Before The Music Dies

[Bob Olhsson]

Here's something all of us can get involved with by hosting a screening..

http://www.beforethemusicdies.com

XM Broadcast Premiere – November 12!
On Sunday night November 12, the audio version of B4MD will premiere in its entirety - followed by an exclusive half-hour interview hosted by XM’s Bob Edwards with the B4MD filmmakers, Andrew Shapter and Joel Rasmussen. The premiere and interview special will air at 9 p.m. ET on XM Public Radio (XM 133).
XM 24-Hour B4MD Broadcast – November 19!
At the conclusion of the weeklong grassroots event, XM will provide a 24-hour loop of the B4MD audio broadcast and Bob Edwards interview on the XM LIVE channel (XM 200) beginning at 8 a.m. ET on November 19.

[malice]

What Marsalis said is just flooring, and so true.

R.Charles and Stevie wouldn't have stand a chance today because their blind.

frightening

malice

[bbchessman]

I guess I'm too apathetic. As far as I'm concerned, the "Music" part of the "music industry" is over.

It's all business, all commerce and a lot more 'predictable' than one realizes.

If I wanna hear new music, I go on guitar nine or some other website, which hosts a bunch of indie musicians-some which are very talented.

I don't see Sony, Virgin, Atlantic, EMI, Columbia, Warner, Universal, BMG, Arista, RCA etc, ever selling music again. They sell entertainment.

[clicktrack]

I guess I'm too apathetic. As far as I'm concerned, the "Music" part of the "music industry" is over.

It's all business, all commerce and a lot more 'predictable' than one realizes.


But my question is...when did the idea about talent leave the industry? Why is it that Ashlee Simpson and Paris Hilton can have records while real artists are shunned because they aren't marketable enough? Has the industry fooled the buying public enough so that they think that talent is just a "nice to have"?

[Bob Olhsson]

Those folks are already celebrities.

The problem is that musical performers aren't becoming celebrities today except on American Idol.

Is it really that bad? I'm not sure but it is a worrying trend.

[Fulcrum]

Why is it that Ashlee Simpson and Paris Hilton can have records while real artists are shunned because they aren't marketable enough? Has the industry fooled the buying public enough so that they think that talent is just a "nice to have"?

'Cause real artists might want some actual input as to what goes on their record-- look at The Monkees running up against Don Kirschner for a prime example. Better to have someone who will just do what he or she is told, because who needs the added aggravation when you're trying to follow that time-tested recipe for having a hit record?

[jerryskid]

Most of the industry was ruined by the onset of MTV, a channel which you now can hardly even find a video on....Once videos became popular, it wasn't how good a singer, or songwriter you were, it became how you looked....and sadly it's still that way today...I was watching the Country Music Awards with my mother the other night, and I commented how good looking all the winners were...until they got to best song writers...and here came the fat and ugly folk....God the music industry sucks...

[Bob Olhsson]

I heard the audio broadcast tonight. It was very good and I can't wait to see the movie.

My only beef is that, like most contemporary music pundits, it seems to ignore the role live shows traditionally played and places far too much emphasis on record companies and radio. Still I think this gets more of it right than anything else I've run into.

[bbchessman]

Most of the industry was ruined by the onset of MTV, a channel which you now can hardly even find a video on....Once videos became popular, it wasn't how good a singer, or songwriter you were, it became how you looked....and sadly it's still that way today...I was watching the Country Music Awards with my mother the other night, and I commented how good looking all the winners were...until they got to best song writers...and here came the fat and ugly folk....God the music industry sucks...

Geez Jerry, talk about "not just hitting the nail on the head but driving it all the way through the wood and out the other end."

No shit.

A friend of mine wrote a couple articles about this-one which was in Billbored twenty years ago.

MTV killed music. It took away the "mystique" factor and it put the focus on the visual and off the audio.

My same friend once told me that he was teaching a class on the music industry at a very well known college in Los Angeles and one of the students asked him, "Have you seen that new song by Pearl Jam?"

"Seen the new song?"




