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View Full Version : Mubarak Steps Down


Mixerman
February 11th, 2011, 06:42 PM
Toppled! (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/mubarak-red-sea-egypt_n_821812.html)

The internet strikes again.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Tim Halligan
February 11th, 2011, 07:06 PM
Let's not get too excited just yet.

He's stepped down and handed power to the military high command...instead of the Parliamentary Speaker that the constitution calls for in situations like this.

It looks like it might be a military coup.

I hope for the people's sake this isn't a frying pan/fire scenario.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12433045

Cheers,
Tim

studiomusic
February 11th, 2011, 07:29 PM
Probably a successful coup.

Mixerman
February 11th, 2011, 08:31 PM
The US has a close relationship with the Egyptian military. The high brass of the Egyptian military visit the Pentagon on regular occasion, and we pretty much fund and supply them. This gives the Egyptian military a good incentive to make sure a proper governing body is established, so they can continue to get their toys and money.

Egypt has a long road ahead of them in the transition to Democracy. We've been doing this for 250 years here in the US, and it's still an awful form of government fraught with problems. It just happens to also be the best form of government invented thusfar.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Let's not get too excited just yet.

He's stepped down and handed power to the military high command...instead of the Parliamentary Speaker that the constitution calls for in situations like this.

It looks like it might be a military coup.

I hope for the people's sake this isn't a frying pan/fire scenario.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12433045

Cheers,
Tim

digiengineer
February 11th, 2011, 09:29 PM
I'm not excited about this; any time the military takes over a country, whether the U.S. backs them or not, always makes my asshole pucker. Military rule, regardless of popularity, is historically slow to cede power to the people. And the fact remains the U.S. supported Mubarak and we support the military... when the fireworks end, a vocal segment of the population won't be too happy about having what on the surface is another Western puppet government.

For the short-term, it's a win for the U.S. and our allies, however, I don't think this will be much of a win for Egyptians; more of a lateral move.

Mixerman
February 11th, 2011, 09:40 PM
I'm not excited about this; any time the military takes over a country, whether the U.S. backs them or not, always makes my asshole pucker. Military rule, regardless of popularity, is historically slow to cede power to the people. And the fact remains the U.S. supported Mubarak and we support the military... when the fireworks end, a vocal segment of the population won't be too happy about having what on the surface is another Western puppet government.

For the short-term, it's a win for the U.S. and our allies, however, I don't think this will be much of a win for Egyptians; more of a lateral move.

And risk another protest? I doubt it. The next uprising will make this one look small, and the Egyptian Military isn't going to risk China-like methods of keeping peaceful protesters in line. I predict a long messy transition to some form of true democracy, but ultimately a successful one.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Aardvark
February 11th, 2011, 09:59 PM
I'm not excited about this; any time the military takes over a country, whether the U.S. backs them or not, always makes my asshole pucker. Military rule, regardless of popularity, is historically slow to cede power to the people.

True... and the military have been running Egypt since Nasser led a revolt sixty odd years ago and seized power.

I cannot see how the military, at this moment, can divest themselves of authourity given there is no credible Parliament or structured political opposition to manage the levers of government.

This entire drama will take some time to sort out both inside of Egypt and outside. My guess is we can't even begin to guess what will really happen... I hope them all well.



Cheers,
ChinaislurkinginthedarkwingsVark





.

CloseToTheEdge
February 11th, 2011, 10:49 PM
"The time has come. The time is now. Just go. Go. GO! I don't care how. You can go on stilts. You can go by fish. You can go in a Crunk-Car if you wish." —Dr. Seuss

I guess he went.

John Eppstein
February 11th, 2011, 11:34 PM
And risk another protest? I doubt it. The next uprising will make this one look small, and the Egyptian Military isn't going to risk China-like methods of keeping peaceful protesters in line. I predict a long messy transition to some form of true democracy, but ultimately a successful one.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

True democracy?

I doubt it.

