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View Full Version : Seriously... does anyone here NOT wear a seatbelt?


Aardvark
May 31st, 2011, 05:45 AM
I ask after reading this article (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/28058523/detail.html) in which it reports of a two car collision that killed both drivers and neither one of them had a belt on.

This is mind-boggling to me.

As a bonus head-shaker the 16 year old driver who ran a red was texting at the time and all her sister talks about in the article is the loss of her sister who, we are told, is now in Heaven with her mother who passed six years ago.

No mention of apologising to the family of the woman she killed.


Not so sure why she would get to 'Heaven' having just carelessly killed a fellow human being due to gross negligence.:headpalm:

Don't text, stay off the fucking phone and buckle up. You never know when a Heaven bound 16 year old is running red lights while texting.



Cheers,
AndputtherightgasinthecarVArk



.

CloseToTheEdge
May 31st, 2011, 05:53 AM
I used to work with a guy who refused to wear them. He drove like an idiot too, with lots of road rage. I finally got to the point where I refused to ride in the same car with him.

I don't get it either.

G. Hoffman
May 31st, 2011, 07:22 AM
Ignore this next bit. Aardy's post reminded me of it, and I need to vent my spleen a bit.


I normally try to avoid talking about religion around here (other than my sig line), since I'm more than a little antagonistic towards it, and this doesn't really seem like the place, BUT, there was a thing a few years back where a guy was biking along the side of a road (on his way to work, as it happens) with a 6 foot shoulder, completely within the law and riding exactly where he was supposed to be (even the responding cop said so, and cops are seldom willing to admit a cyclist was doing things right). Some 19 year old frill who was too busy texting to pay attention to where she was going hit him - shattering her driver's side headlights!!!! - and killed him. She got off with barely a moving violation - never mind that this was the 4th or 5th time she had hit someone while texting, though she had not killed anyone before - which lead to a new law to cover distracted driving in Indiana (where this happened). She didn't even lose her fucking driving license - not for one day. The thing that really pissed a lot of people off was this ......frill....... posted on her MySpace page that she felt bad about killing the guy, but she would be OK because she knew God would forgive her.

NOW, first of all; God has no right to forgive the bit....err, frill. God is not the one she killed. She killed the only person who could forgive her. So fuck her, and fuck her God. IF he is forgiving her, he needs to mind his own fucking business, or at least tell her to pay some fucking attention when she is controlling a deadly weapon!!!!!



But to answer the question, yes, on those occasions I am in a car, I wear a seat belt. It feels like I'm about to fall out of the car if I don't. I get a bit claustrophobic in a car, though, so I try to avoid it when I can.


Gabriel

Wide-O
May 31st, 2011, 08:01 AM
I don't think I have ever driven one meter without one.

In my previous car, I had a 5 point harness. Now THAT is fun. First time I used it, I couldn't even reach out to close the door. :grin:

MacGregor
May 31st, 2011, 08:52 AM
I don't think I have ever driven one meter without one.

In my previous car, I had a 5 point harness. Now THAT is fun. First time I used it, I couldn't even reach out to close the door. :grin:

Yep, same here. I guess Mr. Darwin takes care of this.

Those texting morons are a different issue, because they are dangerous for US. It's NOT fun to see a SUV driving on YOUR side of the street, but not in the same direction :headpalm:

Kill those fuckers!

Mac
.

Goes211
May 31st, 2011, 12:15 PM
The über-worrisome thing about texting while driving is that it has not become yet another activity performed when your attention should be focused on the road alone, noooo...
it has become an additional one :
Now you can fix your make up and text (while driving) or have a smoke and text (while driving).
Then there are those who don't wear the seat-belt and don't make their kids wear them. You're driving behind someone and you see the kids roaming freely around the car, climbing on the seats, etc... if Dad needs to brake (even lightly), the little angel is going for a flight test against the wind shield, even at stupidly low speeds.

I also like "The speed limit is for others, I drive safely at 180 km/h". Or "I have better brakes, it's OK for me to drive 3 feet behind you even though we are doing 120 km/h". Or "Sure those two lanes are merging into one and the signs telling me so started 2 miles ago, but I think I'll pass everyone and squeeze my big ole selfish ass in the other lane at the last possible moment."
Or... I could go on all day. I always tell people that if they behaved at a party like they behave on the road they would get kicked out in a heartbeat.

plughead
May 31st, 2011, 12:59 PM
Well, I don't wear a seat belt ALL the time, but then again, I don't talk on the phone or text when I'm driving.

IMO, it's a personal choice: if you choose not to wear a seatbelt you bear the consequences.

However, not being totally focused on the road has a much more serious impact on your health...

Tim Halligan
May 31st, 2011, 01:07 PM
We have rules in our country.

Wear them.

Or else.

Cheers,
Tim

DPower
May 31st, 2011, 01:52 PM
IMO, it's a personal choice: if you choose not to wear a seatbelt you bear the consequences.

Unfortunately, this attitude ignores the broader and very real consequences. While you personally may bear the physical consequences of not wearing your seatbelt, the financial costs in terms of lost productivity, additional medical resources required, all the way down to paying the guy to wash your blood off the pavement, get borne by the rest of society.

This is why it is not optional. The rest of us don't want to pay for "your" (not saying you personally) stupidity.

qharley
May 31st, 2011, 02:17 PM
My wife sent me once to pick up a couple of kids she tutors from their drama classes...

They got in, and we waited. When they finally asked me why we are waiting, they got the speech.

My hand does not turn the ignition before everyone is buckled up.
You only have one life - hold on to it while you can.

And I still see kids bouncing around loose on back seats, or in the back window [THE HORROR]

:otek:

dwoz
May 31st, 2011, 02:58 PM
I seem to recall a statistic from about 20 years ago that the most deaths in car accidents were from people ejected from the car or slammed into the windshield/dashboard.

I don't know what the stat is now. Improved, i'm sure.

Johnny
May 31st, 2011, 03:04 PM
Not wearing a belt is foolish even at slower speeds.

MacGregor
May 31st, 2011, 03:20 PM
I seem to recall a statistic from about 20 years ago that the most deaths in car accidents were from people ejected from the car or slammed into the windshield/dashboard.

I don't know what the stat is now. Improved, i'm sure.

I know some who survived the windscreen contact. All need some make-up to look somehow decent, one has an odd number of eyes now.

Mac
.

overeasy
May 31st, 2011, 03:21 PM
Is this going to deteriorate into a road rage thread? Cause I'm !#$&*ing ready!!!!

