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Aardvark
April 24th, 2011, 09:46 PM
Today I am introducing a new book review service designed to save folk’s time and effort when it comes to best sellers that run into controversy and find their way to your reading list for the first time.

Where else to start but “Three Cups Of Tea” and for the purposes of this discussion we shall concentrate exclusively on the book as read by any number of jaded newcomers to this tome.

Let me say upfront that there is little to no chance of me giving a decent or balanced review of this book let alone a thorough one. As if this dispatch I have not managed to get through much and am never shy to drop a book partway through if it insults me.

My goal is to keep anyone from wasting a dime here without fair warning from my bullshit meter.

For those of you have already read or recently purchased the book, you can play along at home and play armchair quarterback too!


In a nutshell, here is my synopsis.


This book is about a guy who gets lost in Northern Pakistan and ends up finding his calling. Our first taste starts with a forty-year veteran pilot of the same region marveling at the protagonist’s superior knowledge of the terrain.


I did not make that up.

What more do you need to know?

How seriously can you take a tale that is prefaced with such a glaring incongruity?

Save yourself the time. Avoid this temptation.

If you are not yet prepared to heed my advice allow me to elaborate.



-----



Given the laws of physics, helicopter pilots in Northern Pakistan spend more time flying in between mountains and less so over them. Much of the same is true for most fixed wing pilots in the region. This is a direct result of little things like six, seven and eight thousand meter granite giants that gobble up unwary or unlucky flying machines with regularity.

Forty years of flying in such a region would give any pilot an exceptionally detailed and unique knowledge of both the land and the wind conditions most places humans would ever fly to… or spend weeks and months hiking to.

"I've been flying in northern Pakistan for 40 years. How is it you know the terrain better than me?"

Now our hero somehow, between the time he got lost in the area and the time he ends up flying over it with the President’s personal Northern Pakistan pilot, becomes an expert of such authority that his exceeds that of the forty year veteran who can only effuse while mentioning that our hero is the one of the world’s finest humans and he has met some serious names to compare against.

"Flying with President Musharraf, I've become acquainted with many world leaders, many outstanding gentlemen and ladies. But I think Greg Mortenson is the most remarkable person I've ever met."

So far, and we are just examining the book’s introduction, we have met directly or indirectly the President (past) of Pakistan, any number of renown dignitaries he is likely to and apparently has fêted in similar manner, the Presidents personal pilot, a forty year survivor of flying in a remote and unforgiving part of the planet in addition to our humble narrator… our hero in the third person.

Talk about pop at the top.

(I would love to know the conversational sequence that lead to our pilot, who, as the personal pilot to the President, a forty year veteran of Northern Pakistan and logically a foremost expert on the terrain, learning of our hero’s superior knowledge.

“Hi, I am Greg… do you need a hand navigating this rig? I know my way around these mountains better than any helicopter pilot… except for that time I got lost coming off of K2.”

Just how does a sixty year old pilot who has spent his entire career flying over Northern Pakistan learn that his passenger, who is not a pilot, knows the terrain better than him and how on earth could he acquire this specific, strategic and scarce information? Did his passenger somehow hike every valley and high plain he has flown over in his forty years of service? Who could possibly know more about such a vast and difficult part of the world than a man who spends forty years flying it. Seriously… who?)

Did I mention that this book is listed as non-fiction and that millions of people read the same introduction I am quoting from?

It must be safe to say that besides the millions of folks who bought the book and possibly read the introduction there were a few pairs of eyes from the publishing company that looked over the copy before it went to print?

Hello?

The pilot tale is a mighty big whopper on the sheer face (pardon the pun) of the two author’s written words/recollections/conflations/fabrications (http://outsideonline.com/adventure/travel-ga-greg-mortenson-interview-sidwcmdev_155690.html).

Of those millions who bought the book, I wonder how many knew that the listed co-author, David Oliver Rilen, is on the record as saying he, and he alone wrote the book. I wonder how many knew that events were ‘compressed’ and ‘omissions occurred’? I ask because I am reading with this knowledge loud and clear in my little coconut.

Having just touched the surface of the introduction I can’t say if our actual writer of the non-fiction book was in the helicopter at this propitious moment or, in absence of being there, went and interviewed the certainly legendary pilot of Northern Pakistan to get the quotes right.

Either way, without having seen the first page my be’essometer is already pinned.

The title of the book itself starts the seduction and before you can say girls schools in remote regions our inkling of the hero’s greatness is hammered home by the first ethnic member of his largesse’s target the reader meets.

Brilliant… but…

…In no way can the story of the helicopter pilot be entirely true if it ever happened at all and yet it is used to prepare the reader and set the bar of brilliance that is our hero. A forward description of this employment is propaganda.






So far my review is not going well and I can’t say I will get much farther but who knows. If you were thinking of buying this book I suggest not.


Cheers,
Aardvark



:headpalm:

Wide-O
April 24th, 2011, 10:31 PM
As you know Aardy, I'm only half way through Krakauer's reply, and honestly, sick to the bone.

Mythomaniacs (not that I personally know such a person IRL) can really make a mess of things.

I'll refrain from making the joke "three girls, one cup" as this goes way deeper than that.

Mother Teresa, secular version?

Aardvark
April 25th, 2011, 12:08 AM
...Mother Teresa, secular version?

We will soon 'see'.

Hehehe

:Wink:

Meanwhile, this (http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/24/v-fullstory/2183261/pakistanis-say-us-writers-story.html) report is interesting.

Mortenson told his Mahsud tribal hosts that he was a urologist, which meant that there were lines of locals wanting to consult him, especially women, Gul said.

In his book, Mortenson says he's a trained trauma nurse.


"He would be writing prescriptions for people. He would diagnose people with serious conditions, like cancer and heart disease, there and then on the spot, with no tests from a laboratory or anything. People became very anxious with the news," Gul said.


That is a new accusation to me and in no way suggests there is a god-complex at play or worse.:headpalm:


Meanwhile, I can't arse myself into reading the damn book so I will focus on excerpts that defy all logic... seems to be plenty to go around.




Cheers,
WouldyoubelievetwoboyscoutsinarowboatVark




.

Wide-O
April 25th, 2011, 04:35 AM
His book became required reading in the U.S. military before deployments to Afghanistan.


:headpalm:

I have no words...

sidechain
April 25th, 2011, 06:09 AM
there's nothing like the blind leading the blind.
What a lot of American's do not realize about Afghanistan is that NATO are not fighting Taliban they are fighting the Pakistani equipped Afghans.
Guess who gives money to the Pakistani gov't to fight the "terrorists"? - The Americans.... :Cry:

Well at least you guys are creating jobs there. :beer:

weedywet
April 25th, 2011, 06:21 AM
http://www.alternet.org/world/150716/exposed_literary_fraud_reveals_lengths_americans_t ake_to_deceive_themselves_to_justify_war_and_inter vention/

Wide-O
April 25th, 2011, 12:47 PM
http://www.alternet.org/world/150716/exposed_literary_fraud_reveals_lengths_americans_t ake_to_deceive_themselves_to_justify_war_and_inter vention/

Ismaeli... yeah, them's the real terrorists.

chrisj
April 25th, 2011, 05:02 PM
Mortenson told his Mahsud tribal hosts that he was a urologist, which meant that there were lines of locals wanting to consult him, especially women, Gul said.
In his book, Mortenson says he's a trained trauma nurse.
"He would be writing prescriptions for people. He would diagnose people with serious conditions, like cancer and heart disease, there and then on the spot, with no tests from a laboratory or anything. People became very anxious with the news," Gul said.

Of course he's a urologist. "You're infected with hepatitis. And you, you're a cancer sufferer. And you? Well, you're just all kinds of fucked up! You'd better bring your pretty tail over to my tent this evening and I'll make you so much better" XD

Aardvark
April 25th, 2011, 05:37 PM
Somebody help me with this next one as I cannot make sense of this in the least.

It seems that our hero, after a punishing two and a half months of a failed K2 attempt, decides to hike down to the nearest town some fifty miles away. Being weak and near exhaustion he hires a porter to carry his pack for him and accompany him down the glacier.

So far so good.

Where we start to go off the rails of logic is when the porter, a week into the trek, manages to get too far ahead of our hero and they become separated.

Yes… the guy carrying the heavy load belonging to the guy who is going to pay him for hiking a week through the mountains with a heavy load just all of a sudden shoots ahead with no regard for his client and the client seems to have let him.

How does a guy who lived on K2 for 78 days allow his kit and porter to disappear and how come the porter and client did not have a basic contingency plan if they got separated? A two dollar whistle anyone? This situation as explained makes no sense to either a porter or a hiker but let us assume that this is what happened and move on to the good part.

“By the time he reached the village’s ceremonial entrance...he was leading a procession of fifty children.”

Just beyond, Mortenson was greeted warmly by “a wizened old man, with features so strong they might have been carved out of the canyon walls.” His name was Haji Ali, the village chieftain. He led Mortenson to his stone hut, “placed cushions at the spot of honor closest to the open hearth, and installed Mortenson there....First, let’s do some freakonomics on the math.

The tiny village of Korphe has a trail in and a trail out. If fifty children were hanging about one side of the village where our hero first appeared to them, then logic suggests there were fifty more on the other side of the village and further it is unlikely every single child in the village was lingering along the trailhead so how many children are in this village? Two hundred or so? That’s a pretty big village.

We will leave the fifty kids for a moment and I ask the reader to make a picture in your minds eye as to what this looks like…

He led Mortenson to his stone hut, “placed cushions at the spot of honor closest to the open hearth, and installed Mortenson there.... Do you see a stone hut in your mind way up in the Himilayas?

Good.

Now lay in front of the fire and look around your hut. How big is the stone hut you are imagining?


When Mortenson looked up, he saw the eyes of the fifty children who had followed him,” peering down from a large square opening in the roof.

Does your stone hut have a large square hole in the roof big enough to allow fifty children to look inside it and is your stone hut roof designed to…

A: Hold fifty children should they feel like climbing up on it to look in on a stranger.

B: Have a structural support system inside to hold a stone roof with fifty kids on it.

C: Have a gaping hole in the roof in a part of the world that gets mountains of snow, huge windstorms and monsoon rains.

So our hero, who didn’t know enough to stay with his hired porter who didn’t know enough to not lose his client, shows up exhausted and with fifty kids in tow. He falls asleep inside the Taj Mahal of stone huts and looks up to see the same fifty kids looking in on him through a square hole in the stone hut roof and he, of course, knows they are the exact same fifty who were walking BEHIND HIM! That’s right… no other village kids thought to climb on the roof and stare at the stranger, just the fifty kids from that side of the trail.

Back to math for a moment.

Fifty kids... (not three or four dozen, fifty kids... did he count them every time he saw them and thus memorise their faces and then be able to deduce, after waking from an exhaust-fueled sleep in the lost wilds of Pakistan, that they were all perfectly accounted for? This can only be the product of a photographic memory.) ... right, fifty kids, let’s say 40 kilos each. Let’s also say if you stacked them right you only need twelve linear meters for them to park their curious heads over the large square opening in what is rarely a square construct.

This leaves a 3mx3m (10ftx10ft) opening, the edges of which are strong enough to hold an additional ton and a half of kids as well as the weight of the roof itself.

We are talking a "stone hut" here.

Can anyone show me an image of a stone hut on this planet with big square hole in the roof… high up in the Himilayas? Stone house... maybe... stone mansion... errrr... okay... stone hut?

I do not think so.

Mind you a stone hut like that would be an extraordinary building anywhere and surely every climber and tourist who ever went through the village would have taken pictures right?



Oh dear… it just keeps getting worse.


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

Aardvark
April 25th, 2011, 06:55 PM
This gift keeps on giving.

Our hero tells of his epiphany moment as if he were Saul on the road to Damascas, only we are in the high mountains of Shangrila.

The following morning, “after their familiar breakfast of chapattis and cha,” Haji Ali led Mortenson up a steep path to a vast open ledge.... He was appalled to see eighty-two children, seventy-eight boys and the four girls who had the pluck to join them, kneeling in the frosty ground, in the open.

So now we know there are, statistically, at least one hundred and fifty-six children in the village if all of the boys were magically gathered and the birth ratios roughly the same. If only half of the kids show up for the invisible school the village would have at least three hundred school-age children and likely another hundred or so too young… four hundred kids in the village of Korphe.

Take a look at Korphe on Google maps.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Korphe&hl=en&ned=us&tab=nl

Does it look like it is big enough to support a population of hundreds of children?

Haji Ali, avoiding Mortenson’s eyes, said that the village had no school, and the Pakistani government didn’t provide a teacher.... Mortenson watched, his heart in his throat, as the students stood at rigid attention and began their ‘school day’ with Pakistan’s national anthem.... After the last note of the anthem had faded, the children sat in a neat circle and began copying their multiplication tables. Most scratched in the dirt with a stick they’d brought for that purpose.

So they have no teacher but they are copying their math tables in the frost with sticks. Who gave them the tables and who checks to see if the tables are correct?
Who starts the singing of the Anthem?

Who decides what time the kids gather for invisible school and who decides when it is time to finish invisible school and is that the same person who taught them to sit in a perfect circle? Given that there is no teacher this is all remarkable.


For such an amazingly motivated and disciplined bunch of kids it seems odd though that fifty of them do not know any better than to climb on the stone hut roof to spy on a stranger in his sleep but know enough to gather with sticks for invisible school lessons. Are the plateaus of Baltistan inhabited by special children with herding/schooling instincts unheard of in the West? At what age does this instinct kick in?

I wonder how many times our hero counted the children to be certain their numbers. It is easy enough to notice only four girls in a large group but to say with certainty there were 78 boys can only mean you counted them and why would you do that?

And what the parents of these children? Don’t you think they would be interested to know where the kids were spending their days?

“Don’t worry dear, the kids are all at the invisible school writing with sticks in the frost… they will be back for dinner!”

Are there other villages like Korphe where the parents casually leave the kids to follow strangers in to town when they are not at the invisible school doing math or climbing, fifty at a time, on to the roofs of stone huts?


All we need here is a fucking Unicorn.


Cheers,
Aardvark

samc
April 25th, 2011, 07:18 PM
Are you guys even vaguely surprised that this kind of BS happened and that a whole bunch of people believed all of it?

I think it was Fela who wrote a song about being cautious of foreigners who come bearing gifts or stories that were too good to be true...

binaural turbine
April 25th, 2011, 07:19 PM
can you still compost the paper that was printed on, or does it need special hazardous material handling for disposal? :lol:

qharley
April 25th, 2011, 07:22 PM
When do we cut to the scene where our hero awakens at the K2 base camp medical tent out of his lucid dream brought on by severe exposure to the elements?

Are you sure it is only three buckets full?

:Roll eyes:

weedywet
April 25th, 2011, 07:25 PM
... It is easy enough to notice only four girls in a large group but to say with certainty there were 78 boys can only mean you counted them and why would you do that?...

well, if you're trying to sleep with all of them, you might keep a diary...

dwoz
April 25th, 2011, 07:37 PM
Aardy...

can you help me locate the summit and likely ascent path for K2, on that map?

Darth_Fader
April 25th, 2011, 08:03 PM
Dear Aardvark,

I must protest the title of this thread. While I stipulate that "buckets of bullshit" has a very catchy alliterative ring to it, I would submit that "three triaxle dumptrucks full of bullshit" would be a more accurate title.

Sincerely,

Darth

:beer:

Fulcrum
April 25th, 2011, 08:55 PM
Has the werewolf appeared yet? How about the Bollywood dancers?

binaural turbine
April 25th, 2011, 10:07 PM
Dear Aardvark,

I must protest the title of this thread. While I stipulate that "buckets of bullshit" has a very catchy alliterative ring to it, I would submit that "three triaxle dumptrucks full of bullshit" would be a more accurate title.

