WTF!

[Senap]

If somebody showed up with this neck I would have LMFBO.

:Confused:

Maybe it's all good? I dunno...

Discuss.

http://www.guyguitars.com/truetemperament/eng/tt_index.html

[Senap]

oh.... and check out the videos. It looks totally weird.

[conejito]

Whoa, a true temperament guitar (supposedly)! For once, an electric guitar might actually be in tune!

Judging by the sample videos, it looks playable and sounds very in-tune. Seems like it would take some getting used to, though.

I'm intrigued.

[Goes211]

In a similar vein...I'm the proud owner of this very guitar :

Kritz s909 with 'smilefrets' serial nr01 (http://www.kritz.com/engels/guitars/s/s909/s90901.html)

Check out the 'Smilefrets' link...it takes a while to get used to but it's actually quite comfortable.

Krtiz is a belgian luthier who does excellent work. I'm not crazy about the aesthetics of the guitar, but it sounds like a monster and plays like a dream.

[Trazan]

I don't mind new ideas...but, however much I twist my ears I still think that thing sounds friggin' out of tune! Especially the clean guitar chording in the second video. Could be the guitarists technique....whatever it is, it doesn't really sell the product :Confused:

[Goes211]

I hadn't checked out the videos...the guitar is indeed out of tune :Confused:

[TSTW]

They fucked up the neck and some smart arse said "okay guys, i think we can sell these"

[Kenny Gioia]

I actually read most of the site.

Quite insane, although interesting.

I kind of get different temperments but it's way too impractical for modern music IMHO.

I gotta respect the guy though.

Cheers.

[mandor]

A few thoughts:

1. Would be good for scales, single note lines, and such, but you'd have to be deformed to play a decent bar-chord.

2. Um...yeah...right. About as useful as "microtuning" my synth for eastern music.

2. Eh....I'll wait for the scalloped version :)

[Mixerpuppet]

How are drunk guitarists supposed to use it???


Gee... just looking at the fretboard sober makes me wanna hurl!


Good luck on repairing it locally :)

[Mixerman]

Well in the second video, the guitar is clearly out of tune. Then they have a differenly modified guitar on the third video, and that one sounds in tune, but if a guy played rock guitar like that in my session, I'd be shaking him and giving him my "reckless abandon" routine. Of course, if you play with reckless abandon, notes are going to fall out of tune. So in the words of Slipperman, whaddawegot?

You know, we're used to guitars the way they are, so they don't sound bad to us. What we as humans find to be in tune and out of tune is a matter of training. Currently, through the rampant use of chronologic tuning, we are becoming trained to hear a non-tempered scale. Music isn't about precision. It's about emotion.

Mixerman

[Calvin]

Even temperament instruments are out of tune by definition. Fretted instruments even more so (impossible to completely account for variables such as fretting finger pressure and such). But so what. Just shut up and play yer guitar (with reckless abandon to avoid shaken guitarist syndrome at the hands of MM)! :grin:

Another entry in the unusual fret department. This design has been around for a while and actually works quite well for its intended purpose (longer scale length for bottom strings and shorter for top). I've only played the six string version.

http://www.novaxguitars.com/

[blackieC]

It seems like every few years or so somebody comes along with some new way to "fix" the tuning problems with guitars, and none of them ever catch on.

Could it be because true temper tuning, while a lovely idea, won't allow you you be able to play more than one or two chords "in tune"?

Even on a true temper tuned keyboard. Play a C maj and you might just get a stiffy, play an A maj and watch it go away.

The western chromatic scale has been a workable comprimise for about four hundred years or so and I think that they just might be on to something.

There must be some reason that I favor guitars whose basic design hasn't changed in over fifty years.

And yes, those sample vids are out of tune as shit.

And the sticky keys on my new lappy are driving me fucking nuts.

[G. Hoffman]

Another entry in the unusual fret department. This design has been around for a while and actually works quite well for its intended purpose (longer scale length for bottom strings and shorter for top). I've only played the six string version.

http://www.novaxguitars.com/



It is also more ergonomic. Quite comfortable, actually.


As for the "tempered" fingerboards, well, um, I think that may be one of the worst ideas I've ever seen for a guitar. First of all, it could only ever be in tune for one or two keys, at best. More to the point, it would make dressing the frets properly completely impossible. If you look at the close-ups in the videos, the tops of the frets are really flat. This causes the fret to ride at the back edge of the fret, which means a) the string is not making contact where they intend it to, which means that the intonation is, well, wrong; and b) the string will rattle against the rest of the fret. Listen to that second video, and you will clearly hear several spots where that guitar is buzzing like crazy. Oh, and bending would be quite unpredictable, which I would find really fucking annoying.