We don't even have true democracy here.

digiengineer
February 11th, 2011, 11:34 PM
And risk another protest? I doubt it. The next uprising will make this one look small, and the Egyptian Military isn't going to risk China-like methods of keeping peaceful protesters in line. I predict a long messy transition to some form of true democracy, but ultimately a successful one.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Ultimately, it wasn't the protest, but the military coup that forced Mubarak out. And in reality, if the military has to use China-like methods to squash protesters, they will as history has shown with nearly every military rule; international opinion be damned. I hope it ends well for the people of Egypt, but history has this annoying habit of repeating itself.

chrisrnps
February 12th, 2011, 01:20 AM
"You can go in a Crunk-Car if you wish." —Dr. Seuss

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AEGhVALXUZk/2.jpg

"Mr. Smith, in light of recent developments, may we loan the Crunk-Car to Mr. Mumbarak?"

"WHAT?"

"May we loan the Crunk-Car to former President Mumbarak for the weekend, sir?"

"WHAT?"

"May we..."

"If there is a way in which our organization, or "posse", may assist with this historical transition, I believe that would be the most prudent action at this particular juncture."

"Excellent, sir. So may we have your permission to..."

"OKAY! YAY-UH! YAY-UH!"

Darth_Fader
February 12th, 2011, 02:32 AM
Ultimately, it wasn't the protest, but the military coup that forced Mubarak out. And in reality, if the military has to use China-like methods to squash protesters, they will as history has shown with nearly every military rule; international opinion be damned. I hope it ends well for the people of Egypt, but history has this annoying habit of repeating itself.



Like he said ^^^^^^

maccool
February 12th, 2011, 02:50 AM
...And in reality, if the military has to use China-like methods to squash protesters, they will as history has shown with nearly every military rule; international opinion be damned...

I don't think so.

I agree that the Egyptian Army is underwriting this revolution, but have no idea how far ahead they might have seen this coming. Not very far I suspect, and withal, I think that the Egyptian Army is playing a blinder, thinking fast, backing a winner. Tunisia lit the fuse. And here we are, one month or so later, and we have regime change in Egypt. Given the geo-politics of this vis à vis the Egyptian Army's relations with Washington, not forgetting the huge sums of cash involved, I do think that this is going to turn out fine. Ever the optimist, me.

It is an idea who's time has come. I wish Egypt peace, and good will to all. Insha'Allah.

John Eppstein
February 12th, 2011, 02:58 AM
I don't think so.

I agree that the Egyptian Army is underwriting this revolution, but have no idea how far ahead they might have seen this coming. Not very far I suspect, and withal, I think that the Egyptian Army is playing a blinder, thinking fast, backing a winner. Tunisia lit the fuse. And here we are, one month or so later, and we have regime change in Egypt. Given the geo-politics of this vis à vis the Egyptian Army's relations with Washington, not forgetting the huge sums of cash involved, I do think that this is going to turn out fine. Ever the optimist, me.

It is an idea who's time has come. I wish Egypt peace, and good will to all. Insha'Allah.

Whatever would give you the idea that the Egyptian army's relations with Washington would favor making things work out fine?

Since when has the US government had a track record of backing real democratic governments, especially in strategic areas?

maccool
February 12th, 2011, 03:35 AM
Whatever would give you the idea that the Egyptian army's relations with Washington would favor making things work out fine?

Since when has the US government had a track record of backing real democratic governments, especially in strategic areas?

I'm just talking out of my ass John. Don't pay me no nevermind.

But, if you really want to task me about it, I'd say that Egypt is crucial to any possible resolution of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The Egyptian Army chose not to move against the protesters. The Egyptian Army is for Egypt, and yes, I do think that is so. Egyptians are now demonstrably for democracy. The Egyptian Army is in receipt of huge funds from Washington. I do think that that the Egyptian Army will support this change. As I see it, they have nothing to lose, and all to gain. I'm merely expressing an opinion.

In this case, imho, track record or no, and seeing this from outside of the USA, Washington's continued support of an Egyptian Army which looks like it's going to support this move to democracy in Egypt seems like a no-brainer to me.

Prolly much better that I just stfu now.

Time will tell.

Pax.

John Eppstein
February 12th, 2011, 06:21 AM
I'm just talking out of my ass John. Don't pay me no nevermind.