I'm a fairly mellow dude 90% of the time.

But behind the wheel, my patience is tested every day - and that 10% is ugly. I've found myself wishing pulmonary embolisms on strangers and their entire families. Because they drive with NO sense of the risks they take, or the already dangerous conditions that their stupidity exacerbates.

Dad always told me: "try to keep a football field's length between you and the car in front (and in back)." Reaction time, yadda yadda. For an angry Irish boozehound, ol' Pop was a pretty cautious driver.

Dad also told me to watch out for "broads in red cars." :)

plughead
May 31st, 2011, 04:00 PM
Unfortunately, this attitude ignores the broader and very real consequences. While you personally may bear the physical consequences of not wearing your seatbelt, the financial costs in terms of lost productivity, additional medical resources required, all the way down to paying the guy to wash your blood off the pavement, get borne by the rest of society.
.

I guess you could say I'm potentially keeping 'the economy' afloat - at least in a potential accident...:Wink:

I wear my belt ALMOST all the time, tho a few times not. Been caught too many times in the young and reckless years, and that ethos still resonates sometimes, tho - with 3 young boys who are ALWAYS buckled in, they don't let me leave without making me do it up (NTM the wife rules with an iron fist)...

jerryskid
May 31st, 2011, 04:35 PM
I always wear a seatbelt....even at home in the easy chair....:Wink:

Wide-O
May 31st, 2011, 05:01 PM
I wear my belt ALMOST all the time, tho a few times not.

Question: why do you sometimes not? And no, I'm not trying to be Holier Than Thou etc.

FWIW, I drive a car that most people would kill themselves in in the first 15 minutes. (and that's the folks who actually know how to work a stick shift).

What's the downside?

I honestly don't get it.

Tim Halligan
May 31st, 2011, 05:06 PM
I always wear a seatbelt....even at home in the easy chair....:Wink:

Yeah...but for you that's the most dangerous place!


:beer:


:lol:



Cheers,
Tim

Dr. Bob
May 31st, 2011, 05:28 PM
Not to PREACH... but to preach...

A mate of mine was a fairly successful semi-pro driver on the southern SCCA circuit. When a friend of ours was bitchin' about the newly implemented mandatory seatbelt laws, he put it like this;

"Have you EVER seen a drag race, formula class, NASCAR or even a fukin' demolition derby where the drivers DIDN'T have a seatbelt on? and do you REALLY think if they had an option that they wouldn't?"

At one point I was occasionally lazy about putting one on, but when I started working in field service, the company policy was pretty simple. If you had ANY type of incident in their company vehicle, they would ONLY cover you if your seatbelt was on. If it wasn't... you were personally responsible... and fired... period.

I will bitch that while standard/stock seatbelts are usually good, they do have a fairly significant rate of failure due to the efforts of some auto manufacturers trying to keep the costs down... though thankfully, that number has gotten smaller.

sqkychair
May 31st, 2011, 05:42 PM
One time I passed a wreck here in Houston.

It was raining pretty steadily.

The only vehicle involved was a van. It apparently had spun a couple of times. It did not hit anything because it had no damage. The drivers door was open.

The driver was laying in the rain on the road. His buddy, the passenger, was not bothering to cover him up. Blood was coming from the back of his head.

This guy died by getting thrown out of the vehicle.

I use my seat belt EVERY TIME I drive and all passengers must do it too.

We made it part of the kid's routine whenever we got in the car so it would be second nature to them.

Wide-O
May 31st, 2011, 06:29 PM
one has an odd number of eyes now.


Well, three eyes does kinda sound cool </House MD>

I can understand people owning guns, I just can not understand people not wearing a seatbelt.

And sure Dr. Bob, way of the world, some manufacturers will try to save a few beans. But ... nah, most belts work quite well these days.

cozmicslop
May 31st, 2011, 07:17 PM
The driver of this car had no insurance and no one in her car was wearing a safety belt when she started a three car accident totalling two cars and causing $3k damage to mine.

Not only was the fucking idiot chatting away on her cell, the car had a child restraint seat but her 2 year old child wasn't in it. She was lucky the baby didn't fly through the windshield.

Though it doesn't look like it, everyone walked away unhurt.

and yes, I was wearing a seatbelt.

Goes211
May 31st, 2011, 07:49 PM
I can understand people owning guns

Hold it right there cowboy. No you don't.

dwoz
May 31st, 2011, 08:14 PM
The analogy to guns is, "imagine loaning your pistol out to a friend, who loans it to a friend, who in turn loans it to someone else. A few weeks later, it comes back to you. Immediately without evaluating it, you point it at your head and pull the trigger, because 'nobody leaves a gun loaded.'"

That's basically what driving without a seatbelt is. You can control what you do to a great extent, but not what the other guy does. You can only hope he follows the laws of driving and physics.

dwoz
May 31st, 2011, 08:17 PM
And of course in the middle of the seatbelt discussion, we are missing the complete lack of empathy or even mention of the poor woman that the texting girl brought with her to "heaven," on the part of the family of the texting girl.

G. Hoffman
May 31st, 2011, 08:17 PM
We made it part of the kid's routine whenever we got in the car so it would be second nature to them.



That's the real thing for me, at this point. By the time I got my license, it had been 10 years since I had started having preached to me on TV and whatnot. It was already so second nature, that I just can't get into a car without buckling up. I can't. I don't think about it. I don't plan it. I just get in, buckle up, and THEN start thinking about starting the car. It's become a back brain, autonomic kind of thing - almost like breathing.


Gabriel

Tim Armstrong
May 31st, 2011, 08:36 PM
I'm a professional bus driver (though I'm sure hoping I can become a FORMER professional bus driver soon!), and the sheer amount of idiotic behavior I see on the road every time I'm behind the wheel is pretty staggering. When you consider just how many folks are talking on cell phones, texting, speeding, weaving in and out of traffic, or just plain don't seem to have ANY situational awareness at all, putting on a seat belt seems like a no-brainer.

Oh.

I do want to take a minor detour here to address this point:

Or "Sure those two lanes are merging into one and the signs telling me so started 2 miles ago, but I think I'll pass everyone and squeeze my big ole selfish ass in the other lane at the last possible moment."

The correct place (as well as the legal place) to merge is actually anywhere up to the merge point. Both lanes are open up to that point, and it makes no sense to not use them. In fact, if everyone moves over two miles back, you'll have a longer traffic jam, as you'll have twice as many cars in one lane. Merge doesn't mean "if you're nice, we'll let you in", it means "two lanes become one, alternate vehicles".