Sincerely,

Darth

:beer:

I was thinking more along the line of 3 transoceanic super tankers of bullshit.

Baron Von Munchausen has nothing to fear anymore. His family name will be cleared and this new tool take the title

Aardvark
April 25th, 2011, 11:12 PM
And the hits just keep coming!

Korphe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korphe), according to Wiki, had a population of approximately 400 folks in 2006. Our hero wandered into town in 1993.

We know (:headpalm:) there were exactly 82 kids at the invisible school when he visited and most were boys so again... at least a hundred and fifty children in town assuming every single boy was at the invisible school.

Uhm... didn't anybody at Viking books, or perhaps Mr. Relin the author, bother to note the serious math and statistics problem within this fairy tale?

I am hard pressed not to ask at this point but is David Oliver Relin a liar, a dupe or a healthy bit of both?

Here (http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf/2011/04/portland_writer_david_oliver_r_1.html) is an interview with him a while back... he has been in hiding since the 60 minutes story broke and his supposed co-author threw him under the bus (http://outsideonline.com/adventure/travel-ga-greg-mortenson-interview-sidwcmdev_155690.html).

The controversy over Greg Mortenson and the book "Three Cups of Tea" (http://www.amazon.com/Three-Cups-Tea-Mission-Promote/dp/0143038257/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303265351&sr=1-3) continued to rage on Tuesday, with the Montana attorney general launching an inquiry (http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf/story/apnewsbreak-inquiry-into-three-cups-charity/6c8091c17f224cd98d64f646a9011aac) and Mortenson defending himself in part by blaming his co-author (http://outsideonline.com/adventure/travel-ga-greg-mortenson-interview-sidwcmdev_155690.html), David Oliver Relin of Portland, for inaccuracies in the book.

The question of who actually wrote "Three Cups of Tea" has always been a touchy one. Relin, who has not returned telephone and email messages, has said he wrote the book and it was published with Mortenson as a co-author over his objections. (http://etude.uoregon.edu/winter2008/relin/) Relin did not work on Mortenson's second book, "Stones Into Schools." (http://www.amazon.com/Stones-into-Schools-Promoting-Afghanistan/dp/0143118234/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303265351&sr=1-1)

In a 2008 interview (http://etude.uoregon.edu/winter2008/relin/) with Michael Werner, a documentary filmmaker who teaches journalism at the University of Oregon, Relin said the co-publication has been "the only negative thing about this whole adventure for me."

Relin also said he conducted more than "200 interviews with people who had worked with Greg, CAI staff and supporters in the U.S. and Pakistan, the children and village leaders whose lives had been changed by Greg’s work, and anyone else I could think of who could bring another facet of this story into focus."This is a guy who has just seen his career take an ugly left turn at the edge of cliff and he has yet to muster a public word about this.

You can smell the lawyers circling this fishy tale and all of those who have promoted it.:Roll eyes:




Cheers,
Aardvark

dwoz
April 25th, 2011, 11:24 PM
http://etude.uoregon.edu/winter2008/relin/

here, the co-author makes a very specific point about research and memoir vs. research and fiction.

I think I smell a necklacing about to take place. The publisher and Mortenson will hang this all on the ghost writer's head, and not even bother to explain why Mortenson hasn't even once mentioned that the story is idealized, in literally thousands of public speaking engagements.

Johnny
April 26th, 2011, 01:08 AM
Hey now, there are plenty of unicorns (monoceri) around.

Aardvark
April 26th, 2011, 04:06 AM
One last thought on the kids with the special learning/herding gene and the invisible school.

Is it possible for a foreigner anywhere on earth, to walk into a village in the remotest parts of the third world, encounter fifty unsupervised children and not ONE of them is asking for candy, food, money... maybe trying to get you to go to their parents store... anything?

Let me guess. It isn't in their culture to do so but it is alright to climb on the roof to spy on the guest of the village elder.

:Roll eyes:

Meanwhile, it seems our hero is kidnapped by who else... the TALIBAN.

...His abductors smelled smoky and unwashed, and each minute the pickup drove deeper into the night felt, to Mortenson, like a mile further from ever seeing his wife again. He soon found himself in a spare, high-ceilinged room, ten feet wide and twenty long. At the far end of the room he saw a blanket and pad on the dirt floor. So he lay down on the thin pad, pulled a musty wool blanket over his chest, and dropped into dreamless, uninterrupted sleep.

Yes, yes, yes.

You are suddenly blindfolded, kidnapped by the TALIBAN, thrown into a truck and driven to a remote hide-out all the time worrying you will never see your wife again.

Good so far but... you enjoy the sleep of the dead.

Really.

Dreamless, uninterrupted sleep after everything that has just happened.


So the village Mullah is in with the TALIBAN. No stereo-typing there.

The Mullah has nothing better to do than hand deliver Korans (in which language? How many does our hero know?) to the kidnap victims of the TALIBAN!

Note: To read the Koran in anything but Arabic... well... look it up. I suspect our co-authors haven't!

Your plan is to trick them into thinking you are a Muslim by praying five times a day... after they give you a fucking Koran? Maybe... just maybe... when they noticed you not praying five times a day earlier it might, just might, have already tipped them off?

At 4:00 a.m., when they came for him, he had his answer. Khan put a blindfold on him, draped a blanket over Mortenson’s shoulders, and led him gently by the arm out to the bed of the pickup truck full of men. “Back then, beheading foreigners wasn’t in fashion,” Greg thought, “And I didn’t think being shot was such a bad way to die. But the idea that Tara would have to raise our child on her own and would never find out what happened to me made me crazy.”

The men leaped out of the pickup whooping with glee and began firing their weapons into the air. “What’s happening,” Greg asked. “It is best that you don’t know too much,” was the answer. They embraced Mortenson, prepared a feast, and the dancing went on and on. Giddily, he joined in the celebration as they gave him donations. “For your schools... So, God willing, you’ll build many more.”

Yes, that's right.

The TALIBAN, who have kidnapped him but for no apparent reason (no mention of a ransom note or even a discussion of who the TALIBAN kidnappers are trying to reach in order to make a deal or something for the kidnapping hostage...) are now not only going to let him go, but they are stuffing money into the shirt of a man who builds girl's schools for his charity.

Not making this up.


TALIBAN kidnappers>>> American hostage>>> no ransom note/video demands>>>Oh Gee Golly! The American is going to build girl's schools here in the land of the TALIBAN!

"Let's let him go, give him our blessing and, needless to say, pay for a few of those girly schools with our own hard earned dosh!"

Again... I am not the one making this up. This is the story in the book. I am quoting verbatim.

The same TALIBAN who burn schools for girls, throw acid in the faces of the children who might attend them, blow up ancient statues that offend their version Allah's word... these guys kidnapped an American and let him go but not before giving him money to build some more schools for girls.


Sure.


I buy that.:headpalm:



Cheers,
PTBarnumknewhisshitVark



.

qharley
April 26th, 2011, 05:53 AM
I was thinking more along the line of 3 transoceanic super tankers of bullshit.

Ironically that is how shit got its name. The Acronym for Ship High In Transit was stencilled on crates of manure after an unfortunate accident involving damp manure, methane gas and a lamp.

Wide-O
April 26th, 2011, 05:59 AM
You are suddenly blindfolded, kidnapped by the TALIBAN, thrown into a truck and driven to a remote hide-out all the time worrying you will never see your wife again.

Good so far but... you enjoy the sleep of the dead.


That's nitpicking innit? </Spinal Tap> Maybe he was just glad those 78 kids had stopped staring at him?

Aardvark
April 26th, 2011, 06:22 AM
One last thought on the kids with the special learning/herding gene and the invisible school.

Is it possible for a foreigner anywhere on earth, to walk into a village in the remotest parts of the third world, encounter fifty unsupervised children and not ONE of them is asking for candy, food, money... maybe trying to get you to go to their parents store... anything?

Let me guess. It isn't in their culture to do so but it is alright to climb on the roof to spy on the guest of the village elder.

:Roll eyes:

Meanwhile, it seems our hero is kidnapped by who else... the TALIBAN.


Yes, yes, yes.

You are suddenly blindfolded, kidnapped by the TALIBAN, thrown into a truck and driven to a remote hide-out all the time worrying you will never see your wife again.

Good so far but... you enjoy the sleep of the dead.

Really.

Dreamless, uninterrupted sleep after everything that has just happened.


So the village Mullah is in with the TALIBAN. No stereo-typing there.

The Mullah has nothing better to do than hand deliver Korans (in which language? How many does our hero know?) to the kidnap victims of the TALIBAN!

Note: To read the Koran in anything but Arabic... well... look it up. I suspect our co-authors haven't!

Your plan is to trick them into thinking you are a Muslim by praying five times a day... after they give you a fucking Koran? Maybe... just maybe... when they noticed you not praying five times a day earlier it might, just might, have already tipped them off?

Yes, that's right.

The TALIBAN, who have kidnapped him but for no apparent reason (no mention of a ransom note or even a discussion of who the TALIBAN kidnappers are trying to reach in order to make a deal or something for the kidnapping hostage...) are now not only going to let him go, but they are stuffing money into the shirt of a man who builds girl's schools for his charity.

Not making this up.


TALIBAN kidnappers>>> American hostage>>> no ransom note/video demands>>>Oh Gee Golly! The American is going to build girl's schools here in the land of the TALIBAN!

"Let's let him go, give him our blessing and, needless to say, pay for a few of those girly schools with our own hard earned dosh!"

Again... I am not the one making this up. This is the story in the book. I am quoting verbatim.

The same TALIBAN who burn schools for girls, throw acid in the faces of the children who might attend them, blow up ancient statues that offend their version Allah's word... these guys kidnapped an American and let him go but not before giving him money to build some more schools for girls.


Sure.


I buy that.:headpalm:



Cheers,
PTBarnumknewhisshitVark

samc
April 26th, 2011, 06:50 AM
TALIBAN kidnappers>>> American hostage>>> no ransom note/video demands>>>Oh Gee Golly! The American is going to build girl's schools here in the land of the TALIBAN!

Let's let him go, give him our blessing and, needless to say, pay for a few of those girl's schools with our own hard earned dosh.
It should be pointed out here that photos of him and his (so called) kidnappers were published in the book; yeah, the kidnappers took 'class' pictures with him during the eight days they held him but they didn't kill him.

60 Minutes did contact and interview some of those 'kidnappers' who were surprised to hear that they were being labled as 'Taliban kidnappers' and they of course told a completely different story. All of them denied that they were Taliban or that they had kidnapped Mortenson. They claimed instead that they were hired as bodyguards by him and presented another 'class' photo of the group, but with Mortenson holding the AK 47...

Aardvark
April 26th, 2011, 07:02 AM
It should be pointed out here that photos of him and his (so called) kidnappers were published in the book; yeah, they apparently took 'class' pictures with him and gave him... One of them even presented his 'class' photo of the same group, but in this photo Mortenson was the one holding the AK 47...

Yeah, I know... but was trying to stick with just the written word of his 'books' and the absolute absurdities that people bought at face value.

I am particularly interested in this co-author David Relin.

I wonder how many other of his 'journalistic' works are infused and infected with such obvious and sloppy fabrications.

Mr. Mortenson, as we speak, has at least offered a few obfuscatory words in his defense but the guy who claims to have actually written this howler is scarcer than a swimming-pool shot of Donald Trump's hair.



Cheers,
RetardVArk





.

samc
April 26th, 2011, 09:17 AM
I am really curious to find out how he got away with the scam for so long...people must really need/want a hero to look up to.

Wide-O
April 26th, 2011, 01:28 PM
I am really curious to find out how he got away with the scam for so long...people must really need/want a hero to look up to.

Not only that. It's an American Hero. And who cares what the Pakistanis had to say about him. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/20/greg-mortenson-sued-tribesmen-kidnapped) Why would you listen to those people, right?

You have to give it to the guy that he gets away writing about being kidnapped by the Taliban in 1996 in an area where ... there were no Taliban until 2002. :headpalm:

The more I'm reading up on this, the angrier I'm getting.

Wide-O
April 26th, 2011, 04:08 PM
I do not want to steal Aardy's thunder, but was there really no one who could have verified at least some facts?

‘I sat in the corner staring at this shrouded figure,’
Mortenson says. ‘She looked so small, draped in her cloth.
And I remember thinking how amazing it was that such a
tiny person had such a huge effect on humanity.’…Mortenson
knelt on the cool tiled floor next to Mother Teresa and placed
his large palm over her small hand.” This a poignant anecdote,
but it’s difficult to reconcile with the fact that Mother
Teresa died on September 5, 1997, three years before Mortenson
says he knelt beside her in Calcutta.

plughead
April 26th, 2011, 05:45 PM
After Krakauer's "Where Men Win Glory", fabled and massaged war stories are starting to come to light once they start selling units:

http://knopfdoubleday.com/krakauer/

I haven't read this new one Aardy, but I read voraciously (post-gig/studio nights to settle down and get to sleep before having to get up a few hrs later).

I'm glad these 'truths' are being debunked more often - welcome portals into the cesspool of lies and deceit within the war machine...

Tim Armstrong
April 26th, 2011, 11:13 PM
The second book "Stones into Schools", written without the ghostwriter, is quite unreadable. David Relin may well have written a ludicrous yarn, but without him, Greg Mortenson wrote a deadly dull one!

Tim

Wide-O
April 26th, 2011, 11:24 PM
The second book "Stones into Schools", written without the ghostwriter, is quite unreadable. David Relin may well have written a ludicrous yarn, but without him, Greg Mortenson wrote a deadly dull one!


Rumour has it the ghostwriter for Stones Into Schools had to write with a crazy deadline. So for me, he is mostly off the hook. Mostly. And he was IIRC already rewriting the book that was started by another guy.

The last chapter of that book deserves a book in reply.

Aardvark
April 27th, 2011, 03:14 AM
I have heard rumours that Burger King are lining up to sue our Hero and his co-author.

Initial filing papers argue that anything with that many whoppers in it needs to pay a franchise fee.:Wink:

----

Remember me asking what the odds of 82 children from a village of 400 being at invisible school on their own unsupervised accord, writing in the frost with sticks in doing their math tables while sitting in a perfect circle?

Guess what.

Our Hero wrote the following story in 1993, published in the American Himilayan Foundation newsletter.

Please note the name of the village is different than Korphe, the village of magical children of the herding/schooling gene.

“I came to Hushe as part of an expedition to K2 in 1993... After seventy days on the mountain, I spent some time in Khane. When I asked to see the school, the villagers took me up to a dusty apricot grove on a hill behind the village. A group of 85 children, five to twelve years old, were sitting in the dirt, reciting spelling tables.... Despite abject poverty, their spirits soared. It was obvious that these children were intensely loved by their community, that their well-being was a top priority. But the village simply had no money for education or health care.... So I made the commitment to help realize a school and clinic in Khane.I hate when that happens.



You are out doing a bit of climbing, minding your own business and it seems every remote mountain village you pass through has 80-some children huddling on their own teaching themselves while not a single adult in the village is around, concerned or seemingly surprised and or elated that the local urchins are gathering on their own to do math and spelling... except for when they lurking on the trail into town in case fifty of them need to follow a stranger to a hut so they can all gather on the roof to watch him sleep.


I really hate when that happens.:headpalm:



Once again he is counting the kids and looking over the 85 children has determined their range of age quite clearly. However this time we don't get the male/female breakdown but given the age ranges we can reasonably extrapolate a population of about 400 children for this remote village whose population is unlisted but you get the idea.



Cheers,
Justwarmin'thefiringsquadupMr.RelinVArk






.

Aardvark
April 27th, 2011, 06:08 AM
Between David Relin and our hero, take your pick, someone is so full of shit they need toilet-paper when they burp.