But, if you really want to task me about it, I'd say that Egypt is crucial to any possible resolution of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The Egyptian Army chose not to move against the protesters. The Egyptian Army is for Egypt, and yes, I do think that is so. Egyptians are now demonstrably for democracy. The Egyptian Army is in receipt of huge funds from Washington. I do think that that the Egyptian Army will support this change. As I see it, they have nothing to lose, and all to gain. I'm merely expressing an opinion.

In this case, imho, track record or no, and seeing this from outside of the USA, Washington's continued support of an Egyptian Army which looks like it's going to support this move to democracy in Egypt seems like a no-brainer to me.

Prolly much better that I just stfu now.

Time will tell.

Pax.

Don't get me wrong - I'm really HOPING that things will work out great for both the Egyptian people and our interests. I'm just not EXPECTING it.

I'm not expecting anything at this point, I'm just watching with interest.

Bob Olhsson
February 12th, 2011, 07:34 AM
I'm very optimistic about this. Egypt is where most young Israelis like to spend their vacation. The younger generation of both countries speak fluent English, are very tech-savvy and I understand there are a great many cross-border friendships and even intermarriages. My point is that the youth behind this are living in a completely different world from and clearly have had enough of the old folks' political B.S. and corruption.

eagan
February 12th, 2011, 08:37 AM
Egypt is where most young Israelis like to spend their vacation. The younger generation of both countries speak fluent English, are very tech-savvy and I understand there are a great many cross-border friendships and even intermarriages. My point is that the youth behind this are living in a completely different world from and clearly have had enough of the old folks' political B.S. and corruption.

In this, there is hope.


From where I sit as a distant observer who can only guess and speculate like the rest of us yammering here, I see this. I don't see a military coup here.

From what I can tell, I think it's a bit simpler and pragmatic. People rose up. The Egyptian military wasn't about to turn on their own people. From what I can tell about Mubarak, I suspect he probably tried that. I suspect that with the new developments (his speech when people were expecting to hear him announcing his resignation, and after a mass reaction of "what? he's still not leaving?" and a crowd marching to the presidential palace), I think it might have come down to this scene. Military commanders telling him, in a nutshell, "look, the people are not going to drop this and go away... we are not going to stomp them and fire on them for you, you're on your own, chief.. do what you're gonna do". Mubarak finally got the hint that he wasn't going to hang on there, and it could only end up badly with him holed up with whatever loyal presidential guard fighting off a million angry people, and maybe about the time guards started firing on civilians, at that point it probably would BECOME a real live military coup in order to squelch that ugliness.

He finally figured out, it's over.


That's my guess.

But what the fuck do I know?


JLE

Dave Perry
February 12th, 2011, 10:20 AM
I'm just glad Mubarak didn't order the police to spray the crowds with bullets on Friday and then blame it on the "violent protests". I was a bit worried on Thursday. I think this proves he probably isn't a monster, mostly just a failed leader who strayed into using methods that were too brutal, and he proved to be his own undoing.

I'm not taking any bets on what happens next, though.

My sister works for a company that books custom tours (of Americans, mostly) in Egypt, so she will certainly have her finger on the pulse of any and all developments.

DannyTheDimbulb
February 12th, 2011, 11:16 AM
Whoever is going to take power now will not be able to achieve much without the compliance of the population. Any bureaucratic model will fail to work unless it is backed by the people. And what are the “national ends”? The majority of Egyptians may wish for democracy, but having no real experience, their idea of democracy is probably a little different from yours or mine.

It’s time for the people of Egypt to finally establish a true democracy in their country. Governments come and go, it’s the people who make the nation. Now they have an opportunity. It’s looking good for Egypt! You don’t have to be a student of political science to understand that people won’t be pushed around all the time. Sooner or later they retire their unfit leaders. Even Arabs ;-)

Meanwhile Mubarak will be enjoying the billions he stole from his people (he is not a “monster”, only a politician). I bet that if he saw a chance of getting an extra buck by going China on his people, he would have.

I just hope they get their shit together, because I fear the idea of Israel being involved in battles with her neighbors in the north AND south at the same time.

And it won't be long
'til the people flood the streets
To take you down
One and all
A black rain is gonna fall
-Ben Harper

Bob Olhsson
February 12th, 2011, 07:14 PM
The only way the powerful can control information today is by swamping it out with misinformation. We see this a lot in the U.S. however old school dictators don't have the Madison Avenue chops to pull this off yet.