(BTW Jerry, the Chargers beat the Bengals)

[jerryskid]

(BTW Jerry, the Chargers beat the Bengals)


Yeah...it's pretty sad when you have 400 yards passing and lose the game...God it was a wild one.......Sad

[graveleye]

wasnt MTV that TV show that used to play music videos?:Roll eyes:

So whats changed really... acts were making demo videos for a while before they started airing them on MTV. Music's been a lot about looks since the first movie was made. Not too many fat people up on stage are there? Even if there was no TV, I suspect the labels would prefer attractive with minimal talent to ugly and a lot of talent.

Bottom line: ITS NOT FAIR.

Whaahhh..:Uh oh:

[imagineaudio]

I signed up to host a screening. They will be doing them through the end of the year. No screening fees if you are not charging admission or if you donate proceeds to a charitable organization.


My DVD is in the mail.

[imagineaudio]

Just received my DVD's.... half-assed review comming soon.

[Jackpine]

Damn. Wish I'd have found out about this earlier. I would have hosted in a heartbeat.

[EyreSpace]

Go back about fifty years and television killed the careers of many country artists, buck ugly, inbred monstrosities with voices like angels...


Know why Kitty Wells never married Conway Twitty?















She didn't want to be known as "Kitty Twitty!"

[Bob Olhsson]

Television isn't the problem because live gigs have always been the basis of any singing career. The definition of ugly has changed a lot over time too.

The problem is ad agency mooks meddling with television and, more recently, radio programming.

[rockdart]

How does one change the dynamic though and finally say good-bye to the dinosaur way of doing things?

[shikawkee]

Television isn't the problem because live gigs have always been the basis of any singing career. The definition of ugly has changed a lot over time too.

The problem is ad agency mooks meddling with television and, more recently, radio programming.

Ad guys have been messing with music and tv since they
started making money. Who do you think sponsored those
now legendary shows?

IMO MTV changed a LOT of things.
Trends and scenes were no longer regional,
they now changed overnight EVERYWHERE,
beamed in, but pretty became waaaay more
important than before.

[imagineaudio]

Damn. Wish I'd have found out about this earlier. I would have hosted in a heartbeat.


They are still doing them through the end of the year. I'm doing mine the week before christmas. Go the website and sign up

[shikawkee]

P.S.-I do agree that live music is hurting in most cities now.

[Bob Olhsson]

Live music was the traditional end-run around the corporate mooks. When people talk about changes in the music industry, the decline in live music is the elephant in the room. Radio and retail have consolidated. There are actually more major labels and big promoters today than there were in the '50s.

[SaltyDog]

A few random observations.

k.d.lang has a gorgeous voice and an awesome talent, but you won't see her on prime (unless she does the hoe-down thing again).
I love the way that Annie Lennox thumbed her nose at the visual "needs" of the entertainment industry by dressing the vamp.
Men have it easier than women. An ugly guy has more of a chance if he has talent....very sad.
The music industry has more technology to make a star of a no-talent than ever before.
Where did Jennifer Warnes disappear to? I miss her voice.

I'm thankful that, in my mid 50's, I'm getting more people tuned into and enjoying my band than the previous 3 decades.

[Bob Olhsson]

... The music industry has more technology to make a star of a no-talent than ever before...Not really.

In the old days we just had somebody else who was REALLY good do the singing and playing. It was at least as dishonest but at least the product was great.

[J.G.]

In the old days we just had somebody else who was REALLY good do the singing and playing. It was at least as dishonest but at least the product was great.

Yup, viv them real tracks.

[willpowrd]

Live music was the traditional end-run around the corporate mooks. When people talk about changes in the music industry, the decline in live music is the elephant in the room. Radio and retail have consolidated. There are actually more major labels and big promoters today than there were in the '50s.

The Police broke out by playing in city parks and town squares all over the US, but most of that is illegal - or at least less accessible - these days.

So, how would live music do an end run today? What with most of the venues owned by the biggies, too - where would you perform? How would you promo?

[Bob Olhsson]

...So, how would live music do an end run today? What with most of the venues owned by the biggies, too - where would you perform? How would you promo?If this were obvious, a lot more would be going on!

