Something I've noticed...

[Nigelforsythe]

I don't know if this is a very common problem with music education but I have noticed something specifically with an audio / music school in my hometown....

I have not heard a single mix that I've enjoyed coming from any of their students. They're running a full HD system with a nice room so there is so much potential for a great sounding recording. I know it boils down to who's teaching the course and what kind of information is being fed to the students.

I'm not saying I'm any better than said students at the moment but I feel like it's way more worth my time to invest in decent equiptment while I'm working a shitty job and gradually learn from reading about recording in magazines and books, asking people from forums such as this one why my mixes sound like crap, and then practicing hands on....Rather than paying someone to tell me how I should be doing things. Thankyou internet for having so much information for me.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I've been working graveyard shifts at 7-Eleven and it's making me crazy.

[Chris Lambrechts]

In my very humble opinion ...

- you cannot learn this craft by reading about it ... you can learn some stuff ABOUT it but you cannot learn the craft.

The ONLY way is practical putting to use of what you know - or think you know.

Audio schools serve their purpose in learning ABOUT the craft. Wether good or bad things is something you will hopefully be able to filter out yourself at some point.

Can you do it all on yourself ? I don't know ... I bet there are some people out there who became good at this craft by just doing it all themselves. Most people I know however have had some form of assistance during their learning years. Wether that's from going to an audio school ... or by means of an internship ... or by reading encyclopedias about it or a combination of all those things ... whatever. You gain information by studying / watching / assisting / listening but above all by DOING it imho. Over and over again .... and in the end ... again imvho ... you actually LEARN the most from exactly THAT ... practical use of your knowledge.


Chris

[Brendo]

The ratio of chaff:wheat is about 10 to 1... so 1 in 10 students doesnt suck. Out of 60 at the start of my first year, about 6 were up to scratch at the end of second year, I was one of them. All 6 of us then were hired to teach the first year practical classes last year.

Which school are you referring to?

I can say, as top of my class in 2005, that a lot of the stuff in the course is stuff i could have learnt myself, but I would have been picking it up in bits and pieces, dribs and drabs... I certainly wouldn't be as good or know as much as i do now had I not done 2 years of the course and worked there for a year.

A good course is structured such that you learn the bare essentials first and then build on those ideas in such a way that your skills will transfer to any studio, to any situation.

We taught basic console signal flow first, then more advanced signal flow with normalling and patchbays etc, then insert/dynamics effects, then time based effects, then DAW operation... in about that order.

Whereas from what I've heard from few people, a Similar Audio Educator apparently throws the kids straight into PT editing, and they don't learn basic fucking signal flow until half a year later... etc.

You're quite right in saying that it depends on the course content and who's teaching it, but it also depends on the course structure.

[Nigelforsythe]

The School is Selkirk College. It's not very well known as far as i know. They don't offer an engineering program unless you pass a first year general music study. Then you choose your elective in the 2nd year. I think the problem with this is you probably get only a few people who are actually interested in the recording process and a bunch of people who aren't sure they want to record but choose it as their elective because they need to choose something in order to get their diploma.

I know that being taught with someone there to coach you is one of the best ways to learn anything. I know there's no possible way that I could teach myself everything there is to know about recording.

I wonder if there's a school in BC that offers just the practical courses. I would like to go to a school and learn about signal flow, patchbays, microphone technique... That's the kind of stuff that I have a hard time understanding from just reading about it.

[HOOK]

As a teacher I can not "learn" you shit, you have to do it by yourself!
You have to do all the work yourself, all I can do as a teacher is to guide you; That is my job!
Pedagog means person who walkes with you.

If your fellow students suck, it´s because they are students and they are students because they suck! :Razz:
( Suck = dont have enough experience and knowledge to do as good a job as a pro = Learning!!!)

You are in school to be taught about the instrument (recording); The actual playing and practice you have to do yourself.
AE is a musical rather than technical craft (JMNSHO:Twisted: )
and therefore I think it´s good that your school don't offer an engineering program unless you pass a first year general music study. Make that two years BTW!!! 0.2 $


Regarding decent equiptment :
The brush don´t make the painter!
But a good brush in the hands of a good painter is magical!!:Wink:

HOOK

[malice]

This mixing thing is kinda weird anyway. You definitly cannot learn the craft in schools. If you are meant to do the gig, schools might help you understand the 5 percent technical shit you won't have the patience to learn later, but that's about it.

It's a game were you need tremendous experience combined with a true gift about "getting it" and then a fair amount of artistic mojo, then a fair amount of luck and probably a very understanding familly.

Then you're finally readdy to mix anything, and your hearing is getting old because you worked to much and to loud and you're fucked.

THIS GIG FUCKING SUCKS DONKEY'S, BETTER LEARN PLUMBERY !

I warned you

malice

[Nigelforsythe]

Well it's funny that you bring up plumbery actually!

I'm not actually attending or planning on attending any school for recording. It's just a hobby of mine that I got into when I saw an mbox for sale in the paper. I enjoy helping people make music and am proud of the final products I have been creating.

For the time being it's going to stay a hobby. But who knows what life will bring, I'm only 20 years old and alot of decisions have yet to be made. One day I might deside to pursue it as more than a hobby.


Back to the plumbery thing....

I'm actually going into the trades as soon as possible. I'm on the waiting list for an electrical pre apprenticeship program. The money's good, the work seems interesting enough and there's lots of demand.

[malice]

Back to the plumbery thing....

