Vocals fluctuate.. how do i compress?

[CDR]

Hey all. I'm very new to the recording game.. but I'm loving the hell out of it, and can easily see making it into a career.

I usually only record instruments..so when I finally had to record vocals, I was kind of floored. The singer's voice fluctuates? Who would've known. :) But how do I get these fluctuations not sounding like shit in the final mix? Is compression the answer? If so, where do I start?

I'm currently recording with Sonar 5 PE.

Any compression hints or tips would be extremely valuable. Thanks.

[jfee]

YES! Compress!

Compression will be your best friend!

Put the plugin on the track. Move the control's around until it sounds good. I get the best results when I don't pay any attention whatsover to the gain reduction meter.

GoodLuck!
j

[otek]

A good starting point for lead vocal is often a medium attack with a short release.

Ratio depends on the style of music. In pop and rock, you can usually compress pretty hard.

[malice]

Several thing to have in mind.

First, chose your compressor. the great classics are LA2A and 1176LN, you have several emulation, none will sound like the real thing, but the best is the UAD ones.

Some other plugs works well, rencomp, renvox from wave, sonalksis is great...you will have to try.

your starting point is short release, your ratio might depend on the style, it starts at 4:1 and can go up to 10:1 wich is already limiting.

As, otek said, attack time will be somwhere in the middle range (whatever that means given that it might differ greatly from one comp to another) then you should set the threshold so that you don't squash the living shit out of the track.

Have in mind that once overdid, you won't save a track if it is too much compressed, so better leaving the 8/10dB gain reduction for the mix and focus in having your lead vocal consistent.

Then you can fine tune the attack, and that depends a lot on the singer.

malice

[CDR]

Well I started playing around with this one vocal track that's been giving me the most trouble. I still don't really know what I'm doing.. but I'll tell ya what I did..

I moved the threshold down to about -20.
The amount(1x) to 1.5
The attack to 20
And the release to about 200.

I compressed it 3 times with pretty much the same settings. It's definitely a whole lot better.. but there are these two words that are still a little louder than the rest, and these other two little parts that are a little quiter than the rest.

What exactly am I doing by moving the attack and the release? Is there a way I can smooth it out a little more.. should I keep compressing?

Thanks a lot!

:Thumbsup:

[malice]

if the release is not short enough :
you will have words than are to low and problem in comprehension


If the attack is not fast enough :
you will have words poping up and attacks ( "t" and "s") to agressive. Overdoing the attack migth as well make your track sound dull and lifeless.

Your ratio might be a bit low, try to raise to 4:1 and see how it works for you.

What comp are you using ?

malice

[malice]

Oh, and one more thing: it is normal to still have to automate your track in the mix, you know ;)

malice

[CDR]

Thanks a lot malice.



What comp are you using ?

Custom built. Pretty old, but constantly upgrading. Still has old RAM though. Haven't had any problems with my comp latency-wise (knock on wood).


Oh, and one more thing: it is normal to still have to automate your track in the mix, you know ;)

malice

Whoooosh, over my head. What exactly do you mean by this?

[otek]

Custom built. Pretty old, but constantly upgrading. Still has old RAM though. Haven't had any problems with my comp latency-wise (knock on wood).

When you say "built", I take that to mean it's a hardware compressor and not a plugin. Yes? Because you then mentioned "old RAM" which I'm not sure I'm getting. Which is it? And what do you mean by "old RAM"?

Whoooosh, over my head. What exactly do you mean by this?

Malice is talking about automation, as in mix automation of levels, mutes, pan, etc.

Another thing: You said you compressed it three times with the same setting. This would probably be detrimental to the sound if you are using an outboard comp, as you are losing digital generations in the repeated conversion. If you're using a plugin, I take it you mean that you rendered the track three times. Why render the compression settings? And why use the exact same settings on the exact same comp? That's pretty much the same as doing it once, with more intense settings. Different compressors will respond differently to the signal, so if you're double compressing, the best thing is to use different units.

Lastly, your ratio is in all probability too low, like Malice said.

[dikledoux]

When you say "built", I take that to mean it's a hardware compressor and not a plugin. Yes? Because you then mentioned "old RAM" which I'm not sure I'm getting. Which is it? And what do you mean by "old RAM"?
Malice was asking what compressor CDR is using, and I believe CDR thought Malice meant computer.

dik

[Stick]

I often automate the level the of vocal BEFORE it hits the compressor.

[recall]

And I often use a slow release just to even the level out a bit.

threshold is when you want the comp to kick in,

Attack is the "bite" of the compression and release is exactly as it suggests the "release" of the compression process.

Charles Dye has a good way of explaining compression in one of his psn podcasts relating it to ADSR on a synth.

Well worth a listen.

[CDR]

Yes, I was referring to my computer.

I'm using a plugin. And I didn't compress it 3 times with the same settings..I adjusted them slightly every time.

Thanks a lot for all your info, this has really helped me alot. And I will google Charles Dye tomorrow.

[jacvenza]

One tip is to mix an hard compressed voice on one channel, with another channel uncompressed, it sounded pretty good to me. I´ve heard that it should be som old Motown trick, someone who know?

I will take the opportunity to add one question when we talk about compressing. I always wander what good effect the make-up gain has on a compresser, how can it become useful? Is it to compensate a hard compressed level?

