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rolling_beat
February 5th, 2014, 08:09 PM
Yes i'm talking about Brauer multibuss mixing technique.

Ok,
for some reason i suspect this ain't the place where this tecnique is loved.
Infact i couldn't find much, searching in the forum.

Anyways, i've never used this kind of technique, but a recent interview of an engineer talking about his way of doing the multibuss thing, made me curious about it.

Now, before i go any deeper into details: has anyone here used multibuss mixing ?
On consoles ? ITB ?

Do you find it useful, and why?


Discuss

otek
February 5th, 2014, 08:14 PM
You mean, as in routing instrument "groups" to busses and compressing them collectively?

I normally do it if there's a certain group of instruments that I want to behave as one unit, for example a backing vocal group, quadrupled guitar beds, or whatever.


otek

Crtjstr
February 5th, 2014, 08:16 PM
You mean, as in routing instrument "groups" to busses and compressing them collectively?

I normally do it if there's a certain group of instruments that I want to behave as one unit, for example a backing vocal group, quadrupled guitar beds, or whatever.


otek

Isn't that normal?

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

rolling_beat
February 5th, 2014, 08:19 PM
You mean, as in routing instrument "groups" to busses and compressing them collectively?

I normally do it if there's a certain group of instruments that I want to behave as one unit, for example a backing vocal group, quadrupled guitar beds, or whatever.


otek

Yeah i do this all the time too.

But the specific technique, consists in 4 busses on the SSL 9000 desk.
Basically (without going too far) he compresses and EQs 4 stems out of the console, and sums them on the master fader.

So are we basically multibuss mixing ?

Bob Olhsson
February 5th, 2014, 08:27 PM
To me, it's basically emulating 4 or 8 track. On some consoles using sub-bussing yields much cleaner sound than summing everything at one go.

rolling_beat
February 5th, 2014, 08:35 PM
On some consoles using sub-bussing yields much cleaner sound than summing everything at one go.

This is one of the things i'm curious about.

The engineer who released the interview i was talking about, does the thing a bit different from Brauer.

Brauer basically splits things on the 4 SSL 9000 busses, and uses the bus inserts to go into compressors and EQs.
Then the busses are summed into the master bus, and sometimes compressed with the SSL master compressor.

The engineer in the interview does not sum the busses with the master bus, because he says that gives you less clarity and punch.
Instead, after the outboard processing, he goes with the 5 stems (he uses the master bus as an additional stem) into pro tools and does the final sum digitally.
Finally he goes with this signal into a final compressor and/or EQ, and prints that.

Yes, he's doing DA and AD.

Knastratt
February 5th, 2014, 09:12 PM
Sounds like SOP to me.

weedywet
February 5th, 2014, 09:27 PM
8 or 10 extra unnecessary A-D-A sounds daft to me.

Michael Braier's big difference is his use of different eq and compressor brands in each sub that have specific sounds and use to him.

I might sometimes compress a subgroup but certainly not all the time.
I don't always use subgroups at all.
I'm more likely to do it when handed a track with 50 tracks of guitars etc.

rolling_beat
February 5th, 2014, 09:31 PM
8 or 10 extra unnecessary A-D-A sounds daft to me.

To me too. He just says that the benefis are worth it.



Michael Braier's big difference is his use of different eq and compressor brands in each sub that have specific sounds and use to him.

This engineer is doing almost the same thing: different gear, but same approach.



I'm more likely to do it when handed a track with 50 tracks of guitars etc.

One of his points is that with this technique, mixing busy songs it's easier and faster.

otek
February 5th, 2014, 10:30 PM
I don't always use subgroups at all.

Me neither. I typically would use one for drums. Looking at my last doze mix sessions, I'm averaging about two or three total (other than drums, typically a guitar bed, or backing vocals).


otek

Bob Olhsson
February 5th, 2014, 10:58 PM
If a console only uses a single active combining network, the summing noise increases each time you add an input.