I'm actually going into the trades as soon as possible. I'm on the waiting list for an electrical pre apprenticeship program. The money's good, the work seems interesting enough and there's lots of demand.

Oh, yeah, believe me, I'm not kidding.

you thought I was kidding ?

People needs more plumbery than mixes on Neve desks.

for real.

malice

[Goes211]

People need more plumbery than mixes on Neve desks.

for real.

malice

My plumber also charges just about as much as a Neve desk mix for almost ANY fucking job he does at my place.

[Chris Lambrechts]

My plumber also charges just about as much as a Neve desk mix for almost ANY fucking job he does at my place.



Ain't that the truth ...


Chris

[otek]

My plumber also charges just about as much as a Neve desk mix for almost ANY fucking job he does at my place.


Yep.


And no one questions him, or the cable guy, on their hourly rates.

[Brendo]

This mixing thing is kinda weird anyway. You definitly cannot learn the craft in schools. If you are meant to do the gig, schools might help you understand the 5 percent technical shit you won't have the patience to learn later, but that's about it.

Yeah - but if you're at an audio school, you have two or three years to churn out as many mixes of ferociously soul-destroying shitness as you have to before you start to get the hang of it - you get a LOT of practice, and guidance on WHY they're so awful, and pointers on what you could try differently next time etc... all outside of the public eye.

I'd hate to know how some of my earliest mixes from first year would go commercially...

[CaptainHook]

Out of 60 at the start of my first year, about 6 were up to scratch at the end of second year, I was one of them. All 6 of us then were hired to teach the first year practical classes last year.

That's partly the reason i quit my course after 4 weeks..
Everyone that taught at the place, was a former student.
Might not be the case at your place, but by the end of the year
after quitting and going at it on my own, i had more experience
and knowledge both practical and theory-wise than the 3rd year
students.

Then because of that experience, and some more luck in
other areas of my life i got to meet and work with some
REALLY experienced people. And so on and so forth..
It's like a snow-ball.. it kinda gets on a roll and the type of
people you meet and work with grows exponentially..

I think institutional education works really well for some,
and not at all for others. I'm one of the others.

[weedywet]

In my very humble opinion ...

- you cannot learn this craft by reading about it ... you can learn some stuff ABOUT it but you cannot learn the craft.

The ONLY way is practical putting to use of what you know - or think you know.

I agree completely.
And I'd add that you MAY be able to eventually figure it our for yourself, but the best way to learn is watching someone who does it well.
not someone who teaches about it, but doesn't necessarily do it well.

It's why assisting in the really GREAT studios, with great staffs (Record Plant, Abbey Road, AIR...) spawned so many talented engineers and producers.
Each generation 'taught' the next, sometimes without ever really trying.

[santeri]

And no one questions him, or the cable guy, on their hourly rates.

And yet they're doing something useful. Unlike some punks pulling way more unscrupulous rates for "consulting" :lol:

[otek]

And yet they're doing something useful. Unlike some punks pulling way more unscrupulous rates for "consulting" :lol:


Are you trying to tell me something? :lol:

[Brendo]

That's partly the reason i quit my course after 4 weeks..
Everyone that taught at the place, was a former student.

It's only practical classes that are taught by former students - so 4 hours, once weekly... then there's the usual 3 hour theory classes, 3 or 4 days a week.

FWIW I learned much more teaching for a year than I did learning for two.

It's why assisting in the really GREAT studios, with great staffs (Record Plant, Abbey Road, AIR...) spawned so many talented engineers and producers.
Each generation 'taught' the next, sometimes without ever really trying.

Not everyone has a chance to intern at Record Plant, Abbey Road or AIR.

The scene here is... somewhat depressing... I mean, Metropolis Audio just went under and it was one of the major studios down here, the other notable one being Sing Sing.

[Shotgun]

My plumber also charges just about as much as a Neve desk mix for almost ANY fucking job he does at my place.


And that's STILL not enough money to make me want to fish someone else's corn-studded turd out of their own toilet at 3:15 in the morning while standing ankle deep in filth. I will pay as they ask and question not.

[CaptainHook]

FWIW I learned much more teaching for a year than I did learning for two.


Good point. Teaching is a very good way to ensure you either
a) know what the fuck you're talking about
b) can sound like you know what you're talking about

I like teaching in the way it helps you cement and formulate
your 'knowledge' on a subject for things you otherwise do
as second nature and subconsciously.

It's always interesting when someone asks you:
"Why do you do that?..."
to something you started doing as a REACTION of what is
usually a 'problem' to be solved in your work flow.

You then have to theorize as to why you reacted in such
a way, and then re-examine if it is infact, the 'best'
solution. It's probably a measure of your intuition/talent AND
experience to see how often your 'on-the-fly fix' was the
most appropriate one.

[CaptainHook]

It's only practical classes that are taught by former students - so 4 hours, once weekly... then there's the usual 3 hour theory classes, 3 or 4 days a week.


P.s i would still prefer that my practical knowledge didn't
come from former students without real world experience.
And i personally learn and appreciate theory when approached
in a practical manner anyway. I kinda think the emphasis should be
on the practical side while learning the theory in that
environment. How many internships have played out with
the mentor sitting down 12 hours a week talking about
signal flow and gain structure?
They impart the theory in a practical setting.*

Again, just saying... not MY bag. Works well for some though.


*Sometimes.. and then there's slippy with his 'make em laugh
and forget about the fact they're doing some real learning'..

