Live Jazz Recording / Mix

[conejito]

Hi, folks! On occasion, I record my friend's jazz band with his gear, then bring the tracks home and do some quick mixes. Here's one of them, if you have the broadband to download the HUGE 15 MB file.

This is a Woody Shaw tune called Blues for Wood - I believe it was written for Woody's son Woody, Jr.

Woody Shaw's "Blues for Wood" as performed by CJP (http://www.420recordsgroup.com/mp3/CJP/Blues_for_Wood.mp3)

If there are any jazz recording aficionados out there, I'd be happy to accept some serious criticism on this recording, even though it's an MP3.

[Thud]

Nice work. Probably 50-60% of what I mix involves jazz or acoustic hybrid kinds of music. It is always rewarding, but has a whole different set of issues. You obviously have an understanding of the music (probably the most important thing IMHO).

I mix a lot of big bands and the piano is always a key issue (for recording as well as FOH). If the piano is right next to the drums, which it often is, the impulse is to close mic the piano with the lid down to get as much isolation as possible. This is just as true for getting enough gain for FOH. However, what you can end up with is an instrument that sounds artificially tacked on to the music. The same can be true for recording a bass direct.

One band I work with insisted on the drum kit almost touching the end of the piano, with the bass player standing in the curve of the piano. Tight! They also insisted on having the lid up. The bass player likes to set his glasses and other goodies inside the piano. What a pleasure... I finally trained them, but it was a battle until they realized that I could give them a great monitor mix that enabled them to hear even better than before.

Did you record the drums with a kick and 2 overheads? It might be nice to get something closer to the hi-hat and snare to capture more of the rhythmic propellant.

As for the horns, I always try to approach them like a section rather than individuals, especially on the head of the tune. If the horns are panned too severely, the cohesion of the chord voicings can get spread a bit too far.

Although I'm not a 2 mics out front kind of purist, I do believe that the effect of the band "sounding" like one big instrument is something to shoot for. If you think of the sound of a giant pipe organ, you might get the idea. All those different voices and octaves coming at you as one big sound.

I'd love to hear some more of this group or any other that you have recorded. I'll dig up some stuff I've done and post it as well.

Cheers,
thud

[conejito]

Thanks for listening and making comments, Thud. Your feedback is great, and very appreciated.

Did you record the drums with a kick and 2 overheads? It might be nice to get something closer to the hi-hat and snare to capture more of the rhythmic propellant.
I actually had a snare mic and two rack mics in addition to the OHs and kick. I didn't want to push the snare up too far, but you're right - it's not detailed enough and too distant-sounding. Luckily, I can fix that with another mix.

As for the horns, I always try to approach them like a section rather than individuals, especially on the head of the tune. If the horns are panned too severely, the cohesion of the chord voicings can get spread a bit too far.
This is really great stuff! I think you're right - I have them panned to wide, and it's especially obvious on the head. I'm going to try panning then a lot closer together now. Brilliant!

One thing I wonder about is if I have the piano panned too wide. See, I really like that sound, but it's kind of unrealistic. I mean that would have to be one huge piano to take up that much of the soundscape on a real stage!

But, ultimately, I end up foregoing the realism for the sound - a good grand piano played by the right pianist just sounds amazing when miked in stereo and panned wide.

I'd love to hear some more of this group or any other that you have recorded. I'll dig up some stuff I've done and post it as well.
I'll probably be mixing some more stuff by these guys later tonight, so I'll post something else later.

I'd really like to hear some of the stuff you've recorded if you have time to post it. Thanks again, Thud.

[conejito]

Here's a new mix of the song, with Thud's suggestions implemented:

Blues for Wood, performed by CJP (http://www.420recordsgroup.com/mp3/CJP/Blues_for_Wood-Mix02.mp3)

I think it's a big improvement. Thanks, Thud.

Oh, BTW, it's still a HUGE 15 MB file!

As you listen, note the way the drummer drives the tune, increasing the tempo and filling more as the soloists tend to get a little sleepy. It's a nice effect. They're a solid band.

[saxplayerz]

The second mix sounds better. Tenor dude has some nice lines. But the Bb splats and palm key foolishness is annoying.

[conejito]

Here's another Woody Shaw tune:

"In a Capricornian Way" (http://www.420recordsgroup.com/mp3/CJP/InACapricornianWay-Mix01.mp3)

[Watershed]

Trumpet seemed a little low in the ensembles to me.