[Brendo]

Yeah, the old Motown trick, as I understand it, is to duplicate the vocal track, leave one natural and use it to send reverbs and FX, and make the other one ear-bleedingly trebly, cut the arse end out of it and destroy it with a compressor... then blend it up in small amounts until you can understand each syllable, making up for the loss of clarity you'd get from feeding the reverbs from the natural track...?

[otek]

Thanks a lot for all your info, this has really helped me alot.

No offense, but allow me a bit of skepticism here.

I'm using a plugin.

Ya.... But the question Malice asked was, which one? Sonar's own compressor?

And I didn't compress it 3 times with the same settings..I adjusted them slightly every time.

Well, would you describe IN DETAIL your work method for compressing the vocal. Did you bounce the track? Did you put up several instances of the same plugin in series? What?

And be specific, please.


otek


PS. No need to google Charles Dye. He is right here on these fora. You will find him in the Mix It Like a Record forum above this one.

[CDR]

Yes, a plugin in Sonar. It was under Sonic Foundry.

I can't be very specific, because I was just testing the compressor out. I've already drawn the conclusion that the ratio I used was too low. Here's what I can tell you: I right clicked the track, I went to Process Effect - Audio - Cakewalk - Track Compressor. In track compressor I did something like this:
I moved the threshold down to about -20.
The amount(1x) to 1.5
The attack to 20
And the release to about 200.
I then listened to the track, and it made a huge difference..but I wasn't satisfied. So I Processed another track compressor. I then moved the scales around a little bit. I can't be specific, because like I said..I was just testing. But for the sake of specifics, I then:
moved the threshold down to about -15.
The amount(1x) to 2
The attack to 25
And the release to about 100.
I then listened to the track, and it made a suble difference..but I still wasn't satisfied. So I Processed another track compressor. I then moved the scales around a little bit. Again, for the sake of specifics, I then:
moved the threshold down to about -20.
The amount(1x) to 2
The attack to 30
And the release to about 300.

Next time I compress a track.. I will post exactly what I've done.

You're skeptical that the information that has been given to me has been of use? I don't think I'm the one who should take offense.

[Comte de St Germain]

Stop.

Fuck compression.

Start with the fader.

Then fuck with the compressor.

We often times forget that the most basic approach is the most needed.

Draw each syllable if it is required.

Then, once it sits best of all, slap an 1176 style comp on it, attack at 6 and release at 7 with the 12:1 curve. If that doesn't work, go back to the fader, rinse and repeat.

[CDR]

Stop.

Fuck compression.

Start with the fader.

Then fuck with the compressor.

We often times forget that the most basic approach is the most needed.

Draw each syllable if it is required.

Then, once it sits best of all, slap an 1176 style comp on it, attack at 6 and release at 7 with the 12:1 curve. If that doesn't work, go back to the fader, rinse and repeat.

My next recording session I'll definitely use this advice. What advice can I give the singer, so that he doesn't fluctuate so much though?

[David Aurora]

My next recording session I'll definitely use this advice. What advice can I give the singer, so that he doesn't fluctuate so much though?

mic technique is pretty hard to teach on a forum, but thats what youre after. as in move back from the mic on loud bits, sing off to the side to dim it down or straight on to get it bright, get in close on condensors to get more low end.......it goes on and on. theres millions of cool tricks to get consistant vocals, and also to get particular sounds. best idea is for you yourself to put on headphones and talk/sing/yell/whisper into the mic from every concievable angle. take notes on what happens to the tone from each different angle/distance. watch the meters or record and look at the waveform to see this shit, although youre probably looking at peaks by doing that and that aint gonna really say much. but you'll get the gist.

basically you will start to find patterns. "hey, i can yell like a motherfucker at mic Z from 3 feet away and it doesnt distort, but goddamn it sounds roomy. but if i stand right up against mic X and turn my head off axis to the mic it doesnt clip AND still sounds nice and up front. or with mic Y i can get a good level by whispering right up against it, and can yell without distorting it by only moving back 10 inches!".

when you know and understand this shit (which takes time), then you get to try and teach a singer some of this without freaking them out.

[otek]

You're skeptical that the information that has been given to me has been of use? I don't think I'm the one who should take offense.

I think you misunderstood me. Of course I'm happy when something that's been said ends up being useful to someone, but the way you describe your work methods and various processes indicates to me that you are missing some pretty crucial basics that you probably should know before you go ahead and concern youself with what we've been discussing.

In other words, like I've sent you to the store with a shopping list but no money. :)

About the compression, where I got a bit hazy was, you seem to have rendered the process for each time you've compressed. Why? I am no Sonar expert, but isn't it better to simply stay online with the compressor and adjust it as needed as you go along?

Also, why the Sonic Foundry compressor? It seems to me that Sonar's own compressors should be a tad more versatile than that, and probably sound quite a bit better.

Again, I'm no Sonar expert, though I have asked one to weigh in here shortly.


Cheers,

otek



PS. David Aurora is very right about vocal mic techniques, but I doubt it's something you could teach a singer on the spot and expect him/her to use it successfully. For one, it would be very difficult to focus on that technique AND the performance at the same time, if you hadn't gotten used to it over time.

[malice]

Stop.

Fuck compression.

Start with the fader.

HO HO HO, that's for the real men. Not sure I would advise this if you don't have a lot of experience with the technique.