[Brendo]

P.s i would still prefer that my practical knowledge didn't
come from former students without real world experience.

Ah, but in this case it's only the first years, where the more important thing is to get them comfortable in the studio and get them to know basic signal flow etc. Y'know... the absolute basics, the stuff it'd be too tedious to stop a session every 5 minutes to talk about. Keep in mind a lot of these guys start the course not knowing a single thing about audio or music.

Second and third years are taught by guys who do this stuff for a living and just happen to teach on the side.

[SimonT]

I was considering doing a coarse this year but late last year I did a project for a local band where one of the band members was just finishing his coarse. I was so surprised how little he had learnt, I was pretty much showing everything for what A/D convertors do to how to use a plugin in pro tools. Maybe he was a slack stundent but ive met others like him form the same coarse. To me paying riduculas amonts of money (well it is in New Zealand) to learn what seemed liek next to nothing seemed like a waste. I had learnt alot more from messing around on my LE system and asking lots of questains and talking to our top engineers when our band records at their studios. At the same time there are probably people who learn a ton from Audio school, just probably isnt the best thing for me.

[Brendo]

If you're still set on doing a course, consider moving to Melbourne and coming to the place I'm at.

Of course the class is 90% doofuses, but then there's a small percentage who actually listen in class, and try their hardest to take everything in and use the knowledge they've picked up.

All the things you mentioned are covered in first year! But you know what they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

I had one student who would play PSP in every practical session. Needless to say he failed the end of year test twice before someone babied him thru it so he wouldn't have to come back for another year.

[macr0w]

And that's STILL not enough money to make me want to fish someone else's corn-studded turd out of their own toilet at 3:15 in the morning while standing ankle deep in filth. I will pay as they ask and question not.

Hell, plumbing is just like the music biz: Cold on the right, Hot on the left and shit runs downhill. :D

[HOOK]

Please don´t dismiss all schools just because one or two suck!!
That whould be like saying: Hey I don´t need no AE, the one I had last time did ruin our recording! In fact all AEs are redundant and I do a better job myself.


Please! :Roll eyes:



HOOK

[CaptainHook]

Second and third years are taught by guys who do this stuff for a living and just happen to teach on the side.

That's cool man. I'm not trying to attack your school.
I'm sure there are great schools out there that turn out
really good engineers. I've just never learnt well in that
environment myself. And i dont just mean in terms of AE. :Confused:

[Nigelforsythe]

Now for all of you who've gone the school route, how much did it cost you? I wanna know what a good school is worth.

[Brendo]

JMC in Melbourne is $13,000AUD per year, 3 years, with FEE-HELP available (a government loan paid back out of your paycheque once youre earning $38k/year).

[HOOK]

Didn´t cost me anything, except for roadtrips! :grin:
( AES-Amsterdam and Paris. Abbyroad-, Metropolis-. Townhouse-, Strongroom-studios, London. SSL-plant, Begbroke. SUN-studios, Denmark, Tamburine-studios, Malmö. Swedish Radio, Pearl and Milab - microphones etc *Nostalgia* :Cry: :Roll eyes: )

You can not buy your place though, have to pass the tests and pass two years at Swedish university of music (or similar) to even enlist. (er I wish this was in Swedish :Razz: )
One of my fellow students had atended Berklee school of music US to qualify.

...and yes: You are able to get studentsloan (similar to Brendos FEE-HELP)

HOOK

[Brendo]

Metropolis-.

Bank St South Melbourne?

Did you hear it closed down?

[HOOK]

Bank St South Melbourne?

No, in London. Situated in an old powerplant - Ceilingheight close to 12m at places :Coolio:

Did you hear it closed down?

Yes I heard. Thought it was the London facility though, but aperently not :)
http://www.metropolis-group.co.uk/content.html

Pity for Melbourne though...:Sad:

[Mixerman]

I don't know if this is a very common problem with music education but I have noticed something specifically with an audio / music school in my hometown....

I have not heard a single mix that I've enjoyed coming from any of their students. They're running a full HD system with a nice room so there is so much potential for a great sounding recording. I know it boils down to who's teaching the course and what kind of information is being fed to the students.

I'm not saying I'm any better than said students at the moment but I feel like it's way more worth my time to invest in decent equiptment while I'm working a shitty job and gradually learn from reading about recording in magazines and books, asking people from forums such as this one why my mixes sound like crap, and then practicing hands on....Rather than paying someone to tell me how I should be doing things. Thankyou internet for having so much information for me.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I've been working graveyard shifts at 7-Eleven and it's making me crazy.

Mixing can not be taught, it can only be learned. #8 from Mixerman's 10 Steps to Better Mixing

It took me about 3 years before I turned out a decent mix, and "decent" is probably being somewhat kind. Getting good at mixing takes time, dedication, and talent. The problem is, you can't figure out whether you have the talent until you've invested a significant amount of time and dedication.

The internet is good for picking up tips and tricks. You can even pick up interesting ways of looking at things, but only when you're ready. I try to give some very advanced concepts on the internet, but frankly, you need to arrive to a certain place before some of those concepts will click. Frankly, the most valuable part of internet boards is to solidify your own thought processes. Writing is learning.

Mixerman

[weedywet]

Not everyone has a chance to intern at Record Plant, Abbey Road or AIR.
.

Of course,
and not everyone ends up ever getting really good as well.