Cheers, Tim

Tyrus
May 31st, 2011, 08:38 PM
I'm guilty of not always IMMEDIATELY putting my seatbelt on...my car is smart enough to start beeping at me the whole time. It makes a good point. I wear it once i'm on the road.

Kids age 16-19 are a liability by default with their inexperience and dumbassedness behind the wheel. But add texting to it and we're fucked.

I don't get it, i can't text and drive because I see the amount of focus it takes away from me, kids don't have that kind of insight to figure it out, thats what scares me.

Goes211
May 31st, 2011, 08:48 PM
I do want to take a minor detour here to address this point:



The correct place (as well as the legal place) to merge is actually anywhere up to the merge point. Both lanes are open up to that point, and it makes no sense to not use them. In fact, if everyone moves over two miles back, you'll have a longer traffic jam, as you'll have twice as many cars in one lane. Merge doesn't mean "if you're nice, we'll let you in", it means "two lanes become one, alternate vehicles".

Cheers, Tim

That makes complete sense Tim, but "alternate vehicles" doesn't mean waiting until the last 10 yards after 2 miles to force your way in. And it's usually the same guy who thinks it's normal behaviour to cut the lane in front of you at the store, the museum, the concert or any other function where humans are supposed to behave like humans instead of cavemen.

T.Bay
May 31st, 2011, 08:56 PM
This off-duty cop wasn't wearing one...

Apparently the cops tend not to, for some reason.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20100118/NEWS/1185035?p=2&tc=pg

Smileyblue
May 31st, 2011, 09:07 PM
In Australia the penalties for not wearing a seat belt are extremely harsh.

The states differ slightly but for an unrestrained driver in Western Australia it is $500.00 fine + 4 demerit points (there are 12 on a clean license and you lose them as you get infractions, once there is none left they take your license away) and $100 for each unrestrained Adult/Child Passenger (up to $900) and for a Restrained Driver with an Unrestrained passenger, it is $500.00 + 4 Demerit points and $100.00 for each unrestrained Adult/Child Passenger (up to $800). These are doubled on public holidays. In Victoria the fines are $170.00 on the spot fine + 3 demerits for each unrestrained passenger, so theoretically you could lose your license right then and there if you have too many people unrestrained in the car.

I don't get it either Aardy.

PRobb
May 31st, 2011, 09:44 PM
As a bonus head-shaker the 16 year old driver who ran a red was texting at the time and all her sister talks about in the article is the loss of her sister who, we are told, is now in Heaven with her mother who passed six years ago.


That's bigger than seatbelts. If you're stupid enough to not wear a belt, you might kill yourself. If you're stupid enough to text while driving, you might kill ME!

Driving while texting is just as bad as driving drunk and should be punished just as harshly. If the cops pull you over for a moving violation, they should be allowed to examine your phone. If you were texting it's a separate violation with a separate fine and extra points on your license.

Here's an idea for a law- when driving a car, LOOK AT THE FUCKING ROAD!

Keks
May 31st, 2011, 09:45 PM
The über-worrisome thing about texting while driving is that it has not become yet another activity performed when your attention should be focused on the road alone, noooo...

Last week I had a range rover driver taking my right of way while texting, in town.
If I had not been really cautious at that crossroads, and braked like a berserk I would have had 3 tons of steel crashing in my drivers door, at seat height.
I don't approve of wearing guns,
but I would have loved to use one on this fucker.

All the best,
the keks

eagan
May 31st, 2011, 09:53 PM
A body at rest tends to remain at rest. A body in motion tends to remain in motion.

Funny how that works. No, check that, because it's often not funny at all.

It's right there all the time, and inertia doesn't care about what you think about it.

I see a comment about a kid not in a child seat restraint and being lucky not to go through the windshield. Never mind going through a windshield or not. There's a lot more in the list of possibilities than that. If you don't go through the windshield it's not like you're alright.

To modify an old gem... it's not the speed that gets you, it's the sudden stop... except that isn't it exactly either. It's the sudden stop (or deceleration at least) of the car combined with: the mass of your body NOT stopping, temporarily. Then, how it DOES stop comes into play.

You'll find some things if you have a conversation with anybody like the good doctor's club racing buddy. Part of what you'll hear is this. Properly supportive seats and full harness systems are about much more than helping you if you hit something. It's about keeping your ass firmly in place throughout the exercise.

Check out the scene of getting set to go in any high speed motorsports and you will find something. A driver not just strapping in, but they, and probably with a helper reaching in to get a better leverage, will be doing damned near all they can to get those belts just absolutely as tight as they can.

That isn't just about crash safety (although it is about that). It's about being physically situated as well as possible to have better control of the car.

We've got the story of some poor guy who apparently died when he spun his van in the rain and didn't even hit anything; he died falling out of the fucking thing.

God only knows how many crashes have happened with a large contributing factor being that somebody found themselves in a sudden surprising bad situation and lost pretty much any hope of holding or regaining control of the car because their body was trying to fly around, and their hands and arms and feet and legs were trying to hold them in place, instead of controlling the car's controls. This can't be overstated.

I have actually found people with an idea in their heads that they're not worried about belts, because "the car has airbags". This is too stupid for comment. If that requires explanation for somebody, they're likely too stupid to understand the explanation.

The "in heaven with mommy" quote in the article is bad enough. Is there any empathy for the poor soul who was killed by her dipshit sister? The "good driver" comment makes my jaw drop. If somebody is driving, unrestrained in the seat poking at an electronic gizmo, blows through a stop sign oblivious to the sign, and slams into another car and kills somebody, by what idiotic criteria are they regarded as "a good driver"?


JLE

dwoz
May 31st, 2011, 10:02 PM
"good driver"


translation:


"lucky so far."

nobby
May 31st, 2011, 10:22 PM
As far as being a good driver, you couldn't even say with any accuracy that she died trying.

If there's one good thing that comes from this tragedy, it's that maybe, maybe some young people will get the message that texting while driving isn't that much safer than performing an appendectomy on yourself while driving, it just seems that way.

The reason I say 'young people' is because generally speaking people either don't reach middle age when they're that dumb or they wise up. And I'm not singling out a particular generation.

Don't get me started on the litany of poor and or belligerent driving practices I see on a regular basis. What can you expect when you put 3 million people on an island 15 x 115 miles and give most of them licenses whether they should have them or not.

So there are a lot of accidents including the occasional national headlines making catastrophe.