Mind you, with as much reverb as they have on all of those recordings, it's pretty hard to tell if anything is in tune or not.


Gabriel

[conejito]

You guys make a good point that this guitar is only going to be in tune in one or two keys. That makes it almost useless, IMO.

And I wonder how it sounds when mixed with regular instruments - probably out-of-tune.

It's an interesting novelty, though.

[Calvin]

Gabriel:

You're absolutely right about the Novax fingerboard being very ergonomic. The first time I ever played a Novax-equipped guitar (I had never heard of, played, or seen one before), the builder told me to close my eyes, then he handed me the guitar and told me to keep my eyes closed while I played for a minute or two. Then he had me open my eyes and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. The fanned frets took no adjustment at all to play. The frets line up with one's fretting hand a lot better, especially at the lower positions. I wish now that I had ordered my Klein (my main guitar - see avatar) with the fanned frets. Oh well. At one point Mr. Novax was setting up necks for other guitar makers, but I don't think he's doing that any longer.

[G. Hoffman]

Gabriel:

You're absolutely right about the Novax fingerboard being very ergonomic. The first time I ever played a Novax-equipped guitar (I had never heard of, played, or seen one before), the builder told me to close my eyes, then he handed me the guitar and told me to keep my eyes closed while I played for a minute or two. Then he had me open my eyes and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. The fanned frets took no adjustment at all to play. The frets line up with one's fretting hand a lot better, especially at the lower positions. I wish now that I had ordered my Klein (my main guitar - see avatar) with the fanned frets. Oh well. At one point Mr. Novax was setting up necks for other guitar makers, but I don't think he's doing that any longer.



Well, I don't know that I would say NO adjustment, but certainly very little. Then again, the guitar I have with fanned frets (which Ralph slotted for me) is an eight strings, so that could well be why I had trouble adjusting to it. I also find that my fingers fall into line much better up the neck, though. Really, I find it very comfortable everywhere.

I don't think he is slotting fingerboards for other builders anymore, and I'm pretty sure he is not involved much in the day to day at Novax guitars at all. Last time I heard, he was well on his way to retirement. He does license people to use his patent, though. It is one of the few "new" ideas to come along which actually makes a lot of sense to me, though as conservitive as the guitar buying public is I'm afraid it will be quite some time before it catches on (if it ever does).


Gabriel

[Calvin]

I would imagine that the eight stringers would require some adjustment! I have trouble enough with six strings! :lol:

In all seriousness, the six string Novax neck requires ALMOST no adjustment. I could have easily gigged with that guitar the first day I tried it.

I agree that Ralph's invention is a great one. I might need to check into licensing the patent, but then I'd need to find someone willing to slot a fingerboard for me (hint hint). :Wink:

I guess the bridge might need some moving as well unless there's quite a bit of travel available for the string saddles. The whole project would probably end up being pretty expensive. Fun to think about, though.

[Unfcknblvbl]

Behold...the Arctopus and the Warr guitar.
I haven't heard a note of the band's music but it's my entry for WTF!?!

[Meriphew]

That's a guitar luthier who has too much time on his hands.

[otek]

First off, this type of "alternative fret system" is nothing new, in fact, I bet you Oudplayer could tell you it's been around for hundreds of years - even in the "modern" sense, I've seen variations on this theme since the 80's, Novax being one of them - een though the Novax system also adresses a completely different and in my mind more useful benefit, namely that of proper pitch/scale length relationship.

Second, it dictates that all guitarists/bass players in the band would have the same system, or guitars would be impossible to tune to each other.

Third, like Gabriel already said, beyond the novelty/exerimental value, it's impossible to get it in tune for more than maybe two different keys. If you're into standard rock/pop music, it makes little sense.

I'd take a meticulous standard fretjob by an experienced luthier any day.

[Fulcrum]

Some of these luthiers need to remember why we went to equal temperament to begin with.

[G. Hoffman]

Some of these luthiers need to remember why we went to equal temperament to begin with.


These are the guys who think of themselves as "artists." They loose site of the functionality, and in the process make the guitar useless. It's not an art, it's a craft, and we always need to keep in mind, first and formost, the art doesn't happen until it gets played.


Gabriel

[Senap]

It's not an art, it's a craft, and we always need to keep in mind, first and formost, the art doesn't happen until it gets played.

Gabriel

Frame-worthy!

[G. Hoffman]

I agree that Ralph's invention is a great one. I might need to check into licensing the patent, but then I'd need to find someone willing to slot a fingerboard for me (hint hint). :Wink:

I guess the bridge might need some moving as well unless there's quite a bit of travel available for the string saddles. The whole project would probably end up being pretty expensive. Fun to think about, though.


