Recording/Mixing Horns [Archive]

malice

February 13th, 2007, 02:10 PM

So your first choice would be to track them all at once?
Kind of treat the section as one instrument?

Most certainly. That would be my first choice.

Sometimes, for several reasons, it is difficult to do it like this.

But in the end, I really think that recording them separately is no different than recording a drummer track by track. Like he does the snare, then the bd etc ...

Not the best option musically.

malice

seagate

February 13th, 2007, 02:29 PM

So your first choice would be to track them all at once?
Kind of treat the section as one instrument?

Talking about horns...

:Wink:

Watershed

February 13th, 2007, 04:53 PM

GTBannah

February 13th, 2007, 08:57 PM

I can certainly see the wisdom.

In my situation, 2 people are playing 4 or 5 parts.... so I guess still get them tracking together as much as possible.
Trumpet and alto together, then trombone and tenor together. etc.

Seagate... The school year has just started, so he's a little busy right now. It will happen ;)
I record in a bed room so, like you, I record two at a time. However, I like to do Trumpet and Trombone together, then Alto and Tenor, then Bari. I find that the family pairs help with intonation, especially with the Trombone (no keys or valves, only ears). Where time and opportunity permit, I schedule a rehearsal with the whole section , so everyboby has a feel for the feel before we record.

I'd like build a thirteen piece arrangement like that .... thirteen players, two at a time, and see how it sounds/works.

The real reason for starting the thread .... Oooops!:Redface: was, i like the sound Alan Silvestri got back in the 70s when he did the sound tracks for CHIPS. Remember those? I know I'm dating myself here, but I'v been seeing the re-runs lately and I like the sound he/the engineer got. In your face, but still "behind the speakers". I guess that has to do with Reverb/Delay , right? I'm trying to understand that aspect of Horn recording/Mixing.

Then there is the Jerry Hey sound ....

.... and on and on it goes .... :grin:

Watershed

February 13th, 2007, 11:42 PM

I like to do Trumpet and Trombone together, then Alto and Tenor, then Bari. I find that the family pairs help with intonation, especially with the Trombone (no keys or valves, only ears).

I'd prefer that also, but I only have one brass player and one reed player... so that's a bit difficult :Coolio:

otek

February 14th, 2007, 03:20 AM

I like the sound Alan Silvestri got back in the 70s when he did the sound tracks for CHIPS.

I think a lot of that sound (also, the old Mike Post soundtracks, etc.) came from the way the studios sounded at that time.

I also think most of those recordings were using the whole horn section live.

GTBannah

February 14th, 2007, 06:43 AM

....(also, the old Mike Post soundtracks, etc.) ....

Give me an examle. I only know "L.A. Law", and that was from the 80s.

malice

February 14th, 2007, 10:44 AM

I record in a bed room so, like you, I record two at a time. However, I like to do Trumpet and Trombone together, then Alto and Tenor, then Bari. I find that the family pairs help with intonation, especially with the Trombone (no keys or valves, only ears). Where time and opportunity permit, I schedule a rehearsal with the whole section , so everyboby has a feel for the feel before we record.

I'd like build a thirteen piece arrangement like that .... thirteen players, two at a time, and see how it sounds/works.

The real reason for starting the thread .... Oooops!:Redface: was, i like the sound Alan Silvestri got back in the 70s when he did the sound tracks for CHIPS. Remember those? I know I'm dating myself here, but I'v been seeing the re-runs lately and I like the sound he/the engineer got. In your face, but still "behind the speakers". I guess that has to do with Reverb/Delay , right? I'm trying to understand that aspect of Horn recording/Mixing.

Then there is the Jerry Hey sound ....

.... and on and on it goes .... :grin:

Then you're gonna be stuck with close miking.

If you had a big room where the whole section could have played together, you could have tricked the effect by recording each musicians "in place" with one couple of mikes. You set up chairs in circle and ask the musician to stand where they would have stood if in full section, then you blend all the stereotracks.

I do this with strings when I don't have the budget to hire a full orchestra, it works.

malice

malice

February 14th, 2007, 10:45 AM

Now you might want advise for close miking ...

do you ?

malice

GTBannah

February 14th, 2007, 02:10 PM

Now you might want advise for close miking ...
No, I'm O.K. about close micing. Thanx!
Then you're gonna be stuck with close miking.

If you had a big room where the whole section could have played together, you could have tricked the effect by recording each musicians "in place" with one couple of mikes. You set up chairs in circle and ask the musician to stand where they would have stood if in full section, then you blend all the stereotracks.

