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Dave Perry
February 13th, 2011, 08:30 AM
..."clearly" a better guitarist in the 60's than Jimi Hendrix?

Was Mitch Mitchell a mediocre drummer?

According to Ginger Baker, both of those things are true.

Help me out here.

Am I missing something?

Or is this...you know, more of a Ginger Baker issue?

Knastratt
February 13th, 2011, 12:16 PM
Maureen Tucker sucked. But in a working fashion. :weedstore:

Dave Perry
February 13th, 2011, 12:26 PM
I just watched the Cream documentary on Netflix and I came away with three impressions: Eric Clapton is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet (if you ever have the pleasure), Jack Bruce is coy and seems to have some sly and mischievous game going on underneath the surface, and Ginger is a bit of a sour old man who bitches about almost everyone. And it's pretty clear he would like to strangle Jack, or at least slap him silly.

Waltz Mastering
February 13th, 2011, 04:35 PM
..."clearly" a better guitarist in the 60's than Jimi Hendrix?Imo both were/are exceptional guitarist JH was simply more inventive/innovative..both channeled the blues...JH took it to another level.

Was Mitch Mitchell a mediocre drummer?
Certainly wasn't that flashy but everything he played gelled with Hendrix.. like a glove...seems more rooted in jazz than rock.
Eric Clapton is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet (if you ever have the pleasure), I met him backstage at a show and that's the impression I got.
Jack Bruce is coy and seems to have some sly and mischievous game going on underneath the surface, and Ginger is a bit of a sour old man who bitches about almost everyone. And it's pretty clear he would like to strangle Jack, or at least slap him silly. I can see that.

overeasy
February 13th, 2011, 06:12 PM
For one thing, we're talking about an era/context when artists took more chances. Consequently they would often reach heights of dizzying genius, and just as often misstep. What is "better?"

Most Cream-era Clapton playing kills me. Hendrix is much more hit-or-miss for my tastes. I think songwriting comes largely into play. Cream were better writers, IMHO. That gives every player involved an advantage.

In the vacuum of discussions like "who's the better player," I honestly don't know.

Cosmic Pig
February 13th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Meh. Opining on such things shows more about the limited mind of the opiner.

TheNetStudio
February 14th, 2011, 12:32 AM
..."clearly" a better guitarist in the 60's than Jimi Hendrix?

Was Mitch Mitchell a mediocre drummer?

According to Ginger Baker, both of those things are true.

Help me out here.

Am I missing something?

Or is this...you know, more of a Ginger Baker issue?

He was clearly a DIFFERENT guitarist. That's all.

I got an earful of this last night. We played a local bar, and as per my usual lack of good judgment, I typically engage people at the breaks to see if they're enjoying the show.

The conversation usually veers towards how good of a guitar player I am compared to their brother, sister, cousin, neighbor, pet snail, etc...

And I have to ask over and over HOW DID YOU LIKE THE BAND. I COULDN'T CARE LESS how "good" or not good I am.

DID YOU ENJOY THE MUSIC!!!

If so, does it matter whether I'm a little better than your cousin, but not as good as your cat?

Oh... They did enjoy the music, we were asked on the spot to play their next open date.

Feels good when that happens.

What were we talking about?

CloseToTheEdge
February 14th, 2011, 02:19 AM
Jimi Hendrix vs. Eric Clapton
Jimmy Page vs. Pete Townsend
Rick Wakeman vs. Keith Emerson

All argued to death in our early teens...

Cage fight with Katy Perry vs. Lady Gaga? Interested.

Knife fight with Justin Bieber vs. 'Lil Wayne? Absolutely interested.

Dave Perry
February 14th, 2011, 03:08 AM
Knife fight with Justin Bieber vs. 'Lil Wayne? Absolutely interested.

Except they're probably on the same label.

binaural turbine
February 14th, 2011, 04:21 AM
Except they're probably on the same label.

hey, one can dream, can't they? :lol:

Dave Perry
February 14th, 2011, 06:53 AM
Bieber is probably on whatever label Usher is on, since Usher "discovered" him. My statement above was facetious since Wayne is on Young Money, but that's a sub-label owned by God knows who...British Petroleum most likely.

PRobb
February 16th, 2011, 06:51 PM
Claptn/Hendrix- we're talking about two two the all time greats. The comparison is silly. What's better- pizza pie or apple pie?