I do that for very dynamic singers though. I think that you should still indulge yourself with a little compression during takes. For that, as much as love LN1176 on vocals, I generally don't use it because I have this thing about using different type of compressors during tracking and during mixing.

For tracking, I'm a big fan of Requisite PAL+ wich is a preamp with some kinda LA2A comp combo. I say kinda
because it is not exactly the same behavior, less a one trick ponny if you follow my meaning. To start with, you have a control over a hi pass filter for the side chain that greatly help getting rid of the sibilance. That said, I don't overdo the tracking compression, the meter is really moving in the loud parts only, living the quitest part untouched, generally.


Then, once it sits best of all, slap an 1176 style comp on it, attack at 6 and release at 7 with the 12:1 curve. If that doesn't work, go back to the fader, rinse and repeat.

That's a rather drastic setting to me. I usually chose between 4:1 and 8:1, same release and lower setting on the attack.
(for those who are not familiar with the LN1176, higher settings = faster in this unit)

Of course, you could argue that all the 1176 sounds different, and that, to start with, there are a lot of variation on the models (black, silver etc ...), but 12:1, well, sometimes I use it on female vocals, but not very often.

That's the beauty of this job, everybody has his little tricks :)

malice

[Fulcrum]

I am not the Sonar expert Otek was calling on earlier, but I do use Sonar (6 PE) and can maybe speak to the issue.

Please please please tell us you are not doing anything destructive to your original vocal tracks, like actually Applying the effects. That will destroy your original uncompressed take and can be difficult if not impossible to reverse, if all that was wrong with an otherwise great performance is the dynamic level. Are you using your SF compressor as an insert?

That will make it easier to do what Otek suggests:

isn't it better to simply stay online with the compressor and adjust it as needed as you go along?

By which I think he means that as you are listening and monitoring, you can tweak the controls while the compressor is inserted into your channel.

A good ratio, as mentioned, is somewhere in the range of 3 or 4 to 1, and starting with that, you might try starting your threshold at 0 and then sweeping down until you are watching the meters and noticing that you are getting a maximum of 3 to 6 dB of compression. While you're learning, you'll probably need to do this with your eyes at first; later, as your ear becomes more attuned, you can tweak the threshold if it seems like too much squashing or too little.

Also, why the Sonic Foundry compressor? It seems to me that Sonar's own compressors should be a tad more versatile than that, and probably sound quite a bit better.

Heh. Cakewalk's own compressors are OK, but nothing to write home about. That's why they went out and bought Sonitus. Those are marginally better, but I tend to like the Renaissance Comp and the LAxA and Fairchild emulations in the URS 1970 Compressor/Limiter as a good starting point. The Waves SSL channel is pretty CPU-hungry but I don't find that compressor terribly intrusive when I can get away with it.

There was a time when I might also throw Renaissance Vox into the chain too, but lately I don't know that I trust just having one or two sliders to tweak. Your mileage, etc.

[CDR]

Thanks a lot for all your input. :grin:

This is a lot of information to digest, but I will work through it.

I use a copy of a vocal track to mess with.

I didn't know I could compress another way.. so I will try it as an insert.

The singer and I are real good friends, so I was just looking for some basic techniques I could try out with him.. as we learn together. You've given me much to think about, and to work with. Thanks again!

:Thumbsup:

[Mixerpuppet]

I was gonna say start with the vocalist....

if your new to recording, I assume the singer might be new to being recorded... learn to coach/coax a better performance. And learn to use the compression to fill in the gaps in performance.

I like squashing vocals.. but not because of performance reasons...

I just like headers on my hotrods!!!

Varooom!

[Comte de St Germain]

Malice,

I agree about the 1176 suggestion I put forth but if everything is working in front of it as it should this setting yields that grippy in your face sound with an additional high end accentuation that only this setting can yield. It's not a subtle thing for torch singers but i strongly urge you to try it in those instances when THAT SOUND I described is what you're after. IMO a properly driven 12:1 curve on the 1176 is a magical spot, sure, not for the faint of heart but usually when I go for an 1176 I'm not looking for transparent, that's what the Trakker is for.

BTW 12:1 as a 2 buss compressor setting is pretty cool too, for the right program material.

[malice]

Malice,

I agree about the 1176 suggestion I put forth but if everything is working in front of it as it should this setting yields that grippy in your face sound with an additional high end accentuation that only this setting can yield. It's not a subtle thing for torch singers but i strongly urge you to try it in those instances when THAT SOUND I described is what you're after. IMO a properly driven 12:1 curve on the 1176 is a magical spot, sure, not for the faint of heart but usually when I go for an 1176 I'm not looking for transparent, that's what the Trakker is for.

I can see your point, I must admit I'm working a lot more into very natural vocal most of the time. Needless to say I will investigate more into this as soon as I'll find a suitable voice and style.


BTW 12:1 as a 2 buss compressor setting is pretty cool too, for the right program material.

Oh, I have done this believe me. I even mixed an album through an aphex dominator, so ...

:D

malice

[otek]

You are both sissies.

Meanwhile, I'm using the "four buttons in" thing on vocal as soon as I get the chance. :D


otek

[Comte de St Germain]

You are both sissies.

Meanwhile, I'm using the "four buttons in" thing on vocal as soon as I get the chance. :D


otek

Hahaha, have fun automating out the breaths and mouth noise which will be louder than the vocal.

[otek]

Hahaha, have fun automating out the breaths and mouth noise which will be louder than the vocal.

