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View Full Version : LET'S GET RID OF AUTOTUNE


gonzo-x
June 27th, 2011, 10:29 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/opinions/outlook/spring-cleaning-2011/auto-tune.html

BOOM CRASH SING!!
June 27th, 2011, 11:01 PM
I never liked it. I don't use it and yes, I hate that people who don't have great pitch can be passed off as people who do.. It's not the obvious effectish' use of it that bugs me {OK, so that's an effect}. It's that a clever engineer can make below average singers sound like above average singers.


I understand that studio owners need to have it for clients who have decided that they 'need' it.. But I don't own a studio. So, as a writer and singer who's worked hard at sounding good.. It just pisses me off.

The world would sound better without it.. No doubt.

P.S. To be clear, I just used this 'tool' on a record as a producer. I begged the singer to spend the money on takes and I KNEW FOR SURE she could have done it and the record would have been better.. She now has it in her head that she cant record without it.. Guess what.. ANOTHER potentially really GOOD singer will be a below average one, thanks to being sold the idea that either: A. It's not worth the effort to develop good pitch. or: B. She wont get there even if she tries.

Yuk!!

BOOM!!

BOOM!!

radiationroom
June 28th, 2011, 12:08 AM
Slipperman has a quotable comment floating around the WOMB about Cher and Autotune that is spot on.

Also spot on is Larry Crane's article. Spot on to the tee.

And we can get rid of L2 abuse while we are at it.

Johnny
June 28th, 2011, 12:26 AM
"kudzu in the garden of pop music." Perfect.

Damage, Inc.
June 28th, 2011, 02:38 AM
It's that a clever engineer can make below average singers sound like above average singers.

Clever engineers have always been able to do this through editing. Now, any asshole can make any other asshole sound (to the untrained ear, anyway) like he or she can sing. Boo.

CloseToTheEdge
June 28th, 2011, 03:04 PM
The fraudulence of autotune is reason enough to do away with it, but when it is cranked up to make people sound like cyborgs, sweet jesus that's so fucking annoying I just want to jam a drumstick in my ear and I'm not even a fucking drummer!

Sometimes my kids will play a new recording for me and ask me to keep an open mind. As soon as I hear autotune, I cannot help myself and blurt out "But it's autotuned." If they don't stop playing it at that point, I keep repeating "It's autotuned." until it stops. I'm trying to train them to not play stuff for me that's autotuned. They've turned me on to a lot of cool music over the years. None of the cool music was autotuned, as far as I know.

In my opinion, autotune destroys music and helps no-talent hacks infiltrate the music business.

The other day I was in a record store and some music was playing. I bitched to the person behind the counter that I hated autotune and he said "That's a talk box". I said "Oh yeah, you're right, it is! I fucking hate them too!"

Fucking autotune. Fucking talk boxes.

:very happy:

Tim Halligan
June 28th, 2011, 03:48 PM
Fucking talk boxes.


Mr Frampton thanks you for your input.

Cheers,
DoyoufeellikeIdo...er, Tim

BOOM CRASH SING!!
June 28th, 2011, 04:12 PM
Talk boxes are fun live..

My point is that a person can use these tuning 'tools' on a singer, and very few will know.. Even engineers wont always hear it.. That's the whole point.. If people 'know what they're doing' they can make a below average singer sound pretty damn good without it sounding like auto tune..

Lots of singers have ok pitch.They can be made to sound like they have really good pitch, without it sounding like an effect.. The supper tuned effect doesn't bother me because we can hear it..

In general, with all the editing and tuning going on, it's not actual music anymore.

This is bad for the art form..

samc
June 28th, 2011, 06:46 PM
I'm not a fan but...just like electronic/artificial reverb, beat detective, snap to grid, excessive editing and a bunch of other modern processes and tools Autotune does not destroy music.

There is nothing more fraudulent in it's use than using a Lexicon reverb box to create a fake hall sound, and nobody is forced to use it. Autotune does not prevent you from making the music you like the way you like.

Comte de St Germain
June 28th, 2011, 07:40 PM
Haven't used it in 2 years.

Used to pitch wheel in the days of old.


Whatever.