One thing does have to be said. Clapton was more consistent live. Hendrix frequently let showmanship trump musicianship on stage. Clapton was more a stand up and play guy.

nobby
February 16th, 2011, 08:08 PM
What Waltz and Probb said. I'd add that they admired each other's work.

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G. Hoffman
February 17th, 2011, 12:29 AM
Cage fight with Katy Perry vs. Lady Gaga? Interested.


Not particularly interested. Now, make it a naked jello wrestling match, and I might be interested!

As far as Hendrix v. Clapton - WTF? How is a, what, 72 year old man still rehashing an argument that was stupid when I was 13?


Gabriel

Johnny
February 17th, 2011, 02:08 AM
Baker is nuts.

transmetropolitan
February 17th, 2011, 12:58 PM
On the Clapton as really nice guy stuff… I think he very well may have BECOME a really nice guy. That I can well believe. If you’ve read his autobiography, I think it’s pretty clear that for long stretches of his life he was very probably a fucking asshole. That he is candid about it all… yeah, I can believe he is a great guy nowadays.

To me it’s kind of funny that Clapton vs Hendrix is the one that most often gets debated. For me the 2 eminent guitarists from that 60s blues scene are Peter Green and Paul Kossoff. They are the ones who really can move me most with their playing.

It’s clearly redundant to argue about ‘better’ over something that is inherently subjective. With that said I prefer Hendrix personally.

Unlike Hendrix, Clapton’s best known work is IMO really not his best. For me personally, listening to stuff like I Shot The Sheriff and Wonderful Tonight is like pulling teeth. Even Tears In Heaven, that whole acoustic album… it doesn’t do a lot for me.

PRobb
February 17th, 2011, 05:31 PM
Hendrix influenced the heavy/hard rock player whereas Clapton influenced the more mainstream pop/rock player.


I don't know about that. Funkychickenman mentioned the Mayall album and it's hard to over state the influence of that one. He pretty much invented modern lead guitar on that one.
Just for starters, it was the first time someone plugged a Les Paul into a Marshal, cranked it up and got that long singing sustain.

ManRoom Studio
February 18th, 2011, 01:33 AM
..."clearly" a better guitarist in the 60's than Jimi Hendrix?

Was Mitch Mitchell a mediocre drummer?

According to Ginger Baker, both of those things are true.

Help me out here.

Am I missing something?

Or is this...you know, more of a Ginger Baker issue?

Clapton didn't agree with Baker either - at least as far as Hendrix was concerned - can't say about Mitch Mitchell - sounds like a little professional jealousy. Funny thing about Baker though, when I was knee-high to a married grasshopper, the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis trio sat in with a 17-piece jazz band I was in - I remembered raving about Baker to Mel Lewis, who was clearly humoring me - I believe he said something to the effect of it being easy to sound "great" when you've got a drum waiting wherever you throw a stick (or maybe that was someone else). After hearing what Mel did on a 3-piece kit that night . . . well, let's just say I was less impressed with Baker after that.

As an aside, and relating to the 'giving bass players their props' thread here, Richie Davis was playing double bass - Thad Jones introduced him as Richard "The Lionheart" Davis. While the trio was performing, our double bassist was off stage watching him and quite literally tearing out his hair - he had two fists full of hair and was yanking on it with mouth wide open.

The ManRoom

nobby
February 18th, 2011, 04:29 AM
Band of Gypsies @ Fillmore East New Years Eve 1969-70

41 years later it still blows my mind.

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G. Hoffman
February 18th, 2011, 06:27 AM
However, given the choice, who is better, I'd choose Jimmy Page over both of them!!!! :grin::Wink:

Jeff Beck is better than them all.


Just for starters, it was the first time someone plugged a Les Paul into a Marshal, cranked it up and got that long singing sustain.

Not so much that, as he was the first guy to tell the egg head recording engineers to fuck off when they told him to turn down. Now, he may have been one of the first to do it with a Marshall - there hadn't been that many made before his - but people had done similar things with Bassmans and such. Just not on record.


Gabriel

G. Hoffman
February 18th, 2011, 06:52 AM
Guess neither one of you guys have heard of Albert and Freddie King...... Who invented the sound that Clapton was copying.

I used to be quite fond of Albert King. But both of them had problems with recording engineers who didn't understand what they were doing until the engineers heard Clapton. Listen to Albert King's earlier recordings, and they are much more tame. Even with his Volt recordings, he wasn't pushing his amp as hard as Clapton tended to push.

