the right mic for the right job...

[dwoz]

In my way of thinking, there are two possible choices for microphones in any given live sound reinforcement situation:


A) an SM57.


B) the wrong mic.


discuss.

dwoz

[nobby]

Budget allowing, MD421. But, yeah, 57 standard, 58 typical for vox. Which reminds me, I want to put my 58 beta on ebay... too many underutilized mics here!

I've seen live setups where 3 backup singers sing into an EV 635a, but on a big stage. In a bar, that might be a prescription for feedback.

[nobby]

Beta 57A might be slightly better on snare than 57? Being hypercardioid?

I'm envisioning Pounce and Clicktrack rolling their eyes :icon_mrgreen:

[Pimp-X]

So long as we're clear that the beta52 is the wrong mike for anything that emits sound.

[pounce]

So long as we're clear that the beta52 is the wrong mike for anything that emits sound.

so you would prefer a d112 or m88 or beta91 for kick?

[Pimp-X]

so you would prefer a d112 or m88 or beta91 for kick?

Or even a 421!


Perhaps a RCA44 in a pinch.

[pounce]

but for live work, especially festival work, i've found a beta52 to be something you can point and go with real quick since it's not as fussy about position as an m88. so there are times it sure is convenient. depends how "throw it up and go" you have to be.

ps: did festival style work all day yesterday. a 13 hour mixfest. last band was an 8 piece philipino band with lots of unfamiliar instruments and they didn't know how to tell me what they needed. days like that i'll take any dynamic mic that i can point and go with. i used some 57's, some akg 460's, a few countryman DI's, and a pair of beta 58's for vocals. it worked. if they had a kick drum and i had a beta52, i would have thrown it up there. i didn't have any 421's handy. that might be my whatever works answer. just give me a mic and i'll make it work.

[blackieC]

So long as we're clear that the beta52 is the wrong mike for anything that emits sound.

I'm going to have to go ahead and, uhh, disagree with you there.

But then again I'm not a live sound guy so WTF do I know?





Oh yeah, fuck all.

That's what I know.
:D

[dwoz]

Or even a 421!




the 421 and 441 are perhaps the most exticulant workhorses of the industrial age, w.r.t. live stage sound. Got a bassist/doghouse? You're COVERED. Got a background vocalist? COVERED. Toms? COVERED. Need a nail hammered into the brick wall on stage left? C.O.V.E.R.E.D.

I'm in love.


dwoz

[pounce]

at home, i have a 441 and a couple of 421's. they (and 57's) account for the best "i can mic anything with this" mic's ever made. maybe we could vote for a u87 as a great "utility" ldc? touring broadway still uses the shit out of u87's, and for good reason. they work on everything, which is what this thread is getting to be about.

[LouMan]

I use an Audix OM-5 for my live vocal mic. It's nice, powerful, and rejects feedback quite nicely.

We use 57's on all the amps though.

[Droolbucket]

Years ago I caught a live band called the Rods in Lima, Ohio. The mix was fantastic. My band had been struggling to get a good kick sound, so I went to the Rod's soundguy to ask him a few questions. I told him how great the band sounded, and the kick drum was somehow huge without being overbearing. I asked what mic he was using on the kick. Answer.... SM-57. He apologized, saying the regular kick mic was being repaired, and he threw a 57 on it basically because it was the only mic he had left.
2 lessons... first, a 57 works for anything.
Second, a sound guy with a good ear is a treasure.

Droolbucket

[Brendo]

the 421. Need a nail hammered into the brick wall on stage left? C.O.V.E.R.E.D.

Eugh. You serious? 421 = easily broken. Or, JMC students = fucking klutzes.

It's probably a bit o both now that I think about it..

[dwoz]

Eugh. You serious? 421 = easily broken. Or, JMC students = fucking klutzes.

It's probably a bit o both now that I think about it..


The only time I've ever seen either one broken is when someone couldn't figure out the clip.

dwoz

[Brendo]

Then it must be the latter of my statements... which really doesn't surprise me.

They havent quite grasped "Mic + floor = broken grille" yet.

[bunnerabb]

D-112 - kick out
sm-91 - kick in
421s - toms
c451b - hat and O/H
Radials- keys, bass
sm-58 - vocals
sm-57 - guitars and hi/lo snare

Pretty much bulltproof, IMHO.

Of course, that's for rock.

You start getting all esoteric and out come the SACs and the choir mics.

[pounce]

D-112 - kick out
sm-91 - kick in
421s - toms
c451b - hat and O/H
Radials- keys, bass
sm-58 - vocals
sm-57 - guitars and hi/lo snare

Pretty much bulltproof, IMHO.

Of course, that's for rock.

You start getting all esoteric and out come the SACs and the choir mics.

yeah, that's a pretty typical rock setup. maybe 81's instead of 451's depending on what you are carrying. it'll all work.

wrt 421's, yes best mic / worst clip. i see lots of them gaffed into their clips so that you don't constantly drop them while setting them up or adjusting them.

we will all agree that the clips on 421's suck like a hooker on nickel night.