Not to say that's the ONLY way, but it was clearly a GOOD way that worked for a lot of people.
With, I suspect, a much higher percentage of success than recording schools.


There's something to be said for a certain amount of gatekeepering.

If Record Plant hired someone, and Shelly Yakus took him on as an assistant, you can bet these people (who KNEW what they were doing) saw something in the up and comer that was worth encouraging and refining.

Recording schools see a chequebook.

[HOOK]

If Record Plant hired someone, and Shelly Yakus took him on as an assistant, you can bet these people (who KNEW what they were doing) saw something in the up and comer that was worth encouraging and refining.

Recording schools see a chequebook.

Not wrong, but not entirely right either.

The main reason anyone hires anyone (for some kind of qualified job) is that they know, or know about, the person and/or that persons work. Know from their own experience or someone they know and trust recomend that same person to them.
Many a teaboy started out without knowing anything....and as in schools not all of them where cut out for the trade, many of them didn´t go any further than teaboy or tapeop...

I wouldn´t hire anyone whithout recomendations; school or trainee the like

Not all schools sell their "seats" - You have to qualify.

[weedywet]

How do you "qualify"?

other than being a high school graduate, etc.

[HOOK]

Tests, both musical and technical, both practical and theoretical, handson mixing, interviews, differ from school to school

The school I attended did tests in musictheory (composing and eartraining) technique (written and practical) and an interview.
Before this you had to send in worksamples and pass two years of music at the university.
One other school in Sweden (Piteå) concentrates more on the technical side and have a more difficult electrical/electronical test but an easier musictheory-test.


HOOK

[Mixerman]

I much prefer assistants that have not been to school. In general (notice I said "in general") the assistants that went to school have some preconceived notion that there is a right and wrong way of doing things, and the ones that have no "recording education" have no such preconceptions.

I find that the best assistants are the musical ones. Guys that are there not because they love music, but because they love and understand it. Guys that play an instrument, preferably well. Guys who can write a song. Or make an arrangement. In fact, if I were in charge of the world, music schooling would be the requisite schooling for setting foot into a music recording facility. That is a far more practical foundation than understanding signal flow. I could teach a monkey signal flow in half an aftgernoon.

I'll never understand how recording became a trade of glorified roadies.

Mixerman

[Brendo]

Of course,
and not everyone ends up ever getting really good as well.

Not to say that's the ONLY way, but it was clearly a GOOD way that worked for a lot of people.
With, I suspect, a much higher percentage of success than recording schools.I never argued otherwise - as I said, 6 out of the 60 who started with me were up to scratch by the end of 2 years.

But the people who argue that recording schools churn out so many engineers that nobody gets a chance at a job because of so much competition from their fellow graduates are full of shit, because the pass rate is way lower than you'd think.

If Record Plant hired someone, and Shelly Yakus took him on as an assistant, you can bet these people (who KNEW what they were doing) saw something in the up and comer that was worth encouraging and refining.

Recording schools see a chequebook.
Sure, again I'm not going to argue... but if a guy sucks after half a year, he fails... and either comes back and repeats the subjects he failed, or goes and does something else.

I had one kid try to bribe me so he could pass his final exam, but he ended up doing it another two times and passing by his own merit in the end. Needless to say he's not back for another year.



By the way, you're not hiring, are you?

[CaptainHook]

frankly, you need to arrive to a certain place before some of those concepts will click.

So true. Which is another interesting part of the internet..
Reading back through archives and seeing such concepts
that on first read you 'understood', but it's not until arriving
at 'that place' which usually involves first hand experience
of said concept that you truly 'get it'. So you're reading
it again thinking "ahhh... i actually GET IT now. How did
i overlook that before?"

[HOOK]

I´ll stress it again: What schools are trying to do (..or should do... :Roll eyes: ) is to show the students how the instrument works, not how to play it, that they have to learn for themselves by actually doing it. I try to show them "why" as opposed to "how" as this gives you deeper understanding of the subject. (that goes for any subject, not just AE)
I try to make them listen and understnad that the instrument is not the mixer or the DAW or whatever; Its their own ears!!!
But most guys just wanna know "how" -much compression on KD? -to put a mic on a gitamp...should it be 2 cm or 2.3 cm away from speaker? blaablaablabla...These guys never gonna make it past mediocre....But then you have the guys who actually listens to what they are doing, try hard to understand the technical stuff, but understand that that is the tools to use, not the instrument itself... Thats the guys who gonna get the jobs.
In a different world I would agree that it whould be advantageously to the AE world if all started out as a teaboy and learned the craft "in place" but as many (most?) guys work alone and dont have any assistants we whould lose many talented people if that was the only way in....
You need quite a few "mediocreguys" to get that new Spector...

If it is like Mixerman said (and I´m not saing it isn´t!) than schools have to change the way they teach.

...or maybe it is just so that the people who wants to know "how" goes to school, and the "why"-persons go ask mixerman for an apprenticeship???



HOOK

[Brendo]

I´ll stress it again: What schools are trying to do (..or should do... :Roll eyes: ) is to show the students how the instrument works, not how to play it, that they have to learn for themselves by actually doing it. I try to show them "why" as opposed to "how" as this gives you deeper understanding of the subject. (that goes for any subject, not just AE)
Well at least at JMC the why comes in theory classes, the how comes in prac classes...

But most guys just wanna know "how" -much compression on KD? -to put a mic on a gitamp...should it be 2 cm or 2.3 cm away from speaker? blaablaablabla...These guys never gonna make it past mediocre....