My point is that the only places where I would expect to find real opportunity are up and coming promoters and venues that are not obvious. The days of riding on the coat-tails of what was created by a remarkably small group of people in the '60s and '70s have been over for some time.

One powerful thing we can do with the internet is to uncover and support a new generation of promoters.

[Swafford]

Non-corporate promotion has been going strong in Cincinnati for the 20 years I've lived here. We are fortunate to have a number of venues that let independent promoters put on shows, and I think this a big reason why. What's unfortunate is the crossover potential from national act fan to local act fan is not always realized. I think part of the problem here is the tendency of local bands to be inward looking instead of outward, though these days we have a good amount of bands making a bit of a national imprint, and this inward tendency marginalizes the audience.

Something I've seen Bob point out a few times in various threads is the paucity of ads promoting music in the newspaper. This was really brought home to me when I was in Cleveland recently. The Plain Dealer's weekend section had ad after ad of stuff going on, and it reminded me a bit of picking up the Village Voice when I was in HS to see what was going on in NYC. I wondered how much the lack of ads in my town was due to the lack of things going on or due to a change in the affordability of ad rates (maybe due to Gannett?).

[Bob Olhsson]

As far as I can tell the amount of music going on has been in a steady decline since the end of WW-II.

I pointed this out to one of my clients who is a librarian and he decided to check it out by pulling up some 50 year old Sunday newspapers. He told me he just about fell over when he saw how much more was going on in the greater Washington DC area during the 1950s than today. Another friend shot some of the New York footage that was used in the recent Bob Dylan documentary. He told me he had totally forgotten about what New York was like in the early '60s and seeing his footage made him realize how much those of us who grew up in the 1950s have taken for granted about the availability of great live music.

[Slipperman]

Not really.

In the old days we just had somebody else who was REALLY good do the singing and playing. It was at least as dishonest but at least the product was great.

LMFBO.

Ahh me.

The troof hertz.

XOXO

Slippy

[Logan]

I used to own a bar that brought in National and International acts as well as local acts. The drinking and driving laws killed all that. Very few bars bring in music now because if you create a buzz the cops will sit outside your bar and bust the patrons as they get in their cars and two beers can make you blow over the limit here. You can be charged and held liable for damages if a patron from your bar gets impaired and has an accident. There's no way a bar owner can generate the revenue to bring in bigger names. If you are in a university town you can still do reasonably well.
In Canada where you have to travel huge distances to get to cities of any size, the costs of touring are huge and then you often have the choice of playing for the door or not getting paid at all.
The summer feastival scene is still good but it's all of 3 months up here, and books more roots folk and trad acts.
Lots of bigger name acts end up doing single accoustic gigs in small venues and hope they sell CD's to generate the revenue. Take care Logan

[blackieC]

I'm embarassed to say that I haven't seen this flick yet as it was made by a couple of hometown boys and has had numerous local screenings, but I will make a point of seeking it out.

Sometimes I just need a good slap in the face to make me pay attention.

[Bob Olhsson]

... There's no way a bar owner can generate the revenue...My wife Ellen just pointed out there's quite a profit margin in coffee these days...

So where's this generation's Albert Grossman? it's just sitting there to do

[magicchord]

Heh heh...yeah, that's where I play out - coffee houses. Not much $ in it, though :grin:

[shikawkee]

Heh heh...yeah, that's where I play out - coffee houses. Not much $ in it, though :grin:

I bet if there was better coordination of some sort of circuit
of coffeehouses to play it could work. If the shops don't
have to do much of the work booking and coordinating and they see traffic increase they'd realize very soon that coffeehouses are the new bars and can beat liquor percentage-wise.

Wine bars are also becoming big now and are usually
more intimate venues for some performers.

What we need are mature, listening audiences.
The majors are figuring they still buy records too.

[Bob Olhsson]

Some of us may need to START coffeehouse venues that work right in order to set an example.

[shikawkee]

Some of us may need to START coffeehouse venues that work right in order to set an example.

Didn't a good many scenes and talent come
out of the venerable house party in the old days Bob?
Private parties in a sense?

[Bob Olhsson]

Most of jazz and folk developed out of rent parties in the late '40s and early '50s that evolved into clubs and coffee houses by the early '60s. The San Francisco rock scene began as rent parties.