At this point I am inclined towards both being stupendous and pathological liars.

I think it time to find some of Mr. Relin's work as a "journalist and editor" to see if we have any other "compressions and omissions (http://outsideonline.com/adventure/travel-ga-greg-mortenson-interview-sidwcmdev_155690.html)" that bugger the senses as it were.


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

Wide-O
April 27th, 2011, 06:40 AM
I guess seven of those kids died because of lack of health care in the second version.

Also:

When I see a big coat on a hot day, I think about Pakistan and I think “suicide bomber.”

:headpalm:

dwoz
April 28th, 2011, 05:58 AM
Mortenson Hears a Who

It was a packed house. Every seat full, a sea of expectant and exuberant faces, eagerly awaiting the evening's main event. Greg Mortenson, famous the world over for his work bringing the opportunity of a better life to the children of the world was about to take the podium.
An affable, easygoing man, possessing a quiet grace, a stoic charisma grown from his years of naming and shaming the world's great mountain summits.

Mortenson takes the stage, with a little skip and an endearing oafish clumsiness. There's an aura of sincerity emanating off him like cheap after-shave. He's a mountain climber, a special breed. He begins to speak.

“I was halfway through my descent” he intoned, “when I became separated from my sherpa. The seatbelt light had turned on and he had to return to business class, far down the narrow, serpentine trail. I didn't see him again for a long time. There I was, walking down the boarding tunnel of gate K2 in the northern terminal of the O'Hare region, without any of the amenities we take for granted in our daily lives. I hadn't showered since the Marriott, what seemed like an entire world and a lifetime away.”

The audience was listening with rapt attention. Women in their aquamarine burkhas twisting in their seats from the tension. Men nervously fingering the stocks and sights of their Kalishnikovs as the tale unfolded. It was a tale of personal courage. A tale of adversity, overcome. It was the story of how one man reached a personal epiphany about his life mission, deep in the middle of a strange land. A land where the value system we take for granted scarcely existed, a place with strange indigenous names: Illinois; Narragansett; Houston; Puerta Vallarta; Acapulco; Hilton Head; Cheyenne; Bozeman. Taking a sip of water from the gourd in front of him, Mortenson continued.

“I wandered down from Gate K2, alone. As I passed through the ceremonial entrance gates, into 'The Lobby,' , I found myself in the center of the village. There were children everywhere. They followed me, all 47.33 of them. The people of the village welcomed me, they nursed me back to health with Au Bon Pain and Starbucks. The indigenous food agreed with me: Simple, honest peasant fare, unchanged for hundreds of years. I slept a fitful, deep sleep, occasionally waking to find that there were 13.75 children leaning over the backs of their chairs, peering into my sleeping face. I approached one of the elders of the village, an aged, wise black man wearing the ceremonial rainbow colored robes of leadership. 'Where are your schools?' I asked. He replied, 'man, we is OLD-SKOOL round these parts.' He took me over to see the children scratching their lessons into etch-a-sketches and Gameboys. I felt my heart fill with a sudden flood of emotion, as I suddenly knew my calling. I would come back, I promised. I would come back and establish a NEW school here, with iPads and mp3 players, so that the 87.33 children would have someplace to learn, someplace to grow, some sense of hope and opportunity to illuminate their empty lives of poverty.”

Mortenson made good on his promise. Returning the next year to O'Hare Lobby, he built that school, between the American Airlines Executive Club and the baby changing station. But that isn't all. He's made it his life work, and founded an organization, the Canadian American Institute (CAI) to help. He's built more schools within the North American Airlines Duty Free region than any other organization, breaking down bureaucratic walls and political barriers to do so. To date, he's visited over 170 international airports, bringing funds and resources to the children there, creating hope.

The talk concludes, and the crowd pushes forward toward the front of the dusty apricot orchard in the side yard of the mosque, hoping for an opportunity to buy one of Mortenson's books and get it signed by the author. Mortenson stays late, until the last person in line had come through. The mosque then sent all the women home so that the nightly prayers to Allah could commence. All who attended were inspired by the will and perseverance of Mortenson, who has over the years built CAI into a multi-million rupee organization.

But depending on who you talk to, all is not well in this inspired story of charity and hope. Another climber, who was present for Mortenson's Jet Stream ascent from LAX to BOS, says that there's more than a handful of falsehoods, and even outright lies in Mortenson's story. Richard Branson, a mountaineer with more than a little experience in the areas that Mortenson claims to have worked in, tells a tale of lies, prevarication, and embellishment that paints Mortenson in an entirely different light.

“He's a complete fake.” says Branson. “He says he was coming off gate K2 that day. Well, K terminal is at O'Hare airport. If you check the flight manifests that day, you find that Mortenson flew into Midway on Virgin Airlines. He was never even in O'Hare Lobby, because Virgin doesn't even fly into O'Hare.”

And all those schools he says he built? In a recent expose aired by Al Jazeera, investigative reporters went to those airline terminals to find those schools. The O'Hare Lobby school which Mortenson uses in his inspiring story? It's a broom closet between the American Airlines Executive Lounge and the Baby Changing Station. Al Jazeera asked the locals if they had seen any school activities, and they all just shook their heads. Branson doesn't mince words.

“He's a liar and a cheat.” Branson says. His charity, CAI? Go look at it's books sometime. They're a sham. He uses that charity as his personal ATM.”

The muslim faithful in Afghanistan and Pakistan find these allegations troubling. Abdulla Nabal Chandra, a businessman in Kirkut and a large contributor to CAI, is cautious in his assessment.

“He is doing great works, I am sure of it. But the reports coming out in the media cast a cloud on his operations,” Abdulla says in measured tones. “I do find it extremely disturbing that CAI spends almost 60 percent of it's revenue here at home, in Afghanistan and Pakistan, apparently on promotional activities, with only 40 percent of it's operational budget going toward it's stated purpose, the airline terminals in the impoverished western world.”

That sentiment was echoed everywhere we spoke with people. Recent revelations haven't helped Mortenson's cause. A photo in his second book, “turning gravel into taxiways” showed him surrounded by armed men, apparently kidnapped by the group, in the traditional garb of the terrorist group, TSA.

“Nothing could be further from the truth,” said Leon Hearst, one of the men in the photo. “He was our honored guest.” Hearst produced a photo of his own, showing the group presenting Mortenson with a tray containing his wallet, keys, laptop computer, and iPhone. “It's not only a lie, it's slander.” said Hearst.

Mortenson has recently installed a new executive director for CAI, in an attempt to manage the adverse publicity. Upon taking up the Director responsibility, she released this statement:

“We don't dispute that only 40 percent of our operating budget went to North American Airports, and that a full 60 percent was spent here in the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan. There is not a shred of impropriety in the spending, we are a completely transparent organization and welcome an external audit.”

Mortenson was steadfast in his own defense.

“We have always, and will continue as an organization, to work tirelessly to bring education and enlightenment to the hotspots of terrorism in Canada and America, to build bridges with books; to break the deadly cycle of hate using stones, mortar, chalkboards and the multiplication tables."

Wide-O
April 28th, 2011, 10:05 AM
Just brilliant. Now tell me where to send the bill for wetting my pants.

binaural turbine
April 28th, 2011, 01:36 PM
um, ok

can we say messianic complex much?

Fulcrum
April 28th, 2011, 07:39 PM
Mortenson Hears a Who

.

Aardvark
April 28th, 2011, 10:37 PM
The following morning, “after their familiar breakfast of chapattis and cha,” Haji Ali led Mortenson up a steep path to a vast open ledge.... He was appalled to see eighty-two children, seventy-eight boys and the four girls who had the pluck to join them, kneeling in the frosty ground, in the open. That is from the book.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS8QICgbib0) is our hero speaking of that situation.

Go to the 4:00 minute mark and count the lies... er... 'compressions' and 'omissions'.

Somehow it is now five girls and not four, as in the book he did not write but assumed co-authorship of. For a guy who could remember the faces of fifty kids who walked behind him after awakening from an exhaustive sleep and seeing them peer over a massive hole in the roof of the stone hut, you would think he could get that part of the story straight.


Here (http://outside-blog.away.com/blog/2011/04/greg-mortensons-trip-to-korphe-cant-get-there-from-here.html#comments) is some more information that pertains to our hero's inspirational and completely true and not made up story of how he decided to build girl's schools after twice witnessing seventy-plus boys and four or five girls magically doing their maths, by themselves in the remote farming villages of Pakistan.


Outside was contacted by Masood Ahmad, a Colorado-based Pakistani tour operator (http://www.concordiaexpeditions.com/)who has run trips in the Baltoro region for years and who was in the area in 1993. Using satellite photos, Ahmad walked us through the geographical implausibility of Mortenson’s story.


The Korofong camp, from which Darsney and Mortenson departed on the morning Mortenson supposedly ended up in Korphe, is on the north side of the river, “at the snout of the Biafo Glacier,” as Mortenson told Outside. However, there is no bridge over the Braldu River between Korofong and Askole.



The trail between Korofong and Askole does cross a bridge, but it goes over the Biafo River. If Mortenson had missed that bridge and wandered south, he would have had to swim the deep, wide, fast, and cold Braldu River to reach Korphe, an experience he likely wouldn’t have survived let alone failed to mention in his initial account...


...

Equally troubling is the lack of any evidence backing up Mortenson’s claims about his Himalayan climbing record. As Krakauer pointed out in “Deceit,” the American Alpine Journal has no record of the “half a dozen successful Himalayan ascents” Mortenson claims in Three Cups of Tea. That in itself wouldn’t necessarily raise red flags, since the journal publishes only reports of ascents via new routes or of unclimbed or rarely climbed peaks.
Outside has also learned, however, that Mortenson doesn’t appear in Kathmandu archivist Elizabeth Hawley’s Himalayan Database. Outside’s Eric Hansen profiled (http://outsideonline.com/adventure/travel-ta-201104-climbing-records-elizabeth-hawley-sidwcmdev_154964.html) Hawley in April; by all accounts, Hawley’s database is a thorough and exhaustive account of all Nepalese expeditions. Hawley, who is 87, meticulously contacts the leader of every permitted expedition. She has also recorded 138 illegal climbs, just under 2 percent of the 7,194 expeditions in her database.
Even today, climbers flying into Kathmandu know to expect a grilling from Hawley about their routes and team members. As Ed Viesturs, the first American to summit all 14 of the world’s 8,000-meter peaks, told Hansen, “You go to your hotel, and as you're checking in the phone is ringing and the man behind the desk says, ‘Hawley would like to talk to you.’ You’re barely putting your bags down.” In the early nineties, when there were far fewer expeditions to account for in Kathmandu, there’s little chance Hawley would have missed a single expedition, legal or not, let alone the six claimed by Mortenson, including successful summits of 24,688-foot Annapurna IV and 23,687-foot Baruntse.


In fact, well before any allegations of fabrication were leveled against Mortenson, Hawley’s assistant, Billi Bierling, read Three Cups of Tea and attempted to look up Mortenson in the Himalayan Database. It had no record of him.


“I took the liberty to send him an e-mail and ask him about it and told him that it would be great if you could give us the information as it is not in our database,” Bierling wrote Outside in an e-mail from Everest Basecamp on April 27. “His agent got back to me pretty quickly telling me how amazed she was about my cool job and that she would get in touch with Greg and tell him to get in touch with me. It never happened.” Bierling says she later followed up but got no reply.Our two non-fiction authors are victims of a witch-hunt!!

What else could it be?:headpalm:




Cheers,
Aardvark






.

Aardvark
April 28th, 2011, 11:04 PM
See above video at 14:50.

Listen to David Relin here for twenty seconds.


Witch-hunt I tell you!!



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

eagan
April 29th, 2011, 12:53 AM
can we say messianic complex much?

Messianic complex much.


I did it I did it I did it!

I feel so proud. I'm almost feeling like I might be up to a great adventure exploring the untamed wilds of the airport terminals of North America.

Who wants to donate to my quest?


JLE

[edit P.S.- I promise to teach all the children I encounter following me as I enter the terminal, and provide exact headcounts, including all those up on the roof peering in fascination at me through the skylight.]

dwoz
April 29th, 2011, 01:01 AM
What's NOT strange to me is to make five summits and not BE in the database...


...what's REALLY REALLY strange is to make five summits and not even KNOW about the database.


That's like saying, "I've been going back and forth between Europe and American for years now. Customs? What's that?"

Aardvark
April 29th, 2011, 02:26 AM
What's NOT strange to me is to make five summits and not BE in the database...


...what's REALLY REALLY strange is to make five summits and not even KNOW about the database.


That's like saying, "I've been going back and forth between Europe and American for years now. Customs? What's that?"

Five summits without a single climbing permit would have been possible back then if unlikely but the idea that his climbing partners would not have sought to establish their claims is pushing it. All he needs to do have his mountain mates come public but that, I suspect, is less likely than petting a dead Nun three years after she has left the building and been buried.

Of course, he could have been climbing solo... what with being the foremost expert on the terrain and all... getting lost part aside.



Cheer,
StillnotmakingthisupVark



.

Wide-O
April 29th, 2011, 03:21 AM
Leave the guy alone. He's a hero! He did so much good! He perfectly understood the local needs.

Askoles!

qharley
April 29th, 2011, 07:16 AM
What REALLY REALLY REALLY amazes me is how someone can make up a back story like this, and still think nobody would ask questions. People are naturally pessimistic. You better back up your claims with real truth, and real evidence, or you are toastier than burnt toast.

The man deserves what comes to him, even if his fabled tale is 100% true.

eagan
April 29th, 2011, 09:59 PM
This shit is reminding me of the whole idea of Goebbels of "The Big Lie".

Along with the idea like "well, if we're going to lie, bombard people filling the story with all kinds of specific details, because then people will think 'wow, there's all this really specific INFORMATION, so it MUST be for real, they couldn't be just making this shit up!' ".

(Kind of a close cousin to "if I stand in front of a chalkboard and put all sorts of stuff up there and draw random geometric diagrams around it all, this must be serious scholarly analysis!".)


JLE

Aardvark
April 29th, 2011, 11:48 PM
Here (http://waldo.villagesoup.com/blog/blogpost/three-cups-of-well-we-thought-it-was-tea/395743) is a nice look at the situation from an ethics point of view.


Meanwhile, it is two weeks since the merde hit the curved, rotating blade and our hero and his author/forced co-author are still out of public view.

Everyone has long ago lawyered up big-time and the charming, low-cost barristers of note are negotiating while preparing not to be odd man out in the fight.

I think Dwoz is right... Relin is first guy overboard and he must know it too.



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

Aardvark
April 30th, 2011, 07:59 PM
Off the topic of fiction in terms of a literature and over a moment to a different kind of fiction.


Here (http://www.ikat.org/wp-includes/documents/Financials/990FYE9-30-09.pdf) we have the only financial statement our hero's charity has ever filed.

In his preemptive interview (http://outsideonline.com/adventure/travel-ga-greg-mortenson-interview-sidwcmdev_155690.html) with Outside, before going into hospital hiding, our hero tells the world that this charity has $20 million in reserves to sustain years of operations. I am not an accountant but isn't that the sort of thing that would show up somewhere on your books?

Speaking of preemptive, (he gave the interview before the 60 minutes show aired) our hero it seems was all over the P.R. desk working things in advance (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/connelly/article/Greg-Mortenson-Three-Cups-of-Me-1356850.php) of the merde storm.

The author makes some good points about slippery and slimy posturing in a note he received from our estimable hero with the secret $20,000,000 stash.


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

dwoz
April 30th, 2011, 08:47 PM
jeebus...


this guy seems to be beating out L. Ron Hubbard in the fundraising dept.