I do this with strings when I don't have the budget to hire a full orchestra, it works.

malice
.... it's this part that I'm not getting.

You say, record each musician "in place" (in stereo, I assume), and then ask them to play as a section? Or, do you mean, ask them to play as a section, while stereo micing the individual horns? But then, how does the "circle thing" come in, if they are to stand weher they would if they were in a section? Try again for me ....

Watershed

February 14th, 2007, 03:03 PM

Now you might want advise for close miking ...

do you ?

malice

I'll certainly take that advice thanks Malice :grin:

Brendo

February 14th, 2007, 03:04 PM

malice

February 14th, 2007, 03:15 PM

one or two musos, record them doing 1st trumpet, say, sitting in the 1st trumpet chair.... when they do 2nd trumpet, get them to move around the mics and into the 2nd trumpet chairs... etc... until you have all the parts recorded... i guess?

Yes that is what I meant. I should drink my morning cofee before tryin to explain complicate things. That way, you have a natural pan and the horns will sound slightly different from each other because they will interact differently with the room.

Do you get the picture now GTBannah ?

malice

Fulcrum

February 14th, 2007, 03:56 PM

Give me an examle. I only know "L.A. Law", and that was from the 80s.

Here you go. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006236/) Mike Post in a nutshell.

Unless I am very much mistaken he did more than just two or three episodes of CHiPS, The Rockford Files, and Baa Baa Black Sheep. I think he also did the theme from the NBC Mystery Movie anthology.

GTBannah

February 14th, 2007, 06:17 PM

Yes that is what I meant. I should drink my morning cofee before tryin to explain complicate things. That way, you have a natural pan and the horns will sound slightly different from each other because they will interact differently with the room.

Do you get the picture now GTBannah ?

malice
The standing where they would have stood if in full section, and the chairs in a circle had me. I guess it was a bit too early for me too .... :grin: , but I got you now.
I would try to have different players alternate the parts too, like having player "A" and "B" do Trpts 1 and 3 respectively, then have "B" and 'A" do Trpts 2 and 4 respectively. The same with T'bones and Saxes.

Thanx for the replies.

Fulcrum, thanx for the Mike post link. I'll give it a read over time.:)

tptman

February 14th, 2007, 07:37 PM

If you are close micing the same guys playing different parts, you might consider using different equipment from one part to the next.

Example: tptman is playing tpt1, tpt2, then tpt3.

Maybe a royer or other room mic for all tracks, but close mics:
tpt1 - condenser
tpt2 - 57
tpt3 - 421

This helps to make it sound more like a section of guys playing, rather than a single person doing all of it.

When I'm doing a whole tpt section by myself, I actually play on different types of horns/mouthpieces so the sound is a little different from part to part, and play from different places in the room. Otherwise, it just sounds weird.

otek

February 15th, 2007, 06:15 AM

Here you go. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006236/) Mike Post in a nutshell.

Unless I am very much mistaken he did more than just two or three episodes of CHiPS, The Rockford Files, and Baa Baa Black Sheep. I think he also did the theme from the NBC Mystery Movie anthology.

My faves are "Hill Street Blues" and "Magnum P.I.". :D

I learned the solo to H.S.B. (Larry Carlton) back when I was still trying to play guitar. Unfortunately, the TV version has the solo edited out.

GTBannah

February 15th, 2007, 02:43 PM

If you are close micing the same guys playing different parts, you might consider using different equipment from one part to the next.

Example: tptman is playing tpt1, tpt2, then tpt3.

Maybe a royer or other room mic for all tracks, but close mics:
tpt1 - condenser
tpt2 - 57
tpt3 - 421

Got that right! However, I'm a little leery about having Horn players near my AKG C414 and BPM condensers :D , but, 57s and 421s, no problem. I have two of each.

I am actually toying with the idea of using the condensers as room mics as an experiment.

Holm

February 15th, 2007, 06:01 PM

Got that right! However, I'm a little leery about having Horn players near my AKG C414 and BPM condensers :D

Why? I track horns all the time thru my 414-s, they take shitloads of SPL. Sound great aswell and I have an exceptionally anal producer that wants to differently adjust the horn section balances section by section so I use them allot in fig8 mode that gets me awful amount of separation considering the dudes are 2 feet apart of each other usually.

malice

February 15th, 2007, 06:08 PM

Why? I track horns all the time thru my 414-s, they take shitloads of SPL. Sound great aswell and I have an exceptionally anal producer that wants to differently adjust the horn section balances section by section so I use them allot in fig8 mode that gets me awful amount of separation considering the dudes are 2 feet apart of each other usually.

