the Project Mix.. didn't turn out to be as good of a deal as it should've been. But still a good deal, and it includes pro-tools..which I see would be a great benefit to learn.

I'll read that thread you recommended right now.

[Mixerpuppet]

Congratulations CDR.

FYI..... learn to be efficient in both Sonar and ProTools especially moving in between the two to take advantage of each of thier strengths.

I use Samplitude and Vegas whereas I used to use ProTools and Cakewalk...

Have fun...

[ulysses]

There are also passive units, that require two mic preamps as an output stage - Folcrom and Roll Music are both based on this principle.

That's just one. We make the Folcrom. It's still the only passive summing device on the market. Other than the need for makeup gain of your choosing, it works exactly the same way as any other dedicated summing device. It is a fixed device, with no knobs, so you maintain the recall ability of the DAW. That's the important distinction between a "summing device" and a mixer. We've removed all the crap from the circuit that would good up what you're trying to do with the computer. After all - if not for the automation and recall ability, what's the point of even having a computer in the studio?

[otek]

That's just one. We make the Folcrom. It's still the only passive summing device on the market.

Hi Justin,

Cool of you to stop by.

I posted the above over a year ago, and have since gotten a much closer look at the Folcrom. Unfortunately, I don't always catch my own brain farts in time, and this was a case in point. Thanks for setting me straight.


Cheers,

otek

[ulysses]

No problem. And another fine gentlemen up in here just set me straight by pointing out that there actually are other passive summing devices on the market - they just happen to have the makeup gain built in. The average user might not notice the difference between such a device and its active-summing counterpart, but I should have.