Has Mortenson been buying up real estate in Paraguay, by any chance?

Aardvark
April 30th, 2011, 10:41 PM
Our hero's charity is on record saying it has raised some $60 million and somehow $20 million, one full third, is sitting in the bank collecting interest while the charity spent only $34,000 dollars in the last (and only) fiscal reporting year on the salaries of teachers for its schools.

What is the interest on $20 million these days if it is in 'modest' play? If we say an easy 5% that is a million in interest versus 34k in teachers salaries for over a hundred and forty schools.

Yes, this makes perfect sense.



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

Aardvark
May 1st, 2011, 12:03 AM
The circle of lying starts with this (http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2003/edition_04-06-2003/Greg_Mortenson) article in Parade back in 2003.

Long before David Relin wrote the fictional account of our hero's incredible story and long before anyone knew much about our hero the public is introduced to the tale by a different 'journalist'.

Now remember... this is what our hero wrote on his own way back in '94 and resulted in him meeting his future benefactor.


After seventy days on the mountain, I spent some time in Khane. When I asked to see the school, the villagers took me up to a dusty apricot grove on a hill behind the village. A group of 85 children, five to twelve years old, were sitting in the dirt, reciting spelling tables.... Despite abject poverty, their spirits soared. It was obvious that these children were intensely loved by their community, that their well-being was a top priority. But the village simply had no money for education or health care.... So I made the commitment to help realize a school and clinic in Khane.

Courtesy of the Parade writer we get this account in 2003.

Mortenson’s mission started 10 years ago here in Korphe, following his effort to reach the summit of a nearby peak called K2, the world’s second-highest mountain. He undertook the climb in memory of his younger sister, Christa, who had died a year before from epilepsy. But after spending 78 days on the mountain, Mortenson, a former U.S. Army medic, became so weak that he was forced to descend. On the way down, he was befriended by two porters who took him to their homes in Korphe and nursed him back to health.

While recovering, he observed the village’s 84 children sitting outside, scratching their lessons in the dirt with sticks. Korphe was so poor, it could not afford the $1-a-day salary to hire a teacher. “Those kids were so determined,” he recalls. “The fierceness of their desire to learn reminded me of Christa. And since I couldn’t help her anymore, I figured I had to find a way to help them.”

Note the "village's 84 children" bit. There is no "79 boys and four girls" as described in TCOT. This writer gives the impression the village has 84 children who, like their counterparts in Khane, all congregate each day to do school work in the dirt.

The Parade article is quite a howler on its own... try this in your logic circuit:

The Braldu is a place of equally spectacular isolation and poverty: The majority of its 3000 people are illiterate; one of every three babies dies before its first birthday; and local power rests in the hands of Shiite mullahs who take religious orders from the ayatollahs of Iran.

Korphe, though, is different. For, in this part of northern Pakistan (see map on page 6), a region that now sits on the front lines of the war against terrorism, Jahan is the first girl ever granted the privilege of learning to read and write.

For thousands of years the people in this part of the world denied every single girl ever born an education until out hero arrived and changed all of that. Hardly an egotistical notion let alone a racist one and a 'statistic' the writer cannot possible verify.

It gets better though!

Three thousand illiterates except for the 84 kids in Korphe and the 85 in Khane he mustn't of known about (remember the four 'plucky' girls in Korphe?) who all gather to sit in a perfect circle to do their maths and spelling studies.

So in a poor and remote region of the world where nobody can afford to pay a dollar a day for a teacher, most of the kids are already studying things their illiterate parents can't have taught them... including four girls in a place where no female in local history has ever been taught to read or write.

Here is another stretch that would shame Octomom's belly.

Thanks to a unique approach in which villages donate land, labor and some materials, Mortenson completes his projects for a fraction of the normal cost. To build a school, for example, the CAI typically spends less than $15,000—a quarter of the price charged by the World Bank and half of what it costs the government of Pakistan.

A comparable school?

Where are the stats to back this up? Did our writer fact-check this and choose not to include basic data to support his statement?

How could the writer of fact-checked to start with?

Our hero's charity had never released a financial statement to anyone at that point so clearly this is bullshit.


Now here is the best part of the article.

It is not more of the ample bovine fecal residue lingering every step of the way...


Better.


Guess who wrote this outrageous fabrication?


One Kevin Fedarko.

Mr. Fedarko is the 'co-author' of our hero's follow-up book and yes, this book is also listed as non-fiction and contains the famous photograph of the Taliban/maybenotTaliban kidnappers who not only were kind enough to pose with him for a group shot but also let him have an AK-47 while doing it before letting him go with their money and blessing to build more girls schools.


The circle it seems, is unbroken.



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

Aardvark
May 1st, 2011, 12:43 AM
This is from the same Parade article by the non-fiction writer Kevin Fedarko.


Back in Korphe, Mortenson remembers his 1996 promise to Jahan and hands her father 20,000 rupees to cover her tuition.

“Jahan is special not just because she was in the first graduating class of my school but also because her mother died while giving birth to her,” says Mortenson.

So our hero, who built that school with the money given to him by his benefactor tells us it it his school. Not the village school, not Jean Hoerni's school... even though he paid for it, not the charity's school... nope.

His school.

“When Jahan finishes her course in maternal health care, she will have broken the cycle of ignorance. She’ll also have an immense impact on the future of this place. What could be more incredible than that?”Jahan must have been the only female graduate that year as she is supposedly the first girl in the vast and remote region who has ever been allowed to learn to read or write. What about those four plucky girls sitting in the perfect school writing in the sand with sticks... did they drop out?

There can only be one woman from that region who has her name, education and history (Mom dying in child-birth is a nice touch no?) so can someone Google her and get the skinny?

This encounter happened seven years before our non-fiction writer published the article... an article with quotes.

What could be more incredible than that?


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

nobby
May 1st, 2011, 04:43 AM
Sorry I'm late to the party, Ive been busy...

Somebody help me with this next one as I cannot make sense of this in the least.

It seems that our hero, after a punishing two and a half months of a failed K2 attempt, decides to hike down to the nearest town some fifty miles away. Being weak and near exhaustion he hires a porter to carry his pack for him and accompany him down the glacier.

So far so good.

Where we start to go off the rails of logic is when the porter, a week into the trek, manages to get too far ahead of our hero and they become separated.


That'll teach him to pay in full in advance! Can't say I blame the Sherpa :Twisted:

Dear Aardvark,

I must protest the title of this thread. While I stipulate that "buckets of bullshit" has a very catchy alliterative ring to it,

How about "ten trillion tons of toxic trash"?

:beer:

nobby
May 1st, 2011, 05:25 AM
Off the topic of fiction in terms of a literature and over a moment to a different kind of fiction.


Here (http://www.ikat.org/wp-includes/documents/Financials/990FYE9-30-09.pdf) we have the only financial statement our hero's charity has ever filed.

In his preemptive interview (http://outsideonline.com/adventure/travel-ga-greg-mortenson-interview-sidwcmdev_155690.html) with Outside, before going into hospital hiding, our hero tells the world that this charity has $20 million in reserves to sustain years of operations. I am not an accountant but isn't that the sort of thing that would show up somewhere on your books?

Speaking of preemptive, (he gave the interview before the 60 minutes show aired) our hero it seems was all over the P.R. desk working things in advance (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/connelly/article/Greg-Mortenson-Three-Cups-of-Me-1356850.php) of the merde storm.

The author makes some good points about slippery and slimy posturing in a note he received from our estimable hero with the secret $20,000,000 stash.


Cheers,
Aardvark

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt when possible (as if :Wink: ) so is it possible that "our hero" got caught in a sudden squall and had to hunker down in a makeshift shelter on the mountain?

Needing to fend off hypothermia and lacking any other fuel to build a fire, he had no other recourse but to "cook the books"

And being a resourceful, survivalist type (didn't read the book, not planning to) he made a tent up out of whole cloth, much like his book?

:beer: :finger: :Confused: :Coolio:
.

dwoz
May 1st, 2011, 03:08 PM
And being a resourceful, survivalist type...


This is the part about mountaineering that I don't agree with. Certainly, DEFINITELY, they push this aura...the photos are of a leather-faced, ruggedly handsome guy standing at the edge of the world looking ever onward, ice in his beard...you barely EVER see photos of the climbers approaching the summit, with the TWELVE sherpas and SEVEN HUNDRED POUNDS of the highest of high-tech equipment.

It's more like a moon mission. Not to take away from the inherent dangers of the thing, but it's hardly survivalist.

Wide-O
May 1st, 2011, 04:44 PM
I think it went in stages dwoz. I can see the "romance" of the first guys & girls who made it. It seems to be human nature to freeze your toes off on a mountain or on Antarctica, going higher, faster etc. I suppose it does serve a purpose. (progress)

But today it's an industry. I read a few weeks ago that they were "spring cleaning" over there. Hundreds of sherpas gathering tons of rubbish left by all the previous climbers.

It's like taking a Virgin flight and thinking you are Louis Blériot.

nobby
May 1st, 2011, 04:46 PM
This is the part about mountaineering that I don't agree with. Certainly, DEFINITELY, they push this aura...the photos are of a leather-faced, ruggedly handsome guy standing at the edge of the world looking ever onward, ice in his beard...you barely EVER see photos of the climbers approaching the summit, with the TWELVE sherpas and SEVEN HUNDRED POUNDS of the highest of high-tech equipment.

It's more like a moon mission. Not to take away from the inherent dangers of the thing, but it's hardly survivalist.

Well, except for those who died trying to climb it.

K2 is one of the most difficult 8,000ers with technical climbing, severe weather conditions, and high avalanche danger. As of early 2009, 305 climbers have reached K2's summit, while at least 76 have died.

http://climbing.about.com/od/mountainclimbing/a/K2FastFacts.htm

Aardvark
May 1st, 2011, 06:24 PM
Here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/04/30/BU701J9UV6.DTL) we have some good insight into the management of our hero's charity courtesy of the board's chairman of the last two years.

From the article:


Jabbar says that when "60 Minutes" called him before the segment aired, he did not respond because he was in Pakistan visiting schools, his fourth visit since joining the board seven years ago.


When I interviewed Jabbar Friday morning, he said he had not read Krakauer's piece.


"I was put off by the title, 'Three Cups of Deceit.' It was too inflammatory," he said. "I will read it when the semester is over," in about three weeks.


When I expressed astonishment that he had not read it, Jabbar said he would try to read it over the weekend.
So the chairman of the board, a board which has come under immense scrutiny due to serious accusations against our hero who is one of only three board members, cannot be bothered to read the detailed allegations being made by John Krakauer even though his work and that of 60Minutes has sent the entire operation into a tailspin.

Krakauer's writing strongly suggests financial malfeasance on a grand scale and the board chairman has not read the accusations nor had any plan to for weeks to come.


I am pretty sure that is nothing short of failure of duty.:headpalm:


Our board chairman does have some very good excuses though for some of the problems the charity faces.



From the same article:



Jabbar said the institute should have produced audited financials sooner. It plans to produce an audited statement in June for 2010.



It didn't file them earlier because "things were happening too quickly. In two to three years, (donations) tripled," he said. "We were working with a very small staff."


He said the institute has had trouble hiring and retaining good financial and operations people in Bozeman, Mont., although it has a good operations director now.
Blame it on the under-qualified talent pool in duck-fuck Montana... yeah! That's the ticket!

No mention of the many qualified and dedicated former staff and board members who quit because of our hero's repeated refusal to act in a responsible fiscal manner... but wait... we have another head-scratcher here that is Relinesque in its contradictions.


From the article:


Jabbar, who came to the United States on a Fulbright scholarship and started teaching at City College in 1968, said the board is investigating allegations raised by Krakauer and "60 Minutes."
This guy is chairman of the board of three who are investigating the accusations by 60 Minutes and Krakauer but he has not read Krakauer's piece and was in no hurry to.

At best this is incompetance and more likely suggests this fellow has no business being anywhere near the boardroom of a $60 million dollar business.



Cheers,
ThepilegetsbiggerandsmelliereverydayVark



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MacGregor
May 1st, 2011, 06:25 PM
I read a few weeks ago that they were "spring cleaning" over there. Hundreds of sherpas gathering tons of rubbish left by all the previous climbers.


Q: How many people have reached K2's summit?

A: 305, not counting the 3.425 sherpas who cleaned up after them...

:lol::vuvu:

Mac
.

Aardvark
May 1st, 2011, 08:16 PM
A final few comments from the SFC (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/04/30/BU701J9UV6.DTL) article to consider:


Jabbar told me, "It has been really hard to separate Greg from the organization. If there were no Greg, there would have been no donations. When people write checks at these gatherings, the checks are written to the Central Asia Institute."I'm sorry but that statement makes no sense.

He added that all of the allegations of financial impropriety are wrong.How can he say this when he has not even read the most public and serious of the allegations made against CAI?

Mind-boggling.

Mortenson told Outside that since January, he has been paying his own travel expenses and had the institute drastically cut back on advertising and book purchases. Since then, donations have dropped to less than $1 million a month compared with $8 million in December.So even though the lawyer they hired said everything was above board our hero changes course and in doing so illustrates how damaging to the fund-raising efforts it is to conduct business in this manner.

Are we to believe that a vast fortune in potential donor-ship is being lost because he isn't doing it his way? That is the clear message from our petulant hero.

"Fine, I'll do it your way but mark my words... we are going to lose millions! There... see?? I told you so!"


Asked if the charity will survive, Jabbar replied, "Oh yeah, I have no doubt. What I have been receiving and seeing on our website are messages of support. For every 10 negatives there are 90 positives."

He predicts that "any reduction (in donations) will be temporary. We are reaching out to our donors so they know every cent they have given us is accounted for in the way they wanted."Our hero points a bleak picture with the new model while his fellow board-member says it is just a flesh wound... no worries mate!

The last line is priceless.

"Every cent is accounted for in the way they wanted".

What about SPENT the way they wanted? Big difference between how you count money and how you spent the money you are counting or is that just me being a goof?

How does he now know what the donors wanted (interesting past-tense) in terms of standard accountability, when did he learn this and why, after being in business for almost twenty years, is the charity only now offering to follow the legal and moral requirements expected of them?

Remember... up until this story broke the board of CAI was this man Jabbar, our hero and one other hand-picked by hero member. This trio hired the lawyer who said everything was kosher and so after hearing this our hero ran out and started operating completely differently which supposedly is the main reason donations are off.

Once again I remind the reader that I am not making this up.

If I were hired to make this up it would at least have a nod towards reality and a minimum respect for the common sense of the audience.:Roll eyes:


Cheers,
Aardvark
































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Wide-O
May 1st, 2011, 09:02 PM
What about SPENT the way they wanted? Big difference between how you count money and how you spent the money you are counting or is that just me being a goof?


I'd settle for 50/50. Oh, ahem, that sounds wrong, doesn't it?

Now... where's that 20 million?

Wide-O
May 1st, 2011, 09:20 PM
Q: How many people have reached K2's summit?

A: 305, not counting the 3.425 sherpas who cleaned up after them...

:lol::vuvu:

Mac
.

:grin:

Yeah, but them's local furriners. Like Sabine doing the Ring. That doesn't count!

eagan
May 1st, 2011, 10:03 PM
jeebus...


this guy seems to be beating out L. Ron Hubbard in the fundraising dept.


Has Mortenson been buying up real estate in Paraguay, by any chance?


This epic seems to have a hell of a lot more in common with L. Ron Hubbard than just the fundraising.


JLE

dwoz
May 1st, 2011, 10:37 PM
I don't know.


Maybe it's just me.


After all, I've never actually been in a position to have to caretake other people's money on that kind of scale...


...oh, wait...