[Swafford]

We've played with the idea of opening a co-op coffehouse/performance venue, not out of necessity so much, but more because my friend Maegdlyn's been looking at a building for her custom drapery manufacturing business and it just happens to have a great storefront and front room in a hip neighborhood and I just happen to have a PA, a commercial coffee machine in the barn and a solid reputation among local and regional bands and for killer baked goods.

While there is a good profit margin in a cup of coffee, the real profit in a coffeehouse comes from customer turnover, which is not really what you want in a performance venue. Not to many people sit and drink 4 or 5 cups of coffee like they'll drink beer in a bar or club. However, add some sodas, baked goods, etc. and you might generate enough cash flow to pay a decent performance wage and make rent.

I've thought a little about this live thing lately. And though I read about the death of live music scenes, I just don't see it. Sure, the large metropolitan areas that had thriving scenes 20 and 30 years ago don't anymore - how much is that about changes in real estate prices in cities like NY and San Fran and LA and how much is it about a shift?

After yakking at shikawkee about this when he was in Cincinnati last week, I stopped in on my old friend Lenny. Lenny was at ground zero of the Cincinnati scene in 1966 - 72 or so, before he ended up in prison. He was a roadie for Balderdash, a locally based organ trio, and knew all the movers and shakers in town during that era. I asked him how many venues - bar and clubs - they had back then for original music - local and national. Two is all he could recall, one being the somewhat famous Ludlow Garage where up and coming acts like the Allman Brothers, Captain Beefheart etc would play. How many now? Sitting here, I can think of 14 at least catering to everything from hip-hop, folk, metal, straight up rock, indie rock, rootsy stuff and a mix of all that, acts being local, regional and national. Are these places packed? A few have regular crowds, most are empty Mon - Thurs and on the weekends, they are competing for a limited fan base. When I moved here 20 years ago, there were 3 or 4, and they were mostly empty weekdays.

So here's a thought - maybe the live music scene is well and good, maybe it's just shifted to medium market cities where artists and musicians can still afford to pay rent and work their craft.

[Logan]

Well there certainly are opportunities in coffee houses for certain types of artists, your singer songwriter or small folky duo or group may find work there. Most coffee houses are in pretty built up areas where walk in trade is the main clientel, not much opportunity to to be a rock venue, the space requirements are different as almost all coffee houses I've been in are small intimate places with no room for a stage and not the wait staff to handle a larger type crowd.

Some of the bigger venues in my town occasionally have no alcohol all ages shows that seem to bring in a decent crowd, but they require a hefty cover charge and there seems to be a resistance to pay a cover for unknown acts. It's important to develop a good network if you are a starting band to get to open for some of these types of shows.

It is more and more important to be flexible and plan your gigs and tours over a long period because the gig in my mind has to be the primary way you sell your product. Depending on your geographical situation you may have to rely on coffee house type gigs, benefit type gigs, very few bar gigs and outdoor festival and self promoted bush party type gigs at other times of the year. I differ from some others here as I feel it's important to have product to sell at these gigs as the product will be your main source of income. Take care Logan

[maccool]

A few random observations.

k.d.lang has a gorgeous voice and an awesome talent, but you won't see her on prime...

If I may, a random response...

I'm a huge fan of k.d. lang, and have been since her early days with The Reclines in Edmonton. I think that she is one of the best vocal talents of the last 25 years. And not only an awesome talent, but also an awesome integrity, and a very kind and warm person. I met her once, and dropped her off at the Red Deer Greyhound station after an evening at a mutual friends house. OK, name-dropping done, let me try and make some kind of sense here in the context of the thread. I don't know k.d. but do know that she's a musician of enormous talent, and I believe that she's here for the long haul; she's 45 now, with a successful career that's 25 years young and has possibly another 25 years to run. She built her early career as a live act and attracted a loyal local fan base, made some records with a small label, and got picked up by a major. Without that major label support I'm not sure that I'd have the pleasure of listening to Hymns of the 49th Parallel, which is an absolute tour-de-force, and already (I think) a classic recording. I believe k.d. has managed her career with a view to that long haul, and is probably not too interested in "prime", which I suspect implies short-term celebrity. This woman can sing!. It's what she does, probably until she dies, and I doubt not that she would always sing for the love of it whether or not she were a successful recording artist. The fact that she is such an artist is good for me, 'cause I get to hear her. But records like Hymns... need big proper studios with big proper AE's to get done right, and that costs a lot. I don't imagine that the facilities required are any less expensive to set up and run today than they were before the advent of all these recent innovations of formats and delivery methods.