Anyway, one of my parents' earlier vehicles came with lap belts in the front but none in the back. My mother took it to a service station, had belts installed in the back, and insisted that we wear them

MacGregor
May 31st, 2011, 10:44 PM
maybe some young people will get the message that texting while driving isn't that much safer

Only if they get that message on their phone.

Mac
.

eagan
May 31st, 2011, 10:56 PM
I left this out before because I knew it was turning into an essay even if I tried hard to keep it trim.

But totally related to this ugly tragedy is a really fundamental thing that, from my observations, is something that seems to be a common American characteristic.

In shortest form: a prevalent, dominant attitude that a motor vehicle is some form of rolling mobile lounge, and driving it is little more than a casual navigation exercise with an idea that everything will just sort of take care of itself.

This isn't helped any by the fucking pathetic, completely ridiculous state of what's typical "driver education" in this country. This might sound seriously exaggerated, hyperbolic, but if I had to try to put a number on a guess, I would dare to say that over 95% of people holding driving licenses and driving on public roads in the United States never actually learn how to drive.

I'm not kidding.

What they mostly learn is the surrounding peripheral stuff; signals and signs, rules of right of way and other rules of the road (and I think a large portion of people forget much of that stuff once they get their "license for life"), use of signals (see previous), how to park.

That's pretty much it.

It's very, very, VERY RARE in this country for a young new novice driver to learn, not just that secondary stuff I just ran through, but the primary, essential, basic, fundamental stuff of HOW TO CONTROL AN AUTOMOBILE.


JLE

blackieC
June 1st, 2011, 04:35 AM
When I began driving in my late teens, it was mostly with my Mother. After a short while she became comfortable with me driving whenever we went anywhere. One day as we got into the car, we both strapped in and there was a pause. My Mom turned to to me and told me how proud she was that the first thing I did when I got in the car was put on a seatbelt. She was damn near teary eyed and that moment stuck with me. It wasn't until later that I realized that my parents had come up driving cars with steel dashboards in which belts were an option reserved for "pussies". It took me a couple of years to convert my Father. The occasion was picking up his first pair of trifocals. I got into the passenger seat and we headed out onto the streets of Tucson. We made it maybe five or six blocks before I said quite forcefully,"Pull over Dammit, I'm driving!" He responded with a look that was equal parts shock and indignation, but pulled over anyway. We switched seats and as he sat down in the passenger seat I said,"Buckle UP Dad, I"M driving!" I am still not sure whether he considered it a threat or the sudden realization that other peoples kids were running loose on the streets, but I never saw him in a car again without a seatbelt on.

Aardvark
June 1st, 2011, 05:17 AM
Drove from San Fran to just shy of Seattle today... rain, lots of rain in the mountain passes and several a-holes who were trying to kill me while talking on their phones going through these 5 and 6 degree roller coasters.

I lost track of the number of people driving like there were no consequences for being an idiot behind the wheel.


Wine time.:beer:



Cheers,
Aardvark


.

Rikharthu
June 1st, 2011, 06:11 AM
All of my teenage friends (being a teenager myself) have the notion that they're somehow the exception to the rule. "I know what I'm doing, *I'M* a good driver".

How much people flat out ignore what's obvious disturbs me. It's arrogance, it's ignorance. Tell them something knowledgable and helpful, they say "yeah whatever" and keep doing the same thing...all the while smugly thinking that they're in control. It's probably a product of modern parenting and schooling, you know, always telling the kids that they did good when in fact that model-of-the-Earth art project they've been working on looks more like the deteriorating head of Henry Kissinger.

"shit, Bobby, I'm failing you for that hunk of trash" <- there we go

This generation thinks that they can do no wrong. Only everybody else can.

And oh yeah, I'm a bicyclist. Sure, sure, cars can be sexy and fun but how many people die on the road each year? I can live without the ego boost. I don't need a multi-thousand-pound mass of metal and fiberglass to move my human body.

But now I'm considering taking the bus to work so I don't have to deal with the asshats who aren't paying attention...especially after the above story with the texting Jesus freak.


Sadly, though, the way cities are built these days makes people feel like they need cars. Zoning laws keep workplaces far away from homes...and the distance between looks awful ugly when you're not in your happy moving bubble with music and coffee and your phone.

TubaSolo
June 1st, 2011, 07:03 AM
I still have a white t-shirt with a diagonal black band made to look like a belt, from back in the day when it became mandatory.

Bought it in Italy. :Wink:

otek
June 1st, 2011, 11:50 AM
I still have a white t-shirt with a diagonal black band made to look like a belt, from back in the day when it became mandatory.

I'm sure the coroner will find it amusing.

:lol: or :icon_eek:


humOurnoirTek

Dr. Bob
June 1st, 2011, 12:50 PM
I don't mind the idiot not wearing their seatbelt becoming a Darwin Award recipient... not at all. It's the fact that these morons potentially take out others who don't need to earn the Associate Darwin Award.

Wide-O
June 1st, 2011, 12:59 PM
Hold it right there cowboy. No you don't.

OK, I don't. :grin: It was a bad analogy anyway.


That isn't just about crash safety (although it is about that). It's about being physically situated as well as possible to have better control of the car.


Indeed. As a has-been amateur racer, those harnesses really "make you one with the car". The first time you get strapped in, you feel you are going to choke.


But totally related to this ugly tragedy is a really fundamental thing that, from my observations, is something that seems to be a common American characteristic.


I'm afraid it's not just American. Over here you spend more time learning to park your car than on smart driving.

Everyone obviously thinks they are Schumacher, but one of the most humbling experiences I ever had was a) doing a skid course and b) driving on track.

Guess what: I wasn't Schumacher. Not even close. So then I really started to learn how that 1.2 tonnes of metal behaves in various conditions. I honestly don't understand that it isn't mandatory for young drivers to at least do such a course once. Heck, many insurance companies give you a bonus if you do. Plus, it's fun!

As for texting... that's beyond words. I don't even like to receive calls with my hands-free set. How can you read the situation around you and talk about dinner or sales targets at the same time?

Edit: I got curious, and looked up stats for Belgium. Guess what: only 61.5% of all drivers buckle up. That's amazing.

Fulcrum
June 1st, 2011, 04:31 PM
the deteriorating head of Henry Kissinger

Not many people your age remember who he was. Propers.

But now I'm considering taking the bus to work so I don't have to deal with the asshats who aren't paying attention...especially after the above story with the texting Jesus freak.