"So which instruments do you have to compress?"
But the lines between how and why blur, and then you have to tell the student "when you think it needs it - what does a compressor do again?.... and when do you think you would need to reduce dynamic swing?" etc...

[HOOK]

My point being: If you only know how to do something, you can´t apply that knowledge in a different situation.
You teach someone how to best mic a certain KD in a certain room. OK so they know how to get a killer sound in that room with that KD. But if you teach them why it sound as it sounds they can apply that knowledge in all situations they encounter....

As no recording situation is the same I think its better to know "why" than "how"

This is really most a matter of speach as you have to know something about the "how" also ofcourse.

And as you say: "... tell the student "when you think it needs it - what does a compressor do again?.... and when do you think you would need to reduce dynamic swing?"
:Roll eyes: Maybe it´s just me thats blury; The abow is, as I se it, a good example of a lesson in "why"

Learn how to build a chord instead of memorize every possible chord there is.... is kind of what I´m talking about.

if you have learned the why you can practice the how and eventually play your instrument really well...

HOOK

[weedywet]

I much prefer assistants that have not been to school. In general (notice I said "in general") the assistants that went to school have some preconceived notion that there is a right and wrong way of doing things, and the ones that have no "recording education" have no such preconceptions.

I find that the best assistants are the musical ones. Guys that are there not because they love music, but because they love and understand it. Guys that play an instrument, preferably well. Guys who can write a song. Or make an arrangement. In fact, if I were in charge of the world, music schooling would be the requisite schooling for setting foot into a music recording facility. That is a far more practical foundation than understanding signal flow. I could teach a monkey signal flow in half an aftgernoon.

I'll never understand how recording became a trade of glorified roadies.

Mixerman

I agree with all of this.

The "problem" is that I don't think you can teach how to EQ a snare drum, for example.
I can show you how *I* EQ a snare drum and I can try to explain why in THIS situation I did this and in another why I did that.
But so much of it is instinct and taste.

and what I think it comes down to, is that the teachers can ALSO only really show how THEY EQ a snare drum, no matter how one may pretend there are "rules".
So if the teacher has great taste and makes great records the student is off to a good start... and if not... not.

Really, it's more about getting the hang of it and eventually needing to find your OWN voice in the craft or not.

I agree with Mixerman that most recording school graduates eem so THROWN by anyone who doesn't do it the way they were "taught".

In part I suspect because you only pass your tests by regurgitating THEIR methods, not by creating your own. Or even being particularly OPEN to other ways of skinning the cat.

Anyway, from what I'm seeing, more recording school grads these days are being trained in ProTools much more than in actual recording techniques.

[HOOK]

Anyway, from what I'm seeing, more recording school grads these days are being trained in ProTools much more than in actual recording techniques.

:Roll eyes: ...anyone know if this is the case with art students; More Photoshop/Painter and less brushes and paint on canvas?

HOOK

[Spock]

:Roll eyes: ...anyone know if this is the case with art students; More Photoshop/Painter and less brushes and paint on canvas?

HOOK

Yes, it is. In this case with photography.

A good friend was teaching at a small local arts school. He is older and very unique in his views. He doesn't understand and doesn't want to understand digital. If you can't frame a good shot it makes no difference film or digital.

He left because he didn't see eye to eye with the department head that wanted to do more and more classes on Photoshop and less on things like lighting and critical seeing.

[weedywet]

Because you'll get a lot more students for a class in Microsoft Word than for writing.

[Brendo]

Anyway, from what I'm seeing, more recording school grads these days are being trained in ProTools much more than in actual recording techniques.

Actually - at JMC, ProTools never enters the theory classroom... also, up until very recently, we had DTRS tape machines in a few places for the beginners to start on.

[Mixerman]

Because you'll get a lot more students for a class in Microsoft Word than for writing.

Exactly. Recording, mixing, and producing is an art. Not a trade. It's not about running a tape deck or a DAW. It's about choices.

Define a good kik drum sound for me. Define a good bass sound.

You wanna know the record I struggle to mix the most? The ones where the producer or the recordist didn't take into account the whole recording. The whole production. The bass sound that doesn't match with the kik drum, or the rest of the band. Or the drummer that's wailing on the cyumbals throughout the chorus while the guitars are anemic and have no beef in which to compensate.

The art is in understanding the big picture. The art is in the musicallity. Not in your editing skills. Because frankly, the way people chop shit up today, there IS no artistry in it. If a kid in his basement can chop up and beat detective the drums as well as you can, as a working professional? Guess what? WE LOSE!

If a kid can hit his L2 at 7db of reduction, and if a kid can distort the mix and overly brighten it? Guess what? WE LOSE!

Schools don't teach artistry. They teach platforms. They teach signal flow. You know what art students learn? And I'm not talking art schools that view art as a trade. I'm talking real art. YOu know what they learn? They learn art history. And it's fucking hard too. It's real college. And they learn to work in every medium, even if they don't love working in that medium. You know why? Because it's important for them to know what people did before them, and it's important to have some understanding of all presentation mediums. If for no other reason than TO FIND OUT WHAT MEDIUM THEY EXCEL IN.

But recording schools don't teach music theory. They don't teach ear training or solfedge. They don't teach the students about the engineers before them, and have them work in the mediums before them. They completely throw out history. None of that is important. How records were made 30 years ago is irrelevant.

But is it?