Will continue to make records sound the way they should and with this one thought in mind: An engineer can turn bad into good but that's just a waste of time when you're chasing WOW!

Cosmic Pig
June 28th, 2011, 07:42 PM
I hate to agree with samc, since what he said was awful, but its true. Except for the sarcastic part.

My 22 year old kid has a band and tried to play for a while, tracked some decent tunes, did some "shows", band had some serious potential. Now he's into dubstep and going to see DJ's with 100,000 watt sound systems.

I tried to get the band into doing their own versions of covers so they could at least get out there and become real players through repetition, but they "won't play that shit" because their "music is pure" etc etc.

But I digress. We're just old, or we like other styles. Music has evolved to an ugly place for us, vastly cool and better for others.

It'll come around again, but the techno stuff and otto is here to stay and valid.

Still sux tho.

Cos.

T.Bay
June 29th, 2011, 12:57 AM
Clever engineers have always been able to do this through editing. Now, any asshole can make any other asshole sound (to the untrained ear, anyway) like he or she can sing play. Boo.

After the uber edited mix of the quad stacked guitars you posted of your own band, I have to agree with SamC, that shit sucks. Maybe in five years you might agree with me, maybe not, nothing personal.

:beer:

BOOM CRASH SING!!
June 29th, 2011, 02:15 AM
I disagree that engineers have always been able to do what auototune can do.. Tuning a note here or there with the wheel isn't the same as taking 3 hours to make believe someone can sing.. Then, people say "Man, he/she sings there ass off"..

Putting a band into a space doesn't suddenly make it seem like the guitar player can play..

The tools of editing and tuning, midi and machine drums has been and continues to be a disaster for us, culturally..

Just an observation...

BOOM!!

John Eppstein
June 29th, 2011, 04:15 AM
The other day I was in a record store and some music was playing. I bitched to the person behind the counter that I hated autotune and he said "That's a talk box". I said "Oh yeah, you're right, it is! I fucking hate them too!"

Fucking autotune. Fucking talk boxes.

:very happy:

The difference is that it actually takes a considerable amount of skill and practice to get anything at all useable out of a talk box. Which is why so few people use them.

EDIT: Concerning Otto - the thing that makes Otto (and Bleat Detective) different from effects like digital reverb and delay is that the latter are artistic embellishments to an already competent performance, whereas the former are used to make people who should not be allowed near a studio without a muzzle and handcuffs appear to be passable, if somewhat soulless, musicians. That degrades the art form. They also encourage picky overthinking of "perfection" and editing with the eyes, not the ears - which also degrade the art form.

Damage, Inc.
June 29th, 2011, 04:30 AM
After the uber edited mix of the quad stacked guitars you posted of your own band,

Wow, why don't you tell me how you really feel. :otek:

FWIW, I did edit a couple breaks where I wasn't tight, but most of that is technique rather than editing.

Aardvark
June 29th, 2011, 04:37 AM
I'm not a fan but...just like electronic/artificial reverb, beat detective, snap to grid, excessive editing and a bunch of other modern processes and tools Autotune does not destroy music.

Absolute agreement here.

It is a tool in the work bucket and if you rely on it too much that is your business.

I have sat in a session where the Producer looked sideways at the vocal track and asked what could we do to fix the problem... I could have fucked about with tape machines/vari-speeds or did the old H3500 trick but for the five seconds it took I made the client happy.

Overuse of reverb sucks (real or natural) as does any number of techniques that were de rigueur back in the day and auto is no different.

The fact that it enables hacks is no big deal... most tools of our trade do just that and that is why we learned to use them when we had the chance.


There is nothing more fraudulent in it's use than using a Lexicon reverb box to create a fake hall sound...

Here we disagree.

Learning to sing is different than building a fucking chamber or having a hall handy come mix time... build yourself a nice studio sometime and get back to me on that one.:Wink:


Cheers,
Aardvark




.

giraffe
June 29th, 2011, 05:04 AM
Wow, why don't you tell me how you really feel. :otek:

FWIW, I did edit a couple breaks where I wasn't tight, but most of that is technique rather than editing.

your facebook page is messed up, you have to like the band BEFORE you listen to the music.
you should fix that.

qharley
June 29th, 2011, 08:37 AM
Another thing about "music" at the moment is that the really popular ones seems to drone on on a single note, in addition to the stupid autotuning. What's up with that?