Sadly, though, the way cities are built these days makes people feel like they need cars. Zoning laws keep workplaces far away from homes...and the distance between looks awful ugly when you're not in your happy moving bubble with music and coffee and your phone.

Because people don't want big ol' exhaust-belching noise-making buses rolling through their nice, quiet neighborhoods, especially as they perceive that buses are for lower-class folk who can't afford cars. Part of the American Dream is the perception that we all need our own house on our own property and our own car to get us to and fro.. and when the reality of something like petrol at $4.30 a gallon steps in to rain on that little daydream, we whine and wonder what someone is doing to fix it.

Sprawl has been an issue for a while, not just in the US but in the rest of the developed world. Being a lapdog for the automotive industry in general and GM in particular, Robert Moses had a great big hand in swaying public perception that having your own car and not relying on the oppressive time schedules of public transport meant more freedom for the middle class—and hey, America is all about freedom, right?

I don't think he foresaw that the roads being built then were not going to be indefinitely capable of handling the kind of motorized traffic load we're seeing today on the nation's highways—or the major headache it would be to fix them when these roads eventually did become incapable. He certainly didn't foresee people like the teenager in question here, and other societal forces at work that (a) have stripped us of our collective empathy (that's a discussion for another day) and (b) make people think they're above the law and can behave any old way they want to on the roads.

For my part, I currently don't have a wireless headset or a car radio with Bluetooth, so when I get a text message or a phone call while driving, I ignore it until I can get to a highway rest area. The call can roll to my voice mail and the text message will still be waiting when I pull over. Easy and peasy.

sqkychair
June 1st, 2011, 04:33 PM
I'm sure the coroner will find it amusing.

:lol: or :icon_eek:


humOurnoirTek

I really did just hurt myself laughing because I had hot coffee in my mouth.

What are the odds that I will read something like that at the precise moment I take a sip.

dwoz
June 1st, 2011, 04:51 PM
Full Disclosure: I'm reading this thread on my blackberry via rss feed, between exits 4 and 5 on US Route 101, and it made me laugh and snort hot coffee through my nose, so I slowed down to 65mph to type this reply.

fum
June 1st, 2011, 05:11 PM
Drove from San Fran to just shy of Seattle today... rain, lots of rain in the mountain passes and several a-holes who were trying to kill me while talking on their phones going through these 5 and 6 degree roller coasters.



Welcome to my world. People in the Seattle area turn to instant idiots as soon as it rains (so basically, 90% of the time :grin: ).

It's a battle of extremes. One end starts driving like the blind, senile, can't see over the steering wheel old ladies

The other end is the "I've got a jacked up 4X4 with the biggest tires I can buy, and I'm gonna drive 90 mph whether I'm hydroplaning or not"

Welcome to the Pacific Northwest ya lucky bastard :vuvu:

Oh, and I grew up in a no seatbelt laws state, round about the time I started driving, they made a law (at which point I started wearing a seatbelt), and within a year or two, you totally get that "whoah" feeling without a seatbelt on in the car.

Regards

Jon

Goes211
June 1st, 2011, 07:04 PM
one of the most humbling experiences I ever had was a) doing a skid course and b) driving on track.

Guess what: I wasn't Schumacher. Not even close. So then I really started to learn how that 1.2 tonnes of metal behaves in various conditions. I honestly don't understand that it isn't mandatory for young drivers to at least do such a course once. Heck, many insurance companies give you a bonus if you do. Plus, it's fun!

Oh so true.
you only need to experience the power of inertia once to understand what happens when your car goes in a spin.

I took a course like that on the track of Spa-Francorchamps and got a real lesson in control from the guy assisting me.
Best 2 hour driving lesson ever.

qharley
June 2nd, 2011, 04:26 PM
I don't think about it. I don't plan it. I just get in, buckle up, and THEN start thinking about starting the car. It's become a back brain, autonomic kind of thing - almost like breathing.

At one time I was also one of those that would "forget" to wear the belt...

Anyway, I bought a car that would SCREAM at me for not wearing it. No I don't mean the polite beep that gets louder over time kind. When I turned the key without my belt on it would hit me with 90dB 1kHz.

You learn to do the belt first very quickly...

Wide-O
June 2nd, 2011, 05:46 PM
I took a course like that on the track of Spa-Francorchamps and got a real lesson in control from the guy assisting me.
Best 2 hour driving lesson ever.

Without looking it up, that must have been an EPMA course <looks up>. OK, I was right (http://www.automobielbeheersing.com/UK/centres.html).

Right? :Coolio:

One of my ex-friends (we fell out, it happens) was able to do a controlled power slide for 2 hours and 11 minutes, on the (ultra secret) MIRA prooving grounds. And no, you don't have to believe me (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/search/Details/Longest-horizontal-power-slide/56955.htm).

He did teach me a few things about driving though. And oddly enough, he wears a seat belt...

PRobb
June 2nd, 2011, 05:53 PM
Without looking it up, that must have been an EPMA course <looks up>. OK, it was right (http://www.automobielbeheersing.com/UK/centres.html).

Right? :Coolio:

One of my ex-friends (we fell out, it happens) was able to do a controlled power slide for 2 hours and 11 minutes, on the (ultra secret) MIRA prooving grounds. And no, you don't have to believe me (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/search/Details/Longest-horizontal-power-slide/56955.htm).

He did teach me a few things about driving though. And oddly enough, he wears a seat belt...
He slid for 2 hours?
On what tires?????????:icon_eek:

Wide-O
June 2nd, 2011, 06:48 PM
He slid for 2 hours?
On what tires?????????:icon_eek:

Ehm... I know the answer, but I would have to look it up to be sure. Mind you, the "track" was constantly sprayed with water, so tires never were the issue. On that part of MIRA, the surface is pretty much like "snow".

FWIW, I think they were Toyos

http://tvd.telenet.be/images/sdb_wr.jpg

And yeah, back then my internet name was Evil Bevel. Ask Aardy. :grin:

PS: he stalled because the fuel tank was empty.

PRobb
June 2nd, 2011, 06:57 PM
Mind you, the "track" was constantly sprayed with water, so tires never were the issue. On that part of MIRA, the surface is pretty much like "snow".


Aaah- that makes it a bit more comprehensible.

Wide-O
June 2nd, 2011, 07:06 PM
FWIW, I think they were Toyos


And to complete my post... his biggest enemy was being bored. I sat beside him, so did my wife, and, well you have this level of excellence that is hard to beat. Be it music or car handling. (Simon was not bad at playing the axe...)