I'm not making this an argument for the status quo, I'm not sure that there is a status quo (no! not that one!), but merely wondering how any new order would cater to the long-term career ambitions of a superb musical talent like k.d. lang. Or the New London Consort. Or the Boston Symphony Orchestra. Or Billy Bragg. Or Kissing Slinky.

Enquiring minds would like to know.

[Bob Olhsson]

Just a note, "the music industry" never made people stars, fans did!

[Swafford]

On the coffeehouse thing - I would think the goal is to create a performance venue where the traditional coffeehouse fair is the basis for cashflow. Not have rock shows at your typical over lit, hard surfaced coffeehouse.

A twist to increase cashflow might be to have hours that cater to both music audiences and people on thier way to work, say 8pm - 9am. With some kind of food, you could attract the after hours drinking crowd who want to stop for some vittles before they go home and crash.

[shikawkee]

On the coffeehouse thing - I would think the goal is to create a performance venue where the traditional coffeehouse fair is the basis for cashflow. Not have rock shows at your typical over lit, hard surfaced coffeehouse.

A twist to increase cashflow might be to have hours that cater to both music audiences and people on thier way to work, say 8pm - 9am. With some kind of food, you could attract the after hours drinking crowd who want to stop for some vittles before they go home and crash.

Exactly! That's why wine bars are becoming popular; it's a mature place to hang out and nosh on the way home or after work and the bill comes to $40.00 instead of $100. for a full dinner for two. Creative coffehouses could do the same.

[Logan]

Just a note, "the music industry" never made people stars, fans did!

Truer words were never spoke!!!! That's why, coffee house wine bars, house concerts, or busking in the subway are all fine and may be part of a "business plan" to survive and thrive as a musician/ songwriter/ band but will never be enough to really make a bigger career. You need the fan buzz, the gig where lot's of folks are ecstatic to be there, where the tunes are driving the making of a memory that will put a shit eating grin on your face for years to come, where the fans can cut loose and inspire the band to greater things. We still need those gigs as well. Loud crazy gigs!

Speaking of KD Lang, she played 3 of those type of shows in my bar, in your face rockabilly to Bond songs all sung with the passion and true art, not a person in the bar was sitting, people were dancing, laughing and even crying, and they all bought her record. Her live show cooked and it moved people. The record store, remember those, was invaded for weeks by folks looking for her discs. The crowd was 18 to 80 and they loved the ecclectic nature of the stuff (another clue for success and longevity).

At the same the woman was a basket case herself due to the fact that she had been told that the label wanted changes in her band, it was a huge crisis for her, a betrayal of comrades. That showed me it was important to have control over that sort of stuff and was the genisis of my thinking about having control of producing and financing of projects.

So we need to work together to help each other to create lots of different type of gigs, artists in a network to find and create gigs, 'cause believe me if live music were in vogue again there would be all sorts of work for everyone.

It used to piss me off when other bar owners were competive and exclusive about music, owners would try to restrict popular bands from playing, in what they regarded as, the competitons venue. I used to tell these guys they were idiots that we should all work together to provide as many great shows as possible. Build a culture of people caring about and going out to see music and all the seats will be full, except when the fans are dancing. Take care Logan

[Bob Olhsson]

Truer words were never spoke!!!! That's why, coffee house wine bars, house concerts, or busking in the subway are all fine and may be part of a "business plan" to survive and thrive as a musician/ songwriter/ band but will never be enough to really make a bigger career. ...It was more than enough for most of the major musical stars of the 1920s through the 1970s.

[shikawkee]

Why not start a scene in a smaller coffee bar-like venue before breaking out and moving on to larger venues? If you can get a crowd religiously to your smaller gigs the word will pass on.

