Reverb balancing levels : your method

[Olivier le Castor]

Hi,

I'm surely not the one in the void but I dare expose myself and ask a few explanations on balancing reverb levels in the mix.
I'm not mixing a lot of "live" music but mostly beats / loops.
I'm usually starting like this :

-gate or plate on BD
-other rythmic elements : same verb or room
-ryhtm instruments : less room than drums
-vocals : hall / Chamber
-Bckg vocals : more hall than on vocals
-Lead instruments : less room than ryhtm inst / same as bckg

What do you guys think ?

Peace,
O

[jord]

I couldn't give you any methodology that I would have as far as reverb goes, because I don't have any methodology. After watching MiLaR about a 1,000 or so times already, I am sort of trying by example in this case and go from there. I'll set up 2 plates, 2 rooms and 2 halls (1 long and 1 short of each) on my bus sends. As to how they'll sound, is song dependent.

As far as sending to them, I often try to go for feel in the mix. I spent so many years doing it wrong in the sense that I was trying to listen for the reverb (many of my audio engineering friends kept trying to tell me that if I could hear it, it was too much).

jord

[Charles Dye]

I find that creating depth + space in a mix can be easier than it may seem @ first. Basically, the rule I use with reverb is that it does not require many or all the instruments to have reverb on them to create the illusion of a large space.

Literally 1 or 2 instruments in a mix feeding into that mix's largest reverb is all that is needed to define the size of the entire mix. With other instruments feeding into the medium + short verbs. And then a lot of the remaining tracks will often be left dry.

The large reverb on the selected few tracks creates what I call the back wall of the mix, and all the other instruments fit inside that hall or room the large verb has defined.

Hope this helps.

[Fulcrum]

For my own taste, unless I'm intentionally going for a DSOTM wash, if I can hear it, it's too loud.

I'll bring it up to where I can hear it, then scale it back to the point where I can merely feel it.

[Olivier le Castor]

Thanks Charles for dropping by !
About predelay, ryhtm needs none most of the time but for other instruments in the "medium" and "large" field, do you have a simple way to tune it to the song ?
Best,
O.

[eagan]

[Quick editorial/proofreading note: the word is "rhythm".]

I'll throw my bit in here since I tend to really like reverb, a real live reverb monger, I am.

I don't think there is any really simple and all purpose answer to this kind of stuff. It all depends. What might be way too much on one thing might be not nearly enough on another thing, you know? And on any one given mix, you might have violent disagreement on that between two different people.

Being a lover of big reverb on a lot of things, I've figured out some stuff over time, often from logging experience experimenting with my own and overdoing a lot.

Charles points out something that's a major factor, and easily overlooked. Even if you're going for gigantic and expansive, you usually don't need everything fed heavily into reverb. Selected parts sent to reverb can give a sense of those large, expansive spaces, without cramming so much through reverb that it all turns to mush. That idea that Charles pointed out is worth repeating and emphasizing. Carefully picking and choosing what's sent to a reverb and what's kept dead bone dry can make the difference between a magic mix or turning it all to sludge.

Rhythmic/percussive stuff and reverb can be really tricky, and obviously it depends very much on the reverb itself. We're all incredibly lucky these days to have such a wealth of options available in the reverb department working in DAW world. That's a thread by itself. In short, some reverbs work well with that stuff, others will turn things into pinging, popping, ringing crap (and this is an area where the idea "there's nothing like a real acoustic space" gets some supporting evidence).

But as far as general methods go, following up on what Fulcrum already said, I do believe it's an important step to spend some time listening to a particular part in solo while playing with reverb. Like anything else, final decisions should never be made that way, but reverb adjustments made while with a part soloed can help in stopping yourself from overcooking it.

You'll start to realize, much sooner, if you might be going too far with the reverb on a particular part, if you have it in solo and can clearly hear the reverb return coming back at you without other stuff in the mix masking it. You'll reach a point where you think "oh, man, that's too much" much sooner this way.

And, of course, there's always that little saying "if in doubt, leave it out".


JLE

[Olivier le Castor]

Hi,

So you would adjust reverb for a track when mixing with the other elements, not in solo ?
Cheers,
O

[Santiago]

Usually plate reverbs are my favorite for drums.:Coolio:



Anyone has any special reverb panning tricks on drums?

[Pimp-X]

Without trying to thief anyone's marketing tag - but when it sounds right, it's right!

[Fulcrum]

So you would adjust reverb for a track when mixing with the other elements, not in solo ?

This probably wasn't intended for me, but I'll answer anyway in case it happens to work for anyone else. Deep breath.

Eventually, it's going to come down to how well the reverb integrates into the mix as a whole, so on a superficial level, yes, it would (at the last) be done when mixing with the other elements.

But not immediately. If I'm using the reverb as a glue to bind all the instruments together into a single sonic space, I will solo the reverb to place instruments in the stereo field and gauge their intensities within that space. Drums are likely going to be further back than, say, guitars, and vocals a bit more forward. Drums will probably also be in the center of that field but keyboards may be off to one or the other side.

Once I've got something approaching a halfway coherent mix in that space, I'll unsolo the verb and integrate it into the rest of the mix. And again, unless I am actively trying to be Alan Parsons Jr, if I can hear it, it's too loud.

