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View Full Version : Dream Theater lookin' for a drummer



Johnny
April 26th, 2011, 08:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L609JsPFmmI&feature=player_embedded

Pretty fun to watch.

gonzo-x
April 26th, 2011, 08:46 PM
what a killer drummer.

weedywet
April 26th, 2011, 08:57 PM
yes it was.

thanks!

Johnny
April 26th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Mike's one of my heroes. I hope he gets the job.

Goes211
April 26th, 2011, 10:11 PM
That's NOT my type of music. At all.
I enjoyed the HELL out of that.
Where's the other episodes?
I WANT MORE!!!
:Coolio:


PS : these guys sound like a superb group of human beings.

Johnny
April 26th, 2011, 10:22 PM
Yeah, I've never been into them, and I like prog. Some friends toured with them and said they were just great to hang out with.

Tomorrow, 11:00 a.m. EST I think. Next should be Derek Roddy. Another superhero and all around good guy.

jason baliban
April 26th, 2011, 10:26 PM
I think it's a good change.

I have a love/hate thing with DT. They do some things that put them in a league of their own but at the same time they really struggle at writing music that doesnt use cliche's that are completely ripped off from Yes and Rush.

Oh, check out Petrucci using the Axe-FX!

jB

Fulcrum
April 26th, 2011, 10:37 PM
Having heard that Portnoy left the band, I honestly didn't think I was going to get sucked into all this. I have never ever cared about a single note Dream Theater has ever played (and that goes double for Jordan Rudess, one of the most technically gifted keyboardists of our generation); they have always left me not just cold but suspended-animation cold.

That said, I watched this and immediately subscribed to their channel so as to catch the next episode. Yes, now I'm curious.

Why did that guy epoxy an S.O.S pad to his chin, though?

archtop
April 27th, 2011, 12:30 AM
Man Mangini is SSSSSOOOOO fun.

coming from a guy who dislikes being in the presence of really loud drummers.

It is so right for that.

gonzo-x
April 27th, 2011, 12:52 AM
portnoy's been doing a project with Steve Morse.

sounds pretty exciting as well.
with a singer, no less.......

Fulcrum
April 27th, 2011, 02:34 AM
Steve Morse, or Neal Morse (no relation to the best of my knowledge)? I had heard that Transatlantic were back in the studio, but they might well merely be touring.

EDIT: Just visited the Transatlantic site. Apparently both Morses are involved after all, which I did not know. D'oh.

Aardvark
April 27th, 2011, 02:51 AM
Having heard that Portnoy left the band..

What was his complaint?:Coolio:



Cheers,
JerkingoffintosomeliverVark



.

Fulcrum
April 27th, 2011, 02:57 AM
Would you believe I actually saw that one coming?

Apparently so did you...

dwoz
April 27th, 2011, 04:04 AM
I used to have to wait for Dream Theater's singer every single friggin' time I went to get my mail at Berklee. His mailbox was right under mine, and we were in each other's way CONSTANTLY. Those guys were ALWAYS in an ensemble room, working shit out. Portnoy lived in the corridors down there.

Waltz Mastering
April 27th, 2011, 04:11 AM
I hope he gets the job.The prog stuff was never really my cup of tea, but I've recorded Mangini and his drums on about 5 or 6 albums that he's done and for the highly technical stuff, Mike's pretty amazing, ..and he can groove as well. Nice guy... . I'll bet he get's the gig.

Johnny
April 27th, 2011, 04:14 AM
I'd like to hear your approach to miking his setup.

Aardvark
April 27th, 2011, 04:40 AM
That's NOT my type of music. At all.
I enjoyed the HELL out of that.
Where's the other episodes?
I WANT MORE!!!
:Coolio:


PS : these guys sound like a superb group of human beings.

With you all the way here but in the first song he plays with the band I kept waiting to see the little children of Stonehenge start dancing about.

:lol:



Cheers,
SothisdrummerwalksintoabarVark



.

Waltz Mastering
April 27th, 2011, 05:08 AM
I'd like to hear your approach to miking his setup.
I had a lot of mics and tracks available. I usually did stereo room in front of the kit, stereo room behind the kit, mono M149 overhead, each cymbal Sm81's/at 4050's and tom had there own mic 414's/421's (his request). He usually had 2 snares. The main one got top and bottom 57/451. Small snare 57. For the kicks he was endorsed by shure and he had the pzm 90somethings permanently mounted inside that had wicked attack so I usually put either D112 or 421's outside...basically a lot of excess.

Sometimes he would bring in smaller kits so it wasn't always 20 or so mics, but he was pretty particular about his sound.

Barish
April 27th, 2011, 07:48 AM
I could almost hear Petrucci say "Mike, you were awesome. You set the bar very high, but you know... God is next in line, we'll see how He fares now, but you know, it is normally not possible to play with us, unless we let one to, so please bear that in mind, and thanks for coming, we'll let you know... and oh, the drumkit stays. Thanks."


An amazing drummer Mike Mangini really is, by the way. I think he suits this set up quite nicely. If I were them, I wouldn't audition anyone else. In fact, I would just ask him if he would be interested in being the drummer of the band straight away. I don't think that it is appropriate to ask people of such calibre to audition for anything. You just invite them, hang and jam around, and if it feels right then it feels right. If it doesn't then, still friends. No hard feelings.

But telling the man he has to wait for another seven drummers before knowing if he's the one? Come on...

B.

majestikc
April 27th, 2011, 07:56 AM
If Virgil Donati get's in, he will be the best musician in the band, but I probably still wouldn't listen.

Johnny
April 27th, 2011, 04:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vaDfcKzLbY

Johnny
April 27th, 2011, 04:23 PM
Pretty scary if they throw off Roddy and Lang.

And, man, do I love watching Marco Minnemann play!

Sad that they say the next ep is the finale.

gonzo-x
April 27th, 2011, 04:49 PM
where mike portnoy's been:


http://guitarinternational.com/2011/01/12/steve-morse-outstanding-in-his-field/


making and album with steve morse



Steve Morse: Yeah I can tell you, all they can do is get mad at me. [Laughs] I’m recording with a really good lineup of people and we just finished arranging the songs. There’s myself, Dave Larue, Mike Portnoy on drums and Neal Morse from Spock’s Beard, well formerly of Spock’s Beard. He’s done a lot of things with Portnoy, the latest thing was Transatlantic. So they’ve done a lot of Prog type albums.

Then, our vocalist is Casey McPherson, who’s in a band called Alpha Rev and was in another band Endochine. He’s like the young guy in the band, with a great voice and a great songwriter. So we’re meeting in this place in the middle of all our different influences and writing stuff together.

Tim Halligan
April 27th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Like Goes211, I'm not into this kind of "math rock" at all...

...but I'm finding these videos fascinating.

Cheers,
Tim

samc
April 27th, 2011, 07:36 PM
Although I'm fascinated by what they're doing the whole process seem very odd to me, especially after considering the drummers involved. These guys must really need/want this job badly to go through with this very scientific 'shoot out' process. I find some of the band's remarks and comments a little too condescending for my liking.

After the second video one could easily come to the conclusion that the band is actually just looking for the guy that can best 'clone' the previous drummer....

dwoz
April 27th, 2011, 07:55 PM
I'm a little surprised at how little singing is going on. One of the key features of a great drummer is his/her ability to support the singer without stomping on him/her.

Barish
April 27th, 2011, 08:11 PM
I'm a little surprised at how little singing is going on. One of the key features of a great drummer is his/her ability to support the singer without stomping on him/her.

Considering the fact that their lyrics don't mean shit, it doesn't really matter. Whether the singer's voice is heard or not in a given moment is purely a mixing decision in their music, IMNSHO.

B.

dwoz
April 27th, 2011, 08:22 PM
Although I'm fascinated by what they're doing the whole process seem very odd to me, especially after considering the drummers involved. These guys must really need/want this job badly to go through with this very scientific 'shoot out' process. I find some of the band's remarks and comments a little too condescending for my liking.