I love eradicating the singer's breath.

Though it's better done on tracking. Two or three Life Savers, and don't forget to wash the pop filter.

[Shez]

Always liked to cook vocals by the old motown recipe:

Double recorded vocals to another track, make sure no time differences occur, use on No.
1: heavy compression (~50dB and 10:1), fast attack, slow release (if availabe - 1176 in british mode)
2: nuttin.

Now listen to the crunchy first track and slowly add No. 2 until it gets lively again.

Always works in Rock music :grin:

[CDR]

For some reason my post here was deleted.. hmmm...


Well anyway, thanks for all the compression tips.

I've actually been doing what you said a lot lately Shez.. I really like the outcome.



So now what's everyone's input about EQing vocals? :grin:

[otek]

So now what's everyone's input about EQing vocals? :grin:

Rarely when tracking, sparingly in mix.

I seldom feel I have to apply much EQ to the lead vocals, if I laid a good foundation in mic selection and work the compression in mix.

On backing vox, especially if I stack layers upon layers of them, there can sometimes be a lot of low-mid buildup. If so I will use some filtering and subtractive EQ in the low mids for that.

[CDR]

What I'm having a problem with is that the singer is sounding too far away, and sounds like he's coming out of a speaker. Is there any reverb that would help fix this?

Perhaps it's just the mic.

[otek]

What I'm having a problem with is that the singer is sounding too far away, and sounds like he's coming out of a speaker. Is there any reverb that would help fix this?

Perhaps it's just the mic.


How far is he from the mic?

Your best bet is to use compression and EQ to bring out the vocal.

Reverb is not gonna fix anything.

[CDR]

Thanks, we got a much better sound.

[Bob Olhsson]

Yeah, the old Motown trick, as I understand it, is to duplicate the vocal track, leave one natural and use it to send reverbs and FX, and make the other one ear-bleedingly trebly, cut the arse end out of it and destroy it with a compressor... then blend it up in small amounts until you can understand each syllable, making up for the loss of clarity you'd get from feeding the reverbs from the natural track...?Of course what's left out of the story is that only one engineer, Lawrence Horn, did all of that stuff in his mixes. Brian Holland and Norman Whitfield did not and Berry Gordy didn't want us using any compression. Our home brew 8 track machines had no top end and a lot of hum on the track (1) where we recorded the lead vocal. It was better than recording something else on that track other than bass which we recorded on the other edge track, #8. After we retired the last of the homebrew machines around 1968 we would use parallel compression off the floor but almost never in a mix.

Probably the most uncontrolable element in a vocal recording is the singer moving around. Second is the headphone mix. If you can mike the singer at 6" or greater and take great care with what the singer hears, a lot of dynamics and pitch problems go away.

[Shotgun]

Hey all. I'm very new to the recording game.. but I'm loving the hell out of it, and can easily see making it into a career.

I usually only record instruments..so when I finally had to record vocals, I was kind of floored. The singer's voice fluctuates? Who would've known. :) But how do I get these fluctuations not sounding like shit in the final mix? Is compression the answer? If so, where do I start?

I'm currently recording with Sonar 5 PE.

Any compression hints or tips would be extremely valuable. Thanks.

I typed this all out once, I ain't doin it again:


Shotgun's Compressor Tools 1 of 2
What you have to do is understand what compressors do, and what each of the controls do IN GENERAL. Then you apply that knowlege to what you want out of using the compressor and what your ears hear AT THE TIME OF USE so that you can adjust as necessary. So, read below for an overview of the box as a whole and each knob you're likely to find on it.

Compression
From the name, one can surmise that a compressor is going to squish, squash, mash or pulverize something. Given that we plug audio signals into it, we can further surmise that what is getting squished, squashed, mashed or pulverized is, indeed, our audio signal. And one would be completely correct in assuming that. But what does that really mean?

Well, consider an audio signal. Let's say it's a recording of my mom yelling at me about leaving my laundry piled haphazardly in the hallway. First, mom starts out trying to reason with me, gently, "Shotgun, you know, it's just not condusive to laundry efficiency leaving that stuff piled haphazardly like that..." her voice is calm, even and even somewhat soft. As I stare at her blankly, not understanding the finer points of sorting one's laundry and transporting it to the appropriate room in the house her voice becomes stronger and louder. "SHOTGUN! I'M GOING TO BEAT THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF YOU WITH A TIRE IRON IF YOU DON'T PICK THIS SHIT UP IMMEDIATELY AND PUT IT WHERE IT BELONGS SO HELP ME GOD!" Now she's yelling, screaming, in fact. Her face is red and frankly, I've just soiled myself which makes the entire laundry issue even more complicated.

Now, let's assume we're going to lay this recording of mom over some Nine Inch Nails-style door slamming, pipe clanging, fuzz guitar backing tracks. It's going to be an artistic tour-de-force. However, when mom starts out, her voice was hitting only about 65-70dB--normal conversational speech. By the time she's done it's more like 105dB worth of banshee howling. Unfortunately, our backing tracks are a pretty even volume the whole way through. So, at the beginning of the track mom will be virtually inaduible whereas at the end she'll be drowning out my samples of whacking a stapler on a desk. How do we deal with that?

WE USE A COMPRESSOR!