...I HAVE been in that situation. I help write the software that the big banks use to transfer TRILLIONS of dollars around the globe. We actually sit around sometimes, and try to dream up ways that somebody might THINK we could POTENTIALLY find ourselves in a sticky ethical wicket, and we fix that thing.

In other words, people who play with other people's money on a large scale go to GREAT LENGTHS to avoid impropriety, avoid the appearance of impropriety, and avoid the potential for impropriety.

When you find yourself with a $10 million dollar kitty of other people's money, the ONLY VALID RESPONSE is to stop, step back, say "whoah." take a big deep breath, and EVALUATE YOUR PROCESSES to be CERTAIN that they are clean.

You CANNOT tell me that "things were happening so fast that we just winged it."

Smileyblue
May 2nd, 2011, 11:09 PM
Has it escaped anyone else's notice that "Our Hero" doesn't have the physic of any Himalayan climber I have ever seen? :Roll eyes:

In the video he certainly looks to be carrying way too much weight. Of course the video could have been made much later after he gave up his hiking career...:beer:

dwoz
May 3rd, 2011, 12:06 AM
Has it escaped anyone else's notice that "Our Hero" doesn't have the physic of any Himalayan climber I have ever seen? :Roll eyes:

In the video he certainly looks to be carrying way too much weight. Of course the video could have been made much later after he gave up his hiking career...:beer:


BINGO.


From my vantage point, the only thing he was climbing was the all-you-can-eat buffet.

Aardvark
May 5th, 2011, 04:59 PM
This from our Hero's website:

Central Asia Institute 406-585-7841 www.ikat.org
Executive Director Greg Mortenson Medical Update Monday, May 2, 2011

“Greg Mortenson has been my patient since 2000. In the last year, his heart has developed a hole between the right and left atria, a condition known as Atrial Septal Defect (ASD). It has significantly increased in size in the last few months, due to increased pressure in his right atria.

The cause of this increased pressure is most probably the sleep apnea and concomitant restrictive lung disease with which Mr. Mortenson is also afflicted. Normally, the pressure in the right atrium is low, but the elevated pressure in Mr. Mortenson’s right atrium has not only enlarged his ASD, but also allows unoxygenated blood to pass directly to the left side of his heart and thence through the aorta to his body.

As the hole has gotten larger due to increased pressure, Mr. Mortenson has suffered chronic low oxygen levels in his blood. Normal oxygen saturation levels should be in the mid to high 90s, but his have dropped to the low 80s, an alarmingly low number. I have followed Mr. Mortenson’s condition for the past year with growing concern.

Due to the serious nature of his current condition, and after close and continued consultation with Mr. Mortenson’s medical team, the angiographic procedure to repair the ASD initially scheduled for last week was postponed.

Mr. Mortenson is convalescing at home with CPAP, oxygen and bed rest, allowed no electronics, and will undergo additional tests this week that will determine when his condition will allow for a safe procedure to repair the hole in his heart.”

Dr. Pamela Hiebert, MD, FACP Internal Medicine Associates Bozeman, MT


Please direct any inquires to media@ikat.org. CAI will post any updates, as soon as they are available, at www.ikat.org.

Going to be tricky to do additional tests without electronics no?:Roll eyes:

MEanwhile, as reported here (http://www.stltoday.com/entertainment/books-and-literature/book-blog/article_431b50c0-7697-11e0-8780-0019bb30f31a.html):


According to a doctor's note (http://www.ikat.org/wp-includes/documents/CAI5-2-11-Release.pdf)dated Monday, Mortenson's surgery has been delayed. He is at home in Bozeman, Mont., on bedrest and is allowed "no electronics."


He was to "undergo additional tests this week that will determine when his condition will allow for a safe procedure to repair the hole in his heart."


And yet someone named Greg Mortenson tweeted (http://twitter.com/#%21/gregmortenson) on Tuesday "Greg still recovering...."


On the Friday before the "60 Minutes" story that precipitated this entire saga our hero was in Atlanta, signing books and preparing to give another lecture for 30k. After being confronted by Steve Kroft and his cameras, our hero canceled his afternoon show, hopped on a plane and flew home.


The next day, before the "60 minutes" airing, our hero gave a five hour telephone interview to Alex Heard at Outside Magazine. He has since developed some terrible complications that keep him away from electronics. :headpalm:


Our hero has his excuse for ducking every journalist in the world, as dubious as it may be, but what of Mr. Relin? Does he a note from the school nurse to keep him away from electronics? If he does maybe he can call our hero with my advice to both of them.

Read a question or two from your curious public via old fashion paper products and then write your answer on same said paper!




Voila.

No electronics.:vuvu:




I continue to not make this stuff up.








Cheers,
Aardvark






.

Aardvark
May 5th, 2011, 06:21 PM
I wonder why reporters can't seem to ask the obvious question when handed a sticky answer.

Form here: (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/books/2014961891_cupsoftea05.html)



Beyersdorfer said the organization was working to compile requested financial reports for the attorney general, answer calls from donors and, once Mortenson's health returns, assemble a detailed review backing up the events recorded in "Three Cups" and its sequel, "Stones into Schools."

"We have staff over there (in Pakistan and Afghanistan) who have gone to the schools, taken pictures, gathered testimonials," she said.
Why is a charity paying its staff to travel around doing a fact-check for two books they are saying in advance to be factual?



Could their money not be better spent on things like teachers and books for their students and shouldn't the responsibility of re-examining the books and their claims be left to the two writers and their publisher?


Our intrepid reporter just let that little tidbit slide?:Confused:






Cheers,
Aardvark






.

dwoz
May 5th, 2011, 06:45 PM
One thing confuses me greatly about your last post. That they were sending staff out "on the ground" to come up with corroborating materials.

Wouldn't you imagine it to be the case that after spending a whole pile of money on a school, they'd send a rep out every year or so to each one, to check up, and at least make sure the CAI signage was still spiffy, and check on ongoing needs?

As in, all they'd have to do would be to walk back to the filing cabinet, pull a folder, and say, "yes, our guy visited that school 5 months ago, here's his debrief."

Smileyblue
May 5th, 2011, 08:04 PM
"Our Hero" has a hole in his heart (presumably from birth), Sleep Apnea (which closes over the Esophagus when the muscles in the throat relax), low oxygen levels in the blood (can anyone say pulmonary edema?) and lung disease... but that didn't stop him from climbing K2 and all those other mountains...

Noooo he is superhuman!

dwoz
May 5th, 2011, 08:26 PM
Well...

In this day and age, it seems that you don't really have to write a book, in order to be a best-selling author.

Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Greg Mortenson, any number of other "famous" people who's names appear on the covers of books that they spent very little time actually collecting words for.

Maybe it's the same thing for mountain climbing. You hire a ghost writer and get to put your name on the book as author...you hire a ghost-climber and get to put your name in the books as climber?

Aardvark
May 5th, 2011, 10:23 PM
I think Dwoz has some interesting insight to share with us regarding our hero's Doctor who wrote the stay at home note.


Hello Dwoz?


Cheers,
GoodworkVark


.

dwoz
May 5th, 2011, 10:45 PM
Well, First off, IN NO WAY OR MANNER do I wish to malign the doctor who has treated Mortenson.

In reviewing her bona fides, qualifications, and accolades, I find nothing that suggests anything at all but that she is a fine, competent INTERNIST.

Absolutely nowhere was I able to read anything about anything she's done as a CARDIOLOGIST.

However, by virtue of my own experience with some very very FINE cardiologists, I can tell you one thing: if a middle-aged man has a hole in his heart that's getting bigger, or is otherwise having issues like blood oxygen in the low 80's, the only delay they'll tolerate in going in, is if they have to wait for the current patient being operated on to be completed. In other words, no go home, no wait until next week....NOW. Sooner than now, if possible.

See...there's two phone calls a cardiologist hates to get. First and worst is "hey, wasn't yesterday your wedding anniversary?" and second is "hey, this is the ER. We've got a guy down here, DOA from a heart attack. Wasn't he your patient yesterday?"

the cardiologist's lawyer hates those calls too, in the same order.

So anyway...this tells me something. He was NOT under doctor's care for his heart, he was under care for his SLEEP APNEA.

Yes, you guessed it. The illness that is preventing him from speaking to the press is EXCESSIVE SNORING.

Now, don't get me wrong. Apnea is serious indeed. Unchecked, it can lead to serious issues. Apnea is treated using a medical device called a CPAP. It's like darth vader's mask that you wear when you sleep.

But you don't treat Atrial Septum Defect with a CPAP.

Atrial Septum Defect is a congenital problem. It's been there since long before Mortenson was scratching out his multiplication tables in the dust of his backyard.

The treatment is a procedure called cardiac catheterization. It is, on the scale of medical interventions, very benign (I've had three). So the worry that he would be strong enough to survive the operation is a misdirection. If a catheterization was indicated, the benefits of going in NOW would be huge compared to waiting.

Again, there is almost NEVER a compelling reason to delay treating a known heart defect that is getting progressively worse and that cannot be treated via non-invasive methods.

From a medical standpoint, anyway.

Now...I am not a doctor, so what do I know.

Aardvark
May 5th, 2011, 11:42 PM
From a PDF (http://www.thewombforums.com/Statement%20Regarding%20Media%20Misinformation%20A bout%20Greg%20Mortenson%20and%20CAI%2004/25/11) release by The Central Asia Institute (https://www.ikat.org/) dated yesterday.

Executive Director Greg Mortensen is still awaiting heart surgery. In consultation with his medical team, he will not be available for interviews until he regains his strength.Weasel word alert!

He has a medical team for his serious heart problems and the spokesperson for the team and or lead doctor is not a cardiologist.

CAI’s staff is very small and uses its web-site www.ikat.org (http://www.ikat.org) to provide pertinent information. Voices of Support: Statements Refute Claims Against CAI/Mortenson, which includes accounts from individuals who have visited CAI schools and programs can be accessed here. (http://www.ikat.org/wp-%20includes/documents/CAI0421Releaseweb.pdf) One hundred and seventy schools, twenty million in back-up cash and a very small staff.

The best part might be the words of support and admiration for our hero... well... actually who has not given him a sign of support, admiration nor said a single word in defense of his honesty and integrity since this story broke...


Yes of course, the actual author of the book that has made our hero a wealthy and well-known name and an author who has done quite nicely too in the deal.

Not a peep.

Zero.


Not even a press release about a heart condition written by a Doctor who does not appear to be a heart specialist.


Nada.


Houston, we have a PR problem here.



Cheers,
Aardvark


.

qharley
May 6th, 2011, 06:22 AM
"Our Hero" has a hole in his heart (presumably from birth)

Not Presumably. Definitely.

Every child is born with an foramen ovale, a window in the septum between the two atriums in the heart. In a fetus this allows most of the blood to bypass the developing (and non functional) lungs, since oxygen comes from the placenta.

After birth the foramen closes naturally, except that in around 1 out 4 adults this does not fully close. It can open again under pulmonary stress (high pressure or flow resistance in the lungs). Blood flow though the opening prevents it from healing.

This can be repaired these days without open surgery by using a catheter deployed seal, that looks like two umbrellas attached to each other. It cannot properly seal the leak, but limits flow to such an extent that the foramen can close naturally.

Mountaineers of that calibre go for check ups BEFORE climbing K2, right?

Apparently not.

:headpalm:

Aardvark
May 6th, 2011, 06:54 AM
Mountaineers of that calibre go for check ups BEFORE climbing K2, right?


A few things here... his K2 efforts were in '93 and there was/is no medical certificate required for members on a climbing permit in Pakistan to the best of my research. He was not climbing with a corporate outfitter (K2 is not that kind of mountain for the most part) so there would likely be no waiver regarding this unlike many of the organised professional outfitters today.

But... he was on the climb as the medic and was not expected to contribute so much for his climbing skills (which are, like his climbing claims, under scrutiny) but for his background as a medic with the American military.

One might think as a person with medical training he might have had himself checked out prior to adventure but young, dumb and full of... enthusiasm... is a reasonable defense against common sense.:beer:

++++

The question is... does this doctor's note pass the smell test?


Do tell.


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

dwoz
May 6th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Does it pass the smell test?

As I said before, I can imagine NO REASON to malign or accuse the good physician who signed that note, by saying that even one shred of it is a lie.

I would say that it is written in a way that allows the casual reader to infer that the heart issue was the proximate cause of the man's immediate health concerns. A careful read, however, shows that the actual proximate cause of his concerns is apnea, probably a pretty severe case. If pressed, I would bet that the low-end blood oxygen readings cited were not recorded during day-to-day activity, but at the height of a nighttime apnea episode.

A guy walking around with blood oxy in the low 80 percent range will be passing out, unable to climb stairs, will look a striking greenish-blue instead of a regular pinkish skin color.

Again, if my own experience with the cardiac medical establishment is any clue, if they had even a shred of a suspicion that his heart hole was a threat, they would not let him out of the exam office, not let him go home, they'd have his wife take his car keys and personal effects, they'd admit him, and get him into the catheterization lab at the earliest possible opportunity. that's the way they roll.

There is simply ZERO downside to immediate action, and the downside to waiting is a high risk of death from myocardial infarction or pulmonary edema. IF the procedure is deemed medically necessary.

IF the procedure is deemed medically necessary.


IF the procedure is deemed medically necessary.


IF the procedure is deemed medically necessary.


...is there an echo in here? someone hit the bypass on that lexicon, please?

Wide-O
May 6th, 2011, 04:33 PM
A guy walking around with blood oxy in the low 80 percent range will be passing out, unable to climb stairs, will look a striking greenish-blue instead of a regular pinkish skin color.


I was gonna say: if nothing else seems "wrong" with you, and oxygen levels are that low, it's time to call 911.

Gee, I wonder why they put that thing on your finger when you are in IC...

So I think you are spot on of that being a reading during the night during an episode, which technically doesn't make it a lie.

Aardvark
May 6th, 2011, 06:20 PM
In my morning research I found a curious item (http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20110506/OPINION/105060346/DOVE+Center+says+thank+you+for+support) that caught my attention. As it was dated early May 6 it would be easy to think our hero was at a very nice fundraiser the night before so I called the DOVE center to inquire.


DOVE Center says thank you for support

Katy Petersen • Southern Utah Voices • Published: May 06. 2011 4:55AM


The DOVE Center would like to extend a gracious thank you to the community, our sponsors and business partners for making our first DOVE Center Spring Charity Event an inspiring success.
http://aka-cdn-ns.adtechus.com/images/AdTracImage.gif (http://gannett.gcion.com/?adlink/5111/199511/0/0/AdId=-3;BnId=0;itime=701243245;key=DOVE+Center+says+than k+support;)



More than 200 people attended a private charity dinner with Greg Mortenson, and more than 1,000 community members attended his lectures at Cox Auditorium. We would also like to extend a special thank you to Dixie State College for its support in hosting the lectures and dinner.


Audiences had the opportunity to hear Greg Mortenson's remarkable stories of determination in promoting peace through education. He is responsible for building more than 170 schools, most of them for girls, in devastated war zones in Afghanistan and Pakistan.



Mortenson documented his journeys in the New York Times bestsellers "Three Cups of Tea" and "Stones into Schools." He has demonstrated that one person can make a difference in the life of another, giving his audience the inspiration to assist the underserved in their own community, nation and around the world.


Students from Coral Canyon Elementary, Hurricane Intermediate and Riverside Elementary from the Washington County School District participated in raising money for the Pennies for Peace campaign. The schools donated a total of $3,522.21. Thank you to these schools for helping students in far off places to have the opportunity to learn...


...If you would like to assist the DOVE Center in its efforts you can send your financial donations to 1240 E. 100 South, Building 22, Suite 221, St. George, Utah 84790.
Katy Petersen is executive director of the DOVE Center in St. George.Ms. Peterson was not in but I was informed by her staff member the night in question was early March... somewhere around the 6th... two months ago.

