got a budget to splurge...help

[recall]

Hi Guys,

I am pricing up a budget and the project I am working on has suggested I augment my equipment with some extra pieces to record with rather than hire a studio. This is cool for me as it is how I prefer to work, plus I get to keep the gear but as ever there are so many options.

My main sounds are going to be acoustic/fairly quiet pfinger picked acoustic guitar/banjo/ukelele etc.
As well as fairly quiet singing voices.

There will also be small choral and strings (cello,viola,violin etc small ensembles).

Up til now I have been using a 002R with TfPro2, Octopre and various cheap mics like oktava red 5, samson. I get a decent sound from these but always find that the shortcomings of the mic show up with this kind of material as I have to drive them quite hard to get decent level (which then increases noise).

I think I have about £2-3000 to spend.

I am going to upgrade my monitors to ADAM A7'S and was wanting to get some nice mics and a preamp which will preserve the fidelity of the source.

was thinking of the focusrite isa 428, and a couple of DPA 4091 mics.
And some quality cables and mic stands. Also would like to get a nice LDC for vocals.

I would like to get a few things which I could augment my setup with and provide some options for miking different sources.

I have been looking at akg 414's and have used them in the past briefly and quite like them, maybe a pair of those would give me more options of polar patterns than the dpa's

Ideally I would like a multi channel strip with low noise and decent clean gain to drive some old reslo ribbons and beyer m160's
I have no particular allegiance to focusrite and would be open to other suggestions....thanks as ever

[otek]

Ok, issuing a disclaimer here.


All of the below is PROVIDING you have done all you can to improve your room.

For acoustic recording in particular, you need a great sounding room, or you're fucked no matter what kind of gear you buy.



























Have you done what you can about the room?






































Acoustic treatment based on scientific measurements by a qualified acoustician?






























Are you sure? Because none of that other shit is gonna be worth fuck-all if you haven't.








































Promise you have given serious thought to the room?





































Ok then. Hmmm, let's see:


ADAM A7's - £550

Focusrite ISA 428 - £1200

2x DPA 4091 - £600

= £2350

You then have £650 to spend on an LDC. A Brauner Phantom AE can be had for around £625, and that's an excellent mic.

You should really consider a couple of heavy boom stands with good extension for acoustic recording. Budget a little more for stands and other accessories than you may think - that tab will run away from you very quickly in my experience.

[maccool]

For acoustic recording in particular, you need a great sounding room, or you're fucked no matter what kind of gear you buy.

Have you done what you can about the room?

Acoustic treatment based on scientific measurements by a qualified acoustician?

Are you sure? Because none of that other shit is gonna be worth fuck-all if you haven't.

Promise you have given serious thought to the room?


What the Becuppèd One said about the room!

I reckon I'm doing just about what you want to do, and kinda went about things the same way. Trying to figure out what (amongst the plethora of gear available) might be an acceptable compromise of quality vs. cost and capable of excellent results is tricky to say the least.

I had a couple of decent mic's and a 002R to begin with, and eventually went with an ISA428+Digital Option (http://www.dv247.com/invt/7730/) (£1600). As Otek said, a couple of heavy boom stands are very nice to have, especially for micing seated musicians. I got a pair of K&M stands (http://www.studiospares.com/pd_408501_KandM%20ST212%20HDY%20MIC%20STD2pt.htm) from Studiospares (£115 each). As you can see, I'm the same ballpark as yourself.

What I didn't do was treat my room first. BIG MISTAKE!

The better the gear, the worse the poor room sounds. For recording acoustic guitar, the coupling of the room's axial modes with the soundboard of the guitar can cause it to honk so badly it'll scare you! It scared me! You MUST, at least, control the axial modes, even if you were thinking of only close-micing a guitar. I still have to build some broadband absorption to deal with this, and until then all this nice gear is kind of redundant. If you want to use any recording technique where the sound of the room itself plays a significant role, such as with choirs or ensembles, or using omni- or fig.8 mic's, you must deal with the whole room first.

[recall]

Otek,

Sure I agree with all that has been said re: sound proofing. I haven't had scientific advice, but the sound we are getting from there is working, it is your archetypal victorian high ceilinged back room of a house and I must say we've got some nice tones from there already.

I was thinking about heavy stands, I figure I will get a couple and 4/5 decent xlr cables to take care of the main sound sources.

I don't plan on mixing in this room.

I have also been looking at the DAV-BG2 4way pre and it looks more appealing to me than the focusrite....just a hunch I have.

I have been looking at the soundelux u195 as well, and figure I may just buy some sdc's with my own money to augment the setup.

Will also try and construct some gobos and additional sound proofing before the main work commences.

Cheers as ever

[recall]

Also,

I know the Rode sdc's are cheap but are they "good" for general use. I am gonig to have to be slightly more cautious and would rather spend the main money on a classy pre and mic and then augment with half -decent equipment which i can upgrade from in the future.

[maccool]

recall,

what are the dimensions of the room?

And just to be clear about this, we're not talking sound-proofing here, but sound-control. If this is a four-square room in a house, you will need some treatment to use it for making good recordings. Physics is physics.