You see, what a compressor compresses is volume. That is, technically, it compresses the amplitude of the signal, or its "gain". So for every decibel that goes into the compressor, only a fraction of it will come out. That means that (depending on our settings, see below) if mom's voice uncompressed winds up at 105dB then we can set our compressor so that it only gets as high as 52dB if we want. How does that help you ask? Won't it still be too low to hear over the backing music? Yes it will, but read on and we'll cover that in the controls discussion.

Threshold
The threshold control on a compressor sets a level below which the compressor will do no work. The control is graduated in dB (in this case dBV of signal level) and allows you to set an "on/off" point so that you can compress the LOUD parts of a signal, and leave the soft parts alone. At times you may want to set this control low enough so that you're affecting the entire signal, at times you may not. In the case of mom's rant-on-tape, what we may want to do is set the compressor so that it doesn't touch the signal until her voice reaches something like 85dB or so***, say, about halfway up the scale from softest to loudest. So, we set the threshold so that we only see activity on our "gain reduction" meter when the track gets to a certain point.

To USE the threshold control effectively, you generally need to use your ears. Have some idea, before you start, of what you hope to accomplish by using the compressor and set the threshold to capture the part of a signal you wish to do whatever that is to. In our example I want to lower the louder parts of my mom's tirade so I set the threshold to activate the compression at some arbitrary point in the track. I could have done it several other ways and the only way to learn which is best is to experiment and listen.

Ratio
This is the control that tells us how much signal comes out of the box relative to what's coming in. It is graduated in terms of a ratio (hence the name) of output to input. So, let's say we set the control to point at "2:1". That means that for every 2dB of incoming signal, we're only going to get 1dB of outgoing signal. Which means that at its very loudest, mom's voice isn't going to be nearly as loud as it was originally. Keep in mind that this ratio only applies to signals that meet or exceed the threshold setting. Any signal that is below the threshold just passes through as though the compressor weren't there (kinda).

To use the ratio control effectively you, again, need some idea of what you want out of your compressor overall. In our case I just need mom's voice to be more easily mixed in with the backing tracks so I just want it to be kind of even. However, I still want it to start softer and get louder, just maybe not AS soft at the beginning and not AS loud at the end. That is, still changing, just not as much.

Attack
The attack control tells us that, once a signal meets or exceeds the threshold, how quickly does the compressor put the smack down on said signal? The control is usually graduated in intervals of time, usually marked in milliseconds. So, let's say that I set my attack control to say 5ms. That means that when the signal passing through reaches the threshold I've set, the compressor waits an additional 5ms before it begins to reduce the amplitude (again, gain). This seems counter-intuitive doesn't it? I mean, we want the level controlled WHEN it reachest threshold, right? Not 5ms later. Well, there are reasons for slightly delaying the attack (and for that matter release) times.

To use the attack time effectively (and by now you should have seen this coming) you need to know what you want out of your compressor in general. Do you want the signal clamped down on fairly quickly? Or not? How do you know? This brings in one of the most important concepts of recording: attack and decay. Each sound has an attack and a release. Imagine hitting a drum (the easiest place to see this concept). You hear the sharp, immediately loud sound as the stick hits the head, but you also hear the sound gently fade away, also. That initial WHACK, that initial spike in amplitude is the sound's attack. Everything else is it's decay. Note that I use these terms in a "Shotgun" type of way and there are more correct ways to say this, I think, but I tend to, over time, develop my own language, so you're at a disadvantage.

So then, we can hear an attack in mom's voice, too. It's more subtle than the attack of a drum hit with a stick, or a guitar player's pick against a string, but it's there. And if we set our compressor's attack time too short, we will lose all the definition of the attack of the sound. Sometimes that's desirable, but in our case it is not. A very large percentage of how people perceive sounds comes from the attack. You must strive to preserve that unless it is your desire to purposely not. Therefore, be very careful with the attacks under your care. In the case of a vocal track, the attack of the voice will lend very much to the intelligibility of the track, so we do NOT want to destroy it. So, we may want a slightly longer attack time than 5ms here. But we can only tell BY LISTENING. LISTEN to the track, sweep the attack control back and forth and listen to what happens to the attack of the sounds. If it sucks, move the control. Don't look at where it's pointing until you're satisfied with how it sounds. Then only look for the sake of curiosity because that setting may never work the same way again. if you're using a plug-in make sure you allow ample time for the movement to take effect. Moving a plug-in's controls can sometimes not take effect for a full second or two after you move it so if you're sweeping it back and forth rapidly you'll fool yourself. In the case of plugins, make a move and pause until it changes. If it doesn't change within 2-3 seconds, maybe you didn't move it far enough.

Release
As you might guess the release control handles the other end of the signal from the attack. That is, when a signal drops back below the threshold, how long does the compressor wait to actually stop compressing. All the same counter-intuitiveness applies here as well. However, remember that the decay or "tail" of a signal isn't as important to the listener as the attack so you can get away with a little more here. Again this control is going to be graduated in units of time, usually ms. However, the numbers will be larger than the attack times. Sometimes up into the 100's of ms or even full seconds.

