Using plug-ins live

[Barska]

Hi everyboy!

I just wondered if any of you have used plug-ins live? I'm starting a tour with a band in few weeks (FOH) and we're seriously going to use space designer(drum rev) and C4+distortion plug (bass) to name some. So any notes on this scenario? And no- we can't afford Venue :)

BTW. I know some people have really done this on regular basis and it seems ok- but still....

[pounce]

i'm still not comfortable with this option, the latency being the first issue that comes to mind. in my case, i'd just use decent hardware so that you could focus on other issues live. get a decent reverb (pcm90 or the like should be fine live) and mic the bass cabinet if there is a cabinet distortion sound that you are trying to get.

i suppose it's funny, and i suppose my answer will eventually change, because i love computer geeky stuff but am not yet sure i'd combine it with live sound in this way. with all the variables in live sound i would want to eliminate things that could go wrong that i'd have to worry about. using plug in effects is very much one of the things i wouldn't want to do. for a lot less money than the computer, i/o card, fx and such you could just get a piece of hardware that won't ever screw up and doesn't have latency issues.

[Barska]

Yeah well,

I'm aware of the problems you mentioned. The Latency won't really be an issue as with only few plug-ins (C4, Space Designer and some distortion) it'll be less than 3ms. And as i'm using digital desk, and as in most venues I have to delay the PA anyway more than 3ms this is just a case of which point do i delay and what.

The shit-hits-the-fan-factor is the real scary thing here. I mean, going like I'm planning here, in case of major computer fuck-up I'd loose my drumverb and bass sound. Bass would be back (only back, sounding weird) by ripping out the insert loom but the drumverb... The equipment I'm gonna use here are on the most reliable end of line like RME etc. so I'm, maybe overly, trustfull here.

Of course I could just do this the classic way but hey - Isn't that a little, umm, too classic?:Roll eyes: And all the plug-in stuff were actually used on the band's new album which I also recorded and mixed so there's a little

Thank god I have a PA rehearsal day in the starting venue of the tour. Kinda makes me sleep better right now. :Wink: BTW- we will carry the whole FOH system with us so that'll remove some of the variables...

[clicktrack]

Funny...I thought I replied to this thread the other day...

Must've dreamed it.


Either that or didn't hit the magical "submit" button before turning off the idiot box.

Anyways, What I said in the dream is that this is something that I'd be a little afraid to do. Only from the fact that its not only the plug you're depending on, its the entire computer.

The funny part is that we depend on computers all the way through the chain these days. From programmed scenes in the lighting desks to the patches on our digital desks, we're already dependant on something that could fail.

I guess the dividing line is that the purpose built stuff is exactly that...purpose built and designed to only do what it does. When you're running plugins on a computer...even if it is a customized computer, you are running them from a device designed to be a general "jack of all trades" platform. And thats what scares me.

Having said that, I just came off a show last week where the FOH operator ran a Pro Tools LE rig to handle all of his effects. It worked and sounded good (from what I heard at soundcheck that is...I was in the truck the majority of the day). He's been using it on tour and it doesn't sound like he's had any trouble with the process.

You raise a good point...a lot of people are building up processing chains for their album and now want to use the same chains on the road to make the live show sound very similar to the album. There are pros and cons to that concept (are we seeing a live show to listen to the album?!?!?), but the fact is that we're going to see more and more of this as time progresses.

Is it possible to put your chain through an aux so that, at very least, if the rig dies on you, you still have some of the original signal without repatching the insert loom?

[pounce]

my reluctance might be based on an older way of thinking. frankly, a surprising number of shows are coming in with tracks being run off of little powerbooks. i see DP, PT, and even cubase now and again. lots of the big kids use them in integral ways in their shows. showing my preference, i'd certainly use a mac for this purpose. it's my choice, and literally osx is the only operating system i've seen for these kinds of applications live. past that, i'm sure it's possible to do this. i still lean slightly towards just using dedicated hardware that is less prone to failure and will require less of your attention.

ps: i would have guessed that you were involved in the studio side of things and wanted to drag the plug ins out for that reason.