[peter]

More and more I don't like DI-Boxes on Bass. Lately I always use another D112 for the Bassamp. For some reason I don't get a good Sound out of the Bass when I use a DI. I doubt its the DI. I usuly take a BSS AR-133.

[pounce]

no doubt bss is nice kit. hey, do what you think sounds good. i suppose if the DI or the cabinet sounds better depends a lot on the player and cabinet and the space.

[dwoz]

D-112 - kick out
sm-91 - kick in
421s - toms
c451b - hat and O/H
Radials- keys, bass
sm-58 - vocals
sm-57 - guitars and hi/lo snare



I think this particular mic lineup can be found in the Book of Genesis, somewhere among all the "begats".

Only thing missing is the RE20 on bass or kick, and a piano lo/hi mic. and whether you're a LDC guy or a Ribbon guy there, is pretty much as fraught with ancestral strife as the descendants of David and Goliath (or rather, Goliath's buds).


dwoz

[bunnerabb]

well, yeah


but...

my shit works




.

[AxeSlash]

57s can do almost anything. And seem to be pretty bombproof, which is always a good thing in this industry. We use em on almost any amp, toms, snare...I've used one on kick and got away with it alright. Same applies to 421s, but I seem to find myself doing a bit more work with them :P

SM91 is a pretty good one for kick - yet to hear something I like better live, but I've rarely seen it used for much else.

451s or SE300Bs (with appropriate heads) are pretty useful for just about anything that needs a condenser, or failing that we'll whack a 414 on it instead. 451s make good lectern mics too (leave those horrible 747's at the warehouse).

Vocals, either SM58 for cabled or Beta 87A for radio (which I fooking love live). I'm not much of a fan of 58s but it's difficult to go wrong with them really. If you can get along with the top end, Beta 57's nice.

DI boxes, anything that doesn't break is good. More rubber = more life.

I think that once you get outside of the standard rock band, things get less defined. I don't think there's many "swiss army knife" mics out there other than the ones stated above.

Oh and if it's a one-mic-in-the-roof job, RSM 191 (I think that's the no.) is phenomenal, it's impressed a lot of people around here.

[ggunn]

I've got a bunch of Shure 548 (Unidyne IV) mic's that I use to mic up all our vocalists. I really like them.

[axeman69]

so you would prefer a d112 or m88 or beta91 for kick?

Audix D6?

[burnsy]

In the small venue that I got th choice of having to spec something cheap and hard working, I have used 58's for vocals all round 4 of , 2 57's (soon to be 3) , akg d112 for kick drum but im experimenting with 58's at the moment. Bass is normally DI'd but I put a spare kick mic on the cab just incase. Drums are a 7 pc samson kit which I have found to be ok for this small venue and they are clip ons so avoid the need for any more stands. Im pretty new to sound and havent tried many other mics. It's odd but in the theatre that I work in they dont have a wide range of mics just usual suspects.

[G. Hoffman]

Where the hells the love for the Beyer 201? My favorite drum mic, though I will admit that I'm not wild about it on guitars, and you usually have a 57 around somewhere. Hell, I have a couple in my workbox, in case I lose my hammer.

Oh, and the new 421's are crap. The original 421 is a god among mics, but the 421 II's are bad. Just...bad.



Gabriel

[Senap]

the 421 and 441 are perhaps the most exticulant workhorses of the industrial age, w.r.t. live stage sound. Got a bassist/doghouse? You're COVERED. Got a background vocalist? COVERED. Toms? COVERED. Need a nail hammered into the brick wall on stage left? C.O.V.E.R.E.D.

I'm in love.


dwoz

A fucking MEN!

But I would'nt use my 421 as a hammer. That's what Sennheiser made the MD-21 for.

[Spock]

Playing small places we don't need to much, mainly just vocals and a touch of other things.

Vocals are 2 SM58 and one EV357
D112 on the kick
I had 57 on the guitar cab until it got busted, so I've been using another 58 for now.

We have plent out the of the drummer (in fact I have to get him to stop bashing the hell out the cymbals) and the bass, and we also put a DI feed from my keys.

[bunnerabb]

Even the lamest 421 is better on a rack tom than a 57.

Yeah, I said it.

[pounce]

i'd use a 421 happily on toms, but i've also used the sennheiser 604s - they are super convenient and sound decent, ev 408's, and of course the ole 57. given the above list as typical live mics on toms, i'd probably grab the 604's just because they sound good, are small and easy to place, and set up quick. a trifecta of good reasons to go that way.

[AxeSlash]

Does anyone else have lots of fun with e604s picking up every rattle, fart and click of every mic cable/drum/mic interface happening on the kit? They seem very prone to mechanically transmitted noise - I usually find myself taping the XLR to the mic, then the cable to the clip and so on to try and stop all the buzzes and rattles.

Coupled to that, I prefer a more open sound on toms anyway...gimme a 57 instead and I'm happy. Never had any noise off them.

It's also too easy for a drummer to sit his cymbals right on top of a e604 when you're not looking and then you've got some serious backwash issues. Been there, done that, really didn't enjoy it. At least with a 57 it's big enough to guarantee a decent distance between the head of the mic and the nearest cymbal.