DPower
February 12th, 2011, 08:12 PM
I just hope they get their shit together, because I fear the idea of Israel being involved in battles with her neighbors in the north AND south at the same time.

You know something we don't? Is Israel planning on bombing the hell out of Lebanon again?

Wide-O
February 12th, 2011, 08:25 PM
I am - and will possibly be wrong - optimistic about this.

When you look at the age demographics, there is something happening out there. (and not only in Egypt).

I think even in Iran 70% of the population is younger than 30. IIRC there are more blogs in Farsi (or almost as many, have to look up the source) as there are in English...

They have had enough of dictators, and enough of "down your throat" religion.

Maybe, just maybe, we are seeing the birth of real democracies there.

Obviously, I may find out tomorrow that I'm just stupid. Well, at least that didn't change. :Coolio:

Revolutions tend to get snatched by people who have other agendas, but even if that happens, this one deserves the medal of "smartest revolution ever".

And no, the top brass of the army is not with the people. A massacre was avoided on Jan. 30th, when the army got instructions to just blow those people away. (F-16's moment...)

For some reason, the guys in the tanks didn't buy it, and it didn't happen.

nobby
February 12th, 2011, 10:11 PM
You don’t have to be a student of political science to understand that people won’t be pushed around all the time. Sooner or later they retire their unfit leaders. Even Arabs ;-)

The good news is that Egypt isn't Iran. Or North Korea, whose people have been pushed around for 60 years.

Meanwhile Mubarak will be enjoying the billions he stole from his people

The first thing that happened after Mubarak stepped down was that his Swiss bank accounts were frozen.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

samc
February 12th, 2011, 10:22 PM
The US has a close relationship with the Egyptian military. The high brass of the Egyptian military visit the Pentagon on regular occasion, and we pretty much fund and supply them. This gives the Egyptian military a good incentive to make sure a proper governing body is established, so they can continue to get their toys and money.
The US also had a very close relationship with Mubarak too, but rather than prevent his transgressions, that relationship actually empowered him to make them...at will. This development has the fingerprints of the US all over it, what they did was to take the power from the left hand and put it in the right hand.

If the US government really wanted to help the people of Egypt gain the democracy and freedom from corruption they desire they could easily have told Mubarak and the Army leaders to to comply and it would have been so...

Slipperman
February 12th, 2011, 10:29 PM
I've never used the Mubarak.

I've heard great things about it.

I usually use the St. Ives or Sowter.

SM.

samc
February 12th, 2011, 10:31 PM
Ultimately, it wasn't the protest, but the military coup that forced Mubarak out.
Quiet likely at the behest of the puppet master (the US government).

And in reality, if the military has to use China-like methods to squash protesters, they will as history has shown with nearly every military rule; international opinion be damned. I hope it ends well for the people of Egypt, but history has this annoying habit of repeating itself.
I wish I could say you were wrong, but unfortunately I too believe this to be the case....

samc
February 12th, 2011, 10:52 PM
But, if you really want to task me about it, I'd say that Egypt is crucial to any possible resolution of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.
Every country in region is important to the peace in the region, Egypt's biggest claim is that they are Israel's only friend.

The Egyptian Army chose not to move against the protesters.
What makes you so sure that this was their (the army's) decision not to intervene?

I do think that that the Egyptian Army will support this change. As I see it, they have nothing to lose, and all to gain.
The Egyptian army will support anything the US tells them to support.

John Eppstein
February 12th, 2011, 10:52 PM
The US also had a very close relationship with Mubarak too, but rather than prevent his transgressions, that relationship actually empowered him to make them...at will. This development has the fingerprints of the US all over it, what they did was to take the power from the left hand and put it in the right hand.

If the US government really wanted to help the people of Egypt gain the democracy and freedom from corruption they desire they could easily have told Mubarak and the Army leaders to to comply and it would have been so...

I'm with Sam on this one.

In fact, the US took advantage of Mubarak's regime to do things in Egypt that they couldn't get away with on their own territory, such as interrogations. Is this going to change?:Roll eyes:

DannyTheDimbulb
February 12th, 2011, 11:31 PM
You know something we don't? Is Israel planning on bombing the hell out of Lebanon again?