On the rare occasion I'm using the reverb as a channel insert, as an intentional effect on a specific instrument, it will necessarily be more prominent.

Does that help?

[eagan]

Hi,

So you would adjust reverb for a track when mixing with the other elements, not in solo ?


Um, no. That's not what I said.

Scroll back up to the previous post I wrote and read that again (down toward the bottom of the post), and also what Fulcrum added.

To restate this quickly, I find it works much better to solo a track and adjust reverb for that track.

That includes all the choices to be made in this; the particular reverb used, any parameters available for adjustment, also trying to get a happy wet/dry balance that sounds right while that track is in solo (although that will probably change when integrating into the full mix, to me the point there is to just get a sense of how the reverb return is blending with the original dry source).

THEN, go back to the full mix, and listen, because that's the point, the goal, to make this work well in the context of the full mix. If it isn't sounding great, go back to that track in solo and adjust some more.

The purpose of the process is to make any reverb work in the context of the complete mix. That's what matters, not what it sounds like on its own. That's the test. But the point is that it is far easier to work on adjusting things and really hearing what you are doing as you adjust, if you have a particular track soloed as you do this, then check it with the full mix. It's back and forth between solo and full mix, as many times around as you need until it's good.

Beyond that general method, though, there are no easy formulas and rules except what Pimp said. When it's right, it's right.


JLE

[MacGregor]

The purpose of the process is to make any reverb work in the context of the complete mix. That's what matters, not what it sounds like on its own. That's the test. But the point is that it is far easier to work on adjusting things and really hearing what you are doing as you adjust, if you have a particular track soloed as you do this, then check it with the full mix. It's back and forth between solo and full mix, as many times around as you need until it's good.


Exactly.
Let me add that I not only toggle solo/full mix, but often do a
step in between with solo/group and/or group/full mix.
Kind of finer context granulation.

Mac

[John Suitcase]

I also find that my monitoring level will affect my perception of reverb, as will listening in headphones. I'll sometimes get what I think is a good sounding reverb, then put on the headphones, only to find that it's swimming in reverb.

In cases like this, I may adjust the reverb, or I may eq the reverb more aggressively. I almost always band pass the reverb, between about 500hz and 3k. I find that keeps it from getting to muddy and too spitty.

Of course, if you're going for mud or spit, ignore that!

[slabrock]

Reverb or echo is just one thing. Things can be very simple if you keep in mind the space the band is using in real life right now (or what the band or artist is aiming for).

If i'm doing a garage band, i don't place them in a stadium.

I won't place a band in a smaller venue than the ones they sell in real life. Otherwise somebody's gonna think there is something wrong with the band's value.
:D :D :D

That means that most of the time when you hear the echo it's really too much (yeah, i'm not one of them guys). But remember that the reverb is just one indication of the imaginary space, both EQing and panning are decisions in that field, too.

Always aim for the next space the band is aiming for. And see, everybody's gonna think they're ready for that when they hear the record. :lol:

Peace

Slabrock

[eagan]

Interesting approach, but of course, not everybody and every project is going for a representation of what the band sounds like at a live gig.

That does remind me of a good lesson I got years ago when helping out a bit with a little project. A local band, doing regular bar gigs, led a not uncommon existence in which they played the typical 4 sets a night bar band gigs mostly playing covers, but they also happened to have a guitarist/singer/songwriter who was a really good songwriter. I didn't care for listening to these guys all that much doing all the covers, but I got real interested when they did Steve's songs.

They decided to record an album and release it as cassette only (late eighties when this was a common cottage-industry approach), using another friend's 8-track setup in the space they shared. I was just around helping a bit.

My friend who was engineering was competent in some ways, but had questionable taste and judgement on some things. When he got around to mixing this project, after he got done, I had a listen to the finished album and just gagged.

These guys were a guitar/bass/drums trio with singing guitarist that might have been described by some people as "power pop". Just basic very melodic pop/rock, fairly straighforward.

The mixes had dead bone dry drums, right in your face, which wasn't so good for one thing because the drums sounded fucking awful at the source. I mean, absolute piece of shit cardboard box kit with heads ready for the trash two years ago and a drummer who didn't have a clue or care about tuning.

Then, over the top of it all, the vocals on every song had massive, over the top, coming down off the distant mountain range reverb. Just unbelievably excessive in every aspect, while everything else sounded like you were in a walk in closet with the instruments.

I learned a lot about "context, context, context!" and what NOT to do by somebody else's mistakes on that one.


JLE

[Olivier le Castor]

Hi,

MiLar is for sure a great source of infos.
I was just hoping the "reverb" side would be emphasized a little more... e.g, for the drums, Charles uses a long plate on the BD.
Could someone elaborate a little more on this ? For me, some elements were dry, like bd.
Also, the choice of the different verbs and how they interact with each other would have benefit for a little more info...
Aniway, thanks Charles for al your work :Coolio:
O.

[paulie]

Agree about occasional soloing for setting balances. Mono reverbs are also useful if you don't want to cloud up the mix.
Pan away from the source to hear it and towards the source to bury it a little.

My 2c.

Paulie.