[Bob Olhsson]

When somebody gets something happening, word travels fast and others try the same thing in their cities. The next step is artists start touring these new venues. I've watched this happen several times. It only took two or three years to build a whole national "scene" out of nothing.

What it requires is creativity in every detail. Yes the music needs to be good but so do all of the other elements of the show. The setting is too intimate to get away with posing.

[OzNimbus]

Coming from the Metal end of the spectrum, file me under "could care less." Radio has never touched music that I like, and probably never will. If the majors want to market crap, let them. Kids who want something more will go out of thier way to find it. Go look up Metallica's early history if you need proof.
By definition, Metal is outsider music. Slayer's "Christ Illusion" debuted internationally in the top 10 album charts & radio never played it. Ever. In the 80's Iron Maiden sold out SEVEN shows in a row at Madison Square Garden. And radio never played the album they were supporting. Ever. Throw your radio in the garbage. That's where it belongs. You won't miss much.

I think the movie is somewhat alarmist. Really, every generation has thier brain-dead teenage girls. In the 80's, they bought Bananarama & Wham! The 90's, New Kids on the Block & Milli Vanilli (both groups lip synchers). As the song says, "So fucking what?" Chances are, the people who bought those records never heard of Bob Dylan either. Personally, I can't stand Bob Dylan, but that's just me :)


You want to see a thriving music scene, go to the Wacken Festival in Germany.
-0z-

[lebouche]

Why not start a scene in a smaller coffee bar-like venue before breaking out and moving on to larger venues? If you can get a crowd religiously to your smaller gigs the word will pass on.

I thought Ben Harper started out in coffee houses?? Just remember hearing that..

[D.Michaels]

I've been reading this thread and I am compelled to comment. Being in my mid 40s now, I can remember that first MTV day. Trever Horn singing "Video Killed the Radio Star" how prophetic.

It is very sad that popular music, or I should say music that makes it to the masses is so controlled by corporations, corporations that want to survive like any other living thing (and I use that term loosly), and there survival is based on dollars. And they will do what ever it takes to get as many dollars as possible.

That said, I think that record companies have seen their day and now with the internet I am hoping to see the playing field leveled a bit. Hell I'm working on a website myself to promote my own music and that of some of the people I am working with now. I know this is by no means a local trend. Just go to mySpace and see how many people are touting themselves as artists. Sure not all are the cream of the crop, but at least their is a forum (the net as a whole, not just mySpace) now where artists can be heard without relying on the majors.

When I was younger and in persuit of my own "deal" I would have killed to have something like the internet at my disposal. Being a web designer myself I may put more emphasis on the net than others, but I really believe, and I hope I'm right, that we will see more great music making it's way to the public ear then ever b4. Hell we already have, Check out www.rehearsals.com I think this site represents (hopefuly) what I am talking about here.

Karma is a bitch and she's pissed as hell. Sure many artists have imploded and ruined their own careers, but the big labels have raped and pileaged long enough, and now that bitch is knocking on their doors. I am looking forward to a shift in power. A shift towards better music getting heard and artists getting more of what they deserve.

What other industry is their where you can pour your soul into something for years, work your ass off perfecting it and when its done, it belongs to someone else. That has happened way to much in this business (IMHO).

I know a lot of folks here make a living off of the big labels, so I mean no disrespect, however, that's my rant and I'm sticking to it.

[shikawkee]

At least the major labels pay (eventually).
Try getting money from an indie label.
Indie's are one of the biggest scams in the industry.
Get rich by not paying artists then sell out to a major....

I've seen it many, many times I'm afraid.
Caveat emptor.

[Bob Olhsson]

Beware that we're in the midst of a battle over the distribution of music. While this might be a good thing if the DiMA members were offering performers and composers more than what RIAA members pay but in fact they are offering less and demanding that artists surrender their right to make an exclusive distribution deal.

There's nobody in the music business who hasn't been told "no" by record labels more than they've been told "yes." This makes labels an easy target but replacing labels with compulsary licensing of recordings is a giant step back to the days when artists got nothing at all.