I have left my contact information with her office who were unable to suggest why this was released only now.

No doubt our hero helped this worthy cause to raise money and awareness for both of their endeavors and this is well to anyone's credit but why not thank everybody involved the next day or two later?

With any luck we will hear back from Ms. Peterson who runs by all accounts a very good charity.


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

strix
May 6th, 2011, 07:36 PM
Check out Jonathan Pratt’s report of the 1993 K2 expedition in the American Alpine Journal: http://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Contents/Contents_1995_files/AJ%201995%2037-46%20Pratt%20K2.pdf. It differs considerably from that in Three Cups of Tea, in which Mortenson features as the “team medic” who gives Etienne Fine, the stricken climber, emergency medical care and helps haul him down unconscious from camp 1 over difficult terrain (this selfless rescue work is the reason that he was afterwards too exhausted to reach the summit). In Pratt’s report, Mortenson is listed (last) as a team member, but one “Dr. Andy Collins” is named as the team doctor. Fine develops edema at camp 4; Mazur and Pratt get him down to camp 3 after Mazur injects Fine with Dexamethasone. Two other men from the team, Jonathan Wakefield and John Arnold, come up to help and meet Pratt, Mazur, and Fine between camp 2 and camp 1. Then “the rest of the team” meet them at camp 1. Even by camp 3, says Pratt, Fine has recovered enough to walk “under his own steam,” though slowly and with help, and can rappel. By the time they get to camp 1 the descent is “uneventful, as by now Etienne was recovering.”
Also note that Pratt says they hired “a small army of porters” to take their loads up to base camp. In that case, why would Mortenson be carrying a 90 pound load as he skipped up the glacier in his Tevas towards base camp (9)?
Presumably, after that they did their own hauling to stock the higher camps. I did wonder why, “though no one directed that it should be so,” Mortenson and Darsney had ended up doing all the hauling. Though I speak only as an armchair mountaineer, it seems that usually who hauls what is made very specific and can even be a contentious issue, particularly on extreme-altitude expeditions when climbers are continuously losing muscle mass and need every ounce of their strength to summit. If Mortenson hauled up coils of rope (13), presumably the “speedy and graceful” (12) Pratt, Mazur, and Fine were fixing the ropes over the difficult technical pitches so that less experienced climbers like Mortenson, who were doing the heavy load carrying, could just haul themselves up the rope with an ascender.
I also wondered why Mortenson did not consult a map and compass when he got lost, twice, on the way down from K2 in clear, sunny weather. And how he escaped being frostbitten or dying of hypothermia, or, apparently, even getting worried about these possibilities, when he slept out on a glacier, when the temperature had already dropped “well below zero” (11) at sunset, with no tent, no sleeping bag, and no warm clothes, and with a wind blowing, and woke to find that an ice mask had formed over his face (17).
Another great story: the little boy, Aslam, whose father sends him off to school, alone, by putting him on a raft made of six goat’s bladders tied together and pushing him off into a swift-flowing river, even though the boy can’t swim. Somehow, after what “might have taken ten minutes or two hours” of terror, going through rapids, etc., he comes ashore at just the right place to continue overland to the school (203ff).

Aardvark
May 6th, 2011, 09:21 PM
Check out Jonathan Pratt’s report of the 1993 K2 expedition in the American Alpine Journal:

I did and caught no mention of his name except in the team member credits at the end.

I also wondered why Mortenson did not consult a map and compass when he got lost, twice, on the way down from K2 in clear, sunny weather. And how he escaped being frostbitten or dying of hypothermia, or, apparently, even getting worried about these possibilities, when he slept out on a glacier, when the temperature had already dropped “well below zero” (11) at sunset, with no tent, no sleeping bag, and no warm clothes, and with a wind blowing, and woke to find that an ice mask had formed over his face (17).

All that after hiking up the glacier to get there, spending months on K2 and many days hiking back... what climber on earth isn't going to have even a day-pack with a basic essentials kit... what... 7 or 8 kilos is plenty of kit.


Another great story: the little boy, Aslam, whose father sends him off to school, alone, by putting him on a raft made of six goat’s bladders tied together and pushing him off into a swift-flowing river, even though the boy can’t swim. Somehow, after what “might have taken ten minutes or two hours” of terror, going through rapids, etc., he comes ashore at just the right place to continue overland to the school (203ff).

How does the kid get back from school? Does the raft go up the rapids too?:Roll eyes:

Nice first post btw... what brought you here?:Thumbsup:


Oh yes... now (http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=13547712) we have the opening salvo in what could well lead to a serious bit of litigation. The report makes no mention of the publisher in the complaint but does specify The Central Asia Institute.


Cheers,
Aardvark


.

strix
May 6th, 2011, 10:15 PM
What brings me here? The joy of meeting kindred spirits.

dwoz
May 6th, 2011, 10:39 PM
that fundraiser was March 31.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=126583857415273

Aardvark
May 6th, 2011, 11:24 PM
Also note that Pratt says they hired “a small army of porters” to take their loads up to base camp. In that case, why would Mortenson be carrying a 90 pound load as he skipped up the glacier in his Tevas towards base camp (9)?

I have been thinking about this part of the fairy tale... a 90pd load.

Uphill.

For a week.

"Small army of porters"

From (http://www.himex.com/english/news/2011-05-06Everest.htm) the never dramatic people at Himex (http://www.himex.com/english/home.htm).

• A total of 8,000m of fixing rope was brought to Everest this year
• Around 52 loads were carried from base camp to Camp II
• Around 40 loads were carried to the South Col
• One load weighs around 25kg and is carried by one Sherpa
• The following operators organised load carries from Base Camp to Camp II
• Himalayan Experiennce (9), Peak Freaks (9), Himalayan Ascent (2), Mountain Trip (5), High Altitude Junkies (1), Jagged Globe (1), RMI (3), IMG (9), Patagonian Brothers’ Expeditions (2), Hiro (3), Asian Trekking (10), Canada West (2), Adventure Consultants (5), Endesa (2).
• Various smaller operators were also involved in carrying loads, which shows how the cooperation has improved

Yes, this is Everest, but it shows how much rope you need to cover a mountain and our hero's expedition was going it alone on little traveled line and could expect no help fixing the lines.

So of course there were many porters to carry the food, many camp tents, protection devices and countless sundry items needed when spending a few months in the complete wilderness climbing the world's most notorious mountain and our hero would never be forced to carry a 90 pound load... besides... he claims to have been the medic and that's likely the last guy you want to wear out before camp 1.:Roll eyes:

Presumably, after that they did their own hauling to stock the higher camps. I did wonder why, “though no one directed that it should be so,” Mortenson and Darsney had ended up doing all the hauling.

I note than Dan Mazur has really not weighed in that I can find but he has sent team messages (http://www.summitclimb.com/new/default.asp?linktype=r&mtype=smenu&vid=17&nid=154#26apr) from Everest including pictures so at some point he will have time to be back in easy touch with the public. I assume someone will ask him if ever in his life he has seen a climber haul 90 pounds up the trek in to K2 in the midst of a 'small army of porters'.



Cheers,
Aardvark




.

binaural turbine
May 7th, 2011, 12:18 AM
who does this guy think he is, the world's most interesting man or something?

Aardvark
May 7th, 2011, 01:41 AM
From the aforementioned lawsuit:

19. In all of the above-mentioned conduct and in their soliciting donations from Jean Price by U.S. Mail, Mortenson and CAI committed mail fraud, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 1341, which conduct constitutes racketeering pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 1961, et seq. Mortenson, an individual, and CAI, a corporation, acted as an enterprise which affected interstate commerce. They acted in a pattern of continual fraud over many years in using the false public statements and the false statements in the books to obtain money by false pretenses. The conduct of Mortenson and CAI was prohibited racketeering, and unlawful, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 1962(a), (b), (c), and (d).

No mention of David Relin and I can imagine the lawyers for these two (who are State politicians) called Mr. Relin and said something like...

"We will be going to court to pursue legal actions under anti-racketeering laws and you will be there too. Do you prefer 'witness' or 'accused' status?

"Witness it is! Get your notes/phone records/audio and video recordings ready and every possible bit of communication you ever had with your co-author... and keep your mouth shut, stay low and hope you can somehow save your ass and reputation."

Or maybe these two have another suit ready for Relin and the Publisher if this one gets the toss... who knows but none of this is getting anything than worse with our hero in hiding, his publisher Viking nowhere to be found and the actual writer of the book scarcer than love handles on Karen Carpenter.



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

dwoz
May 7th, 2011, 01:55 AM
When I write my own memoir, there isn't going to be a single quote mark in the entire goddamn thing.

Wide-O
May 7th, 2011, 07:58 AM
that fundraiser was March 31.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=126583857415273

Yeah, indeed. Sorry, did the same exercise yesterday, but forgot to post it.

His last public appearance was on April 14th in Texas.

There's even an audio recording: http://www.conventionmedia.net/tl48011d.html

But as much as I'd like to hear his (last?) lecture, I don't want to spend $12 on it. :headpalm:

After that date, all events appear to be canceled.

dwoz
May 7th, 2011, 01:25 PM
Hey, I have absolutely no doubt that the guy needs his rest. Having a multi million dollar organization come crashing down around your ears with attorneys general and teevee camera crews sniffing the wreckage has got to put a kabosh on your get-up-and-go.

Aardvark
May 7th, 2011, 07:01 PM
When you start with tall tales they find many ways to haunt you. It gets even worse when you leave your defense in the hands of the inexperienced and they inadvertently work against you.

In this article (http://outsideonline.com/outside/culture/200812/greg-mortenson-afghanistan-1.html) from Outside Magazine, Kevin Fedarko is the writer and he gets us going early with this zinger:


THE HABIB BANK OCCUPIES a four-story building in Kabul's Shahr-i-Nau district, a neighborhood that features an outdoor photo exhibit of Afghan land-mine amputees, an Internet café that was blown up by a suicide bomber in 2005, and a man holding a trained monkey on a chain.

At five minutes to nine on a Saturday morning, the monkey's eyes dart toward the bank's entrance as two men in combat vests come charging out through the doors.

The figure in front, a hulking six-foot-four American, is wearing a pair of size-15 Merrell clogs and a shalwar kameez, the pajama-style robes favored by men throughout Afghanistan. Behind him is a former Pakistani commando whose right hand is frozen into a kind of claw.

In it, he clutches a plastic bag just given to him by the lady who brings fresh-baked bread to the bank's employees every morning. The bag now holds 23 bricks of cash totaling $100,000. The cash is dusted with flour, and both men are running as if the devil himself were after them...

...Before completing the arc of an argument whose abundant illogic has escaped his notice, he pats his pockets to make sure he hasn't dropped a stray wad of cash that will cover the annual salaries of 20 schoolteachers working in the mountains of northern Afghanistan.

"It's true, of course, that back in the early days we may have been flying by the seat of our pants a bit. But, believe me, we are much more organized now."

Let us put aside the ridiculous notion of a guy who jets around America in a private charter and has a security detail when he makes public appearances would be carrying the local equivalent of millions in cash through a notoriously dangerous city.

Let us also put aside that $100,000 divided by 20 teacher salaries is $5,000 per teacher in a part of the world where the going rate (http://www.cw4wafghan.ca/what-we-do/breaking-bread/frequently-asked-questions) in the best case is half that and in most cases a fraction according to other charities in the region.

Let us put aside that the only ever audited financial statement by the CAI (2009) shows teacher salaries listed at $35,332 for the entire organisation, not just twenty teachers in one part of Afghanistan.

Let's leave that aside and look at what was released today as part of their approach to diffuse the situation and placate their donor-ship base.

I quote from here (http://www.thewombforums.com/Important%20Update%20from%20Executive%20Director%2 0Greg%20Mortenson%20and%20Overseas%20Staff%2005/06/11) (PDF) ... it is a Q&A format.

5. Does CAI pay teachers at CAI schools or are they paid by others and if so, by whom?

In Pakistan, CAI’s regional managers are wired funds for teachers’ salaries, which are then given to the education committees in each village for distribution. In some cases that happens monthly; in more remote areas, the money is distributed by CAI quarterly or semiannually. In addition, some communities charge a small tuition to families that can pay – the equivalent of a couple of U.S. dollars per month or less – and that money is then used to pay additional teachers as the schools grow.So we know there are wire-transfers to account for some teacher expenditures in Pakistan and we know when those teachers get paid in the remote areas... not annually.

In Afghanistan, CAI helps with construction of the schools, but upon completion, the schools belong to the Afghan government, which is supposed to provide the teachers and pay them.

But in some cases, CAI supplements government funding with additional money for additional teachers. And in the more remote areas, when the government does not make good on its obligation to pay teacher salaries, CAI steps in to pay them and ensure they continue to come to work every day.If there is nobody there to monitor them in remotest of Afghanistan (there must not be if our hero has to fly in and hand out the pay dockets) how can CAI ensure that someone, who is either paid way too much before they earned it or way too late after earning it, is doing the prescribed job or even doing it at all let alone well.

Also... did our hero walk amongst the people awash in cash and then start handing out big wads of it to young women in remote areas controlled by the Taliban?

Seriously... how dangerous is that for these women?

In a remote place where folks make a on average a dollar or two a day (except for the $5,000 per year teachers) and where the national average salary for a teacher is around $750 (http://www.banffcragandcanyon.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2957305) how long would it take the Taliban, or anyone else nefarious for that matter, to lay in wait after each pay visit and simply kill and rob the teachers.

Absurd... especially if we read a bit further:

In August 1996, he was kidnapped in Waziristan and held for eight days before being released. Earlier this year, a CAI school in Afghanistan was attacked by the Taliban.So how come Kevin (I am in hiding with Relin) Fedarko did not ask a simple math question about the 20 teachers and their $100,000 salary (Or his keen eyed editors at Outside)... let alone the manner in which the money was handled?:headpalm: Was he there for this episode and if so I trust he would have pictures, video, maybe an audio bit or two.

It would be great to see the smiles on the faces of impoverished school teachers in Taliban held Afghanistan who get handed $5k cash from our hero. One would think any writer on this trip would have a ton of those shots... the schools too as well as basic notes on their location.

++++

I am just getting into the CAI release and will be back with more reasons not to hire (for free... she is a volunteer) your wife's friend to run a million dollar outfit that is collapsing due to your lies while hiding from the world.

Just plain bad strategy employed by incompetents.




Cheers,
Aardvark


edit: I am actually reading the entire article and yes, our writer is on the scene:

THREE HOURS AFTER RUSHING to the airport, we finally board a 12-seat twin-turboprop Beechcraft and lift off over the brown expanse of Kabul. The plane is operated by PACTEC, a nonprofit that shuttles humanitarian workers around Afghanistan. PACTEC offers no beverage service, but the seat pocket does contain a laminated guide to avoiding land mines, which still kill or maim around 65 Afghan civilians every month.

Now I will contact PACTEC to find out about Northern Pakistan's most famous helicopter pilot.


.

.

Aardvark
May 7th, 2011, 07:55 PM
I got side-tracked by the Fedarko article and am a little slack-jawed at what is there (http://outsideonline.com/outside/culture/200812/greg-mortenson-afghanistan-1.html?page=5).

THERE ARE MANY unorthodox aspects to Mortenson's operation, but perhaps the oddest is his preference for hiring inexperienced, underqualified, often uneducated locals from whom he somehow extracts amazing results...

...Altogether, the CAI's staff in Pakistan and Afghanistan totals about a dozen men. The roster includes a mountaineering porter, a devout Shiite scholar, a farmer who's the son of a Balti poet, a taxi driver, a man who grew up in an Afghan refugee camp, a base-camp cook, and two former members of the Taliban.