And they weren't using MARSHALS. Not that there is much difference between Clapton's Marshal and their amps, but....


Gabriel

Dave Perry
February 18th, 2011, 09:00 AM
Had Hendrix lived till now and gone through a boring 1970's and 1980's period and done nothing of note since (apart from an MTV unplugged album and a hit song about his sadly deceased son) I don't think he would be the legend that he is.

I agree...Hendrix in the 80's would have been, well, just...weird.

Dave Perry
February 18th, 2011, 09:05 AM
After hearing what Mel did on a 3-piece kit that night . . . well, let's just say I was less impressed with Baker after that.



Just to clarify, I think Ginger Baker was/is an excellent drummer. But Mitchell did some outstanding things too, at least on recordings I've heard.

Jimi Hendrix was a very talented all-around musician, maybe better than Clapton in the rounded sense of being a writer as well as a guitar slinger.

I agree that he could get sloppy on stage---maybe it was the drugs and the foofy outfits distracting him (not to mention the lighter fluid), who knows.

Dave Perry
February 18th, 2011, 09:08 AM
On the Clapton as really nice guy stuff… I think he very well may have BECOME a really nice guy. That I can well believe. If you’ve read his autobiography, I think it’s pretty clear that for long stretches of his life he was very probably a fucking asshole. That he is candid about it all… yeah, I can believe he is a great guy nowadays.



I'm not sure what you mean by "asshole". He was strung out on drugs in the 70's, so maybe his personality degenerated somewhat during that time. I know from watching the interviews in that Cream documentary that the bad blood is almost entirely between Baker and Bruce, though. As far as I could tell, Clapton stayed out of it or tried to play peacemaker for the most part.

bobzilla77
February 18th, 2011, 06:37 PM
I feel that Hendrix was the more rounded player, more innovative and FASTER (always a bonus for rock guitarists). Plus (and this is important), he DIED YOUNG! Had Hendrix lived till now and gone through a boring 1970's and 1980's period and done nothing of note since (apart from an MTV unplugged album and a hit song about his sadly deceased son) I don't think he would be the legend that he is. Hendrix influenced the heavy/hard rock player whereas Clapton influenced the more mainstream pop/rock player.

Or to turn it around, it is interesting to think of how Clapton would be viewed today if he had died around 1970.

For this listener, he squandered a lot of the good will built up through his sixties work by the time the eighties were over. I just saw him with Winwood last year & found it kind of dull. He's very correct but rarely thrilling. If all I knew of him was Bluesbreakers, Yardbirds, Cream, Derek and Blind Faith I'd probably rate him more highly than I do.

Even if we limited the question to sixties output I still feel Hendrix went a lot farther, and into a direction that I like better. He does take influence from Clapton and Townshend in certain ways, but he took those ideas back to the Chitlin Circuit and came up with something that was very different from anything the English guys were thinking about.

Ginger Baker is a raging egomaniac and his pronouncements should come with the disclaimer "for entertainment purposes only." Cool drummer, admittedly. But not the greatest that ever walked the earth like he seems to regard himself.

clarito
February 21st, 2011, 08:18 AM
Personally, Clapton post Layla, for me is mostly BORING! Not my cup of tea at all.:

Agreed. The Derek and the Dominos record is the most recent Clapton record I truly enjoy.

Hendrix in the 80's would have been, well, just...weird.

Oh, man....

Dave Perry
February 21st, 2011, 09:24 AM
I can can see him dueting with Phil Collins.

Purple Sussudio anyone...? :icon_eek: :headpalm:

PRobb
February 21st, 2011, 05:59 PM
I used to be quite fond of Albert King. But both of them had problems with recording engineers who didn't understand what they were doing until the engineers heard Clapton. Listen to Albert King's earlier recordings, and they are much more tame. Even with his Volt recordings, he wasn't pushing his amp as hard as Clapton tended to push.

And they weren't using MARSHALS. Not that there is much difference between Clapton's Marshal and their amps, but....


Gabriel
The Marshalls were brand new. The earlier recordings had a more Fender tone.

G. Hoffman
February 21st, 2011, 09:37 PM
The Marshalls were brand new. The earlier recordings had a more Fender tone.


I guess I forgot the sarcasm tag.


Gabriel