I don't know. If Lebanon is planning on sending PLO killers to murder Israelis again....that would make for a nice 80ies revival. Just kidding. Besides, I don't think the US left much that would be worth bombing.

But yes, Lebanon, Syria, Iran and fucking Katar are not hybernating either.

DannyTheDimbulb
February 12th, 2011, 11:45 PM
The good news is that Egypt isn't Iran. Or North Korea, whose people have been pushed around for 60 years.

If people in North Korea and Iran had had access to the allmighty Internet 50 years ago, things would have been different. The regimes still run the media. People have no access to real information. Non-violent protestors get killed in broad daylight and nobody seems to care. How are you going to start a revolution from there? Egypt isn't Iran, indeed.

DannyTheDimbulb
February 12th, 2011, 11:52 PM
If the US government really wanted to help the people of Egypt gain the democracy and freedom from corruption they desire they could easily have told Mubarak and the Army leaders to to comply and it would have been so...

True. It's all a bit fishy.

Holm
February 13th, 2011, 12:39 AM
If the US government really wanted to help the people of Egypt gain the democracy and freedom from corruption they desire they could easily have told Mubarak and the Army leaders to to comply and it would have been so...

Interesting. Somehow always just about two views regarding ANYTHING US is doing regarding their foreign policy tend to remain. First is "they are the bringers of freedom to the world and as that everything they do is justified." Second one is "they are imperialistic tyranny and everything they do is to bring misery to the world to serve their own interests and thus need to be condemned." I guess we know what camp you fall in now.

What is truly perplexing is how you, in about 3 posts, managed to reduce the Egyptian revolution into another evidence of scheming and shenigans of American imperialistic foreign policy. I mean, it takes skill.

meLoCo_go
February 13th, 2011, 01:03 AM
What is truly perplexing is how you, in about 3 posts, managed to reduce the Egyptian revolution into another evidence of scheming and shenigans of American imperialistic foreign policy. I mean, it takes skill.
Well, for all we know, Egyptian revolution is evidence of how scheming may actually fail.
US was fine with Mubarak for a long time. With a high uncertainty and many conflicting parties in that region, the next person to head Egypt might be not so pro-American.

Holm
February 13th, 2011, 01:27 AM
Well, for all we know, Egyptian revolution is evidence of how scheming may actually fail.
US was fine with Mubarak for a long time. With a high uncertainty and many conflicting parties in that region, the next person to head Egypt might be not so pro-American.

Well, apparently, at least according to some folks here US first kept Mubarak in power, actively facilitated tyranny and opression of his people, organised the way the military responded to the events unfolding and finally puppet mastered a military coup to remove the guy they kept in power. Dunno, seems kinda convoluted to me even for the skillful puppet master that the US government apparently is. If I was as evil and influential in Egypt as they apparently were I would simply have kept good ole Hosni firmly planted to his seat and been done with it.

Starfucker
February 13th, 2011, 02:47 AM
Looks like there's a lot going on behind the scenes again that we don't know about.

But there's one thing I do know...

All these people got out of their couch to stand up for their rights, and we didn't.

Tim Halligan
February 13th, 2011, 04:37 AM
The first thing that happened after Mubarak stepped down was that his Swiss bank accounts were frozen.



A pity only a small percentage of his fortune was held in Swiss banks.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/8825831/mubarak-hid-billions-abroad/

Cheers,
Tim

nobby
February 13th, 2011, 05:16 AM
This sums it up succinctly:

Quite how much Mubarak has stashed away - and where he has hidden that fortune - in the past 30 years is open to speculation.

John Eppstein
February 13th, 2011, 05:19 AM
Interesting. Somehow always just about two views regarding ANYTHING US is doing regarding their foreign policy tend to remain. First is "they are the bringers of freedom to the world and as that everything they do is justified." Second one is "they are imperialistic tyranny and everything they do is to bring misery to the world to serve their own interests and thus need to be condemned." I guess we know what camp you fall in now.

What is truly perplexing is how you, in about 3 posts, managed to reduce the Egyptian revolution into another evidence of scheming and shenigans of American imperialistic foreign policy. I mean, it takes skill.

Governments are like people - they favor their own self interest. Show me an altruistic government and I'll show you a unicorn.