These days, you have to be Block to beat that. But imagine... 133 minutes of total concentration (and for those who know, power sliding a 4WD is much harder than a RWD). It's silly, but I also think it won't be broken in the next 3 decades.

MacGregor
June 2nd, 2011, 08:32 PM
These days, you have to be Block to beat that. But imagine... 133 minutes of total concentration (and for those who know, power sliding a 4WD is much harder than a RWD). It's silly, but I also think it won't be broken in the next 3 decades.

Yep. I've seen a video of that (can't find the link, sorry), and if I remember correctly during the first attempt after 2 hours or so the transmission broke, so he had to do a second attempt at the same day.
I don't think that record will stay for 3 decades, but it won't be easy to do better.

Mac
.

Smileyblue
June 3rd, 2011, 12:17 AM
I would like to know where in the drivers handbook it says:

1. Follow the car in front of you with about 1/4 of a car length in between

2. When you see a red light ahead, speed up to close the gap of the stationary vehicle in front of you and slam on the brakes at the last second.

3. and "Floor it" between each red light even if they are only 1 intersection apart....

This is apparently considered to be a "Good Driver"

oh and I almost forgot...

4. When driving on a Freeway or Highway, drive as fast as humanly possible and use this other cars on the road to display your amazing weaving skills.

ivmike
June 3rd, 2011, 04:02 PM
A friend of mine frequently takes off his seat belt as soon as we enter the town of Kahnawake (a Mohawk Indian Reserve) just off the island of Montreal. His "sound" reasoning? "They don't care about stuff like this here". :headpalm:

For what it's worth, my car has feature built into the security system that will actual stall the car if I (as the driver) remove my seatbelt during the course of driving it. Also, if I don't have my seatbelt on when starting the car, it won't turn over.

Fulcrum
June 3rd, 2011, 05:18 PM
The drivers I particularly love are the ones who:


See me coming down the road, usually at the speed limit or maybe 5 mph over, and wait until the last possible second to pull out in front of me;
Consequently do five to ten mph under the speed limit thereafter;
Speed up when the broken yellow line passing zone comes along so that I can't pass them without risk of playing chicken with oncoming traffic;
Then finally speed up and run a red light while stranding me at it. (Middle finger optional.)


I seem to attract them like mosquitoes.

samc
June 3rd, 2011, 05:46 PM
For what it's worth, my car has feature built into the security system that will actual stall the car if I (as the driver) remove my seatbelt during the course of driving it.
This must have been an after market installation, I can't imagine any car maker installing such a system in any of their cars.

This is extremely dangerous for other road users and is a bad accident waiting to happen. Security systems that stall the vehicle are illegal in every developed country I can think of. Not even armored cars in the US can have such a system installed in them.

samc
June 3rd, 2011, 06:59 PM
Every bad driving practice you guys have described here is very present on French roads....but with some interesting twists.

Most french drivers know without doubt that they are technically better drivers than both Sebastien Loeb and Michael Schumacher and set out to prove it every time they get in a car. sending Text messages while driving just a few centimeters behind someone else at 130 km/h on the highway is child's play. There are also numerous dumb-ass motorbike and scooter riders who behave as if hey are not the ones who will end up dead or in the hospital when they collide with a car or truck...a lot of them die on the roads here.

Another thing is that once you get your drivers permit here, you pretty much have it for life, however long that life might be and without any type of control on older drivers. It is therefore common to see very old people (well past their prime) driving the biggest, most powerful vehicles they can afford on the road. This decision is based solely on money, older, retired drivers generally have more disposable income to buy cars and fuel, and more time on their hands to drive around on the highways which they also have to pay for.

And then there are the are the dumb road rules and practices...some of the dumbest I have ever seen in fact; changing the priority in the middle of a roundabout and the very vague right priority rule come to mind immediately.

ivmike
June 3rd, 2011, 10:37 PM
This must have been an after market installation, I can't imagine any car maker installing such a system in any of their cars.

This is extremely dangerous for other road users and is a bad accident waiting to happen. Security systems that stall the vehicle are illegal in every developed country I can think of. Not even armored cars in the US can have such a system installed in them.

It was likely aftermarket as I bought the car used.

It's only dangerous if I'm stupid enough to remove my seatbelt whilst driving, in which case, I deserve any nasty shit that happens to me.

Smileyblue
June 4th, 2011, 12:05 AM
The drivers I particularly love are the ones who:


See me coming down the road, usually at the speed limit or maybe 5 mph over, and wait until the last possible second to pull out in front of me;
Consequently do five to ten mph under the speed limit thereafter;
Speed up when the broken yellow line passing zone comes along so that I can't pass them without risk of playing chicken with oncoming traffic;
Then finally speed up and run a red light while stranding me at it. (Middle finger optional.)


I seem to attract them like mosquitoes.

In my neighborhood (and I'm just gonna come out and say it because I really don't care. IT IS THAT BLATANT) this is what is referred to as the "Hispanic Sees White person in Car" Maneuver. It's also referred to as something else by the locals, but we won't go into that.

Hispanics are the only ones that do it. I am not being racist here, it's just the reality of my surroundings in an extremely multicultural neighborhood.

There is also a pedestrian version too.

They stand on the curb until they see you coming and then deliberately at the last minute meander across the road as slow as humanly possible. They avoid eye contact and assume that the oncoming car will screech to a holt.

There are also variations on the theme, such as the use of a cell phone to text while crossing the road, chatting to a friend accompanying them, or the piste d'-resistance, the young mothers that push the prams out into the intersection before themselves and then do the same thing......

I should also mention that insurance fraud due to pedestrians being hit by cars is very common in this area.

samc
June 4th, 2011, 02:27 AM
It's only dangerous if I'm stupid enough to remove my seatbelt whilst driving, in which case, I deserve any nasty shit that happens to me.

I's also dangerous if it malfunctions and not just for you but also for the people driving behind you. Think of the possible accident you could cause if your car suddenly stalls in the middle of a busy hway or intersection. There is a reason this kind of system is illegal...this might even void your insurance in the case of an accident.

nobby
June 4th, 2011, 03:46 AM
In my neighborhood (and I'm just gonna come out and say it because I really don't care. IT IS THAT BLATANT) this is what is referred to as the "Hispanic Sees White person in Car" Maneuver. It's also referred to as something else by the locals, but we won't go into that.

Hispanics are the only ones that do it. I am not being racist here, it's just the reality of my surroundings in an extremely multicultural neighborhood.