To set a proper release time, again, understand what you want out of your compressor. Do you want a major thrashing to your sound, or do you just want kind of a gentle corrective measure? What you have to look out for in the case of release times is pumping. If your release time is set too short then the sound will drop below the threshold, the compressor will release it, but the sound will then jump UP in level because the compression is no longer making it softer, but it's below threshold. That probably sounds confusing, but it happens. And it will sound pretty odd. The first time you hear it you'll understand why it's called "pumping". It sounds almost like there's a new "attack" near the end of the signal's decay. As I've said before, sometimes this is actually desirable. Usually it's not though. Your goal is to set a release time long enough to give the sound time to naturally decay to a point that when the compressor lets go it won't "pump" yet short enough so that the compressor isn't still active when the next "attack" comes along. If you set your release time too long it will start fucking around with the attacks because it's taking so long to let go the next loud signal is there before the last one is finished compressing. So, if you get your attack set where you think it's right, but then you start losing your attack again, consider dropping that release time lower (faster).

Make up gain
Here's where we answer your initial question of "Won't it still be too low to hear over the backing music?" Remember that we noted that mom's voice started out so low that it was lost in the music. And all we've done so far is to use our compressor to take the bite out of the louder part of the track so that it's not overpowering. So, doesn't this leave the softer part still lost? And, possibly, doesn't it make the WHOLE TRACK too soft now? Yes, it absolutely does. But that's what we have makeup gain for.

The makeup gain is going to look very similar to any other gain control you have seen. It will be marked off in dB, possibly starting at 0dB and moving up to some obscene amount like 20 or 40 or 60 or 100,000 or something. (It won't really be 100,000). The makeup gain does just what it says it does, too. It allows you to "make up" the gain that you're losing by compressing in the first place. Now, that doesn't mean it UNDOES what you just did, not by any means. It means that you can now take your newly compressed signal and make the WHOLE THING louder. This is how we're going to get the parts that are too soft up where they belong.

To set this control we're going to, of course, listen. What we've done thus far is to compress down the loudest parts of the signal so that they're not so loud. You can say that the loud parts are now "closer" to the soft parts so to speak. So what you do with your makeup gain is to take the whole lot and move it back UP some smaller amount so that now the loudest parts are just still loud, but not AS loud and the softer parts are still soft, but loud enough to be heard. Think of yourself playing basketball. If you're short like me, there's no way you can slam dunk a basketball. However, let's say you can lower your basketball goal by one foot. Now it's lower, but you still can't slam dunk it, but lowering it any more would ruin the rest of the game because you'd just be dropping the thing in and not shooting. So what you do is you make yourself magically grow a foot as well. Now the goal is still a reasonable height, but you can slam dunk because you've grown a bit yourself. Same sorta thing. Your signal isn't so low it sucks now, but it isn't so high you can't get anything useful out of it as well.

Here's a shocker: in terms of makeup gain there IS a general rule you can keep in mind. As you're setting your compressor's other settings you will notice the meter marked "gain reduction" giving you some idea of what you're doing to the signal. It could be a schitzophrenic little peak meter or it could be a big, slow, thoughtful VU meter. Either way it'll tell you "hey, you're getting about 5dB of gain reduction here pal!" So, this tells you you can START your makeup gain at a setting of +5dB. That should give you a compressed signal at the same general level as the uncompressed signal. Kinda. Sorta. It's a really ROUGH starting point, but it's a starting point nonetheless. Again, though, twist it and listen to get it where it really needs to be. You may want more, you may want less.

The bullshit you'll hear
Now, as you get replies to this thread there will be plenty of numbskulls along to give the following answers:

(1) Shotgun you're such a fucking asshole. The guy just wanted some basic info, some basic starting points for his compressor why do you have to be such a prick?

(2) Shotgun, you don't understand compression and you've never done any recording, HAVE you?

(3) Here are my basic settings and they'll probably work

None of that is even remotely true. Sure, there are plenty of basic starting points anybody here could give you. In fact, many of these folks have only been using compressors for about 6 months, but even THEY will have ONE setting group that they like for some reason and are DYING to tell you it in order to appear knowlegeable. Do not listen to any of this shit. Develop your own views on good starter compression settings by appying what you learn and what you hear and what you observe in your own experience. There are so many different kinds of compressors that anybody who gives you a rough setting diatribe is just pissing in the wind. In fact, many types of compressors don't even HAVE some of the controls I mentioned. Some have more. Also, there are plenty of points we haven't covered. For example limiting, which is a special kind of compression that uses a very high ratio (often infinity:1).


***IMPORTANT NOTE: Please understand that the dBSPL of mom's voice is NOT the same as the dBV of the signal to which we are applying compression. If we knew what type of microphone was used, and what type of recording medium we could make rough calculations as to what dBV we would be working at, but we don't, so just suffice it to say that mom's voice was soft, then very loud and that the signal starts off weak and becomes accordingly stronger. Just don't make the mistake of assigning any particular significance to the numbers I'm using, I picked them at random.

[nobby]

Hey Bullpup! Great to have ya back where you belong. You've been missed!

:Thumbsup:

[STUDIORAT]

compression is a great tool try a mild compression like a 3: 1 ratio
a rather fast attack and a moderate release and keep the input down to add a nice even sound there are no rules just listen to see what the comp is doing and try to listen for the compressor breathing (loping up and down ) then readjust the release and attack times a bit til it goes away and learn the vocalist to mic techniques creep in on soft passages and back the fuck up during loud aggressive passages



happy tracking

[AxeSlash]

Shotgun's compression description should be stickied somehow. Seems pretty spot on to me, and a great source of info for those new to compression.

Now we just gotta get someone to do the same for every other type of gear we use to polish turds in this business...