I would be very surprised if the actual sessions went down in quite the way they are shown here.

Dream Theater walks a tightrope here. They have a certain highly-defined niche, and in this transition to a new lineup they could easily lose a lot more than they gain. A new drummer could mean a new direction and new audience, which would be good, but it risks dropping off the audience share they hold now. I think they show that they're mindful of this.

MacGregor
April 27th, 2011, 08:30 PM
Man Mangini is SSSSSOOOOO fun.



I not only like his technique but also like to watch him drumming.

He has this "Moonish" kind of fun while playing. I LOVE that!

Mac
.

weedywet
April 27th, 2011, 08:30 PM
it's their band... they have every right, in fact they are SMART, to be protective of their hard earned success - whether you like them or not (and I don't)

they actually come across as pretty reasonable to me in that... which makes me think it's highly edited and scripted!

It's not just hiring a drummer who can play a session - they need a marriage that works for them and for their fans.

dwoz
April 27th, 2011, 08:58 PM
watching the 2nd vid, my suspicions in the first vid are confirmed:

the guy talking the least, is the guy who's likely actually making the decision. Myung.

Or, let's say, he likely has the right of first refusal.

otek
April 27th, 2011, 09:03 PM
Just going by the general feel, personality and sense of humor, I would have to agree with John Myung so far... Mangini and Minnemann are the two top choices so far. I'd be kind of surprised if one of them wasn't picked in the end.

That said, I am pretty stoked about the last part. Peter Wildoer (ex. Swedish metal band Darkane) will be interesting to watch (and probably a bit of a dark horse to most of you Americans out there).


otek

Fulcrum
April 27th, 2011, 09:49 PM
Otek and dwoz kind of beat me to it. Of the drummers in the first two episodes, you get the sense that Mangini and Minnemann were presented in a light that perhaps Roddy and Lang didn't quite receive from the editor of the doc. Lang in particular looked like he was merely giving a clinic.

To dwoz's earlier point about the drummer supporting the singer, I would reckon that (a) that's not necessarily what this music is about, which is one of the things that I dislike about DT, and (b) while these drummers may well be capable of supporting the singer and playing tastefully, they may not get that opportunity all that often in this context. I happen to like Portnoy's playing a lot more in Transatlantic than I ever did with DT because he proves he can slow his manic limbs down every once in a while and play merely what's required and not have to assault us with blast beats and tricky beat-shifting.

otek
April 27th, 2011, 10:07 PM
To dwoz's earlier point about the drummer supporting the singer, I would reckon that (a) that's not necessarily what this music is about

Also, the show is obviously produced in such a way as to put the focus on the drummers. The presence of vocals would immediately take some of that focus away. I'm sure that during the auditions, they did have vocals in there, but they probably ended up on the cutting room floor.


otek

archtop
April 27th, 2011, 10:50 PM
It's really nice to see smart people communicating well.

Aardvark
April 28th, 2011, 12:17 AM
Peter Wildoer will be interesting to watch...

A drummer named "Wildoer".:lol:



If the guitar player won't fuck 'er, the drummer 'll do 'er."


I wonder when he first heard that joke?


Cheers,
Aardvark



.

otek
April 28th, 2011, 06:18 AM
I wonder when he first heard that joke?

Probably on tour in Canada.

I hear similar jokes have some precedence up there. :D


otek

samc
April 28th, 2011, 11:12 AM
it's their band... they have every right, in fact they are SMART, to be protective of their hard earned success - whether you like them or not (and I don't)

they actually come across as pretty reasonable to me in that... which makes me think it's highly edited and scripted!
I'm with you totally up to this point, but...


It's not just hiring a drummer who can play a session - they need a marriage that works for them and for their fans.
If they are really looking for a 'clone' of their previous drummer why not just say so? Are they really in danger of loosing their fans if the new drummer add a couple extra snare hits in the song(s)?

I also question wether they will, or can learn anything really substantive about 'living with' any of the people in the shoot out, which seem (based on the videos) to be heavily concerned with the technical abilities of the drummer.

Maybe I'm missing something in this particular situation...

MacGregor
April 28th, 2011, 11:19 AM
Maybe I'm missing something in this particular situation...

I think it's quite easy: they want a drummer who is technically good enough to remember and play their stuff (that's the 1. test), is creative so he adds something when writing new songs (that's the jam/riff test), and is a nice enough guy to hang with for probably the rest of your life as an artist.

A clone is only needed for the first test, the rest is more or less a moving target.

Mac
.

Johnny
April 28th, 2011, 12:48 PM
Their audience is full of doodz air drumming to all the old songs.

Brendo
April 28th, 2011, 01:56 PM
I'm a little surprised at how little singing is going on. One of the key features of a great drummer is his/her ability to support the singer without stomping on him/her.

too bad their singer is fucking awful

otek
April 28th, 2011, 02:23 PM
If they are really looking for a 'clone' of their previous drummer why not just say so? Are they really in danger of loosing their fans if the new drummer add a couple extra snare hits in the song(s)?

I don't think they are looking for a clone exactly, but they are cognizant of the mentality of a large part of their audience.

Had it been a regular singer-centric pop/rock act, my guess is they would have gotten away with a lot more, but with a prog metal band, where the drummer is considered an icon with a lot of the fans, I think it is a more sensitive issue for them.

Other personnel changes of the same nature in the past would be like when Simon Phillips replaced Jeff Porcaro in Toto, or when Rob Trujillo became a permanent member of Metallica.


otek

Johnny
April 28th, 2011, 02:30 PM
too bad their singer is fucking awful

That's the main reason I've never been a fan.

archtop
April 28th, 2011, 02:49 PM
It's fair for you both to say you can't stand the singer.

but to say awful .... seems it's more of a personal taste thing than chops.

I don't have knowledge one way or the other ('cept the few seconds in vid 2)

dwoz
April 28th, 2011, 05:17 PM
I think at least half of the recorded singers in the world fall into the "fucking awful" category.

Fulcrum
April 28th, 2011, 05:32 PM
The law of averages would suggest so, yes.

Then again, the law of averages is far more lenient than Sturgeon's Law.

samc
April 28th, 2011, 08:12 PM
Had it been a regular singer-centric pop/rock act, my guess is they would have gotten away with a lot more, but with a prog metal band, where the drummer is considered an icon with a lot of the fans, I think it is a more sensitive issue for them.
I'm learning a lot this particular genre and what you, stated here has sunk in.

vocalnick
April 28th, 2011, 10:50 PM
It's fair for you both to say you can't stand the singer.

but to say awful .... seems it's more of a personal taste thing than chops.

I don't have knowledge one way or the other ('cept the few seconds in vid 2)

Agreed. It's very easy to stand on the sidelines and throw stones, particularly at singers who don't have any instruments or equipment to hide behind psychologically. James LaBrie puts himself out there, and plenty of people think he does a damn fine job.

I don't care for his singing a great deal these days, and his live performance has always been slightly shaky compared to his recorded work, but I think anyone wanting to dismiss it as "fucking awful" would want to be sporting a pretty damn good set of pipes themselves.

Come on Brendo, show us how it's done :)

dwoz
April 28th, 2011, 11:43 PM
SO WHO HAS THE LINK FOR EPISODE THREE ALREADY????????

Aardvark
April 28th, 2011, 11:51 PM
I have it somewhere... whatever.

Turns out at the end of the auditions the old drummer's roadie starts jammin' and being family and all...



:beer:




.

Fulcrum
April 29th, 2011, 12:06 AM
I had heard that James La Brie pulled a reverse Genesis.

Maybe I'd better go look.

Barish
April 29th, 2011, 12:07 AM
I thought it was a reverse Queensryche, no?

vocalnick
April 29th, 2011, 04:44 AM
I had heard that James La Brie pulled a reverse Genesis.

Maybe I'd better go look.

I think he did actually play drums in his pre-DT days...