All of that said, I've never tried 421's on toms...maybe I'm missing out.

[pounce]

i'd say it's common to think of 421's as the go to tom mic.

[floodstage]

Beta 98 (clip ons) aren't too shabby on toms.

[Noiz Boy]

Hi there!

I'm new here and I wanted to contribute on this wonderful thread.:Thumbsup:

Personally I'm using these,

Kick In Beta 91
Kick out Audix D6
Snare top SM57
Snare Bottom E604
HH Km 185
Toms Beta 98
Underheads Km184
Bass Radial and Beta52
Guitars AT 4050 and SM57
Vocal mics mainly depending on the vocalist (beta87 or beta58 mostly)

Just droping my 2 cents...

Noiz Boy (from Belgium)

[graymc]

Mics I use:

Wife's 6 lady gospel group: 58's on everyone, cheap Bearinger condenser in the middle for them to gather around when the do accapella stuff.

Me: I use an SM57 on my own vocals. I like the way it makes my voice sound way thicker than it really it. Other than that I usually use 57s on guitar amps/etc.

I've never done anywhere big enough to have to mic drums. I always grab a DI from the bass player if his amp isn't big enough and DIs from any acoustic players.

My other gig doing sound for events at a local Christian camp: Audix OM-3s on all vocals, DIs off as many instruments as possible and a 57 on whatever is left.

[Comte de St Germain]

In my way of thinking, there are two possible choices for microphones in any given live sound reinforcement situation:


A) an SM57.


B) the wrong mic.


discuss.

dwoz

Personally I've found it to be (especially on vocals):

A. Matching mics

B. The right mics (not matching)


There was a time when I would requet certain mics for certain members of the band, the house guy would insist how fucked up the eq scenario wuld be if i did that.

The reply would be: "Fucked up it'll be then, make my masochistic side happy."

I personally don't give a shit (under a certain bar) what mics go on toms but the OHs (in a big enough venue) and vocal mics are where i want gratification.

That and no digital eqs.

Talk about a kink in a garden hose with a job description that reads KLUDGE.


A lil' while ago I showed up to do a John Hammond show with a 57 and 58 (his rider). It would have sounded amazing had i not had to deal with the newest of the Peavey electronic crossover/eq/compressor/audio damage modules that was 100% fucked. I got the tech on the phone explained what was happening and he said he would overnight me a replacement.

Funny, the show was in 1.5 hours.

So i completely rigged the crossover by ear, made the best out of it that I could, and told the rental company where they could stick that POS before I would ever do work with them again.

So, my answer is: The mics are the least of the problems in the world of live audio.

[Noiz Boy]

Beta 98 (clip ons) aren't too shabby on toms.

Some say that on the floor tom I doesn't work,
for me it's more than all right!

Some of you are maybe varying mics on toms depending on hi or low toms...

Noiz Boy

[micguy]

I got a thing for condensers (usually small ones, so they don't get hit so much) on toms. Particularly on the floor tom - less boomy stuff due to lower vibration sensitivity response. Anybody else have this affliction?

[burnsy]

So, my answer is: The mics are the least of the problems in the world of live audio.


You sorta contradicted yourself there because in one point you were telling a house sound guy that you wanted specific mics then below here you mention mics are the least of the problem in the world of live audio , which is it to be ?

Having just had a cracking night of mixing I would agree a good PA setup is essential but if you can get a good mix on a shit PA then a good PA will just enhance that if im not mistaken.

I believe the whole audio department has to be right for its purpose otherwise it wont work like it should.

oh for drums never use samson !! grrr

[Statick]

i'll answer your first point : it's not "to be one or the other". i'd agree completely, mics are the least of the worries - if the system is set up badly then the best mics in the world won't save you, you've got far more pressing issues to deal with.

ONCE you're dealing with a good quality rig, set up and crossed over correctly, and properly EQ'd, THEN you can worry about which mic you're using. until then, you're just fighting fire with a limp fish (or something).

if you can "get a good mix on a shit PA" then chances are you're just using channel EQs to compensate for bigger problems, and yes you have some skills for doing so, but the point is - overall problems should be sorted first, or you're just wasting your fucking time basically. if the rig sounds like a beach ball in a diving bell, then what's the point in splitting hairs over a mic ? it'll just sound like a different sized beach ball in a different shaped diving bell.

on the other hand, if the rig is properly tuned and sounds great straight away, then you the engineer get a chance to actually MIX something and not just compensate for other shortcomings - and then you'll appreciate a choice of mics, the same way a recording engineer does in the studio.

i'll also add that this is a rare fucking thing indeed, in my experience.

[Jason Phair]

I'd like to argue against the notion that 421's are the "go-to" mic of choice for toms.

Only if FOH dude is older than Satan.


And hell, even Satan likes 98's.




Now, few of the guys I see come through are gonna bitch if they get 421's. However, do they request them? Only if they also request a 3K, because that's the king of desks, man.

[pounce]

i probably use 421's because i'm old and i have them and they work great. but about half of the time i use either 608's or 408's and i'm happy with all of them.