Is it irrelevant to be able to record and mix direct to two track. Is it irrelevant to understand what it sounds like to record onto tape? Is it irrelevant to understand what vinyl sounds like as compared to CDs as compared to MP3s? Is it irrelevant to hear what a good player sounds like throgh a high quality console? Is it irrelevant to watch how someone deals with the talent? Is it irrelevant to watch how different people run a session?

Recording may or may not have been a trade before recording schools came into vogue. But once recording became a two year program, it became a trade. And anyone that liked music, but wasn't smart enough or wealthy enough for college became a recording engineer. I'm sorry, but that's not a good thing.

Recording school should be real college. Not trade school.

Mixerman

[Brendo]

Define a good kik drum sound for me.
A recording of a kick drum that suits the song.
Define a good bass sound.
A recording of a bass instrument that suits the song.

But recording schools don't teach music theory.
Actually, some do.


I wonder how many of you guys talking about recording school have actually seen the curriculum taught at some of these places?

[santeri]

But recording schools don't teach music theory. They don't teach ear training or solfedge. They don't teach the students about the engineers before them, and have them work in the mediums before them. They completely throw out history. None of that is important. How records were made 30 years ago is irrelevant.

Recording school should be real college. Not trade school.

There are actual colleges that do all that. I don't know if people graduating from these schools are any better or worse, but all the above is part of the curriculum.

[weedywet]

...
You wanna know the record I struggle to mix the most? The ones where the producer or the recordist didn't take into account the whole recording. The whole production. The bass sound that doesn't match with the kik drum, or the rest of the band. Or the drummer that's wailing on the cyumbals throughout the chorus while the guitars are anemic and have no beef in which to compensate.
...


SO true.

Good producing, and by extension good recording, is about making it all go TOGETHER.
Anyone can get "good" sounds in SOLO these days especially.
That doesn't make a record though.

[weedywet]

Is it irrelevant to be able to record and mix direct to two track. Is it irrelevant to understand what it sounds like to record onto tape? Is it irrelevant to understand what vinyl sounds like as compared to CDs as compared to MP3s? Is it irrelevant to hear what a good player sounds like throgh a high quality console? Is it irrelevant to watch how someone deals with the talent? Is it irrelevant to watch how different people run a session?

Well obviously I don't think it's irrelevant.

and I love your point about art students learning to work in charcoal whether they like it or intend to continue working in it or NOT.

So should engineers learn to record straight to 2 track.
and then maybe on 4 or 8 track.
They should learn to record a drum kit with one or two mics before they are allowed to used 43.
If only for the HISTORY of that, but also because they'll learn what each mic DOES to the sound.

It may be different in a Tonmeister course in Europe.
But I SEE the output from an awful lot of US recording schools (friends of mine WORK there) and it's sad.

Understandable, as a business model for THEM, but sad.

I don't think you should teach "rock" in a college either.

Until you can brunoise an onion in your sleep, you shouldn't be allowed to COOK anything at culinary school.

[Mixerman]

There are actual colleges that do all that. I don't know if people graduating from these schools are any better or worse, but all the above is part of the curriculum.

The large preponderance of new assistants come from trade schools. Not college. This is a multinational website, but I can only speak to what I see here in the US.

Mixerman

[otek]

The large preponderance of new assistants come from trade schools.

So it looks like the trade schools are getting something right at least, if they put me in the path of successful engineers and producers.

The trick of course is to stay there - and this is where I think the oft-repeated discussion about trade schools gets interesting.

You see, I don't believe that any school - recording or otherwise - can teach you about life. At least no school I've gone to has ever done that. And since being a great assistant (and hopefully in time, a great engineer) is all about dealing with people and living life with music in your heart, all a school can hope to do is set forth some useful tools and hope you do right by them.

I for one never expected anything more. Or anything less.


Cheers,

otek, American trade school graduate

[Mixerpuppet]

Recording school should be real college. Not trade school.

Mixerman


Im gonna disagree...

There are so many things a properly designed trade school can do that a college can't. We need less colleges and more one on one transferring of tribal experiential knowledge.

Colleges area about a homogenized education to back fill the reitirees from large corporations so the machine of capitalism can keep moving forward and taxes get paid.

Trade schools at one time, is/were where the art was transferred from teacher to student in a real time fashion. The test were not written and your ability to remain in the school was based upon aptitude. If you could figure out soldering in a decent and normal amount of time you were cut from the school.

The Problem here...

Most "American Trade Schools" are now just junior colleges pumping out students based upon a pass/fail final test with no regard to talent or aptitude in the real work environment.

Electricians and Plumbers are just 2 jobs I can think of that require you to go through a series of levels before your considered a genuine, certified "Plumber"... People don't need a inexperienced plumber "experimenting" while thier home is being flooded.

Taking the raw ability to make something roughly artsy and turn it into recognizable Art.

We need "Trade Schools" that are what they used to be and not the Puppy Mills they've turned into.

Nothing sucks more than having to un-train a college graduate so you can get them to do their job.

[santeri]

Colleges area about a homogenized education to back fill the reitirees from large corporations so the machine of capitalism can keep moving forward and taxes get paid.

This statement is wrong on so many levels I just couldn't ignore it.

In the world I live in colleges, or universities, are about all-round education, scientific thinking, and - most importantly for the academia - filtering potential new candidates to grow into researchers. I.e. what I learned in university was, basicly, a set of tools and methods to learn things by myself. That is, a mindset, not a profession or trade.

YMMV, of course.