Johnny
April 29th, 2011, 05:02 AM
FWIW, I don't think he's a bad singer, I just don't care for what he does. I'll be learning to like it if Mike gets the gig.

weedywet
April 29th, 2011, 05:51 AM
I not only like his technique but also like to watch him drumming.

He has this "Moonish" kind of fun while playing. I LOVE that!

Mac
.

I see that much more in Minnemann.
Mangini has that kind of studied, L.A., look about him.

Brendo
April 29th, 2011, 02:01 PM
Agreed. It's very easy to stand on the sidelines and throw stones, particularly at singers who don't have any instruments or equipment to hide behind psychologically.

its the accent. he has this weird accent he slips into sometimes. i can't fucking staaaaaaaand it. most of the time he manages to sing without it. and then it slips through. illusion ruined.

here, woeful:
UY1qYI3oY-0

although...wiki:


Food poisoning incident

On December 29, 1994, while vacationing in Cuba, LaBrie was stricken with a severe case of food poisoning from contaminated shrimp and while vomiting, he ruptured his vocal cords. He saw three throat specialists who all said there was nothing they could do except have him rest his voice as much as possible. However, on January 12, 1995, and against doctor's orders, he was on the "Awake" tour in Japan with his voice far from normal.[6] LaBrie has said he did not feel vocally "normal" until at least 2002. LaBrie has said that this was a very hard time for him as a singer, and depression as a result caused him to consider departing from the band, although his bandmates supported him and told him to stay. After the "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" tour he discovered that his voice had fully returned. He has said that his voice was fully healed by time and training.

Brendo
April 29th, 2011, 02:05 PM
I've just realised that this band are even cleverer than I thought! This whole thing is a set up, I expect they chose the drummer they really want late last year and this is all to generate publicity and ,maybe get new fans- and it is working- people are talking about Dream Theatre again. I expect they have really spent the last few months recording the new album with Marco Minneman in secret- they wrote the new album with him in the latter months of 2010.
See how after the new drummer is announced they miraculously write and record a new album with him in mere weeks.....

er... john petrucci's update march 19th:



As for the new Dream Theater album, it is going incredibly well and I can't wait for everyone to hear it! We are in the tracking process and working hard as well as just having so much fun.

I appreciate everyone's patience regarding the announcement (or lack thereof!) of DT's new drummer. I know it has been very frustrating to have to wait for the news. Believe me, we are busting at the seems to tell everyone and rest assured that our decision will not disappoint on any level!

As for info and details on the new album, anything such as the title, song names, running times, artwork, direction etc, will be posted on the official DT and Roadrunner sites once the album is complete and we begin to prepare for it's release.

frnjplayer
April 29th, 2011, 02:53 PM
I have it somewhere... whatever.

Turns out at the end of the auditions the old drummer's roadie starts jammin' and being family and all...



:beer:




.

Actually that's the story on Little Feat's new drummer. Richie Hayward is another large set o shoes to fill.

Johnny
April 29th, 2011, 03:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QHMQjH17aw

This whole thing was done very well. I won't comment on the choice 'til everyone's had a chance to watch.

Waltz Mastering
April 29th, 2011, 03:38 PM
please delete - video was already posted.

Tim Halligan
April 29th, 2011, 04:06 PM
Based upon all of the auditions that the editing showed us, that is not what I expected.


Cheers,
Tim

Waltz Mastering
April 29th, 2011, 05:27 PM
Mangini sort of already had an in with the band and had also recorded with James for his solo Mullmuzzler albums.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MullMuzzler_2
__________________

plughead
April 29th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Tho I'm not a fan of 'reality show' BS, this was done really well. AFAIC, there were 3 standout drummers, and they chose one of the two who I thought sat best in that chair.

Insane to think there's a host of drummers out there that could sit in on their gig and not miss a beat. THAT is extreme musicianship at THE highest level.:Thumbsup:

TBH, I enjoyed both Mangini and Minneman, but was hoping Marco would win the chair as he has that something different than any of the others, and his mood and fervor are exhilarating and infectious. Mangini also has something huge to bring, but seems a bit more clownish in such a serious bunch.

In any case, I'm sure he'll do them justice...

Johnny
April 29th, 2011, 06:01 PM
Marco is more suited to something less heavy, IMO. Something more Zappa-esque.

Mike's perfect for the gig. He likes to clown around but he's also a guy who reads physics books for fun.

Weedy commented about him being "studied." He's written two excellent books on rhythm, and practicing, which are just amazing for any instrument. His methods kind of dovetail with books like Talent is Overrated and The Talent Code. Lang's and Minnemann's books and videos are great too, from a purely drummer perspective. But Mike's stuff is game changing. It's how I became a fan, checking out his instructional stuff led me to seek out his music.

otek
April 29th, 2011, 10:39 PM
I kind of saw it coming.

Just like Myung, I definitely thought Marco or Mike were the best fit for the band, the video was done in such a way that one didn't get much of an idea of Peter Wildoer's performance, but the band seemed to think quite highly of him too.

As much as one might think it shouldn't have any bearing on the situation, I think a big reason the band felt more comfortable with Mike in the end, is that he is also an American. I speak from experience when I say that being of the same culture and knowing all the little social cues really helps in any situation, particularly in a high-stress, first-impression kind of scenario such as this. This obviously wouldn't have been crucial if the performance/chemistry factor weren't as much of a tie to begin with, but in a very even playing field like this, I can totally see where it would be important.


otek

Barish
April 29th, 2011, 10:48 PM
After watching the three episodes, I too have the opinion that they had already made their minds up about Mangini before even calling the other guys in for an audition. But this does not take away the fact that Mangini was the only guy who gave them what they wanted with no errors or "give me some time to figure it out". It's obviously a very high level game, even though we time by time find ourselves taking the piss out of such level of nerdiness for Pop's sake.

B.

weedywet
April 30th, 2011, 12:10 AM
By the way, when I said studied, what I meant was he looked like he practiced looking 'like a rock drummer' in front of a mirror

Not about his playing. He had that LA made for tv smiley thing that I personally find very UNrock

If it were me, and barring some personality flaw that wasn't shown, I would have picked Minnemann in two seconds of seeing him play with them

Tim Halligan
April 30th, 2011, 04:19 AM
If it were me, and barring some personality flaw that wasn't shown, I would have picked Minnemann in two seconds of seeing him play with them

Likewise.

I think the keyboard player's description of the joy in Marco's playing spoke volumes...so much so that I went back to watch both of their auditions again to see if I had missed a clue...


...and I still would've given the gig to Marco.


I think otek makes a great point about having the same cultural background being a factor...and even though it wasn't mentioned in the videos, I wonder how much weight that carried...whether or not they had explicitly talked about that amongst themselves.

I would love to see the entire auditions of both Mike and Marco...that would probably reveal much.

Still, it was interesting to watch.

Now I can go back to having the band completely off my radar. :D

Cheers,
Tim

Aardvark
April 30th, 2011, 04:48 AM
Mangini played the parts perfectly.


Marco played the part perfectly.


Swedish dude played the music perfectly.


The band chose the cute guy.:headpalm:



Cheers,
Aardvark



.

Holm
April 30th, 2011, 08:02 AM
+ 3 on the American thing. That's what I also thought. Would have picked Minneman in a heartbeat.

Of course, it could be that he is a bit too funny either for a "serious prog metal band" or at least for some prog metal fans that tend to take all things a bit too seriously.

And it could be, that the swing factor was that Mangini apparently really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really wanted to be in the band.

Barish
April 30th, 2011, 08:36 AM
...barring some personality flaw that wasn't shown, I would have picked Minnemann...

That's interesting. Would you mind elaborating on that "personality flaw" that we missed, William?

B.

vocalnick
April 30th, 2011, 09:24 AM
That's interesting. Would you mind elaborating on that "personality flaw" that we missed, William?

B.

I can tell that your personality flaw is that you misunderstand people on the internet :)

Brendo
April 30th, 2011, 09:33 AM
That's interesting. Would you mind elaborating on that "personality flaw" that we missed, William?