In the days before autotune having an actual melody to follow helped to keep you in tune anyway.

Stuff autotune... I want my melodies back.

:tinfoil:

otek
June 29th, 2011, 08:52 AM
Sometimes my kids will play a new recording for me and ask me to keep an open mind. As soon as I hear autotune, I cannot help myself and blurt out "But it's autotuned." If they don't stop playing it at that point, I keep repeating "It's autotuned." until it stops.

Do your kids make fun of you a lot?

Seriously, that sounds like a horrible mindset for enjoying music, and an even more horrible mindset for keeping your kids interested in it. Personally I hate it when I am playing music to someone who cannot stop wearing his or her "engineering hat", and it's even worse when people appoint themselves officers of the "music police".

I would suggest a slightly less zealous approach.


otek

samc
June 29th, 2011, 09:03 AM
Here we disagree.
We shouldn't; not everybody who uses autotune use it to correct bad singing, a lot of people use it as an effect just like how some of us use reverb on a vocal. It is also used everyday to tweak a word or two in some generally good performance by people who can sing.

It's use in the studio is no more fraudulent than using a chamber to artificially create an ambiance around a voice or using beat detective to correct an errant drummer....

Sam
June 29th, 2011, 09:31 AM
I have to have a giggle at all the puritans when it comes to tuning.....especially when they talk about it ruining a performance ;)

I am all about performance over technicality....if i can get a singer to smash out a heartfelt balltearing take that only needs a few bumps here and there on the bits that were out of tune and NOT 'character', then I will use the tools available and sleep well at night too. To me the end result will have a HEAP more character and performance than something I have created from a bunch of dropins and beating a singer half to death mentally and physically in the process.

Its just a tool. No one should be able to tell I have used it, and the performance will still have natural ebbs and flows around perfect. But to out of hand decry its evilness is a little over the top IMO. So is tuning the fuck out of every inch of the vocal. As with everything it comes down to 'how', not 'what' so much....

BTW - listening to any Glee stuff makes me want to hurt kittens, especially the male vox.....that is a shining example of how NOT to use the tool. They aren't even using it as an effect at all - nothing good about what that crew do with it.....

samc
June 29th, 2011, 09:33 AM
EDIT: Concerning Otto - the thing that makes Otto (and Bleat Detective) different from effects like digital reverb and delay is that the latter are artistic embellishments to an already competent performance,
What it is is determined by how it is used, in a lot of cases they are used to embellish and in some cases it is used as an effect. It's just that we generally don't hear it in the former.


whereas the former are used to make people who should not be allowed near a studio without a muzzle and handcuffs appear to be passable, if somewhat soulless, musicians. That degrades the art form. They also encourage picky overthinking of "perfection" and editing with the eyes, not the ears - which also degrade the art form.
A lot of people here are slinging this around but autotune does not make bad singers sound good, it only make them sound autotuned and the people who make 'bad' production decisions would still be making them (bad decisions) without autotune.

J.G.
June 29th, 2011, 09:47 AM
I do not like autotune/melodyne used as a blanket application to entire vocal tracks. Sure a note here or there in an otherwise killer and moving performance, perhaps but clearly, that's not how it's being used in today's pop scene.

Seems like every time hear (pop) radio, I enter this weird alternate universe where seemingly, all the other monkeys all around me are either deaf or they somehow, *gullllp*----------LIKE that sound. :headpalm:

Then there's the new singers comin' up on this perfect, boring, nuance-less sound who are unfortunately mimicking it and wow, that's a whole other poo-niverse on its own...

Mic's warm, gotta track...

; J

madtheory
June 29th, 2011, 10:15 AM
...autotune does not make bad singers sound good, it only make them sound autotuned and the people who make 'bad' production decisions would still be making them (bad decisions) without autotune.
Yes, this is true. If anything needs to be "spring cleaned" it's the false notion of perfection/ bad production. Don't blame the tool. As someone said earlier, echo chambers can be scapegoated too.

otek
June 29th, 2011, 10:17 AM
Seems like every time hear (pop) radio, I enter this weird alternate universe where seemingly, all the other monkeys all around me are either deaf or they somehow, *gullllp*----------LIKE that sound. :headpalm:

If you are talking about the general public monkeys as opposed to the professional engineering monkeys and, to some degree, the musician monkeys... I don't believe they even think about it in those terms.