Nice tones. Well done.

[dwoz]

Is everyone missing how out-of-place the bass is in that first mix? I'll listen to the 2nd in a few minutes.

Is the guitarist sitting out for the entire duration except for his solo?

lots more...be back soon.

dwoz

[conejito]

Is everyone missing how out-of-place the bass is in that first mix? I'll listen to the 2nd in a few minutes.
Let me know if you think it sounds better in the second mix. I had some serious issues with the bass tracks. For some unexplained reason, the DI track was totally distorted, but it had a lot of good information on it, so I had to make due with a heavy-handed low pass EQ. Not how I would've liked to have done it.

Is the guitarist sitting out for the entire duration except for his solo?

Yeah, the guitarist tends to let the pianist do most of the comping. Occasionally, they'll switch off, or play together, but usually it's the pianist doing the comping.

In the band's defense, this wasn't one of there better shows. They seemed tired, and the trumpet player had a back injury. But they still ploughed through the material like pros.

[Thud]

Yeah, man. Sounds good. Those small changes make all the difference. You are on the money with the drums.

Yeah maybe more trumpet. Or take the bone down a bit.

Cheers,
thud

[dwoz]

Here's a new mix of the song, with Thud's suggestions implemented:

Oh, BTW, it's still a HUGE 15 MB file!


15mb? that's just a snack!:grin: :Coolio: :grin:


dwoz

[dwoz]

any distortion and grunge on the bass isn't bothering me. He could be Stinkfingers MacSnotty and I wouldn't be bent.

I think my issue with the bass is that the player isn't joining in with all the reindeer games that the drums and keys are playing.

So he needs to be sent to the doghouse.


I could suffer some far more extreme dynamic excursion from the drums, if it was there in the tracks. I'd almost suggest putting an upward expander on the snare. Almost.

More low-side mic on the piano if ya got it.

Horn balance is good.

Mix needs more sense of "height". I can hear its a big room...but it feels like a low ceiling.

Just a nitpick.

Thank you!!!!

dwoz

[conejito]

Thanks, Dwoz, for your input.

On the piano, I totally agree. The piano in these sessions was already miked by someone else when I arrived, and I just went with the experiment. In the future, I'm going to demand my regular stereo placement, which more clearly differentiates between the low strings and the high strings.

I'd like to talk more about how to get the "height" of the room in the mix. It was indeed a theater with a high ceiling. We had one audience mic, but no other ambient mics.

I used the audience mic throughout the mix(es), as it seemed to lend a very nice natural ambience, which required no artificial reverb treatment at all.

Now, how do I go for that "height" in the mix? How do I represent the additional "air" in the room?

Please keep in mind that I'm mixing totally ITB here. This is all digital.

Thanks!

[dwoz]

I'd like to talk more about how to get the "height" of the room in the mix. It was indeed a theater with a high ceiling. We had one audience mic, but no other ambient mics.

I used the audience mic throughout the mix(es), as it seemed to lend a very nice natural ambience, which required no artificial reverb treatment at all.

Now, how do I go for that "height" in the mix? How do I represent the additional "air" in the room?

Please keep in mind that I'm mixing totally ITB here. This is all digital.

Thanks!

I'm going to have to give this one some thought, and do some comparative listening. I know exactly what I mean when I say it needs "height", but I don't yet know quite exactly how to put it into pragmatic actionable terms.

I can't be sure, but the two most likely tools to capture it are the up front stereo pair (if you've got 'em), and the piano mics. Often you get a lot of interaction inside the piano: sympathetic string vibrations; just plain bounce off the lid, etc., and while it seems at the time to be a distracting liability, in the mix it injects a frightening amount of spatial perspective.

of course, sometimes it just skeasty nonsense, but I think that's what's perhaps missing here.

I'll get back to you shortly.

dwoz

[conejito]

Thanks in part to what dwoz said above, I am hoping to introduce a stereo pair of ambient mics into the next recording equation. I think it will provide the "glue" I'm seeking to make these mixes really gel.

I've done several mixes of tunes from this same show since i last posted in this thread. Here's my most recent. I think I'm really getting close on this one:

Zoltan - Mix 01 (http://www.420recordsgroup.com/mp3/CJP/Zoltan-Mix01.mp3)

Again, any feedback is welcome! Many thanks to everyone who has commented so far. I feel like I'm really starting to get this, and I've only been mixing jazz for about a year. It's a completely different ballgame than rock and pop, that's for sure!