B.

Nick is right of course - weedy meant that perhaps Minneman has some personality flaw which wasn't shown in the videos, but if we discount that possibility and choose based purely on what the videos show, weedy thinks that Minneman would have been the better choice.


I think otek makes a great point about having the same cultural background being a factor...and even though it wasn't mentioned in the videos, I wonder how much weight that carried...whether or not they had explicitly talked about that amongst themselves.

I would love to see the entire auditions of both Mike and Marco...that would probably reveal much.

This, plus my money is also on that he had issues with test number 2 or 3 perhaps.

Barish
April 30th, 2011, 09:57 AM
I can tell that your personality flaw is that you misunderstand people on the internet :)

You may be right :grin:

Thanks for making it clearer for me Brendo.

I thought and expressed from the beginning that inviting people of such calibre to audition for a membership in a band, and then choosing one of them as "the one that can play our mighty and otherwise inplayable by other mortals music" and displaying the other drummers as lesser talents was very arrogant and insulting.

I particularly felt for that Brazilian guy. I don't know what he was thinking when he decided to cancel a few of his gigs with his regular clients, go through those already insulting enough visa procedures, and document it all, and then fly all the way to NYC for an audition that he clearly states that he never did any before, and get displayed in the end as a musician who is not capable of delivering some nonsense riff with nonsense time signatures the band thinks is the core to their music. You could see the dejection in his face.

Same goes for the other drummers. How fair is it to let these players in a situation where they will be pointed at by the audience in other people's gigs and talked about as "you know, he pitched for the Dream Theatre but he was not good enough..." purely because the audience is shown their reluctancy in giving into a musical piece with Asperger syndrome on a promo video?

I don't like the outcome of this series of videos.

B.

MKZ
April 30th, 2011, 10:06 AM
I can't see the "American cultural thing" as being a factor as their bass player is Korean!

He's american. Born in Chicago according to wikipedia.

samc
April 30th, 2011, 10:45 AM
You may be right :grin:

Thanks for making it clearer for me Brendo.

I thought and expressed from the beginning that inviting people of such calibre to audition for a membership in a band, and then choosing one of them as "the one that can play our mighty and otherwise inplayable by other mortals music" and displaying the other drummers as lesser talents was very arrogant and insulting.

I particularly felt for that Brazilian guy. I don't know what he was thinking when he decided to cancel a few of his gigs with his regular clients, go through those already insulting enough visa procedures, and document it all, and then fly all the way to NYC for an audition that he clearly states that he never did any before, and get displayed in the end as a musician who is not capable of delivering some nonsense riff with nonsense time signatures the band thinks is the core to their music. You could see the dejection in his face.

Same goes for the other drummers. How fair is it to let these players in a situation where they will be pointed at by the audience in other people's gigs and talked about as "you know, he pitched for the Dream Theatre but he was not good enough..." purely because the audience is shown their reluctancy in giving into a musical piece with Asperger syndrome on a promo video?

I felt the same way about the way this was organized too.

Brendo
April 30th, 2011, 11:56 AM
Mangini's one of the fastest drummers in the world apparently:


At his height from 2002–2005, Mangini was notorious for setting five World's Fastest Drummer records. These include the Fastest Matched Grip at 1,247 single strokes in 60 seconds in 2005, Fastest Barehands, which he earned by executing 1,138 single stroke notes in 60 seconds in 2002, until Glen Sobel (Of Beautiful Creatures) broke it with 1,140 notes in 2006. Fastest Traditional Grip which he earned by executing 1,126 single strokes in 60 seconds in 2003, a record that stood for five years before falling to Matt Smith (1,132) in 2008, and Fastest Single Stroke Foot record playing 13,222 hits in 15 minutes and 4,555 hits in five minutes; records that stood for two years before falling to Mike "Machine" Mallais (13,309/4,595) in 2007.

And here he is on high speed camera:
w8Gxut0odyc

vocalnick
April 30th, 2011, 12:29 PM
Nick is right of course - weedy meant that perhaps Minneman has some personality flaw which wasn't shown in the videos, but if we discount that possibility and choose based purely on what the videos show, weedy thinks that Minneman would have been the better choice.

I really like Marco Minneman's work, and I agree that he acquitted himself really well on the videos. But to be honest, we saw three days condensed into one hour. As somebody who shoots and edits video as a pretty big portion of his day job, I can definitely attest to the notion that there's a huge amount of story that's not told in the final result.

At the end of the day I feel that they weren't just after the best drummer - they were after the best fit for their band. DT have been on a fairly constant write-record-tour cycle for as long as I've known about them (I think I first heard Images and Words in 1993), and that equates to a massive number of hours with the same people. I'd sugges that if Minneman, Mangini and Wildoer all played great, then it ultimately came down to who they'd feel most comfortable sharing a huge slice of their lives with.

I used to be a huge Dream Theater fan from the mid-90s to around 2000, but that's waned considerably since then. I have to admit, this is probably the first album of theirs I've had any serious level of anticipation for in about a decade. If you've followed the band at all, you'll appreciate what a revelation these documentaries have been. Until late last year the whole thing seems very much to have been "The Mike Portnoy Show". I'm very keen to hear what they do next.

Tim Halligan
April 30th, 2011, 12:51 PM
I thought and expressed from the beginning that inviting people of such calibre to audition for a membership in a band, and then choosing one of them as "the one that can play our mighty and otherwise inplayable by other mortals music" and displaying the other drummers as lesser talents was very arrogant and insulting.


As far as I can tell, this audition process is like the audition process for any band...with the only point of difference being that the process was filmed in order to make the documentary series...and let's face it - at that level of the business, how you cope with a camera being shoved in your face is almost as much a part of the test as anything else.

1. Here...learn these songs.

2. Let's have a jam.

3. Sit down...let's have a chat.

4. Thanks for coming. Obviously we have other people to see...we'll let you know as soon as possible.

:D

Cheers,
Tim

Barish
April 30th, 2011, 01:02 PM
how you cope with a camera being shoved in your face is almost as much a part of the test as anything else.

1. Here...learn these songs.

2. Let's have a jam.

3. Sit down...let's have a chat.

4. Thanks for coming. Obviously we have other people to see...we'll let you know as soon as possible.

:D


...and of couse, he whom is the best in drama gets the gig...

B.

Tim Halligan
April 30th, 2011, 01:04 PM
...and of couse, he whom is the best in drama gets the gig...

B.

Based on that, then DT should be sacking the bass player.

:lol:


Cheers,
Tim

Barish
April 30th, 2011, 01:22 PM
Based on that, then DT should be sacking the bass player.

:lol:


Cheers,
Tim

He is Fred Fenster.

He's one of the main characters in the line-up, but no matter what he says or does, it doesn't affect the course of the script.

That's why he's either quiet, or he just mumbles some unintelligible words and then goes...

"I want my lawyer..."

Then the scene cuts back to Portnoy, waving himself out from the room in a slo-mo fading to black.

B.

Johnny
April 30th, 2011, 01:54 PM
I don't see the process as any different than any other audition except in content. Zappa would throw The Black Page or Mo & Herb's Vacation at guys. Some excellent musicians got tripped up by that.

I thought the video made it clear that the guys who didn't cut it "failed" only in the sense that they learn that type of thing differently. The DT guys wanted someone who can learn complex material the way they work it out. Every drummer watching knows Lang can play that stuff.

samc
April 30th, 2011, 02:14 PM
As far as I can tell, this audition process is like the audition process for any band...with the only point of difference being that the process was filmed in order to make the documentary series...and let's face it - at that level of the business, how you cope with a camera being shoved in your face is almost as much a part of the test as anything else.
To be honest, I don't remember any other selection process that made me feel the same way I do about this one, and that includes the Metallica bass player selection...

But that could be due to how the video was edited and/or the way drummers/bands in this genre are expected to perform; playing every note and beat in the same place all the time.

otek
April 30th, 2011, 02:21 PM
I thought the video made it clear that the guys who didn't cut it "failed" only in the sense that they learn that type of thing differently. The DT guys wanted someone who can learn complex material the way they work it out. Every drummer watching knows Lang can play that stuff.