[dnafe]

In the disasters thread I posted that I did a gig with Nuendo in the front end.

Let's just say in this particular scenario the idea wasn't ready for prime time.

Nor did I particularly like the mix by mouse aspect....sucks the big one.

If you insist on going this route one word of advice...make sure you have an adequate UPS otherwise the "flys in the ointment will soon become elephants"

[clicktrack]

If you insist on going this route one word of advice...make sure you have an adequate UPS otherwise the "flys in the ointment will soon become elephants"


Some sage advice.

I think this is the crux of the problem with plugins (and their associated DAWs). When they go down, its not seconds that you're down...its minutes. At least with purpose built gear, its usually only a few (agonizing) seconds before its back up once power is restored. And many, do it intelligently, where the settings you had right before the power blip are restored immediately.

There's an inherent security to that, methinks.

[Barska]

Thanks for feedback:Wink: people!

I'm afraid my path is set with this case. At least until we have finished the PA-rehearsal day. In my case the worst case scenario is nothing compared to the intuitive will to explore this thing thoroughly. I mean, in case of unexpected shutdown, as I noted before, I'd only loose bass and some drumverb. Bass would be back in whim by panicing and rippin the insert cable out (of course I'm going to match the levels so that nothing unexpected on that side of things). Of course the sound would be different, normal, but that's what people hear on 90% of the gigs they go to. Drumverb is... drumverb :) And I'm using few FX-boards anyway so rest of the show would go on those.

I'll report back to you in a week after we have done the rehearsals...:Coolio:

[Tim Halligan]

...space designer(drum rev) and C4+distortion plug (bass) to name some.

Of course the sound would be different, normal, but that's what people hear on 90% of the gigs they go to. Drumverb is... drumverb :) And I'm using few FX-boards anyway so rest of the show would go on those.

Does anybody else remember when the bass player would apply his own effects that he had tailored himself to sound like the record? Maybe a bit of compression from FOH was all that was required...

...or when the epitome of live reverb was the Yamaha R1000?

FFS...it's a live show. Of course it's going to sound different from the record. As a punter, I want it to sound different from the record...otherwise I've just wasted significant dollars to hear the record in a less than optimal listening environment with a whole bunch of people that I don't know or like.

Give me an interesting live show that takes its cues from the record but extrapolates it into new interesting places.

...and tell your lazy-ass bass player to take responsibility for his own sound. :Twisted:

Lastly, to paraphrase a much wiser man than me: the punters won't leave the venue at the conclusion of the gig singing the bass line or the drumverb.

Cheers,
Tim

[Barska]

Does anybody else remember when the bass player would apply his own effects that he had tailored himself to sound like the record? Maybe a bit of compression from FOH was all that was required...*cut*

:lol: You're absolutely right Tim and I feel your point. This is 20% madnes, 40% will to explore, 60% self-destructive way of life (that's 120%). And I must admit that some tiny voice tells me that overall livesound stuff is going forward in some strange way... with DD's venue and all. Maybe someday bands not only rent a studio to make a record but also to build a live-template...:Uh oh:

I'm afraid the way sounds are often manufactured in studio is playing some part in this equation. It's not so rare to fix something that is not broken in the studio sessions. And as outcome you have a bass player who seems to be lazy (Ok, they ARE often lazy) soundwise but in truth he has no freakin idea what that guy who mixed the whole thing did to his already good sound.

This is getting OT and too deep but I just say one more thing. The band I'm working for has a new lights/video guy who has whole lotta of gayish (read fashionable etc.) ideas to fill the stage so I kind of have to at least call and see his hand :Roll eyes:

[Brendo]

what is so different about your sound that you really must drag out your plugins, and you can't do it with hardware boxes?

i mean... unless you're doing something wacky with the drum verb like using a convolution verb with a snare sample loaded as the IR so everything sounds like its INSIDE a snare drum, or whatever... then what's the point? and even if you WERE doing what I mentioned in that example, you could get very close by messing with predelay and reverb time.

what exactly needed fixing about this bass player's already good sound?