[Shotgun]

Hey Bullpup! Great to have ya back where you belong. You've been missed!

:Thumbsup:


I just saw this, were you talkin to me JobJob?

[nobby]

I just saw this, were you talkin to me JobJob?

Yep.

[Cosmic Pig]

I dunno... you guys are talking to a total noob, and speaking as a fairly recent noob myself it's possible most of it might be going over CDR's head.

So I'll toss my crap on the pile.

CDR, first up, you'll have to be able to hear compression to understand it. The thing that turned the light bulb on for me was overcompressing on acoustic guitar. Maybe because I'm a guitar player mostly.

So, run an acoustic guitar through a compressor and crank all the settings. Attack as fast as it'll go and release long, ratio high. Sounds flat and weird. Think of attack as the size or hardness of the pick. As you back the attack off from 0 ms to say 5 or 6 you'll notice it sounds like the pick is going from a very thin pick to a very hard pick. With drums it's the same thing, except attack is the size of the stick rather than the pick.

Once you have a pick size you like then head for the release. Thats where the sound swoops back up after compressing. Screw with that for a while and you'll hear how when its set fast it pulls up those quiet notes but just makes the meat of the notes flat and dead. When it's set long , like 1000 ms, it's like playing with a volume pedal almost.

Then go to the ratio. As you back that off from 1:16 down to 1:2 or so you should be able to hear the meat coming in. Sounds more natural.

The gain is the same as a fader, has nothing to do with compression other than turning the track back up because compressing it turns it down.

A compressor is just an automatic volume control. We use it to emulate the way your ear hears sounds naturally.

If you don't hear it right away, don't sweat it, it'll get there. Learning engineering has more to do with training the ears to hear the details of music than anything else. The main tools in your arsenal are compression and EQ, and it takes a while to hear that stuff. Like years in fact. Another huge tool is mic placement.

Something that helped me was putting up an example of my crap mixing and having these guys rip it to shreds.

Something else to understand is there are no rules to mixing, because if you follow a rule as told to you by one of the assholes on this forum without understanding it you'll fuck it up. Because every rule changes with the situation. So explore outside any percieved rules and try to understand why asshole X thinks it's a rule. If you don't get it then don't worry, it'll get there when it gets there.

Cos.

[HOOK]

Once you have a pick size you like then head for the release.



:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sorry Cosmic, if you where swedish you whould understand why I find your statement funny...:Wink:


Good post though :)



HOOK

[otek]

A compressor is just an automatic volume control. We use it to emulate the way your ear hears sounds naturally.

You are mostly right, Coz, and I realize you're simplifying the explanation as much as you can.

Though I would like to add that compression adds much more than level control. It also imparts a sonic signature to the track.

Sometimes, you don't want that signature, and you will try to set the compressor to do its thing transparently. But sometimes, you're actually going for that sound, and at those times you will strive to make your compression as dramatic as possible.

What type of signature the compressor gives to the track, is of course also dependent on the model and operating principle of the compressor, the differences of which will become clearer as one tries out more and more different ones.


otek

[CDR]

Thanks for all the advice. I've been playing around a lot lately with a couple of compressor plugins that I have. I'm starting to get the hang of it.. especially when the sound gets way too distorted like you mentioned cosmic.

[mattian]

if the release is not short enough :
you will have words than are to low and problem in comprehension


If the attack is not fast enough :
you will have words poping up and attacks ( "t" and "s") to agressive. Overdoing the attack migth as well make your track sound dull and lifeless.

Your ratio might be a bit low, try to raise to 4:1 and see how it works for you.

What comp are you using ?

malice



i want just to thanks malice because this is the kind of suggestions that i like! and this and the other one about 1176 works for me and have helps me a lot.

there are no rules, but when one explains "if it's to slow you hear that if it's to fast you hear that" like for the attack.. is really useful. i've understand more about 1176 and is became my favorite comp for vocals :)

instead my favorite deesser is became the logic comp of logic 8, but is another thing (wonderful, i've sidechained it with the built in filter to the max i mean 13000 or more..than all parameter at max.. attack 0.5 rel 5 ratio 30 thrash to taste.. knee to 8, and have a magic button.. "soft distortion" WONDERFUL)

[mattian]

oh sorry, a question. about 1176 and ratio. the differences for you which are? to me at 12 it sounds perfect, on a female vocal, and i've make the sound with that setting, i mean find the attack, but than i switch to 8, i don't like is a bit less of 12 without adding anything more.. than i've choose 4 because it seems have more body and more click on attack. but probably are a bit less intelligibility.. probably i've do that because i'm scared about lose to much attack.. making the sound dull. but i've very compressed because is very dynamics.. i'm at peak of 7db of gr.. and a bit more in 12.. so also to be sure i've choose 4.

but do you think that this feeling is right? i mean the differences between 12 and 4 that i've explained.

[brack]

mattian, I'm glad you made a post here in this old thread. I learned a ton from Shotgun and Cosmic Pig.

I have a DBX compressor I used for my guitar rack and I have a notebook sheet of compressor settings with pictures, numbers, dial settings because I was SO afraid of loosing that sound I dialed in one day. I never understood why I got that awesome sound, I just knew that it sounded good. The pick striking the string was so defined and up close in level with the decays, the sustain was nice and even and everything was like polished distortion. I loved it. After reading shotgun's post, I think I can re-dial it anytime I want.