To most people, it's just music. They either like it or they don't.


otek

J.G.
June 29th, 2011, 10:32 AM
True dat, big O, true DAT.

Guess that's why I likes my tweeting Blackbirds so much.

; J

samc
June 29th, 2011, 11:19 AM
Some perspective:

One of my grandmothers (classical pianist and math teacher) hated the Beatles music because she thought that it was too trite and easy.

Remember what happened to Bob Dylan when he went electric in 1965? He was constantly booed and called names for appearing with an electric guitar, an electric band and playing rock and roll music.

This sounds familiar:
In the September (1965) issue of Sing Out!, singer Ewan MacColl wrote: "Our traditional songs and ballads are the creations of extraordinarily talented artists working inside disciplines formulated over time... 'But what of Bobby Dylan?' scream the outraged teenagers... Only a completely non-critical audience, nourished on the watery pap of pop music, could have fallen for such tenth-rate drivel."

The overreaction to the use of autotune is rather silly at this point, maybe it's time we stop trying to be the music/art police for everybody else.

T.Bay
June 29th, 2011, 01:29 PM
Wow, why don't you tell me how you really feel. :otek:

FWIW, I did edit a couple breaks where I wasn't tight, but most of that is technique rather than editing.

I thought that was the whole point Damage Inc.?

The drums sounded completely replaced, and you had 3 extra guitars you didn't really need.

(edit: I'm pretty sure that mix is no longer the one in the link.)

I was kinda liking it up to the final mix, then had to turn it off, couldn't listen to it all.

Meh, doesn't really matter...that happens a lot with self produced stuff.

Like 80's reverb and autotune it will eventually sound dated.

I prefer to listen to bands who actually record like a band, as I can appreciate better how their arrangements sound big.

Brendo
June 29th, 2011, 04:01 PM
Meh, doesn't really matter...that happens a lot with self produced stuff.

Like 80's reverb and autotune it will eventually sound dated.

I prefer to listen to bands who actually record like a band, as I can appreciate better how their arrangements sound big.I haven't heard the mix in question but the things you're calling him out on are not uncommon for the style of music that his band plays.

He's not aiming for "Led Zep II" here.

T.Bay
June 29th, 2011, 04:19 PM
I haven't heard the mix in question but the things you're calling him out on are not uncommon for the style of music that his band plays.

He's not aiming for "Led Zep II" here.

Yeah, I was probably being too harsh, he's a good player :Thumbsup:.

I just don't want to hear all 4 guitars and the obvious drum samples.

I want to be convinced its real, even if it's not.

CloseToTheEdge
June 29th, 2011, 04:30 PM
Some more random vents from my spleen...

I'm not suggesting some kind of mix "police", but rather that professionals might want to refrain from using technology to help fraudlently represent someone as a singer when they are not one (little sisters of current pop stars might be a good place to start).

I'm not one of your purists. I've put autotune on a vocal track that was a little pitchy. But the singer was a damn good singer, and the performance had a great energy, so it made sense to adjust that performance a little for a better outcome pitch-wise. I can live with myself for doing it.

The morality of the issue is all a matter of degree, I think. There is a big difference between returning a smile to an attractive woman when you are married to someone else, and moving beyond a smile.

Actually, there's nothing ethically wrong with using autotune to turn people into fucking robots, either; I just hate the fucking sound of it. And talk boxes too, did I mention that I hate the fucking sound of that shit? "Do you feel all right?" FUCK NO, ASSHOLE! YOU'RE USING A FUCKING TALK BOX. I FEEL LIKE PUKING ON YOUR SNEAKERS.

After a few weeks of listening to the radio in the 70s, I was ready to dip Frampton's fucking talk box tube into fucking habenero sauce and intubate him with it.

;D

Jus' saying

T.Bay
June 29th, 2011, 04:38 PM
After a few weeks of listening to the radio in the 70s, I was ready to dip Frampton's fucking talk box tube into fucking habenero sauce and intubate him with it.