There is also a pedestrian version too.

They stand on the curb until they see you coming and then deliberately at the last minute meander across the road as slow as humanly possible. They avoid eye contact and assume that the oncoming car will screech to a holt.

There are also variations on the theme, such as the use of a cell phone to text while crossing the road, chatting to a friend accompanying them, or the piste d'-resistance, the young mothers that push the prams out into the intersection before themselves and then do the same thing......

I should also mention that insurance fraud due to pedestrians being hit by cars is very common in this area.

In my area we have aliens who have probably never seen an Earth vehicle before, or at least that's how they "drive".

They don't even know some of the basic functions of the equipment.

Maybe on Mars or whatever the fuck planet you're from, the thing in the middle of the steering column is a doorbell, but on my planet it's a car horn.

:doubledeuce:

samc
June 4th, 2011, 07:14 AM
In my neighborhood (and I'm just gonna come out and say it because I really don't care. IT IS THAT BLATANT) this is what is referred to as the "Hispanic Sees White person in Car" Maneuver. It's also referred to as something else by the locals, but we won't go into that.

Hispanics are the only ones that do it. I am not being racist here, it's just the reality of my surroundings in an extremely multicultural neighborhood.

There is also a pedestrian version too.

They stand on the curb until they see you coming and then deliberately at the last minute meander across the road as slow as humanly possible. They avoid eye contact and assume that the oncoming car will screech to a holt.

There are also variations on the theme, such as the use of a cell phone to text while crossing the road, chatting to a friend accompanying them, or the piste d'-resistance, the young mothers that push the prams out into the intersection before themselves and then do the same thing......

I should also mention that insurance fraud due to pedestrians being hit by cars is very common in this area.

I am really offended by some of the statements here and what they imply. But of course we always knew that bad driving and crime are the exclusive domain of 'certain' people.

Logan
June 4th, 2011, 03:19 PM
Well the pedestrian thing that irks me is done by good old white yuppie idiots. I live in a rural area and seldom see a pedestrian but when I'm in Toronto, there is a certain class of anti vehicle idealoges that march into evey intersection head down with abosolute righteous conviction that they have the right away. fuck wouldn't you want to look at least maybe a cars brakes fail, maybe it's being driven by a texting idiot, maybe ice conditions mean a car will slide some, but nope I'm gona throw myself out there, cause I'm better than you I don't own a car and I'm pure. You can see it in their scowling faces as they face down the unenlightened vehicle owners in their mountain co-op gear. I'm pretty respecful of bikes and pedestrians but shit respect goes both ways, I'm watching out for you at least take a glance and look out for me. take care Logan

ivmike
June 4th, 2011, 03:54 PM
I's also dangerous if it malfunctions and not just for you but also for the people driving behind you. Think of the possible accident you could cause if your car suddenly stalls in the middle of a busy hway or intersection. There is a reason this kind of system is illegal...this might even void your insurance in the case of an accident.

It is not illegal and it does not void my insurance.

If my car suddenly stalls (like running out of petrol or the timing belt snaps) then I do what I've done previously (with other cars and trucks) in those situations:

I hit the hazard lights
I put the car out of gear (neutral on automatics)
Coast to the shoulder
Call CAA/AAA
Get car towed to service centre

You're making it sound like if there is an issue with the car stalling that it suddenly explodes and takes the lives of people in a 3 mile radius.

nobby
June 4th, 2011, 08:18 PM
I also like "The speed limit is for others, I drive safely at 180 km/h". Or "I have better brakes, it's OK for me to drive 3 feet behind you even though we are doing 120 km/h". Or "Sure those two lanes are merging into one and the signs telling me so started 2 miles ago, but I think I'll pass everyone and squeeze my big ole selfish ass in the other lane at the last possible moment."
Or... I could go on all day. I always tell people that if they behaved at a party like they behave on the road they would get kicked out in a heartbeat.

I'm a professional bus driver (though I'm sure hoping I can become a FORMER professional bus driver soon!), and the sheer amount of idiotic behavior I see on the road every time I'm behind the wheel is pretty staggering. When you consider just how many folks are talking on cell phones, texting, speeding, weaving in and out of traffic, or just plain don't seem to have ANY situational awareness at all, putting on a seat belt seems like a no-brainer.

Oh.

I do want to take a minor detour here to address this point:



The correct place (as well as the legal place) to merge is actually anywhere up to the merge point. Both lanes are open up to that point, and it makes no sense to not use them. In fact, if everyone moves over two miles back, you'll have a longer traffic jam, as you'll have twice as many cars in one lane. Merge doesn't mean "if you're nice, we'll let you in", it means "two lanes become one, alternate vehicles".

Cheers, Tim

I think you two are talking about two similar but different things and you're both right.

Goes is referring to a high speed merge, Tim is referring to a slow speed merge, often referred to locally as a 'bottleneck".

Smileyblue
June 4th, 2011, 10:23 PM
In my area we have aliens who have probably never seen an Earth vehicle before, or at least that's how they "drive".

They don't even know some of the basic functions of the equipment.

Maybe on Mars or whatever the fuck planet you're from, the thing in the middle of the steering column is a doorbell, but on my planet it's a car horn.

:doubledeuce:

Nobby,

As you have experienced yourself, there are areas of my hood that there is no way you are gonna honk your horn or yell at people......

OR have you forgotten your little run in down on Ocean Avenue???? :doubledeuce:

nobby
June 4th, 2011, 10:40 PM
Nobby,

As you have experienced yourself, there are areas of my hood that there is no way you are gonna honk your horn or yell at people......

OR have you forgotten your little run in down on Ocean Avenue???? :doubledeuce:

Either I have or you're thinking of someone else.

And the phrase, "Ocean Avenue" is meaningless. Do you have any idea how many Ocean Avenues there are between where you are and I am?

samc
June 5th, 2011, 05:27 PM
An interesting study:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt

Risk compensation
Some have proposed that the number of deaths was influenced by the development of risk compensation, which says that drivers adjust their behavior in response to the increased sense of personal safety wearing a seat belt provides.
In one trial subjects were asked to drive go-karts around a track under various conditions. It was found that subjects who started driving unbelted drove consistently faster when subsequently belted.[57] Similarly, a study of habitual non-seatbelt wearers driving in freeway conditions found evidence that they had adapted to seatbelt use by adopting higher driving speeds and closer following distances.[58] Similar responses have been shown in respect of anti-lock braking system, airbags, and, more recently, the electronic stability control system.[citation needed]
A 2001 analysis of US crash data aimed to establish the effects of seatbelt legislation on driving fatalities[59] and found that previous estimates of seatbelts effectiveness had been significantly overstated. According to the analysis used, seatbelts were claimed to have decreased fatalities by 1.35% for each 10% increase in seatbelt use. The study controlled for endogenous motivations of seat belt use, which it is claimed creates an artificial correlation between seat belt use and fatalities, leading to the conclusion that seatbelts cause fatalities. For example, drivers in high risk areas are more likely to use seat belts, and are more likely to be in accidents, creating a non-causal correlation between seatbelt use and mortality. After accounting for the endogeneity of seatbelt usage, Cohen and Einav found no evidence that the risk compensation effect makes seatbelt wearing drivers more dangerous, a finding at variance with other research.