True, we're talking around 160db SPL depending on what model of 414, that's comparable to dynamic handling. GTBannah, you won't arm your mike at all.

malice

otek

February 15th, 2007, 06:33 PM

Another mic I really love for horns is the Electro-Voice RE-20.

And yes, no problem with SPL around the 414.

Thumper

February 16th, 2007, 10:01 AM

I mix a TOP style band live quite often. It's fun.

My saving grace has been a TC Electronics stereo Triple C. Saves my ass so many times, it's not funny...

5 horns, bari, tenor, alto, bone, and t-pet. All of the players are dynamic beyond belief, especially the tenor player, that I swear can play higher than the crazy screaming guy in saturday night lives's band. The trumpet is also kinda hard to mix in, because when the mic is 3" away from the bell, there is so much proximity effect happening, that when you get it to sound good for normal playing, as soon as he starts to play loud and high, it just hurts.

This is where the triple C comes in handy. I have it set up to automatically take the loud, ear piercing high notes down, and effect nothing else. Then, as soon as there aren't any more ear-splitting, cause of baby crying high notes left, it goes back to normal with full clarity.

Granted, live is waaay different that studio stuff. Better mics, better room, players seem to be focused more on proper playing and technique, vs syncro'd dance moves and looking pretty.... But, I have to say that this multiband compressor thingy really makes things sound glues together.

I don't know if I've helped at all, but i enjoy typing. So read my blabbering and shut up.:Twisted:

otek

February 16th, 2007, 11:43 PM

Granted, live is waaay different that studio stuff. Better mics, better room, players seem to be focused more on proper playing and technique, vs syncro'd dance moves and looking pretty....

I remember seeing the DVDs from the Frank Zappa 1988 "Broadway The Hard Way" tour, and how all five horn players had an RCA 77 in front of them.... Granted, it's the exception to the rule. :D

tptman

February 21st, 2007, 09:19 AM

Another mic I really love for horns is the Electro-Voice RE-20.

And yes, no problem with SPL around the 414.

The RE-20 is my favorite mic for Bari Sax, hands down. I'd take it over a U67 or U47 in that application. Works really great on Bass Bone as well.

con mucho gusto

February 27th, 2007, 04:07 PM

441 is nice too..great for bone, pretty damn good for most trumpet things.

GTBannah

February 28th, 2007, 12:00 PM

441 is nice too..great for bone, pretty damn good for most trumpet things.
How far is the Trumpet bell from the C414, a foot maybe? (Nervous)

Thumper

February 28th, 2007, 12:45 PM

How far is the Trumpet bell from the C414, a foot maybe? (Nervous)

You're not going to blow your mic up.

If the little Beta 98 capsules can handle the spl, your 1" capsule will be just fine. This isn't the case with every mic with a 1" capsule, I'm just trying to put it into perspective for you.

otek

March 1st, 2007, 04:56 PM

How far is the Trumpet bell from the C414, a foot maybe? (Nervous)

About a foot or so works.

And FWIW I've used it on trombone as well (probably worse than trumpet in most cases), and it's not even close to overloading.

Brendo

March 7th, 2007, 02:22 PM

Tim Halligan

March 7th, 2007, 04:19 PM

Ok, I need to record a pair of trumpets... would it be best for me to record them once together, once together then again with them playing each others part, or twice playing their own part only... or any other variation?

What the demo appears to be aiming for is a Mariachi-style of section...so you only need to record the pair once. Any more will kill it stone dead.

Rammstein pulled this stunt on their last album with a track called "Te Quiero Puta" if you feel like researching "trumpets in a hard rock milleu"...

Cheers,
Tim

malice

March 7th, 2007, 09:28 PM

Ok, I need to record a pair of trumpets... would it be best for me to record them once together, once together then again with them playing each others part, or twice playing their own part only... or any other variation?

http://68.146.204.100/brendo/fightwtrumpets.mp3

Record them at once, one mike, mono.

Doubling is not so great in general. If you need to beef it up absolutly,

1) make them swap their position (and charts, if they are not playing the same part)

or

2) change the mike

or

3) triple them instead of doubling them, eventully using step 1 and 2

good luck

malice

Holm

March 7th, 2007, 10:06 PM

1) make them swap their position (and charts, if they are not playing the same part)

or

2) change the mike

or

3) triple them instead of doubling them, eventully using step 1 and 2

good luck

malice

also a thought.

that might be hard to do, but at least TRY to make them play each other's instruments. Hate and screaming will ensue when you suggest it but at least with violins it works wonders and is worth it a million times. I haven't tried it with horns as I usually have 4 to 6 good players with good arrangements, but I do it regularly, when I have a "budget orchestra violin overdub" recording session with only 3 violin players and the producer wants to have a 15piece ensemble sound. Nothing else works like players swapping violins and charts at the same time.