I thought so too.

Any of these guys would be more than capable of just playing the material. It's about fitting in personality-wise, and fitting in with the modus operandi of the band.

It occurs to me that the band may have also been seeking for attributes in the replacement drummer that they might have been dissatisfied with in Portnoy.

It also occurs to me that Portnoy himself might have done far worse on the "unprepared" parts than any of these guys, including Roddy and Priester.

Personally, I would have picked Minnemann. Then again, I've been a fan of his playing for years.


otek

dwoz
April 30th, 2011, 02:47 PM
agreed.

The statement, made earlier in this thread, that six of them "weren't good enough" to play in DT, is ridiculous.

Unless you have two drum chairs, you have to pick one guy.

Let's all remember the other part too. The person coming in has to be free of other conflicting entanglements, has to be in a similar place, home life-wise, child rearing-wise, has to be able FINANCIALLY to take the gig, and who knows what kind of financial arrangement was offered? Three of the guys may have recused themselves based on that alone. Perhaps the South American gent was the best musical choice, but he would not move away from his home?

Barish
April 30th, 2011, 03:02 PM
The statement, made earlier in this thread, that six of them "weren't good enough" to play in DT, is ridiculous.


That's not the impression I got from this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QHMQjH17aw#t=3m44s

But then again, I have this character flaw that makes me misunderstand people on the internet :grin:

B.

frnjplayer
April 30th, 2011, 03:35 PM
Based on that, then DT should be sacking the bass player.

:lol:


Cheers,
Tim

That's when I thought that Wildoer actually had a shot at the chair.
Myung actually cracked a small smile while he was playing.

Waltz Mastering
April 30th, 2011, 05:17 PM
+ 3 on the American thing.
Fwiw Labrie is Canadian. Big hockey fan as well.

weedywet
April 30th, 2011, 05:30 PM
i think they didn't want a drummer who was taller than the rest of them.

Damage, Inc.
April 30th, 2011, 07:14 PM
I didn't bother watching this until last night because, as much as I love John Petrucci's playing, I haven't bought a DT disc since the mid '90s. But once I watched one, it sucked me in and I had to watch all of them. These guys are supremely confident but also quite humble, as demonstrated in numerous interviews over the years. I remember years ago when the Blind Melon guys attacked JP's playing and his response was basically just "well, it's their opinion."

I don't think any of them enjoyed talking about the shortcomings of any of the players, but I did notice they were quick to point out that some of the drummers interpreted Mike's parts rather than played them as is. They realize what the band means to its fans, and are careful to keep the legacy intact. I didn't get any bad vibes from the process at all.

bigbone
April 30th, 2011, 07:38 PM
i think they didn't want a drummer who was taller than the rest of them.

To bad you don't play the drums, you will have fit the bill.....:very happy:

MacGregor
April 30th, 2011, 07:59 PM
i think they didn't want a drummer who was taller than the rest of them.
To bad you don't play the drums, you will have fit the bill.....:very happy:

On a more serious note, I had the impression that their bass player was quite good. At least as far as I, as a non-bass-player, can judge this. Weedy, would it be hard for you to play something like this?

Mac
.

Aardvark
April 30th, 2011, 09:46 PM
Weedy, would it be hard for you to play something like this?
.

Dude... he plays in Blues band!:Razz:


Cheers,
RetardVArk



.

otek
April 30th, 2011, 10:28 PM
Fwiw Labrie is Canadian.

Fair enough, but that's kind of like the cultural difference between a Swede and a Norwegian, except you speak the same language.

The difference is not ALL that big. Whereas for, say, a Swede coming to America, the adjustment is definitely more noticeable.


otek

dwoz
April 30th, 2011, 11:46 PM
On a more serious note, I had the impression that their bass player was quite good. At least as far as I, as a non-bass-player, can judge this. Weedy, would it be hard for you to play something like this?

Mac
.


Myung is certainly a competent player. He plays some Stick too, which of course means that I am inclined to like him no matter what.

He's nothing of the melodicist that, say, Vic Wooten is. You might say that his role was just to accent Portnoy's kik....but another side of that is that he was entirely capable of keeping up with Portnoy's kik. No small feat.

CloseToTheEdge
May 1st, 2011, 04:02 AM
It's always so hard to analyze something like this without actually being there. What was edited out might make any one of the drummers appear totally amazing, or less than that.

I thought they did a professional job of structuring the auditions fairly and gave the aspiring drummers a level playing field by following a process with everyone. I've gone through the audition process more than a few times and it's interesting to know that they did something very similar to what other bands do in spite of their lofty position.

In the end, they valued someone who:

they felt they would welcome into the 'family'
could clearly do the job
really wanted to do the job

I think they made an excellent pick, but they had an amazing group from which to choose.

Thanks for posting the links to this, I enjoyed it immensely.

samc
May 1st, 2011, 07:26 AM
Is the ability to play (drum and bass) really fast the new 'good'?

otek
May 1st, 2011, 12:10 PM
Is the ability to play (drum and bass) really fast the new 'good'?

Music has always been flirting with sporting events and variety shows, from the "cutting heads" duels between blues men, and probably way before that. I have a feeling Paganini wasn't only thinking about the musical expression as such when he wrote the 24 Caprices, and Bach was said to play the organ so fast at times, the choir couldn't follow him.

Those things are fleeting and empty, however, unless combined with a supreme musical vision. I suppose they're also a part of the coming of age, in a musical sense.

Also, I don't believe technical proficiency can ever be a bad thing in and of itself. Classical musicians are practically required to have it. Unfortunately, however, it frequently leads to a certain mindset among particularly the fans.


otek

MacGregor
May 1st, 2011, 12:57 PM
If I remember correctly in the self-introduction-scenes did one guy wear a "More Cowbell" shirt.

Did he win?

Mac
.

Johnny
May 1st, 2011, 01:39 PM
There's a lot more to Mike than speed, but he uses that power for good.

bigbone
May 1st, 2011, 03:12 PM
The goal i guess, about the new drummer, was that the peoples talk about the band, 6 pages talking about the drummer,
will there be 6 pages about there new CD..............

Fulcrum
May 1st, 2011, 03:20 PM
Is the ability to play (drum and bass) really fast the new 'good'?

I think they said the same thing about be-bop back in the day.

Plus ça change...

samc
May 1st, 2011, 03:22 PM
fast + good is the new good......

There are a lot of really great drummers who probably could not play as fast as these guys where does that leave them?

Tim Halligan
May 1st, 2011, 03:25 PM
...where does that leave them?

In another genre.






































Lucky them! :D


Cheers,
Tim

samc
May 1st, 2011, 03:27 PM
Also, I don't believe technical proficiency can ever be a bad thing in and of itself. Classical musicians are practically required to have it. Unfortunately, however, it frequently leads to a certain mindset among particularly the fans.
I specifically said 'fast', not technical, you don't have to play super fast to be technical.

I ask this because it seems that most/some people in the thread have made the parallel between the two; fast=good.

weedywet
May 1st, 2011, 03:47 PM
the audition began with playing the parts the previous drummer played...

he played some fast parts.

therefore...

samc
May 1st, 2011, 04:06 PM
I have nothing against playing fast...I asked the question because some people kept associating fast playing with being good.

otek
May 1st, 2011, 05:00 PM
I specifically said 'fast', not technical, you don't have to play super fast to be technical.

Fair enough, but the qualities that allow a drummer to play fast (coordination, dexterity, posture, cognitive aspects, etc.) are a big part of the technical aspects of playing an instrument - tone shaping being the other one, although that too relies on some of the same qualities.


otek

CloseToTheEdge
May 1st, 2011, 05:16 PM
I don't equate fast with good, on drums, or guitar, or with women, or anything else other than racing.