[Barska]

The bass used was different (you know Rickenbacker ain't exactly Wal), there was serious processing in the dynamics AND there is no way to get such creamy fuzzbass sound on stomp boxes AND the bass is overly critical in this bands music...

Sounds like you're pissed off?!? Or am I missing something? Anyway, yes I'm in fact using convolution made for that drumset in the studio and I fuckin like it end of story. And no, it's not only me that came up with the idea to do this- the bands guitarist/singer is whizkid/producer/sound engineer himself and he is more than prone to do this kind of shit. Hell, he played one major venue routin guitar, bass and vocs through computer and utilized automation for the whole gig... This is in no way case of "my sound's so much better than your's so I'm doing all this plug-in wanking". It's just a new way to try and make sound live...



I mean, if my intuition's right and you're pissed off, what's wrong with experimentation...?:Confused: Basicly the answer to question "why?" is "why not?".

[Brendo]

im not pissed off, i just think its using an elephant gun to swat a fly.

what style are the band? could you show us some examples of their studio sound? how about a myspace link or something?

the thing i'd be worried about most, would be the latency, and the possibility for glitching... what desk are you using, how would you be running the plugins?

i can't say i haven't thought about running fx from a laptop before - but i also know that i haven't had a great amount of luck in the past. YMMV.

[Barska]

im not pissed off, i just think its using an elephant gun to swat a fly.

OK. Good. Sorry it has taken some time.

what style are the band? could you show us some examples of their studio sound? how about a myspace link or something?

There is no new material at the myspace but here's the link http://www.myspace.com/superchristisbest

The last three songs are pretty good examples of the typical sound. First song is done on rehearsal place :D Nice garage sound though...

the thing i'd be worried about most, would be the latency, and the possibility for glitching... what desk are you using, how would you be running the plugins?
6 gigs done now. No glitches, latency 2.5 ms on the whole mix (and there is much more delayed lines that are in fact intended). Everyhting's even more smooth than before. Desk is digital Ramsa- I don't really understand what has it got to do with anything. LR-feed goes to clubs own FOH as does my three foldback lines in case there is no separate monitor desk.

i can't say i haven't thought about running fx from a laptop before - but i also know that i haven't had a great amount of luck in the past. YMMV.

So far things have been great for us. Our soundchecks take about 30 minutes less time now (that's 15 minutes) and I get my FOH system running at the same time the band get their shit rigged up on stage. I've also got lots of "thank you's" when sharing night with some other bands because in case of small club FOH the other band's mixer doesn't have to write everything down because of me taking up all the channels. We also get more even sound every night regardless where we are.

Case closed as far as i'm concerned.

[vocalnick]

From a musician's angle, I've been experimenting lately with running keyboard & guitars through a laptop - only for rehearsals though.

I sing lead vocal, and also play some keyboard and some guitar at various points - often in the same show. I often wished we'd showed a bit more overdubbing restraint on the CD, but that's another story. At the moment I juggle the three roles, because that's what sounds good. It's a lot of stuff to keep track of, particularly with various patches and settings.

I'd already been messing around using some software for generating key sounds - even most of the freebie VST Hammonds will beat a ROMpler (for example) - and I figured if I'm tapping a footswitch to advance keyboard patches throughout the set, couldn't I do the same for guitar? I'm tossing up between two options there at the moment. I can either send a MIDI program change to my Roland VG88, or I can run my guitar through the audio interface on the laptop, process the distortion & effects in there, and take it out a separate output into the amp. I'm leaning toward option A for now, just to save some CPU cyces. It also means I still have something to play if the computer ever does go down :)

I won't say I'm not very worried about the prospect of a crash, but it's been rock solid so far (only for rehearsals at this stage though). It's a laptop, so it basically has a built in UPS, although it glitches a bit if you kill the power.

Glad it has been working well for you. I think a PC (or a Mac, whatever, I'm non-denominational) can be as solid as any digital gear if it's put together with that in mind. Hell, bands have been using samplers on stage for years, and their recovery time has not exactly been speedy. My laptop runs a stripped down dedicated copy of Windows XP, with my host application set to run on startup. Power on to playing time is about 15 seconds - that beats a lot of dedicated samplers I've seen.