[Carlo]

This mixing thing is kinda weird anyway.

Then you're finally readdy to mix anything, and your hearing is getting old because you worked to much and to loud and you're fucked.

THIS GIG FUCKING SUCKS DONKEY'S, BETTER LEARN PLUMBERY !

I warned you

malice

:lol: :Twisted: :lol:

[Pancho Ballard]

I went to Leigh College in England and did two courses in Popular Music, an ND and a HND (this will mean nothing to most people on here). One of the modules in each two year course was recording and technology, in which we had to record a song to demonstrate our understanding of the studio.

Since I've been recording on my own for ten years since then I've realised we were shown hardly anything of any use while we were there. The only thing I learnt was how to get the sound ontp tape and how to apply a bit of reverb or delay by using the inserts. We never learnt anything about compressors, nor EQ and mixing was simply a matter of balancing volume levels and making sure you could hear the vocals.

Mic placement was a matter of sticking the mic in front of the instrument you were recording, I never got told what a mic-pre was, never got told about cardoid or omni patterns, never knew what mic to use in what situation. In all, it sucked.

At the time I enjoyed the studio work thoroughly because I thought I was learning stuff but now I just feel ripped off. Fortunately the local education authority paid for it...

[weedywet]

This statement is wrong on so many levels I just couldn't ignore it.

In the world I live in colleges, or universities, are about all-round education, scientific thinking, and - most importantly for the academia - filtering potential new candidates to grow into researchers. I.e. what I learned in university was, basicly, a set of tools and methods to learn things by myself. That is, a mindset, not a profession or trade.


tha's RIGHT.

It's a mistake that colleges are BECOMING more like 'trade schools' (or remedial high-schools).
but they SHOULD be about learning to learn.

[weedywet]

... and mixing was simply a matter of balancing volume levels and making sure you could hear the vocals.
...

not to take away from the rest of your point...
but that IS what mixing is mostly about.

good balance is the MOST important thing.

[burnsy]

I think it may have been you hook but i might be wrong that said you approve of the school aiming towards a musical course before going onto recording etc. Does this in your opinion mean that all AE's should be musicians or do you think someone who is musically inclined with a technical mind and know how can do the job just as well ? Im very scared of attempting the AE route due to a lot of people saying you need to be a musician and know it inside out. I do and don't agree. Could someone shed some light on this ?

[Brendo]

One of the modules in each two year...

The only thing I learnt was how to get the sound ontp tape

Did you expect to become Clearmountain in a week?

Again, if you did a year at an "audio school" you WOULD have learnt mic placement, mic "appropriateness", compression, EQ, etc...

I can hardly say I'm surprised, that in a MUSIC course, they didn't go into RECORDING in that much detail. The subject was probably geared more towards making home demos, than being a Padoosa?

[Mixerman]

Did you expect to become Clearmountain in a week?

Again, if you did a year at an "audio school" you WOULD have learnt mic placement, mic "appropriateness", compression, EQ, etc...

I can hardly say I'm surprised, that in a MUSIC course, they didn't go into RECORDING in that much detail. The subject was probably geared more towards making home demos, than being a Padoosa?

What kind of mic placement is taught at your school?

Mixerman

[Brendo]

What kind of mic placement is taught at your school?

Mixerman

In first year, the basics... XY, ORTF, Decca Tree, AB.... the 3:1 rule, etc... Others might include micing acoustic guitars with a mic on the 12th fret, or over the right shoulder... Recorderman overheads... Y'know, "tried and true" techniques that are guaranteed to get you somewhere, even if it's not the right place... and then evaluating later on whether it was right or not right for the song. Like learning how to use a paintbrush.

Focusing mostly in first semester on "simple" things like singer/songwriter where there's only one instrument and a vocal, or maybe two instruments, etc.

Second semester, introducing the drumkit, and (usually) rock band instrumentation (the students source their own bands)... last year i actually taught my kids the Slipperman method of sweeping the mic around etc...


Second year, a bit more in depth, learning even more to move mics around in headphones and concentrating less on trial and error and more on getting things right as quickly as possible, first time if possible.

Past the basic learning what mics are and what mics do, and also starting to experiment with some different techniques - like underheads, for example. Starting to move outside the "old faithful" mic techniques and learning exactly what is possible. Hopefully learnt the basics by now, and just really practicing the technical aspect...You've learnt how to use the paintbrush, now exploring the palette of colors available.


Third year, trying to understand WHY these different placements sound different, and trying to come up with your own theories as to when each different placement would be appropriate, what sort of characteristics each placement brings out in the instrument, how the microphone choice and placement interacts with the instrument, the player, the room...

Advanced microphone techniques, such as for recording orchestra or jazz bands...

Also by this point getting more into the philosophy aspect rather than the technical aspect - which should already be pretty solid by now.

You know how to use a paintbrush, and you know what colors are available, now understanding WHY you would paint red there, and what other colors could you paint there, and what effect would they have on the overall picture, etc...

[Mixerpuppet]

This statement is wrong on so many levels I just couldn't ignore it.

In the world I live in colleges, or universities, are about all-round education, scientific thinking,
and - most importantly for the academia - filtering potential new candidates to grow into researchers.
I.e. what I learned in university was, basicly, a set of tools and methods to learn things by myself.
That is, a mindset, not a profession or trade.

YMMV, of course.


Honestly I'm glad you live in a world like that. But I think your mindset may be influenced by what you were
told at some point, it almost feels rote and reheased like a sales pitch.