Smileyblue
June 5th, 2011, 07:50 PM
Either I have or you're thinking of someone else.

And the phrase, "Ocean Avenue" is meaningless. Do you have any idea how many Ocean Avenues there are between where you are and I am?

I can understand if you have blocked it from your memory...I would too. It was definitely you Nobby.

I seem to remember a time not so long ago you were traveling down here for the MMRS. You got off the wrong exit and ended up in downtown JC....Crips territory. IT WAS AFTER DARK.....

I received a panicked phone call from you where you told me you were on Ocean Ave, you had all the doors locked the windows rolled up and the locals, since you were the only white dude with long hair in the hood, thought you were there to score crack and were tapping on your window.

I believe my advice at the time was, "Turn the car around and floor it back to JFK boulevard"

Is it all coming back to you now???

I know many spliffs and bottles of red have passed both our lips since that time but I am sure you remember. Slippy certainly remembers it well.

nobby
June 5th, 2011, 09:38 PM
I can understand if you have blocked it from your memory...I would too. It was definitely you Nobby.

I seem to remember a time not so long ago you were traveling down here for the MMRS. You got off the wrong exit and ended up in downtown JC....Crips territory. IT WAS AFTER DARK.....

I received a panicked phone call from you where you told me you were on Ocean Ave, you had all the doors locked the windows rolled up and the locals, since you were the only white dude with long hair in the hood, thought you were there to score crack and were tapping on your window.

I believe my advice at the time was, "Turn the car around and floor it back to JFK boulevard"

Is it all coming back to you now???

I know many spliffs and bottles of red have passed both our lips since that time but I am sure you remember. Slippy certainly remembers it well.

I remember that. Pounce and his fiancee' were in my car, too.

I just don't consider that a run-in, I consider it getting lost. And I didn't wait for your advice to leave when I saw the locals approaching.

run-in (rnn)
n.
1. A quarrel or an argument.
2. Printing Matter added to a text.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/run-in

G cubed
June 5th, 2011, 11:22 PM
hwBoa-NbNL8


Sorry :weedstore:

...just had to. :lol:

overeasy
June 5th, 2011, 11:43 PM
"Embedding disabled, etc..."

be sorry for THAT! :grin::weedstore:

overeasy
June 5th, 2011, 11:57 PM
"Embedding disabled, etc..."

be sorry for THAT! :grin::weedstore:



NAHHHH I AM A DOOOUUCCHHHHE.

sorry, link is fine.

I suck.

qharley
June 6th, 2011, 05:46 AM
An interesting study:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt

Interesting indeed - but it is not going to prevent me from wearing mine.

Reason? Those other "BAD" seatbelt wearers are out there... I need to protect myself against them!

samc
June 6th, 2011, 07:14 AM
The authors of the study certainly don't suggest we should stop wearing seat belts, never the less the results are interesting.

As I suspected I can't find one automobile manufacturer that offers a seat belt system that stalls the automobile if the belt is unbuckled. In fact none of them even offer a car that wont start if the belt is not buckled anymore, and the three companies I did call said they never offered a first system because it is dangerous and illegal in most countries that they sell their cars in.

They don't mention the stall system in this article but it's interesting all the same:
In North America, cars sold since the early 1970s have included an audiovisual reminder system consisting of a light on the dashboard and a buzzer or chime reminding the driver and passengers to fasten their belts. Originally, these lights were accompanied by a warning buzzer whenever the transmission was in any position except park if either the driver was not buckled up or, as determined by a pressure sensor in the passenger's seat, if there was a passenger there not buckled up. However, this was considered by many to be a major annoyance, as the light would be on and the buzzer would sound continuously if front-seat passengers were not buckled up. Therefore, people who did not wish to buckle up would defeat this system by fastening the seatbelts with the seat empty and leaving them that way.
By the mid-1970s, auto manufacturers modified the system so that a warning buzzer would sound for several seconds before turning off (with the warning light), regardless of whether the car was started. However, if the driver was buckled up, the light would appear, but with no buzzer. New cars sold in the United States in 1974 and the first part of the 1975 model year were sold with a special "ignition interlock", whereby the driver could not start the car until the seat belt was fastened; however, this system was short-lived.
Today, the belt warning light may stay on for several minutes after the car is started if the driver's seat belt is not fastened.
In Europe and some other parts of the world, most modern cars include a seat-belt reminder light for the driver and some also include a reminder for the passenger, when present, activated by a pressure sensor under the passenger seat. Some cars will intermittently flash the reminder light and sound the chime until the driver (and sometimes the front passenger, if present) fasten their seatbelts.

Slipperman
June 6th, 2011, 01:39 PM
I don't wear me no seatbelt never.

Can't aim an automatic rifle out of a car window properly with one on.

That's no way to live.

Anyhoo.

No matter.

Everybody should get a fucking tank.

Clearly the founding fathers would have agreed it's a logical "vehicular extension" of our 2nd Amendment rights.

In this way:

All insurances, police, roadworks and jurisprudential redress should be obviated.

No. Really.

That's what's wrong with this world.

Superior "combat conditions" teamwork in tactical and navigational matters, coupled with bravery, elan, daring, ruthless blood-lust, and of course... the obligatory set of precision gunnery skills, should determine ones urban travel survivability prospectus.

Remember.

Hostility is the new civility.

Guderian for Secretary of Transportation.

SM.

Fulcrum
June 6th, 2011, 02:03 PM
Beautifully stated, as always.

Hate is the new love.

War Is Peace.

Freedom Is Slavery.

Ignorance Is Strength.*



































* As proven by certain people who've posted in this thread and are now on my official ignore list.

majestikc
June 6th, 2011, 02:26 PM
Living on the edge..........at 40mph