With drums, I think to be good, you have to create an amazing groove that drives the music in the intended direction along with tasteful fills (appropriate for the genre) that wins the day. Without the groove, there is nothing.

Fulcrum
May 1st, 2011, 05:51 PM
At this juncture of the conversation I am reminded of something Robert Fripp said on the subject: that it's easy to play 16th notes at allegro, but quite a sight more difficult to play them andante or largo. I've found that to be the case.

Barish
May 1st, 2011, 06:30 PM
I'm trying to cut to the chase. So, Mixerman lost the gig, am I right?

B.

Waltz Mastering
May 1st, 2011, 11:37 PM
I specifically said 'fast', not technical, you don't have to play super fast to be technical.

I ask this because it seems that most/some people in the thread have made the parallel between the two; fast=good.
I can appreciate the playing of someone like Steve Jordan who is a groove monster just as much as someone like Bozzio. It's just two different schools. Both are great in their own right.


Fair enough, but that's kind of like the cultural difference between a Swede and a Norwegian, except you speak the same language.

The difference is not ALL that big. Whereas for, say, a Swede coming to America, the adjustment is definitely more noticeable.

otek True dat.

archtop
May 2nd, 2011, 01:46 AM
I don't equate fast with good, on drums, or guitar, or with women, or anything else other than racing.

With drums, I think to be good, you have to create an amazing groove that drives the music in the intended direction along with tasteful fills (appropriate for the genre) that wins the day. Without the groove, there is nothing.

Don't forget loud.

All the GOOD drummers are LOUD.

archtop
May 2nd, 2011, 01:47 AM
I forgot the sarcastic smiley.


and this is my 999th post.

weedywet
May 2nd, 2011, 02:51 AM
I can appreciate the playing of someone like Steve Jordan who is a groove monster just as much as someone like Bozzio. It's just two different schools. Both are great in their own right.

True dat.

well, one is

truer, dat

Mick Stuart
May 2nd, 2011, 05:34 PM
Good watch Johnny, thanks for posting!

Goes211
May 2nd, 2011, 08:08 PM
I'm trying to cut to the chase. So, Mixerman lost the gig, am I right?

B.

Well, MM insisted on keeping it 4/4, and called the other options "bullshit".
And he did suggest Steve Jordan, too.

Barish
May 3rd, 2011, 12:08 AM
Apparently he can't mix odd time signatures because the delay time calculations get messy and he can't be bothered, heh...

otek
May 3rd, 2011, 11:32 AM
Very true, nothing worse than a quiet drummer in a rock band!!!

Archtops sarcasm doesn't seem to find purchase in this case. :lol:


otek

archtop
May 3rd, 2011, 03:30 PM
I find it interesting that hard hitting loud is equated with good.

Hard hitting is loud. It has fuck-all to do with good.

The thing that everybody is dancing around, and they keep having to use the
"ROCK " disclaimer is that "ROCK" "METAL" "PUNK" etc require posturing and posing and fashion.

That whole thing of "nothing worse than a quiet drummer on a ROCK gig"

speaks volumes (get it VOLUME ) about what is wanted in rock.
(no mention of quality)


Like I've been saying it ain't about the music.

machismo tuff guy attitude.


I find it fitting that this is my 1000th post and it's about loud drumming.

This shit means a lot to me.

I'm a full time music guy.

I've been engineering since '81

I played yellow submarine on electric guitar for 3rd grade show and tell.

I'm very passionate about all thing music/audio.

TOO LOUD IS THE ENEMY OF HEARING.

I just can't believe I'm in this camp by myself in a forum dedicated to audio.

And I'm using "drummer hitting to hard" unfairly.

It's ANYBODY on stage that is way TOO LOUD (my thursday gig guitarist :Roll eyes: )

It's another level of goodness that can be attained ---NOT TOO FUCKING LOUD

You all know what it does in a recording/mix.

It's the same shit in real life. Fatiguing. Damages hearing. Ugly.

Audio people might carry earplug, but your average person does not.

Did I mention this is my 1000th post :very happy:

Mangini has incredible chops.

He wouldn't be as good if he wasn't that loud?


Oh yeah, this is my 1000th post

Johnny
May 3rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpd82q81RIs&feature=related

archtop
May 3rd, 2011, 05:42 PM
Thank you Johnny, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
You don't have to hit hard to be good.

Hey this is my 1001st post :)

Johnny
May 3rd, 2011, 05:49 PM
It's a new era!

MacGregor
May 3rd, 2011, 06:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpd82q81RIs&feature=related

Now I love you again, Johnny :)

Unfortunately no one told you that IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO POST PREVIEWS of the next Dream Theater album.

NonDisclosureMac
.

weedywet
May 3rd, 2011, 06:36 PM
I find it interesting that hard hitting loud is equated with good.

Hard hitting is loud. It has fuck-all to do with good.


no one did equate it.
"hitting" softly also has "fuck all to do with good".
in fact they are more often inversely proportional.

I did however make the observation that I've encountered many more (as in probably a 20:1 ratio) great hard hitting drummers than soft playing ones.




That whole thing of "nothing worse than a quiet drummer on a ROCK gig"

speaks volumes (get it VOLUME ) about what is wanted in rock.
(no mention of quality)




passion, excitement, anarchy, sex, energy, rebellion, lack of inhibition...
that's what's "wanted" in rock

that's ALL about the music.




This shit means a lot to me.

I'm a full time music guy.

I've been engineering since '81

I played yellow submarine on electric guitar for 3rd grade show and tell.


and I"ve been since 1969
I sang Yellow Submarine in the back of the van on tour - when it first came out, where I was already learning what makes for a successful rock band and rock record.
you were learning the multiplication tables.

so now, can we stop posturing about our bona fides?




TOO LOUD IS THE ENEMY OF HEARING.



sort of.
duration of exposure is also crucially important if you're having a serious discussion and not just an alarmist knee-jerk one.
Boiler factory workers ended up routinely with hearing loss, but if you just walked in the door you wouldn't cover your ears and go "ow!". It's that they're there for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

but anyway, is the drummer the limiting factour in how "loud" the band is?
does the PA, for example, have anything to do with how loud it is for the audience?
or are we only considered with your ears?
does something STOP you from wearing hearing protection for yourself if your view is that as a 'passionate' audio professional your hearing needs at all time to be protected form any loud sounds?




And I'm using "drummer hitting to hard" unfairly.

It's ANYBODY on stage that is way TOO LOUD (my thursday gig guitarist :Roll eyes: )

It's another level of goodness that can be attained ---NOT TOO FUCKING LOUD

yawn.
that word "too" seems important... I could be wrong...





Mangini has incredible chops.

He wouldn't be as good if he wasn't that loud?



He probably wouldn't get the gig.
and they'd probably be right.
but unless you HEARD what HE sounds like playing softly, you don't know.

Oh, and it's "if he weren't that loud", strictly speaking - unless you meant when he had been previously quieter.




I just can't believe I'm in this camp by myself in a forum dedicated to audio.


maybe that should actually tell you something?

archtop
May 3rd, 2011, 08:56 PM
Weedy, it feels like you go out of your way to disagree with me, it's obvious to me from most of your posts (and the fact that you wont friend me here, or facebook) that you dislike me, and I'm not sure why. You respond like I just attacked you, and that is not my intention, I'm trying to have a dialog with my peers.
People I respect.

I'm not the greatest communicator in text.


I guess as I get older I try to error on the side of caution.


I'm just tryin' to get the mix right.
To make it as good as it can be. (IMO)
Serve the song, not serve myself with masturbatory licks, or volume, or the more me syndrome.

I guess what I am horrible at explaining (as you can tell :) )

is that the dynamics are missing with most of the heavy hitters I've encountered.

I will also play loud (see I didn't use too).
just not all the time.

Respectfully
Richard

plughead
May 3rd, 2011, 08:58 PM
Don't worry Arch - you and I are of the same mentality so you're not alone.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with 'loud' - only problem is if 'loud' is the ONLY DYNAMIC in the musical equation. Getting there isn't a problem: staying there an entire night (IMO) is - unless, of course you don't care about your ears, or that style of performance.