At least to me it does because.... (bear with me)



The world I live in is quite different and highly frustrating at times. There is a difference in the
terminoloy between the US system and Britain so I imagine there are other differences with Europe and Asia.
(wikipedia confirms this) The American public education system is designed not for the benefit of the
student but for the benefit of corporate economics. This can easily be proved by the reduced or deleted
funding for Physical, Art and music education. Many sources show this to be a recent problem? Many...
if you reference my last post I mentioned that colleges used to be something different.






The word college means literally “union formed by law,” or a group of people associated in some common function.
The ancient Roman craft guilds were called collegia. The closest parallel today is the corporation, a business
organization chartered by a government.



In the Carolingian period, Charlemagne created a type of academy, called the palace school or scola palatina,
in Aachen, a city in present-day Germany. Another school, nowadays embodied by the Brexgata University
Academy, was founded in the year 798 by Carolingian leaders. It was situated near Noyon, a city in present-day France.
From a broader perspective it were the scholars, the aristocrats, the clergymen, and Charlemagne himself, who
shared a vision of educating the population in general, and of training the children of aristocrats in how
to manage their lands and protect their states against invasion or squandering. These initiatives were a
foreshadowing of the rise, from the 11th century onward, of universities in Western Europe.


In most English-speaking countries, a public school is financed and operated by an agency of government which
does not charge tuition fees; instead, financing is obtained through taxes or other government-collected
revenues. Most colleges are public and get thier funding from the Government (Federal, state and/or local) and private "investors", many of
these private investors are corporations the recruit heavily. The US DOD is one of the largest recruiters and
the Department of Education manages the funding for most Colleges.


The curriculum is designed around industry supply and demand. Look at the structure of the system,
the traditions and the degree system. It tells you what you can or cannot learn. The Student to Teacher
ratio is abnormally high and many styles of teaching the material is not effective for open thought.
The biggest key to the homogenization comment I made is "Accreditation", a uniform system to assure you are
like everyone else who holds a similar piece of paper.

It wasn't that long ago that Audio Engineering did not exist as a degree and mainly relied upon the tribal
system also known as an Internship.

There are some things I believe that colleges excel at, but other things colleges are not the best way.
it is true of trade, vocational and art schools. There are things that are knowledge based and things that are
experienced based. AE is more experience than knowledge. You can't read sound waves. You can't see smells.
(unless you've ventured into PCP)


Im not dogmatic about this, like all sweeping generalizations there are pockets of exceptions whether it's my
view or your own.

My vote would for colleges to head back towards more experimental and less text/lecture so that there is
a level of realism that I find exciting. I'm a kinetic visual learner...

[HOOK]

I think it may have been you hook but i might be wrong that said you approve of the school aiming towards a musical course before going onto recording etc. Does this in your opinion mean that all AE's should be musicians or do you think someone who is musically inclined with a technical mind and know how can do the job just as well ? Im very scared of attempting the AE route due to a lot of people saying you need to be a musician and know it inside out. I do and don't agree. Could someone shed some light on this ?

Don´t know´bout the light thing...:Wink:

Yes! I do think that a musical background/understanding/training is advantageous when striving to become an AE, as there are some problematic mixes that realy is a problematic arangement or something else of a "musical" origin. This is easier to solve if you know your musictheory etc. ...and you whould know how to communicate with your musicians....


That said, I do think there are more than few AEs, producers and the like that lacks musical training and still make marvelous music, as well as composers that are score-illiterate and don´t know a A7 chord from a cucumber, and still write magical music. However I am certain that they have a "musical understanding" allthough they can´t express this in musical terms.

-I think that all composers, musicians AND AEs should be a little less technical and a bit more musical.

-I think that they all should work a little less by the book and a bit more by the ear.



HOOK

[HOOK]

My vote would for colleges to head back towards more experimental and less text/lecture so that there is
a level of realism that I find exciting. I'm a kinetic visual learner...

Amen to that!!:) ...but you´ll keep some theory wont you?? :Roll eyes:


Thanks for that insight in the US edu system.....difficult when you talk about differnt things labeled as the same; Schools.

[Mixerpuppet]

Amen to that!!:) ...but you´ll keep some theory wont you?? :Roll eyes:

LMAO... I still have affections for the theoretical in music, biology and physics. But it's more like a hobby now. :Twisted:



Thanks for that insight in the US edu system.....difficult when you talk about differnt things labeled as the same; Schools.


heh heh... they sure don't make it easy once the government gets thier grubby lil hands in there.

I learned the hardway being of the brain type not allowed to play in any of thier raindeer games. (no freaks allowed)

It's not a good thing to isolate a left handed adhd kid...

I have an Austalian friend who used to teach college physics and now he teaches special education in the US for 5th graders and he says the US is delporable in identifying gifted children and nuturing thier "special" abilities. His wife is a Psycologist who treated me for anger issues which were comorbid to the adhd socialization difficulties. Their recommendation is to find a private University or travel abroad.


Oxford is nice...


Im a black sheep raised by Elitist snobs, please excuse my knee jerk reactions. It's better than being raised by wolves I guess.

[leester]

LMAO...
Im a black sheep raised by Elitist snobs, please excuse my knee jerk reactions. It's better than being raised by wolves I guess.

get the movie man... the movie. :Coolio:

[Mixerpuppet]

get the movie man... the movie. :Coolio:

Soon....

:)