Bob Olhsson
February 13th, 2011, 06:00 AM
Mubarak and his contemporaries were trained by the Soviet Union and not propped up in power by the U.S. the same way a number of others in the region were. We have given them an immense amount of support in exchange for turning their back on the Soviets and making peace with Israel however this very same regime has ruled Egypt with an iron hand since the 1950s. Needless to say they probably have few friends in the former Soviet Union.

Dave Perry
February 13th, 2011, 09:24 AM
Well, apparently, at least according to some folks here US first kept Mubarak in power, actively facilitated tyranny and opression of his people, organised the way the military responded to the events unfolding and finally puppet mastered a military coup to remove the guy they kept in power. Dunno, seems kinda convoluted to me even for the skillful puppet master that the US government apparently is. If I was as evil and influential in Egypt as they apparently were I would simply have kept good ole Hosni firmly planted to his seat and been done with it.

The "US government" is a bit different than it was 30 years ago. You can't expect our foreign policy to remain the same through five presidents.

Holm
February 13th, 2011, 10:17 AM
The "US government" is a bit different than it was 30 years ago. You can't expect our foreign policy to remain the same through five presidents.

Sarcasm apparently doesn't come across well in written form.

Holm
February 13th, 2011, 10:17 AM
All these people got out of their couch to stand up for their rights, and we didn't.
I did. Back at 1987.

I guess what it boils down to is that a government, ANY government can't really stand against the will of their people, if it really is the will of their whole people. History has proven that time and again. The notion that foreign governments are somehow managing to orchestrate something that to casual observers seem like a will of the whole nation, is beyond ludicrous.

samc
February 13th, 2011, 10:47 AM
Interesting. Somehow always just about two views regarding ANYTHING US is doing regarding their foreign policy tend to remain. First is "they are the bringers of freedom to the world and as that everything they do is justified." Second one is "they are imperialistic tyranny and everything they do is to bring misery to the world to serve their own interests and thus need to be condemned." I guess we know what camp you fall in now.
What is perplexing is how you have 'arrived' at this conclusion without knowing anything about me, how you were able to piece this together from my three posts is truly amazing. Plus, your claim that people who have an opinion on aspects of any American foreign policy only fall into the two categories you made up is a crock....but you said it with such authority it must be right.

What is truly perplexing is how you, in about 3 posts, managed to reduce the Egyptian revolution into another evidence of scheming and shenigans of American imperialistic foreign policy. I mean, it takes skill.
You are more than welcome to use your 'skills' and refute anything I have said, offer some opinions and or facts of your own so that we can all learn something...

samc
February 13th, 2011, 12:32 PM
I did. Back at 1987.

I guess what it boils down to is that a government, ANY government can't really stand against the will of their people, if it really is the will of their whole people. History has proven that time and again.
History has proven that the armed forces are the deciding factor in every internal power struggle, and our history books are littered with proof of this. and if anyone looks closely they might realize that: The Egyptian people started the revolution, but it was the army's refusal to intervene on Mubarak's behalf that was technically responsible for his departure. Had the army stood with him, this revolution would have died the day it started, just like it did in Algeria a few days before.

Mohamed Tantawi who is the head of the Higher Military Council now in control of Egypt was always called "Mubarak's poodle" by junior officers. The BBC reported that:

he has resolutely "opposed both economic and political reforms that he perceives as eroding central government power" - hardly such stuff as revolutions are made on.

There is every possibility that he will simply rebuild the apparatus of autocracy by dispersing superficial powers to a fractured opposition, while restoring the army to its Cold War standing.

Some optimists have invoked the "Turkish model" for Egypt, but recall that the Turkish army has toppled four governments since 1960 and still lurks just under the surface of that country's democratic institutions.


The notion that foreign governments are somehow managing to orchestrate something that to casual observers seem like a will of the whole nation, is beyond ludicrous.
Foreign governments are not orchestrating what the people are doing, they are however orchestrating (to some degree) how events play out, because about $1.5 billion (in military support alone) per year buys a lot of influence. Isn't it puzzling that the US government did not explicitly speak out in favor of of the demonstrators and their wishes.