I'll stick to no plugs and playing with guys that can keep a lid on it.

A personal preference, AND self-preservation...

weedywet
May 3rd, 2011, 09:00 PM
I don't dislike you, I don't KNOW you

but I dislike this crusade of yours, as I think it's misguided.

and it DOES feel like a crusade, not a dialogue

archtop
May 3rd, 2011, 09:51 PM
really?

a crusade?


you don't don't know me?

we have probably had more words exchanged that a lot of the people
I see all the time.

I've never met Otek but I would give up my bed to him and sleep on the couch in a heartbeat, it's up to the wife where she want's to sleep :)



So since I got budding guitar students to teach any minute, and drums to bash the fuck out of tonight, I must bow out for now, the only response that seems to feel right, right now, is one I really dislike.


Whatever :Roll eyes:

Johnny
May 3rd, 2011, 10:13 PM
I don't dislike you, I don't KNOW you

but I dislike this crusade of yours, as I think it's misguided.

and it DOES feel like a crusade, not a dialogue

Hey, now, leave the crusades to us crusaders. :lol:

weedywet
May 4th, 2011, 12:15 AM
really?

a crusade?


you don't don't know me?

we have probably had more words exchanged that a lot of the people
I see all the time.

I've never met Otek but I would give up my bed to him and sleep on the couch in a heartbeat, it's up to the wife where she want's to sleep :)



So since I got budding guitar students to teach any minute, and drums to bash the fuck out of tonight, I must bow out for now, the only response that seems to feel right, right now, is one I really dislike.


Whatever :Roll eyes:

Okay
sleep with Otek

I can handle the rejection

samc
May 4th, 2011, 01:08 AM
I'm just tryin' to get the mix right.
To make it as good as it can be. (IMO)
Serve the song, not serve myself with masturbatory licks, or volume, or the more me syndrome.
Sometimes playing hard and loud is what's needed for the song to sound and feel right. In other words there are times when playing softly is not an option.

otek
May 4th, 2011, 08:31 AM
I've never met Otek but I would give up my bed to him and sleep on the couch in a heartbeat, it's up to the wife where she want's to sleep :)

Remind me to take the Pacific Northwest off my "future travel" map. :D

On a serious note, I think I have to side with Weedy on this one. The vast majority of GOOD drummers I've worked with are more or less pretty loud - naturally depending on where you are standing in relationship to the drum kit. They also tend to be very dynamically consistent, which has much more to do with the perception of loud than one might think. A drummer who plays with great dynamic consistency are often perceived as LESS loud to me, because he presents a balanced "mix" of the kit.

I also think it happens to be the nature of the instrument as such. Even a minute amount of force applied to a snare hit will produce a very loud sound.

It is a question of tone, among other things. If you play a kick drum hard and record it that way, it has the perfect spectral balance to cut through in a dense rock or pop mix. The main reason why people tend to clownfuck drums today is because players are either dynamically erratic or play too soft for the sonic requirements of the occasion.

As for the "crusade" bit, I am not going to comment other than saying that out of the most recent 100 of your over 1,000 posts, about 25% were ostensibly about, or contained references to drummers being too loud.

It may not amount to a crusade, but perhaps a light onset of tourette's? :D


otek

Barish
May 4th, 2011, 10:10 AM
I'll marry you guys to each other no problem, both of you believe in God, right?

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/09/02/alg_vermont_gay_marriage.jpg

B.

fum
May 4th, 2011, 03:31 PM
It's all about the drummer face.

MKZ
May 4th, 2011, 05:31 PM
Larz?

Drummer face. We need a drummer face smiley.

daleandtheguitar
May 4th, 2011, 06:23 PM
Drummers hitting with authority is one thing. Any less is timid drumming, which is pretty much never a good thing. The membrane drums don't usually get to be TOO much to handle for me. I think "LOUD" is usually where cymbal abuse and nothing but 95%+ hits starts to rear their ugly heads. And for dynamic music, including pub rock, that is no good.

BUT...

I do think that there is music where this (self-described) "bad loud" is the norm, mainly because a lot of this stuff is more about showing the emotion of it than the musicality (again, my term - there may be better) of it. I don't tend to bop my head to this stuff, but there are plenty who do and it means more to them than anything I've ever put out there. It's not mine, but it's music... and I can't invalidate that.



D.

weedywet
May 4th, 2011, 06:39 PM
this isn't "musicality"?

then we have very different ideas about what is


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnVjpymrbIY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb1KsVj73vw&feature=fvst


both unquestionably loud guys

Johnny
May 4th, 2011, 08:00 PM
And Tony.

daleandtheguitar
May 4th, 2011, 08:56 PM
this isn't "musicality"?

then we have very different ideas about what is



If that was in response to my use of the term, then I think you missed me.

That is very much the "good loud" (opinionated terminology, remember), passionate and confident but also exhibiting restraint, dynamics, and articulation.


The stuff I'm refering to is music that is, for the most part, off the pop charts. But already I feel I'm doing way too much categorization. Same story as always, right? I see both sides and my personal preference leans me more one way then the other. For what it's worth, I wouldn't characterize any of these 7 auditioners as just "loud"... there are at least 50 more positive adjectives I could and would use first.


D.

archtop
May 4th, 2011, 09:45 PM
Buddy's use of dynamics = great

Keith = probably responsible for this cymbal bashing era :)

Love him , he was awesome, they where the WHO

but regular Joe's playing that hard, probably not gonna be so fun. (for me IMO)


bad is bad

good is good.

There is no one size fits all.

I guess I am on a crusade, or mission would be a better term, but whatever,

to make good music, AND be an open minded good human.

weedywet
May 4th, 2011, 10:18 PM
What if it turns out they are mutually exclusive?


I'd much rather see more Keith Moon wanna be's and fewer Roger Linn wanna be's

weedywet
May 4th, 2011, 10:19 PM
By the way can search for it but there's a mike portnoy YouTube clip as well talking about what an influence moon was on him

archtop
May 4th, 2011, 11:59 PM
Portnoy is not my cup of tea.

I don't get the Roger Linn reference unless you mean drum machine like, and if thats the case, I'm totally with ya.


I like space. I don't want to be pummeled, just because some cat thinks he's all that.

Space. The final frontier, that makes music and mixes better. :)

man I like them smiley's :) :)

Smileyblue
May 5th, 2011, 12:01 AM
Having heard that Portnoy left the band, I honestly didn't think I was going to get sucked into all this. I have never ever cared about a single note Dream Theater has ever played (and that goes double for Jordan Rudess, one of the most technically gifted keyboardists of our generation); they have always left me not just cold but suspended-animation cold.

That said, I watched this and immediately subscribed to their channel so as to catch the next episode. Yes, now I'm curious.

Why did that guy epoxy an S.O.S pad to his chin, though?

Not even when Derek Sheridan was playing Keyboards?

vocalnick
May 5th, 2011, 12:29 AM
Not even when Derek Sheridan was playing Keyboards?

Sherinian's (rather unceremonious) ditching corresponds pretty directly with the rapid waning of my interest in the band.

Lots of people seem to mark Falling into Infinity as a low point in their discography. I on the other hand think it's absolutely their zenith.

It's also the last album they worked with a producer. Everything since has been self-produced, and IMNPHO sounds like it.

Fulcrum, have a listen to a couple of track off FII if you haven't already - I find it much more palatable than anything they've coughed up onto the rug since then :)

Johnny
May 5th, 2011, 01:33 AM
Space is great except when it isn't.

vocalnick
May 5th, 2011, 02:14 AM
Space is great except when it isn't.

Sometimes there are Kingons. Or Reavers!

Tim Halligan
May 5th, 2011, 02:51 AM
Or Reavers!

We can deal with those.

:lol:


Cheers,
Tim

Fulcrum
May 5th, 2011, 04:46 AM
Not even when Derek Sheridan was playing Keyboards?