[recall]

recall,

what are the dimensions of the room?

And just to be clear about this, we're not talking sound-proofing here, but sound-control. If this is a four-square room in a house, you will need some treatment to use it for making good recordings. Physics is physics.

I agree, but there comes a point where the room is "the sound", I know it is not a perfect room and some sound control will be done but I am happy with the sound we are getting from it.

It is important of course, but I always go with thinking of some of my favourite recordings....Alan Lomax stuff, Bert Jansch, some of the new Liars stuff...none of these were recorded in traditional setups and I prefer this. So while I take the points mentioned and will act on them to some degree, If I am happy so far I don't see the need to make too many changes.

[maccool]

...there comes a point where the room is "the sound", I know it is not a perfect room and some sound control will be done but I am happy with the sound we are getting from it.

Fair enough. Good luck with it.

[otek]

I agree, but there comes a point where the room is "the sound", I know it is not a perfect room and some sound control will be done but I am happy with the sound we are getting from it.....

.....traditional setups....


Mind you, I was not talking about sound proofing (even though that would be important as well) so much as sound control, just like Maccool said.

Nor was I talking about a "traditional setup" in the sense of a "standard studio construction" - I have the utmost respect for the work of people like Daniel Lanois and Rick Rubin, who have done great records in "ordinary" spaces - or rather, spaces originally intended for something else.

Speaking from my own personal point of view, I've had some of my most interesting and rewarding recording experiences in non-studio rooms - kitchens, hallways, living rooms. I've recorded in churches, a movie theater, an old cotton mill, and even outdoors.

The main thing is to use the room to your advantage.

Some rooms are inherently terrible and should be avoided, some have a natural beauty about them. I mainly look for uneven surfaces, nooks and crannies, high ceilings. My suggestion to you is to at least build a few large baffles, perhaps with both reflective and absorptive sides.

Finally, if you get the DPAs (even though they are the budget models), you will grit your teeth every time you hook up those Rode SDC's. The DPA's have a superior high end with out all that fizz. If you want to remain at least close to that general price bracket, I would recommend a pair of AKG C391's, which have a much nicer high end IMHO. They're around £180 or so in the UK, and feature interchangeable capsules.


Cheers,

otek

[recall]

No probs Otek,

I think I got my terminology a little mixed. Baffles are a good idea and I will try to get some sorted. I have a couple of months before I get to the project so I should have time to sort it all out.

I will take a look at the AKG's.

Thanks again for the help it is much appreciated

[maccool]

...Baffles are a good idea and I will try to get some sorted.

recall,

again, what Otek said, but I'd like to reinforce what I said before about the acoustic coupling of the room with the instrument. You very likely have flat parallel surfaces with the floor and the ceiling (if not, disregard!). What I'm talking about is what happens when an acoustic guitar is being played and a resonance occurs because the distance between the soundboard and wall, ceiling, or floor is a whole-number subdivision of the wavelength being produced by the soundboard. And in my case, when I play seated, the distances from guitar to floor and guitar to ceiling are both subdivisions of A. The lowest note of A I can play on the guitar is 440HZ, but due to the room's vertical dimension, my guitars honk at A220, and to a lesser extent at multiples thereof. Small bodied guitars are less prone to this, but my OOO-28 is useless in here! If I stand instead of sit, the problem shifts to somewhere around D. Gobos will work in the lateral plane, as can moving around to find a sweet spot, but you're kinda stuck in the vertical plane, so you might want to consider some kind of broadband absorber above the recording position. In other words, a cloud.

One more observation about this; you may not be aware of the problem until you record with good mic's. The ear-brain system, a psycho-acoustical system, can be very forgiving, and will probably not be totally separated from other parts of the brain which which likes things; it's a beautiful, complex system which may filter the bits you don't like. But that same system is capable of learning. What the mic's hear won't be what you hear, and if the aforementioned resonances are there, the mic's will hear them, then you will hear them on playback, and continue to hear them in the room where you didn't previously (if indeed you didn't).

I'm not trying to be clever here recall, just trying to give you a heads-up from my own experience.

[recall]

All good advice Macool,
Great info to know, I will not attempt to suggest I am "up" on all this stuff, but I have some time to read up on it and try to make some sensible/practicable/reasonable options.

Thanks again

Iwan

[maccool]

...I would recommend a pair of AKG C391's

Otek,

would you care to comment on the CK94 figure-8 capsule?

Sorry to hi-jack your thread Iwan.

[otek]

Otek,

would you care to comment on the CK94 figure-8 capsule?


Not really, I haven't tried it. :D

About all I know is it's more than twice the price of any of the other capsules. Still worth it if you consider that the closest contender probably is several hundred dollars more.

The C391B is simply the SE300B transformerless powering module combined with a cardioid capsule and sold as a "bundle". It doesn't take quite as much SPL as the Shure SM-81 (also in the same price bracket in the US, but much more expensive in the UK), but has a very nice high end compared to the "Chinese Mob" and the Rode NT-5.


Cheers,

otek