I think it's ludicrous that with the important relationship between the two countries and with the amount of support given by the US to Egypt, that the US would just sit in the docks and watch things unfold... A history lesson and a crash course in Middle East current affairs is clearly in order. It doesn't require 'skill', but it does require 'some' knowledge of the subject matter...

John Eppstein
February 14th, 2011, 01:57 AM
The "US government" is a bit different than it was 30 years ago. You can't expect our foreign policy to remain the same through five presidents.

PTOOIHGBO!

The government is the same. The figureheads are different.


Meet the new boss, etc.

John Eppstein
February 14th, 2011, 02:00 AM
I did. Back at 1987.

I guess what it boils down to is that a government, ANY government can't really stand against the will of their people, if it really is the will of their whole people. History has proven that time and again. The notion that foreign governments are somehow managing to orchestrate something that to casual observers seem like a will of the whole nation, is beyond ludicrous.

The thing is that in these situations the "will of the people" is generally a rather fleeting thing that quickly gets seized and taken advantage of by a new crew of powermongers. The faces and rhetoric change. Human nature doesn't.

People are nasty monkeys.

John Eppstein
February 14th, 2011, 02:05 AM
History has proven that the armed forces are the deciding factor in every internal power struggle, and our history books are littered with proof of this. and if anyone looks closely they might realize that: The Egyptian people started the revolution, but it was the army's refusal to intervene on Mubarak's behalf that was technically responsible for his departure. Had the army stood with him, this revolution would have died the day it started, just like it did in Algeria a few days before.

Mohamed Tantawi who is the head of the Higher Military Council now in control of Egypt was always called "Mubarak's poodle" by junior officers. The BBC reported that:





Foreign governments are not orchestrating what the people are doing, they are however orchestrating (to some degree) how events play out, because about $1.5 billion (in military support alone) per year buys a lot of influence. Isn't it puzzling that the US government did not explicitly speak out in favor of of the demonstrators and their wishes.

I think it's ludicrous that with the important relationship between the two countries and with the amount of support given by the US to Egypt, that the US would just sit in the docks and watch things unfold... A history lesson and a crash course in Middle East current affairs is clearly in order. It doesn't require 'skill', but it does require 'some' knowledge of the subject matter...

All they're doing is avoiding another Iranian situation. If the army had not done what they did when they did it the situation could easily have spiraled totally out of control as it did in Iran.

nobby
February 15th, 2011, 03:17 AM
Isn't it puzzling that the US government did not explicitly speak out in favor of of the demonstrators and their wishes.



"The fact that the administration has gone from the idea of Egyptian authorities can do no wrong to advocating an immediate transition to democracy in a matter of days is incredible," Campbell said.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/02/13/bloomberg1376-LGGZT50UQVI901-7R6OON68D9MGACA334N05ODSTP.DTL&ao=2

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samc
February 15th, 2011, 08:19 AM
You forgot to include this part of the article:

Speaking after Mubarak's resignation Feb. 11, Obama praised the "moral force" of peaceful protests "that bent the arc of history."

"There are very few moments in our lives where we have the privilege to witness history taking place," Obama said. "The people of Egypt have spoken, their voices have been heard, and Egypt will never be the same."

While Obama's words have been clear and consistent, the message was muddied by multiple U.S. officials who reacted to confusing events in sometimes contradictory language.

On Jan. 25, Clinton said the Egyptian government was "stable." Two days later, Biden declared Mubarak was not a dictator and needn't resign.

There was obviously a lot of behind the scenes 'wheeling and dealing', but the government did NOT publicly and explicitly support the movement in the weeks before Mubarak stepped down... and as far as I know they still have not really done so.

weedywet
February 15th, 2011, 08:55 AM
It's been theorised that part of this has to do with the fact that in the middle east, being scene as doing "what the Americans want" isn't exactly a popular position.

It's possible, at least, that the Obama admin is trying to not put a curse on the state of affairs by "endorsing" it.

Holm
February 15th, 2011, 10:29 AM
It's been theorised that part of this has to do with the fact that in the middle east, being scene as doing "what the Americans want" isn't exactly a popular position.

It's possible, at least, that the Obama admin is trying to not put a curse on the state of affairs by "endorsing" it.

That was what I gathered aswell.