That's not so bad...

Those things can virtually empty your mouth of fillings when the amp is really cranked.

Kudos to those who suffer for their art, I say.

BOOM CRASH SING!!
June 29th, 2011, 05:02 PM
If the singer knows they HAVE to get it right, they'll dig deeper.. I'll sing 'til it's right.. I'll practice, I'll sing live until it's ready to record, and so on..

In any case, we all have to do what we think is right.. That's what I'm doing, and that's what we all have to do..

I just cant listen to modern pop music. It drives me up a wall.. And now, we really don't know who the singers are.. Sad..

BOOM!!

Comte de St Germain
June 29th, 2011, 05:13 PM
It's funny, imagine a girl that can sing, most people don't know she can because she was tracked through a Bombfactory faux1176 auto tune and melodyne and takes were selected that sounded best through the plugs.

They never listened to the dry vocal ever.

Then the record was printed with minor adjustments to the plugs.

I suppose it's a form of commiting.


My failure to understand that methodolgy keeps me from the #1 Billboard single chart.

Cosmic Pig
June 29th, 2011, 07:05 PM
I likes my talkbox but solos sound goofy. Sometimes during the 20 minute acid solo I kick it on when the the whammy is plastered to the pick guard and the strings are flapping against the pickups. Then I go blaaah woo woowee om om om and the drums are all like dsh dsh dsh tish and the bass is chooga chooga chooga straight 8's real low. Then I go all squinchy faced and pee my pants cuz like the emotion is too much.

I like Mudcat's talkbox too.

Cos.

gonzo-x
June 29th, 2011, 07:31 PM
Auto Tune was developed by a former seismologist

nuff said.

eagan
June 29th, 2011, 08:57 PM
All this kind of conversation can too easily get a little to broad and general and oversimplified, methinks. Teetering right on the threshold of "why, when I was a young lad, we didn't need that stuff, as we walked to school and back eight miles through two feet of snow uphill both ways and it made me a better person now get the hell out of my yard you hooligans".

That doesn't mean that's all wrong either.

If people use tools to make crap, it's crap.

If people use tools to make wondrous works of brilliance, it's a wondrous work of brilliance.

You can have the debate for a year on "real/fake, truth/artifice, honest/cheating".

Come on. Let's get down to fundamentals. When you get right down to it, if you work in the medium of recorded music, it's ALL artifice, however "purist" you might be in some kind of audio verite. No, sir, that string quartet is not really playing for you inside those wood boxes along the wall of your living room.

I don't buy the bit about Ottotune being just like some electronic reverb as opposed to recording the ambient sound of a space.

A lot of this is essentially the same kind of argument that raged years ago as soon as people started recording keyboard parts recording MIDI note data into sequencers and then doing stuff like quantizing and tweaking individual notes. That stuff can go different ways. It depends.

It's one thing to do some of that for some little detail tweaks, or maybe to just plainly trying to do some things that humans can't perform, and doing it without pretense of it being anything other than what it is. It's another when it's trying to hack together something usable pretending to be a performing musician because the player at hand can't get through two bars without a major fuckup.

I had no problem at all with stuff happening in electronic music in the seventies where people had step sequencers driving synths bubbling and pulsing along. In fact I really loved some of that stuff. I don't give a shit that. It is what it is, and some of it was really cool... or still is, since it's not like nobody today ever does anything like that (albeit with some different equipment, probably).

But none of this means that I disagree with the people saying "fuck Oughtatune, it needs to be tossed overboard".

I remember back when samplers were a new thing and one year around Christmas some goofball had made a single recording "Jingle Bells" with the melody line performed on a sampler loaded with a sample of a dog bark, and this stupid thing was on some radio stations every half hour or something.

People are doing stuff now with Outatune of a similar clever novelty nature (you know, "Autotune the news" and that kind of shit) that's right up that alley and the day will come when doing this kind of thing might get you stoned to death by the villagers in the public square.