The players will always bitch and moan and tell that they can't play with each others instruments (and that is the WHOLE POINT, all those tiny intonation discrepancies), but they CAN and the end result is so much better that there is no comparison.

malice

March 7th, 2007, 10:16 PM

also a thought.

that might be hard to do, but at least TRY to make them play each other's instruments. Hate and screaming will ensue when you suggest it but at least with violins it works wonders and is worth it a million times. I haven't tried it with horns as I usually have 4 to 6 good players with good arrangements, but I do it regularly, when I have a "budget orchestra violin overdub" recording session with only 3 violin players and the producer wants to have a 15piece ensemble sound. Nothing else works like players swapping violins and charts at the same time.

The players will always bitch and moan and tell that they can't play with each others instruments (and that is the WHOLE POINT, all those tiny intonation discrepancies), but they CAN and the end result is so much better that there is no comparison.

I think the probability to convince them to swap their wives is greater, but you can always try that.

malice

Holm

March 7th, 2007, 10:26 PM

I think the probability to convince them to swap their wives is greater, but you can always try that.

malice

I've done it successfully many times with many different players :Twisted: (the violin swapping, not the wives swapping...)

malice

March 7th, 2007, 10:32 PM

I've done it successfully many times with many different players :Twisted: (the violin swapping, not the wives swapping...)

Violins swaping comes third, wives comes second.

Trumpet swaping is the shit. Once you done that, you're ready to reincarnate into something like a cow or Roger Nichols, and reach Nirvana the life after.

Good luck in that endeavour :D

malice

Brendo

March 7th, 2007, 11:09 PM

Cool, so two trumpets, one mic, mono, one track... it's a shame I don't have a figure 8 in my own setup so I can have them facing each other with the mic in the middle or something. How would you position them in this instance?

Holm

March 8th, 2007, 01:07 AM

Cool, so two trumpets, one mic, mono, one track...How would you position them in this instance?

Yeah, I wouldn't overanalyse this all that much, I'd have the dudes standing side by side and go from there. Players of the classical instruments tend to be usually a bit better than your average punkrockers and don't like to fuck around much. They expect to come in, have the mic ready, have a pair of cans, good mix instantly in them and hope to get home after 3 takes. They aren't your typical "dude I need MY sound first, lets fuck with the amp a couple of hours more" guitar players.

Get them in the room, point the mic somewhere to their general direction, if you instantly dislike what you hear, adjust and repeat, though no more than 1 correction per session if you can possibly avoid it.

ffaudio

March 8th, 2007, 02:08 AM

It is important to know several parameters in order to be able to help you efficiently.

1) solo horns or section
2) style of music
3) what type of horns
4) quality of the room

etc ...

malice

Well this is coming up for me in a couple of weeks, so I'm here to ask advice, too.

1) A section.
2) Ska.
3) Trumpet and Trombone.
4) Good sounding room. Very live.

GTBannah

March 13th, 2007, 06:11 PM

I would sit them about six feet laterally apart, facing inward at a 30-45 degree angle, and setreo mike the room as it's "lively", and use that as part of the "reverb".

Ska!!! Where are you located?

ffaudio

March 13th, 2007, 08:19 PM

Seattle. :)

malice

March 13th, 2007, 08:53 PM

Seattle. :)

Same location as tptman ...

If I were you ...

hmmmm

malice

malice

March 13th, 2007, 09:00 PM

btw, given your good sounding room, style and everything, I would put a nice mic in omni before the section and move on.

mono is cool btw, try it.

As I said earlier, if you need to beef up, triple instead of double. Or double with changing the mike.

malice

Brendo

March 30th, 2007, 07:33 AM

ok, any specific notes on headphones? i know i sure as fuck can't play trombone with earplugs in, but i can't say i ever tried with headphones.

closed headphones to prevent spill, obviously... one ear off? or both sides on?

Tim Halligan

March 30th, 2007, 10:51 AM

closed headphones to prevent spill, obviously... one ear off? or both sides on?

Whatever they are comfortable with.

If they need to hear each other better, go with one ear off...but they may be comfortable with both 'on' depending on the foldback balance you give 'em... :D

Cheers,
Tim