Combining fewer tracks and then combining the combined tracks can be lots quieter especially if there are any grounding or RFI problems. Ideally, you never want to combine more than four inputs and then combine four of those groups. API does groups of eight and lots of consoles do lots more than that.

What's a hoot is that digital actually does summing lots better than analog. Where it can fall down is in how the gain buildup gets handled and the loss of noise and distortion which actually helps preserve audible information.

And of course, once lost, just adding noise can't bring it back.

rolling_beat
February 5th, 2014, 11:17 PM
If a console only uses a single active combining network, the summing noise increases each time you add an input.

Combining fewer tracks and then combining the combined tracks can be lots quieter especially if there are any grounding or RFI problems. Ideally, you never want to combine more than four inputs and then combine four of those groups. API does groups of eight and lots of consoles do lots more than that.

I never thought about this!
That's very enlightening, thank you.

Do you know where to find out these specification about consoles ? Now i'm curious :)



What's a hoot is that digital actually does summing lots better than analog. Where it can fall down is in how the gain buildup gets handled and the loss of noise and distortion which actually helps preserve audible information.

And of course, once lost, just adding noise can't bring it back.

If i understood you well (language barrier), you're basically saying that digital sums without (or with little) noise and distortion: these two elements help to preserve audible information.

Kind of analog dither :rofl:

Would it be correct to say that analog summing is less perfect than digital one, so it can actually deliver more information ?

weedywet
February 5th, 2014, 11:27 PM
To me too. He just says that the benefis are worth it.

...


One of his points is that with this technique, mixing busy songs it's easier and faster.

the only benefit I can see is that if he's archiving the stems in Pro Tools, he can go back and rebalance them later for recalls and changes.
as long as the internal balance in the stems doesn't have to be changes.

rolling_beat
February 5th, 2014, 11:31 PM
the only benefit I can see is that if he's archiving the stems in Pro Tools, he can go back and rebalance them later for recalls and changes.
as long as the internal balance in the stems doesn't have to be changes.

Yes, indeed.

Well he mentions this in the interview.

I'm skeptical too about all this A-D-A conversions, but maybe it's true that the SSL 9000 master bus doesn't do an excellent job in summing the 4 busses.

A solution that came to my mind is using a summing box to do the job...kind of akward where you're in front a console, that's supposed to sum things....:loco:
But may work for that particoular setup.:otek:

Bob Olhsson
February 6th, 2014, 01:18 AM
Sometimes the block diagrams are in the manual but not very often since tubes went away. I understand from a couple old timers that Columbia Records used to have them on the wall in the control rooms! Wally Heider told me about the groups of four when he explained the deMideo consoles to me.

globule_655
February 6th, 2014, 05:58 PM
There are some docs at classicapi.com one can download. Block diagrams of some API consoles EQs etc if you're interested. I might still have the full schematic of the neve VR legend somewhere too (far from the best sounding console in the world though)

Envoyé de mon U9200 en utilisant Tapatalk

rolling_beat
February 7th, 2014, 12:50 AM
There are some docs at classicapi.com one can download. Block diagrams of some API consoles EQs etc if you're interested. I might still have the full schematic of the neve VR legend somewhere too (far from the best sounding console in the world though)

Envoyé de mon U9200 en utilisant Tapatalk

Thank you, i'll have a look....
I should have the block diagram of the SSL 4000 and maybe also of the Neve VR legend.
The latter, is not the best sounding console on earth, but it is certanly not bad, expecially compared to a 4000 ! (i'm waiting for weedy's comments :rofl: )

DPower
February 7th, 2014, 01:47 AM
Thank you, i'll have a look....
I should have the block diagram of the SSL 4000 and maybe also of the Neve VR legend.
The latter, is not the best sounding console on earth, but it is certanly not bad, expecially compared to a 4000 ! (i'm waiting for weedy's comments :rofl: )

Dear god man... Run while you still can!