In the territory of "subtle fixes" use, that can be alright or maybe not so healthy. It's not the only thing like that. I mean, if we get into that sort of thing, back in yon olden days of yore when I first started doing multitrack recording (before a lot of the stuff around now in the tools department, of course), it took me about one day to come to the firm conclusion that I hated punch ins. HATE. For either the engineer or the musician doing them, it made for a hellishly tedious process that just fucking KILLS the sense of music, getting all bound up in a gruesome tedium of getting situated, getting in and out and the right, just sort of musically coming in out of nowhere to patch some tiny bit of something and losing the overall flow of a piece of music.

Some people think that's silly and would just say, oh, it's fine, just suck it up and get it done, and will grind through stretches of that shit dropping in notes or phrases in the middle of things here and there. I came to the conclusion right away that if you have to patch something like this, then at least back up and replay and record an appropriate whole section, so at least there's a sense of flow of actual music going on.


JLE

John Eppstein
June 29th, 2011, 09:46 PM
To most people, it's just music. They either like it or they don't.

What I can't help but wonder as I sit in my local bar on a Saturday night watching the Marina Yuppies listen to this stuff is whether they actually LIKE it at all (will they be listening to it in a year or two?) or do they just accept it as background noise because it's what's currently "popular", which is to say it's what the mass media outlets are cramming down their throats?

John Eppstein
June 29th, 2011, 09:59 PM
Actually, there's nothing ethically wrong with using autotune to turn people into fucking robots, either; I just hate the fucking sound of it. And talk boxes too, did I mention that I hate the fucking sound of that shit? "Do you feel all right?" FUCK NO, ASSHOLE! YOU'RE USING A FUCKING TALK BOX. I FEEL LIKE PUKING ON YOUR SNEAKERS.

After a few weeks of listening to the radio in the 70s, I was ready to dip Frampton's fucking talk box tube into fucking habenero sauce and intubate him with it.

;D

Jus' saying

You oughtta love this:

0dTFajHVyHo

otek
June 29th, 2011, 10:14 PM
You oughtta love this:

Watch the blonde girl's hand claps on the far right.


otek

CloseToTheEdge
June 29th, 2011, 11:32 PM
Do your kids make fun of you a lot?

Seriously, that sounds like a horrible mindset for enjoying music, and an even more horrible mindset for keeping your kids interested in it. Personally I hate it when I am playing music to someone who cannot stop wearing his or her "engineering hat", and it's even worse when people appoint themselves officers of the "music police".

I would suggest a slightly less zealous approach.


otek

Most of what I post is hyperbolic and grossly exaggerated for effect.

I'm their dad, of course they make fun of me a lot. That is the foundation of the father/daughter relationship!

Actually we all enjoy sharing our music with each other. I turned them onto every classic rock act I could remember, they turned me onto Elliot Smith, Sigur Ros and lots of other good stuff.

None of us is overly-enamored with autotuned stuff, but they like some hip-hop that has it on there and I give them some measure of shit about it. Of course, they give me shit about stuff with a Hammond in it, anything that reeks of jazz, and anything overly pompous and prog-rock-ish (the stuff I like best).

So it goes...

Damage, Inc.
June 30th, 2011, 12:05 AM
your facebook page is messed up, you have to like the band BEFORE you listen to the music.
you should fix that.

Fixed, thanks for letting me know.

giraffe
June 30th, 2011, 02:03 AM
all better.

BOOM CRASH SING!!
June 30th, 2011, 06:02 AM
I admit that my age has something to do with with how I'm hearing today's pop music.. For those of us who grew up listening to the radio when, on the same station, we would hear tunes from every style, back to back in the same hour, and nearly every tune was a great bit of song writing, and there was a band that nailed it, and the singers had to sing..

It seems like most of what 'charts' these days, is quite forgettable.. Hardly any changes, and on top of that they autotune it..

The truth is, I feel bad about having to report my almost total disappointment in today's 'pop' music.

BOOM!!

sqkychair
July 1st, 2011, 04:56 PM
Ha Ha Pete Drake! Unbelievable.

No matter how new you think an idea is, somebody did it already long ago.

I was thinking about this while listening to some Mozart the other day.

I don't care what clever musical idea you come up with, Mozart already did it way better than you.:lol:

For the record, I think autotune is a great tool and a fantastic software programming accomplishment.