A quarter of them cannot read or write. Crucially, they are evenly divided among the regional subsects of Islam: Sunni, Shia, and Ismaili (a liberal offshoot of the Shia whose majority-recognized spiritual imam, the Aga Khan, is based in Paris).

How many schools per illiterate school-program managers does that work out to?

First on the agenda: morning ablutions, which consist of Mortenson smearing hand sanitizer on his face and hair while Sarfraz scratches himself. Then they pop the cap on their jumbo bottle of ibuprofen, and each man selects two or three tablets as a pre-breakfast appetizer. "When we're going hard, we both go through about 12 or 15 of these things a day," says Mortenson.

At this point, one of the two men may put on the pair of eyeglasses they share (they have the same prescription) while the other steps outside with the toothbrush. (Yep, they share that, too.) One morning, I ask Mortenson to provide a list of everything else that he and Sarfraz use together.


"OK, let's see, we share our jackets, our razors, our soap, our socks, our shalwar kameez, our undershirts—"Our hero likes to fly charter but shares a toothbrush.

With a guy who starts the day by scratching himself.


Now I really want to be a read-through editor and smell-tester because this stuff is as golden as Mr. Relin's work.:lol:


Cheers,
Stillreadin'backsoonVArk






.

Aardvark
May 7th, 2011, 08:36 PM
More:

We get proposal after proposal, and we have to say no to dozens of projects," Mortenson sighs one evening, while hearing a request from a group of local women who want him to pay for a new vocational center, where they'd be able to sew clothing and crafts to sell in the village bazaar.

"Some of these people have traveled for days to present us with their requests. Others have been turned down by everyone else they've asked. And often we're forced to say no, too—like I'm going to have to do with these ladies right here."

Standing before the women, he turns to Sarfraz. "Your budget for the Wakhan is finished for this year, no?" he asks. This is true, but it's also a piece of pre-scripted theater that will lay the groundwork for a diplomatic denial of the women's request.


"Finished," Sarfraz confirms while pulling out his phone, which is ringing.

Someone travels many days on foot, Yak... whatever and the budget has been allocated so no luck.

One year later the CAI Audited Statement shows $15 million sitting in the bank doing nothing.

Just saying.


As far as "pre-scripted theater" goes I am surprised the writer hasn't glommed on sooner.


Cheers,
BackwithanactualREPORTsoonVark






.

dwoz
May 7th, 2011, 08:44 PM
The bag now holds 23 bricks of cash totaling $100,000.


Are you sure this isn't a typo? the letter "c" and the letter "h" are often mistaken for one another, eh??

Spock
May 7th, 2011, 08:49 PM
When you start with tall tales they find many ways to haunt you.

:Thumbsup:

An ex-cop that once worked for me said, "The problem with telling lies all the time is after a while you forget what lie you to told to who. "

The other thing is each time you ask someone to tell what happened, if it word for word the same each time, it is most likely a lie.

Aardvark
May 7th, 2011, 11:39 PM
Staying with Mr. Fedarko and his lack of inquisitive explanation of the obviously smell parts of his own reporting:

When we reach Baharak, the valley forks in three directions and we head west toward Ishkoshem, a town of 20,000 families. Here, on the morning of our third day out, we come to the jewel of the CAI's Wakhan program: an unfinished foundation about the size of a football field, filled with dirt, stones, and loose sand, future home of the Ishkoshem Girls' High School.

The completed structure will be two stories tall and will host 1,200 female students. Costing more than $70,000, it will be the largest school ever built in this region, and it will have one of the most magnificent settings for any school anywhere.Where does one start?

How about numbers of no real value?

"A town of 20,00 families."

Pretty big for "A town" and how about giving us the population and then break it down to "families".


If the average rural family in the region has five members (a low number I would think for a farming region) then the "town" has a minimum 100,000 people. This seems quite at odds with a remote rural town in the rugged mountains and when you look at Googled images for the town (http://www.google.com/search?q=Ishkoshem&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&nfpr=1&prmd=ivnsb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=WrzFTeKCNIPGsAPK6f3rAQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=647)... which has different spellings (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&nfpr=1&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=cbzFTZnDL4-ssAPXv6XKAQ&ved=0CDUQBSgA&q=Ishkashim&spell=1&biw=1280&bih=647)... you see nothing to suggest a population of 100,000 let alone 10,000.


"Foundation about the size of a football field... two stories tall... 1200 girls...costing more than $70,000"


Costing more means nothing, nothing at all. Is it $75K or is it $500K?

Who cares you ask?

Well... this is the same Wakhan program we learned of earlier.

"Your budget for the Wakhan is finished for this year, no?" he asks. This is true, but it's also a piece of pre-scripted theater that will lay the groundwork for a diplomatic denial of the women's request.

The author prefaces his comments about pre-scripted theater with "this is true".

Theater or not how could they know the budget if the biggest project they have ever done is under construction without a budget thereof except "more than $70,000".

How can Mr. Fedarko verify that the statement is true?

I do not think he can if I go by his reporting.



"1200 girls".

From where and just how did our hero's possibly illiterate program manager canvas a vast region neglected by the school system... even though there are 100,000 likely residents... and come up with that number?

How far afoot in a rural mountain community would 1200 girls have to travel to get to this school?

Mr. Fedarko was there and I have never been so how does he not tell me, the curious reader, just how 1200 girls will materialise in the middle of nofuckinwheristan?

The building itself has been described as two-story, about one hundred and fifty feet wide by three hundred feet long.


Mathstimation time:

Teacher to student ratio 30x1= 40 teachers=40 classrooms=1200 girls.

Office=2 rooms
Teacher lounge=2 rooms
Maintenance=2 rooms
Mechanical/electrical=2 rooms
Bathrooms=10 rooms

Fifty-eight room school... each floor 29 rooms.

45k sq feet/floor less hallway/stairs less wall loss divided by 29 rooms... we will call it a pretty big deal and agree I trust.

So perhaps, when standing in the middle of nofckinwheristan, our reporter might ask for a copy of the plans.

Yes... the drawings for the very large school that you would never build without even the most basic of plans right?


Does that $70K number make any sense to you right now?

Would you describe a foundation in the ground as "the jewel" of the regional program?

"filled with dirt, stones, and loose sand, future home..."

Dirt, stones and loose sand equate to "jewel" in this story.

Is it just me or...??


Cheers,
MoretocomeVark






.

dwoz
May 8th, 2011, 12:16 AM
Let's do some math.


If the foundation is the size of a football field, and it's a two story building, then we're talking about 85,000 square feet of floor space, give or take.

I'm going to assume that the building is going to be mostly stone and concrete.

But it's going to cost in the neighborhood of $75,000 dollars. (USD I assume).

Now...buildings in the USA that are open warehouses with no internal buildout will cost, on average, somewhere around $70-$85 per square foot. If the USA building has an internal buildout for school use, generally it will cost something in the range of $110-$140 per square foot.

Home building in the USA costs now, on average, $150 per square foot.

just for some additional perspective, I built a pole barn that was about 1000 square feet, using lumber materials off the land and recycled metal sheet siding/roofing, and it cost me about $3000, or about $3 per square foot. Dirt floors, no doors, and no expectation that members of the public would be entering it. If you include the cost of my labor, at pakistani labor rates, it doubles to $6 per square foot.

Now, pakistan is not the USA, and the cost of construction is different. But you can bet your sweet ass that a two story structure CANNOT be built for $1 per square foot. At least, not one that you would find still standing in 5 years.

ADD to that the unfortunate fact that an NGO building project in that region does not simply pay bottom dollar for materials and labor and away we go. It must pay off the local power structure, it must pay a graft and corruption premium.

So for me, the numbers just don't add up. I may just be a cave-man building and construction estimator, but it smells of old mastodon carcass that even the hyenas steer clear of.

Aardvark
May 8th, 2011, 02:43 AM
Remember me asking what the odds of 82 children from a village of 400 being at invisible school on their own unsupervised accord, writing in the frost with sticks in doing their math tables while sitting in a perfect circle?

Guess what.

Our Hero wrote the following story in 1993, published in the American Himilayan Foundation newsletter.

Please note the name of the village is different than Korphe, the village of magical children of the herding/schooling gene.



After seventy days on the mountain, I spent some time in Khane. When I asked to see the school, the villagers took me up to a dusty apricot grove on a hill behind the village. A group of 85 children, five to twelve years old, were sitting in the dirt, reciting spelling tables....


Now on the CAI website in the image section (https://www.ikat.org/media-and-press/image-gallery/)...

...81 Kids going to school in a trailer!

That is now the third collection of 80-some kids in our hero's tales.

Count them btw as best as you can.:headpalm:


Cheers,
Aardvark




.

Aardvark
May 9th, 2011, 07:28 AM
Got 'em cold as they say in necrophilia.


Let us back up and consider a few earlier discussions regarding compressions and ommissions.

Our hero, in the Outside Magazine interview, said the story of his trip to Korphe was in fact 'compressed' by (http://outsideonline.com/adventure/travel-ga-greg-mortenson-interview-sidwcmdev_155690.html) author/gotfuckedforhalfmyroyalties-co-author David Relin (Currently in hiding without a Doctors note... I guess a Lawyer's note works great in this case) and that he, Mortenson, is not to blame.

But you stand by the Korphe story as it was written?

Well, there are discrepancies that, again, have to do with compression of events....

Still, there are clear discrepancies between that version and what’s in Three Cups of Tea. In the book, you’re described as being in Korphe overnight, but now you think you were really there only a few hours. In the book, it says you went back to Korphe as soon as you could, and it’s during this second trip that you and Hajj Ali talk about you building a school there someday. When did that actually happen?

The second scene in Korphe about building a school happened in September 1994, a year later.

Then there was quite a bit of literary compression going on. You entered the village in September 1993, but you went back a year later, not a few days later, and talked about the school?

That’s correct.Relin wrote his fictitious tale long after and in no small part due to the 'Parade' article Kevin Fedarko wrote years earlier. (http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2003/edition_04-06-2003/Greg_Mortenson)

after spending 78 days on the mountain, Mortenson, a former U.S. Army medic, became so weak that he was forced to descend. On the way down, he was befriended by two porters who took him to their homes in Korphe and nursed him back to health.

While recovering, he observed the village’s 84 children sitting outside, scratching their lessons in the dirt with sticks. Korphe was so poor, it could not afford the $1-a-day salary to hire a teacher. “Those kids were so determined,” he recalls. “The fierceness of their desire to learn reminded me of Christa. And since I couldn’t help her anymore, I figured I had to find a way to help them.”So how did Relin 'compress' an event after Fedarko 'compressed' it?

Mortenson is a liar.

Plain and simple... and a gutless fuck who sells out the guy who wrote the book he didn't but took half the royalties for.

Read it and tell me different.



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

Aardvark
May 9th, 2011, 05:25 PM
Over the last few weeks I have been in touch with various folks who have information on this entire affair including Masood Ahmad who caught my attention by his writings on this and the fact his father was a remarkable pilot in Northern Pakistan.

Masood has asked me to help spread word of his video and I invite one and all to watch.

http://youtu.be/WiJ_u_Yx-G4


Cheers,
Aardvark


.

Wide-O
May 9th, 2011, 07:17 PM
I just watched that video, and it is excellent. I sometimes got lost with the names of the villages etc. before, but no more after seeing this video. :Thumbsup:

strix
May 9th, 2011, 08:21 PM
One other thing regarding Mortenson as a climber: according to Relin, “As with most pursuits he has ever cared deeply about, Greg Mortenson’s learning curve with climbing was as steep as the rock faces he was soon scaling. To hear him describe those first years in California, there was hardly an interval between the week-long course he took on Southern California’s Suicide Rocks and leading climbs of twenty-thousand-foot-plus peaks in Nepal” (43).
We aren’t told what year Mortenson moved to California. He started grad school in neurophysiology at Indiana University in 1986, in order to “find a cure for his sister,” but at some point became frustrated and dropped out. He then moved to the Bay Area, where he began working nights and holidays as a trauma nurse so that he could work out, run marathons, practice at a climbing gym, and go on expeditions in his spare time during the day (43-44). “From 1989 to 1992 my life was totally about climbing,” he says (44). He climbed the north face of Mount Baker and, in the Himalayas, Baruntse, Annapurna IV, and “several other Himalayan peaks” (44). Relin says earlier that before K2 Mortenson made “half a dozen successful Himalayan ascents” (10).
Now, how did Mortenson fit all this climbing into four years? Surely he wouldn’t be doing more than one Himalayan expedition a year, if only for financial reasons. The schedule for a current expedition to Baruntse gives 35 days from Kathmandu to the summit and back; for Annapurna IV it gives 43 days (www.nepalpanorama.com/nepal/expedition/baruntse-expedition.htm, www.nepalpanorama.com/nepal/expedition/annapurna-iv-expedition.htm). That’s a lot of time off work with no money coming in. And the expeditions themselves, including airfare, would cost more than a month’s income for a part-time trauma nurse. Surely Mortenson would have to go on at least a couple Himalayan expeditions led by others before anyone would consider him experienced enough to lead a Himalayan expedition himself. It’s a steep learning curve all right.
By the way, we are told that every year, no matter what he was doing, Mortenson had his sister Christa visit him for a month, even when he was a climbing bum in California living out of his car (9). I wonder what their mother thought about that? I also find it odd that Christa was taking great interest in her brother’s girlfriends and asking him “detailed questions about sex” (43), apparently when she was in her teens, and even odder that Mortenson’s account of her would include this.

Aardvark
May 9th, 2011, 10:05 PM
...To hear him describe

I bet Mr. Relin wishes he used that term more often.:Roll eyes:


Relin says earlier that before K2 Mortenson made “half a dozen successful Himalayan ascents” (10).If am litigating and Mr. Relin is on the stand, I would ask him if in the course of his two-hundred plus interviews had he attempted to verify this statement (And if so how did he?) or simply took our hero on his word. We are writing about a guy whose entire story begins with one of his climbing exploits so it seems a little verification there is a fundamental place to start Journalism 101.

...That’s a lot of time off work with no money coming in. And the expeditions themselves, including airfare, would cost more than a month’s income for a part-time trauma nurse.A months income?:lol::Wink:

Call part-time 100 hours a month at maybe $15/hr in 1990 and you have $18,000 a year. Live on that, subtract the difference and the Himalayan climbing trips are tough to budget for.

Imagine what kind of brilliant money manager he would have to be to so strictly and effectively turn so little into so much and to do it for four years running!



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

dwoz
May 10th, 2011, 02:47 AM
I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to malign the Mortenson sister.

Out of bounds. completely. bad slice you've got there.

take a mulligan and consider it a warning.

dwoz
May 10th, 2011, 02:53 AM
A months income?:lol::Wink:

Call part-time 100 hours a month at maybe $15/hr in 1990 and you have $18,000 a year. Live on that, subtract the difference and the Himalayan climbing trips are tough to budget for.


I used to have a freelance nurse as a roommate.


She made stupid good money. She was a full RN, emergency/trauma room certified, she "temped". The could pull down $50/hr for a 24 hour shift. That was in 1995.

Of course, you have to be insane to do that work in those kinds of shifts, and you couldn't do it constantly. and she was very insane. Great, fun, cool, but totally insane.

Aardvark
May 10th, 2011, 03:22 AM
I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to malign the Mortenson sister.

Out of bounds. completely. bad slice you've got there.

take a mulligan and consider it a warning.

Yeah... I kinda let that bit slide as it is in the publication but I agree it was not needed... although we have been guilty of similar dubious judgment or so accused in some quarters.:Roll eyes::Wink:

Let's leave Strix to deconstructing the climbing aspects of this whale of a tale.