Before I read this I just dialed shit and went "bypass, wet, bypass, wet, re-screw knobs, bypass..." Eventually either I had a better sounding track/mix or I'd get frustrated and just remove the stupid plugin and do something else.

Compressing distorted guitars seems harder because I think distortion compresses the signal some, plus things like pods and whatever racks/stomps will compress too, then its like shrink wrapping the already shrink wrapped. Even my rectum tubes are compressing, I read... well sagging and acting like a compressor.

Well, thanks for putting this cool info up.

Brack

[mattian]

well, i'm reading all forum.. so if i find something that changes me, my ear sensibility, i like to thanks to who have written something interesting.

so what have written malice is something simple that working with it i've really understand all.. and the thing about release leave at 7 is really important to me, because a lot of time i've love it at 7 on vocals, but here all says "use a long release to avoid distortion and pumping.." on vocals says that 300 is the best.. and the effect that i like is exactly that one of 1176 at 7.. or other plugs at fast release.. because usually i've vocals very dynamics and i haven't a pop filter.. (i'm lazy to go to buy it.. i have to do i know.. is like 2 years that i have to buy it.. i spend my money for other things..)

i'm glad that you can make all that you want now, with compressors.. do you have any interesting suggestion? i don't know what.. i like comp a lot i'm very frustrating when i turn knob and i don't hear much.. but now are more the times that i'm connected with my hear to the right point to listen, maybe attack, or pick too loud, etc, and i can ear exactly what i do..

the thing that i haven't understand and i can't control, is why my brain go crazy for a period and maybe also after 2 or 3 hours of totally stupidity, all became clear and without thinking i make something magic.. hihi

the same sensation that i've got is when i've read malice and compress the vocals tonight.. i hear exactly what i do and i'm forget to bypass it.. i forget also to change the gain.. when i'm remembered that i've listen with and without and boom excellent. now i'm listening it on a mac book and i hear the vox better than in my studio. never hide.

[otek]

Even my rectum tubes are compressing


Another image I'd rather unsee. :lol:


otek

[eagan]

Another image I'd rather unsee. :lol:



Oh, man. Tell me about it.

Trying desperately to move on from that....


Here's a little note for what it's worth for folks more toward the "relative newbie" end of the scale.

I've been doing this stuff on and off for around a quarter century, albeit at a much more limited and humbler level, and logging much less sheer mileage and range of experience, than much of the crowd here. But I didn't just fall off the haywagon, anyway.

But to this day, without a doubt, dialing in compression well and quickly, and really getting it just right, is by far the most consistently challenging and difficult stuff in anything about audio for me and my tiny little brain.

I guess I'm trying to say, there is never a simple general formula that works for all devices in all circumstances, and don't feel too bad if you're really getting frustrated with it sometimes.


JLE

[AxeSlash]

Compressing distorted guitars seems harder because I think distortion compresses the signal some, plus things like pods and whatever racks/stomps will compress too, then its like shrink wrapping the already shrink wrapped. Even my rectum tubes are compressing, I read... well sagging and acting like a compressor.


*Swaggers round the corner*

Right then.

Anyone who says that the distortion of a guitar amp/preamp/whatever negates the need for compression is talking shit. Record one and look at the waveform.

And, anyone who states that you SHOULD compress distorted guitars is ALSO talking shit.

My 10p is thus:

With distorted guitars, you have to be FUCKING CAREFUL how you compress them. When you're doing vocals/drums/bass/whatever, you can get away with overcompressing or undercompressing.

Distorted guitars? Nah-ah.

They're such a wide band instrument that you REALLY have to consider what compressing will DO to the track first. Are there lots of heavy palm muted bits? If so, you're gonna be way better off with parallel compression with the bottom cut off the comp'd track. Or maybe look into multiband compression.

Or you may even be better off leaving it the fuck alone.

When it comes to dist guit, compression becomes a MASSIVE case of knowing when it needs it and when it doesn't.


In my estimation, the distortion stage of any given guitar rig DOES even out stuff in a certain way; the top end will be steady-state as fuck, but the further down the frequency range you go (and the more distorted you go), the more dynamic it gets; by the time you're down at 100Hz you've got some SERIOUS dynamics to contend with.

Thus, compressing something very distorted HARD may well be a bad idea because the high mid (which is fucking CRITICAL here) is going to react to the low mids' dynamics. Thus you will end up with a guitar track that sounds like an early 80's thrash band (see: early Testament). So unless you're after THAT sound (WHY?!?), it's probably a bad idea.

All of that said, I'm a big fan of spanking the shit out of solos and lead lines to get them to really stand up and fucking DANCE.




So the rule of thumb IMO is that if it's a rhythm track, be FUCKING careful with compression. If it's lead, you have a lot more leeway.

[brack]

Thus you will end up with a guitar track that sounds like an early 80's thrash band (see: early Testament). So unless you're after THAT sound (WHY?!?), it's probably a bad idea.

Hehe. I loved that sound at the time. If only someone would have slapped me in 1991, broke my Testament CD and pointed to a Kyuss vinyl album. Where is future me when I needed him?

Thanks axe... Yeah I'm just starting to understand compression, but I do know, I just wanna sound like this... it's the holy grail of keytar sounds... I think it's more a gayted reverb than compression :lol:

http://www.theracingpaper.com/blogandt/images/JuliesWedding/Parker.jpg