Bob Olhsson
July 1st, 2011, 10:14 PM
...An engineer can turn bad into good but that's just a waste of time when you're chasing WOW!For emphasis. Only WOW! is going to pay the bills.

Damage, Inc.
July 4th, 2011, 03:58 AM
I prefer to listen to bands who actually record like a band, as I can appreciate better how their arrangements sound big.

That's up to you then...I get the feeling more and more that this is the wrong forum to get an opinion on this style of music. I recorded four guitars for two main reasons:

1. I want stereo guitars panned hard. It's metal (I guess) and I feel it needs big guitars. The VH thing with guitar on one side and verb on the other doesn't work for me.

2. I didn't get the tone I wanted from the first two tracks. If I had been able to use a multi-amp setup at the guitar session, I may have done it that way, but it didn't happen.

As for the drums, there is a snare sample, but it is mixed pretty low. It's just there for snap. I didn't replace or Beat Detective anything. I don't own it, and don't have any concept of how to use it.

T.Bay
July 4th, 2011, 05:20 AM
That's up to you then...I get the feeling more and more that this is the wrong forum to get an opinion on this style of music. I recorded four guitars for two main reasons:

1. I want stereo guitars panned hard. It's metal (I guess) and I feel it needs big guitars. The VH thing with guitar on one side and verb on the other doesn't work for me.

2. I didn't get the tone I wanted from the first two tracks. If I had been able to use a multi-amp setup at the guitar session, I may have done it that way, but it didn't happen.

As for the drums, there is a snare sample, but it is mixed pretty low. It's just there for snap. I didn't replace or Beat Detective anything. I don't own it, and don't have any concept of how to use it.

Hey Man, I don't want to dis your band in any way, I like what you do when you COPY arrangements.

I haven't edited a 'performance' for a coupla years now, thats not likely to change in a hurry.

It's easy to blame your TONE on those first two recorded tracks, when its actually the arrangement that doesn't FIT the song...

Your problem is not YOUR talent with your instrument, its your bands arrangement of your music...as per fucking usual, no change there, its the same as every other fucking 'band with potential' I get to record...

sorry for the rant.

...& I just listened to Slipperman's latest narrative so I am uncomfortable and liable to outbursts of extreme truth.

But stereo guitars on four tracks...just deal with the music and ONE guitar will sound HUGE.

FYI, your drums recorded up against the wall sounds EXACTLY like drums recorded up against a wall.

Please forgive me if I sound overly stressed about all this today.

otek
July 4th, 2011, 11:56 AM
Not for nothing, but I think you are over-dramatizing this, T.Bay.

It sounds like an axe in search of a grinding stone to me. I quadruple guitars all the time. I bet Slipperman does it all the time, too. Bands from many genres are doing it, and great songs and sounds are coming from it all the time. It's a certain sound.

If I would say anything about multiple guitar layers, it would be to try and get them as diverse as possible. Use different amps and different guitars, different amounts of gain, and above all, different playing. Make one layer with chugs and one with chords, play in different positions and different inversions. Simply moving one layer up an octave can be a great way of making quadruples actually add size. If you track them exactly the same, it turns into mush quite quickly.



otek

NathanRocks88
July 4th, 2011, 08:00 PM
Well, I had an example of "guitar overdubbing from the depths of hell" in mind.

But it seems that the band in question (which was horribly sacked by the record label) and any trace of the record has been all but obliterated from the internots.

Future Leaders of the World "Watching You Fall" - if you can find the studio version, god bless us everyone.

128 channels of guitar multimic cabinets, stomp box effects, tones that sound like they shouldn't ever be recorded magically making a difference in the song. yadayadayada.

Or as Slippy would say

HOHOHO

128 stacked guitars is the worst recording experience I ever gained. Even the mix engineer on that record thought it was the absolute bane of his existence.

Damage, Inc.
July 4th, 2011, 08:41 PM
I don't really understand what we're arguing about any more. Do the guitars sound like mush? The two tracks I did first ended up being the midrange and low mids on the mix. I realized there weren't enough highs and chuggy lows, so I tracked two more guitars with a scooped out tone. The blend of the two felt much better to me in the mix and similar to my reference mixes.