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

strix
May 10th, 2011, 03:31 AM
Sorry--I didn't mean to malign the sister at all. I meant I think Greg was making that stuff up. Neither thing seemed at all likely.

dwoz
May 10th, 2011, 04:02 AM
no worries...it was a mulligan, after all.

Aardvark
May 10th, 2011, 04:17 AM
...I meant I think Greg was making that stuff up.

So now you are accusing our hero of making things up?

Based on what exactly?:lol:


Cheers,
PasdesweatVark



.

Aardvark
May 10th, 2011, 07:33 AM
More easily debunked numbers from Kevin Fedarko.

In his Outside article of 2008 Mr. Fedarko offers up a number of numbers that make no sense but this one (https://www.ikat.org/2008/12/01/no-bachcheh-2008/) is too much. (I am quoting his bullshit from a re-posting of it on the CAI site.)

In the 15 years since his Korphe experience, Mortenson has made 37 trips to Pakistan and Afghanistan, logging nearly 250,000 air miles a year...Okay... he averages two and a half trips per year from Montana to Islamabad, a distance of 6,000 miles... roughly 30,000 miles to get to and from his field of operation.

This leaves 220,000 miles a year, much of it by helicopter and smaller fixed wing aircraft, over a territory where no points are more than 1,000 miles away across international borders.

At a generous average airspeed of 160mph that is six pure hours of flying 220 days of the year inside his theater of operation... in a straight line.

Very little straight line flight with helicopters and many planes in these regions so more like eight hours a day.

Balderdash.

That is almost going to the moon in short hops in and around the mountainous regions of one of the world's most difficult flying circumstances while at the same time dropping off 5k cash for teachers in remote villages, planning and building schools in the middle of nowhere, meeting dozens and dozens of locals to have tea with... please... spare us the crap. John Krakauer may forgive Kevin Fedarko his sins of omission and compression but I sure can't find it in me.


Cheers,
Aardvark




.

dwoz
May 10th, 2011, 11:35 AM
I think it's better to put it in human, earthly terms.

The earth itself is about 26,000 miles in circumference.

250,000 air miles per year means "give or take" about NINE AND A HALF circumnavigations of the globe.

each year.

fitting that into the (37 / 15) = 2.5 trips per year to the relatively small area of afghanistan and pakistan means, well, an awful lot of zigging and zagging.

Pakistan is about 1100 miles long and about 625 miles wide.

Wide-O
May 10th, 2011, 01:09 PM
250,000 air miles per year means "give or take" about NINE AND A HALF circumnavigations of the globe.


Perhaps it was "time compressed"?

each year.


Bugger.

Aardvark
May 10th, 2011, 05:17 PM
Perhaps it was "time compressed"?


This is from his Parade article on our hero:

Mortenson, who is married and has two children, spends about five months a year in Central Asia

One hundred and fifty days to cover 220,000 miles... in the ballpark now of flying 1,500 miles every single day while in Central Asia... assuming the weather is always fine for flying and there is never a mechanical or manpower problem.:headpalm:

Do literary editors not have calculators or common sense?


But wait!

For a limited time offer we have another statistic pulled from somebody's ass... same article:


Students at CAI schools learn reading, math, science and languages. Last year, fifth-graders in these schools averaged 72% on the exams to qualify for middle school. (Pakistan’s national average was 44%.)

References please? Where does CAI come up with these numbers when they do not even know how many schools they run?

And how is a national average 44% (????) and how is it that his teachers and students score amazingly off the chart by comparison?



“In the past 10 years,” says Mortenson, “more than 80,000 Pakistani and Afghani boys who received hard-line religious instruction in these madrasas were fed directly into the ranks of the Taliban"

So where did those numbers come from?

Does the Taliban keep track or do the Saudi's maintain this data base, how did our hero get these numbers and how did our writer substantiate and confirm those numbers?

Non-fiction writing I remind you.



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

frnjplayer
May 10th, 2011, 05:43 PM
I used to have a freelance nurse as a roommate.


She made stupid good money. She was a full RN, emergency/trauma room certified, she "temped". The could pull down $50/hr for a 24 hour shift. That was in 1995.

Of course, you have to be insane to do that work in those kinds of shifts, and you couldn't do it constantly. and she was very insane. Great, fun, cool, but totally insane.

Of course on the other hand, if my reading was correct......
A med school dropout does not a trauma nurse make.

Aardvark
May 10th, 2011, 08:05 PM
Back to this (https://www.ikat.org/2008/12/01/no-bachcheh-2008/) chestnut for a moment:

In the 15 years since his Korphe experience, Mortenson has made 37 trips to Pakistan and Afghanistan, logging nearly 250,000 air miles a year while organizing the construction of 78 schools that currently serve some 28,000 students.15x250k=3.75 million miles flown in the years 1993-2007.

100,000 related miles per trip to Pakistan and Afghanistan.

This article is dated 2008 and our hero first visited Korphe in 1993 according to the non-fiction book TCOT and 'The Parade' article.

Our Hero does not do much flying from 1993-96 as he is broke and living in his van sort of thing. Even with an unlikely 20,000 miles per year that leaves another 900,000ish miles to make up in the next eleven years.

Now we are approaching the need to fly roughly 335,000 miles a year every year on average for the next eleven years.

That is almost 1,000 miles every single day for over a decade.

Given that TCOT did not come out until 2006 and was not a real hit until 2007, you can't rack up too many miles doing book tours so if we assume most of the miles were spent while in his area of operation he is now flying somewhere near 2,000 miles every single day when in Pakistan or Afghanistan.:headpalm:

My numbers are rough but point out how absurd the quoted statement is and how easily three minutes of thinking can demonstrate the obvious.

Oh yes... isn't there also the bit where the reporter asks where this incredible number comes from? If it is an average over fifteen years who has been keeping count of our hero's air mileage and did we fact-check this stupendous achievement in aviation passenger history?


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

Aardvark
May 10th, 2011, 08:36 PM
I am still a little stuck on this flying thing.

Mr Fedarko has given us an incredible number about all of the flying our hero does and a little further on says this:

Whenever Mortenson is on the road, he travels with at least two or three of these men at all times. In Pakistan, they spend weekends racing about in the CAI’s battered green Land Cruiser with a box of dynamite stashed under the passenger seat-where Mortenson usually sits-so they can blast through rockslides and avalanches without having to wait for government road crews.

In Afghanistan, they’ll travel for 30 hours at a stretch, pushing vehicles to the point of breakdown. In the spring and fall, they’ll hydroplane through mud-which can be three feet deep in the Wakhan-until the axles get buried. While the drivers schlep off to find a yak team, they take off their shoes, and sometimes their pants, and start walking.

So why all of the flying Kevin?:tinfoil:

After all:

they convene with the village heavy-weights for a jirga, or a council session. Jirgas are solem gatherings that feature long speeches and dense deliberation; they usually extend through dinner and last long into the night. Toward dawn, Mortenson and company cram into an empty room or bunk down on the floor of the school. Two hours later, the circus packs up and heads off to the next project. “Sometimes we don’t stop for five or six days,” says Sarfraz. “This is the only way to get to all the projects and to see all the people we need to see.”

So now the airplanes are out and it does not look good for helicopters either.

They drive everywhere.

In trucks.

Long, difficult and time consuming journeys in trucks.

Not aircraft.

Trucks.




Cheers,
WeneedmoresmiliesVark



.

dwoz
May 10th, 2011, 10:25 PM
You know what I like?

Mortenson's father-in-law is a photographer for National Geographic, and his folks were missionary-healthcare workers in Tanzania, yet there's a fairly notable...how shall I put it..."void" in the image records of the guy pulling his 5 big ascents.

Now, I understand the whole "cameras are yet another dangly thing to manage when you're on ropes and already carrying too much."

And for that very reason, most expeditions seem to pretty much have great photographic image records from load-in to base camp III, and then from base camp III on down again. Most high altitude technical climbing teams keep pretty careful and meticulous records, including image records, because they are dealing with scarce resources...scarce oxygen, scarce time, scarce daylight, scarce moments before the storm hits...and sometimes their lives depend on those records. How many hours were we on oxy bottle "D" yesterday? How much is left in it and is it worth it's weight to us from here up?

I am not a climber and am just bullshitting...but it seems interesting that there is a "hole" in the photographic record, in a place where there's usually ample photography.

At the very least, the team medic will make photographic records of injuries and such, PARTICULARLY if the climber opts to continue against the medic's advice.

Is this relevant or is it just blathering?

Mixerman
May 11th, 2011, 04:13 PM
Fascinating.

Aardy, I've had 50 kids peering down into the big hole in my stone hut before. Totally believable. You're nitpicking dude.

What I don't get is how it is a village produces boys at an 8:1 ratio of boys to girls. That's got to be some sort of statistical record. Maybe Mortensen's clinic does sperm separation and insemination to assist with the skewed ratios.

I would imagine Mortensen is hunkered down doing the research he probably should have done before weaving this obviously embellished yarn. Of course, explaining the creative emphasis in his creative non-fiction work seems to be the least of his worries at the moment.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

dwoz
May 11th, 2011, 10:58 PM
The other thing that strikes me in all of the source material for this story, is how breathless it all is.

What, was there a copyeditor's strike on for those years? Either that or they thought they were writing a script for that bounty hunter reality show.

Smileyblue
May 12th, 2011, 12:20 AM
I wanna know where the other $7,999.86 went...in his pocket?

The bag now holds 23 bricks of cash totaling $100,000. The cash is dusted with flour, and both men are running as if the devil himself were after them.

Soooo this means that each brick contains $4347.82. Yahhhhh....Ok so if we give him the benefit of the doubt.... Most banks that I have worked in, for transactions of this size ($100,000.00) would give you $100 bills, which means that there would be $4000.00 in each brick with a remaining $347.82 from each of the 23 bricks. $347.82 x 23 = $7999.86. The math is not adding up here people...

Maybe it's their Shipping and Handling Fee.....

dwoz
May 12th, 2011, 02:27 AM
I wanna know where the other $7,999.86 went...in his pocket?



Soooo this means that each brick contains $4347.82. Yahhhhh....Ok so if we give him the benefit of the doubt.... Most banks that I have worked in, for transactions of this size ($100,000.00) would give you $100 bills, which means that there would be $4000.00 in each brick with a remaining $347.82 from each of the 23 bricks. $347.82 x 23 = $7999.86. The math is not adding up here people...

Maybe it's their Shipping and Handling Fee.....


it could also be explained by the currency being $100,000 USD worth of some other currency.

johndou
May 12th, 2011, 10:55 AM
Aardy.

So all of this is just your way of saying that you wouldn't want this man to belay you?

Aardvark
May 13th, 2011, 08:20 PM
Aardy.

So all of this is just your way of saying that you wouldn't want this man to belay you?

Zero chance... especially given his heart problems... can't have the ticker going out of business in the middle of business.:Roll eyes:


From July of last year we get some insight from Kevin Fedarko (http://artandseek.net/2010/07/22/ghosts-at-the-mayborn-nonfiction-conference/).

...while ‘authorship’ may offer a spectrum of involvements and influences, consciously putting one’s name outfront on a book while the hired help does the heavy lifting inside – that’s a kind of bait-and-switch that leaves Fedarko with some serious reservations.

Fedarko: “Most ghostwriters are participating in what is ostensibly a literary enterprise but which is really more about marketing and packaging. And I think to a large extent that’s what I participated in as well.”


(It should be noted that Fedarko says it was his choice that his name doesn’t appear on the cover of Stones. He’s thanked inside. To appear on the cover, he says, was too much like claiming part of Mortenson’s activities.)So when "Outside" hires him to write about our hero for a second time and well after the success of TCOT, he produces a large, puffy and, as I think has been shown here clearly, fact challenged article with his name attached.

When our hero hires him to write a book that contains much of his published article from "Outside" he reportedly works 1,600 hours in 100 consecutive 16 hour workdays to bring it to publishing (for miserable wages he claims) and then asks to have his name kept off of the follow-up to a massive best-seller that came to be in no small way because of the "Parade" article HE wrote in 2003.

His name on the cover would have been a pretty sure bet of some nice royalty checks but he said no to that after 1,600 hours of poorly paid work.

Why?

Why do all of that work cheaply unless you are either getting a back-end deal or unless you are a blind believer in the cause... which seems at odds with:


"...more about marketing and packaging. And I think to a large extent that’s what I participated in as well."


Was it during the writing of "Stones" that Mr. Fedarko found his own road to Damascus?



Does it occur to him now that looking back at his two previous and very popular articles one can easily suggest he was "marketing and packaging" long before "Stones"?

How can it not?

David Relin felt, and quite rightfully so, that his huge investment of time and energy spent on TCOT was nothing less than full authorship but he settled for half the money and his name also on the cover.

Mr. Fedarko calls this "too much like claiming part of Mortenson’s activities" if I read him right. Seeing how he did not get the TCOT gig and Relin, after getting the gig, massively capitalised on a story that Fedarko made popular, could one fairly ask if this is a shot over the bow of Mr. Relin?

He certainly in this article has laid the groundwork for distancing himself from the kind 'compression and omission' allegations haunting Mr. Relin and TCOT but as we have seen here his previously published work on our hero is rife with journalistic failings.


Cheers,
Aardvark


.

dwoz
May 13th, 2011, 09:04 PM
As I understand it virtually ALL celebrity books are ghost-written. For example, I would love love love to see Sarah Palin's book without an actual wordsmith doing the heavy lifting.

Howard Stern's book was actually written by Judith Regan. (who ghosts a huge number of books)

I don't know what sort of hard-and-fast rules there are around ghost writers and what the process is...if there's a data dump at the start, if they're working from an outline, etc.

Spock
May 14th, 2011, 12:21 AM
I don't know what sort of hard-and-fast rules there are around ghost writers and what the process is...if there's a data dump at the start, if they're working from an outline, etc.


I know one co/ghost writer. I have a a few pictures in her books that she has directly written. Anyway, I heard a few stories from her about someone she co-work a book with. Also having met the the other co-writer I know she was not making up the "issues" she had. In her case some chapters were mainly one person or the other. Some were tons of back and forth, one person write it, the other read it and trash it, and try their hand it. Then hours an hours of talking arguing, etc. I suspect she disliked self serving BS and outright lies and butted heads over some things.

It ended up fine, and they are still good friends. When a ghost or co-writer refuses to talk about the book, that makes me think they got fed up with the BS and acted more proofing and helping tweak wording rather than help tell the story.

nobby
May 17th, 2011, 05:27 AM
just for some additional perspective, I built a pole barn that was about 1000 square feet, using lumber materials off the land and recycled metal sheet siding/roofing, and it cost me about $3000, or about $3 per square foot. Dirt floors, no doors, and no expectation that members of the public would be entering it.

With no doors, I would have no expectation of anyone entering it :grin:

Aardvark
December 5th, 2012, 06:40 PM
On a sad note, David Oliver Relin took his own (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/business/media/david-oliver-relin-co-author-of-three-cups-of-tea-dies-at-49.html) life a few weeks back.

He never made a public comment regarding the accusations of literary malfeasance forever attached to Greg Mortenson, his 'books' and or the puff-piece articles written for and about him.


:Confused:




Aardvark




.

ivmike
December 5th, 2012, 07:09 PM
On a sad note, David Oliver Relin took his own (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/business/media/david-oliver-relin-co-author-of-three-cups-of-tea-dies-at-49.html) life a few weeks back.

He never made a public comment regarding the accusations of literary malfeasance forever attached to Greg Mortenson, his 'books' and or the puff-piece articles written for and about him.


:Confused:




Aardvark




.

I read that in the Gazoo today....sad news, indeed.

G cubed
November 8th, 2013, 12:52 PM
Bump (Insurer to pay 'Three Cups' charity $1.2M)

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Insurer-to-pay-Three-Cups-charity-1-2M-4966354.php