Not even when Sherinian was playing keyboards. The prog-metal thing has never really grabbed me.

It's peculiar, because metal itself never grabbed me, and I think it would have had to have done when I was still rather young and formulating opinions about music. Part of it was the largely puerile lyrics and the feigned machismo which to me bordered on camp.. but a lot of it was because most metal bands opted for a second or third guitarist instead of a keyboardist. The ironic thing is that when a metal band, and especially one with prog overtones, comes along that actually does feature keys—I find myself repelled. (Even more ironic is that I find myself enjoying Tool quite a lot.)

With repeated listening to some of Porcupine Tree's later stuff it may yet grab me, at which point I may revise my opinion of Dream Theater.


Fulcrum, have a listen to a couple of track off FII if you haven't already - I find it much more palatable than anything they've coughed up onto the rug since then :)

I'll just do that little ole thing Nick.

Johnny
May 5th, 2011, 05:34 AM
Yes, listen to Porcupine Tree. Listen to tons of Porcupine Tree. Just keep listening, and all will be well. Steven Wilson can do no wrong.


Johnny fave Gavin hits solid but he's not a basher. I LOVE his playing. His books have done a lot for me.

MKZ
May 5th, 2011, 05:35 AM
We can deal with those.

:lol:


Cheers,
Tim

LOL

vocalnick
May 5th, 2011, 05:56 AM
Yes, listen to Porcupine Tree. Listen to tons of Porcupine Tree. Just keep listening, and all will be well. Steven Wilson can do no wrong.


I thought that, but then I heard The Incident. Wow... Porcupine Tree have always teetered on the edge of the tonally-monotonous for me, but somehow managed to make it work amazingly well. Until The Incident. I just can't get through it without getting bored.

For my money, the peak was In Absentia, followed very closely by Deadwing, then FOABP.

For whatever my money's worth... :)


Johnny fave Gavin hits solid but he's not a basher. I LOVE his playing. His books have done a lot for me.

I love Gavin Harrison's work too. I recall there was some fan-wank about him perhaps defecting to Dream Theater, but I'm very glad it wasn't true. I think it would have been a huge loss for Porcupine Tree, and a pretty ordinary fit for DT.

Johnny
May 5th, 2011, 06:03 AM
Man, when they played The Incident live in its entirety, it really came alive for me.

Carlo
May 5th, 2011, 06:13 AM
I don't dislike you, I don't KNOW you


:Cry: Wow, weed...

samc
May 5th, 2011, 09:49 AM
Johnny fave Gavin hits solid but he's not a basher. I LOVE his playing. His books have done a lot for me.
Have all these prog metal drummers written books? What do they write about?

samc
May 5th, 2011, 09:55 AM
bad is bad

good is good.
This was all that needed to be said in the first place. Good drummers know how hard they need to play in a given situation...

Johnny
May 5th, 2011, 01:32 PM
Have all these prog metal drummers written books? What do they write about?

Gavin's books, "Rhythmic Illusions" and "Rhythmic Perspectives" mainly deal with things like beat displacement and metric modulation. Things you can do to trick the listener. Or get fired.

But working that stuff out makes one so aware of the time that it really helps your groove in anything.

He also has some great DVDs that accompany his books.

otek
May 5th, 2011, 02:13 PM
Have all these prog metal drummers written books? What do they write about?

Well, he probably doesn't count as metal exactly, but [Rush drummer] Neil Peart's book, Ghost Rider: Travels on the Healing Road, was written during his motorcycle travels in the US and Canada in the late nineties, following the death of his daughter and wife (both lost within the space of a year).

The book was a chronicle of his geographical and emotional journey during that time.


otek

Brendo
May 5th, 2011, 02:38 PM
The ironic thing is that when a metal band, and especially one with prog overtones, comes along that actually does feature keys—I find myself repelled. (Even more ironic is that I find myself enjoying Tool quite a lot.)Opeth?

Fulcrum
May 5th, 2011, 03:37 PM
Opeth?

One of these days.

Mick Stuart
May 5th, 2011, 04:12 PM
Yes, listen to Porcupine Tree. Listen to tons of Porcupine Tree. Just keep listening, and all will be well. Steven Wilson can do no wrong.


Johnny fave Gavin hits solid but he's not a basher. I LOVE his playing. His books have done a lot for me.


Man, when they played The Incident live in its entirety, it really came alive for me.

That was a kick ass show. Just stellar. I agree with Nick, the album was a bit boring at first and I thought the "all songs as one" seemed forced but live is where its at for that album.

Mars Volta is good at the all songs as one, for me, and has had their share of great drummers. Hard hitting drummers at that, just awesome.

And Gavin is da man!

Johnny
May 5th, 2011, 04:19 PM
http://www.moderndrummer.com/modern-drummer-blogs/Mike%20Mangini%20of%20Dream%20Theater/

Fulcrum
May 5th, 2011, 07:41 PM
Yes, listen to Porcupine Tree. Listen to tons of Porcupine Tree. Just keep listening, and all will be well. Steven Wilson can do no wrong.


Johnny fave Gavin hits solid but he's not a basher. I LOVE his playing. His books have done a lot for me.

Oh, Gavin's a freak. I liked his work with Stewart/Gaskin quite a lot.

I'm not as up on PT with Gavin as I am with PT with Maitland: coming to them as late as I did I started at the beginning and started working my way forward from there. I expect that once I'm done with the new record I'll have more time to listen. Same with Opeth and the DT album Nick suggested.

It occurs to me that Frost* had some metal overtones to them as well, and I absolutely loved that band. Andy Edwards is another freak on the kit.

otek
May 6th, 2011, 06:30 AM
It occurs to me that Frost* had some metal overtones to them as well, and I absolutely loved that band. Andy Edwards is another freak on the kit.

Perhaps it's not time to start using the past tense just yet. Rumor has it there is a third album in the making.

As for Andy Edwards (who is apparently no longer touring with Frost):

9DnNaT-1q_A


otek

Fulcrum
May 6th, 2011, 09:08 AM
Perhaps it's not time to start using the past tense just yet. Rumor has it there is a third album in the making.

Jem Godfrey mentions that his record company had an option on a third album, and that a lot of what he's writing these days is essentially "an antidote to Frost*". He's got an EP coming out tentatively titled Dogshit and Daisies, but I don't know whether that qualifies.

If not, I don't expect him to release this third album as Frost* and I don't expect it will necessarily be prog in nature, but then I (along with other countless rabid Frosties worldwide) didn't expect him to turf Frost* with extreme prejudice several months ago either.

He talked some about the idea of franchising the name, but as someone on the Frost* fora pointed out it kind of hamstrings things a bit as regards an eventual reunion.

otek
May 6th, 2011, 08:34 PM
but then I (along with other countless rabid Frosties worldwide) didn't expect him to turf Frost* with extreme prejudice several months ago either.

I wasn't aware of that.

No reason given?


otek

Fulcrum
May 6th, 2011, 09:06 PM
http://www.frost-music.co.uk/frosties/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2563


The reasons are many - I don’t feel comfortable any longer in the role of singer/front man/keyboard player/principle songwriter/principle cheque writer. Truth be told, I never have. It’s all got a bit out of hand from the gently self-mocking studio project I started for fun in a shed in East Sussex in May 2004 when I was young and happy and it was always sunny.

More than that though, trying to juggle two full time careers as I have over the last 7 years has been a tough ask and has ultimately become a price to high to pay in certain areas of my life. One of which is my health. I’ve been to a very dark place over the last 8 days and ended up in a pretty bad way. Although I’m now emerging out the other side (a stone lighter into the bargain), I have realised that I have some serious issues I must address. I’m no longer young, I’m no longer happy and the sun is no longer shining.

These issues have made me realise that life is sometimes about doing what you must do when the time comes regardless of what other people might want or expect of you. Some things are bigger than music or bands, expectation or disappointment. Figuratively speaking, I’ve now been given a yellow card and my priority now is to get myself back together before I get sent off for good.