There are guys out there who will make up Novax fingerboards, and all of that. I don't know who is doing it right now, but I would bet that Steve Klien is still doing it. Ralph's license fee is (last I checked) $75, so it isn't all that bad, but the big problem I have with it is that he wants you to put his name on the guitar somewhere visible.

Also, there is at least one company making replacement necks for strats with fanned frets. I can't find them on their website, but Allparts at least USED to carry them.


Gabriel

[G. Hoffman]

Frame-worthy!


Naw, it is something that some guitar makers need to get tattooed on the inside of their eyelids, though.


Their are exceptions to that, by the way. Judy Threet (http://www.threetguitars.com/inlays.html) or Girt Laskin (http://www.williamlaskin.com/gallery2.php) ARE artists, but inlay art is a whole other thing, and it doesn't get in the way of the functionality of their guitars (which are very fine, in both of their cases).


Gabriel

[Cosmic Pig]

It don't matter wtf you do to the frets, some can play in tune and some can't. Some can tune a guitar and some can't. Most are stupid dumbasses who can't do either. You could throw autotuner motorized tuning heads and frets all bent out smiling frowning waggly tongued and what ever the fuck at them, it won't help.

Obviously their for the discerning guitarist who throws money at talent hoping something will stick to their chops. erg. I get tired of the numbnutz that come through the studio flashing fancy expensive guitars that can't play worth shit. Tired of idiots who will spend thousands on instruments and gear to avoid practicing. Shit that goes for AE's too.

Fucking useless titty fuckered goddam assole non-practicing fuckin hackorama idiots fuckin...wasting my precious fuckin time assole fuckin bastiges showing their stoooopid expensive crap as if it somehow legitimaizes their fucked up hack chops... fuck.

Sorry I just quit smoking. Seem to be ranting an awful lot. Quite popular about the household I am. Banished to the studio I also am.

Cos.

[otek]

Quite popular about the household I am. Banished to the studio I also am.

Speak like Yoda you even do. Funny, the things nicotine withdrawal does to people. :D

If there's a band coming in to do an album, I make sure they have every instrument they're planning to use checked out by a guitar tech approved by me.

I also many times have them modify their string gauges, for strictly rhythm guitar, putting on heavier gauges and using a wound G-string helps a lot (the wound strings are less succeptible to inadvertent bending) and players rarely have a big problem adjusting to them. Also, whammy bar gats are pretty much off limits for rhythm.

Unless the player in question has a problem with it (or clearly doesn't need it), I also tune every instrument myself, using a softsynth.

[Cosmic Pig]

Good tips from Otek they are, yes. I usually wind up tuning it for them by ear. If you can get it in tune for a G chord and halfway close for a D it's usually okay. I've been know to set up the neck and intonate too, but it's not often it helps. Definitely gonna try the heavier string thing.

Then you pass the guitar back to them and they immediately plaster their fingers to the neck so it looks like somebody threw a five legged squid at the fretboard under high G conditions, with strings wobbling precariously at the end of stray fingers in mid air, occasionally buzzing against frets, but mostly just hanging in midair like someone who lost horribly at cats cradle.

Then they strum a buzzing farting tragically out of tune pseudo-chord and say, "Gee this gold plated D'Aquisto has sweet tone eh?".

As the pirate with the steering wheel attached to his pants said, "Arr it's drivin' me nuts."

Cos.

[magicchord]

I'm either amused or appalled by how many local singer-songwriters cannot tune their guitars without some kind of electronic device.

[G. Hoffman]

I'm either amused or appalled by how many local singer-songwriters cannot tune their guitars without some kind of electronic device.



The fact of the matter is, the electronic tuner is responsible for more guitars being out of tune than anything I can think of. They are, quite simply, the worst possible way I can think of to tune a guitar. First of all, they are horibly inacurate, and second, even if they were acurate, it still wouldn't sound in tune.

Not to mention the fact that you shouldn't even call yourself a guitar player if you can't tune your guitar by ear. I mean, WTF!

Personally, I tune to a tuning fork. An experienced ear is more acurate than any tuner other than a Strobe, and it can make a judgement based on sound, not math (which not even a Strobe can do). I can understand the whole "the audience doesn't want to see you tune" (I don't buy it for a second, and I can be far more entertaining while tuning by ear than most people can be while stareing at a tuner), but they just don't work. Granted, if you are in a band you need to figure out what "in-tune" is going to be for that band, but at the very least any critical situation really should require tuning by ear.


Gabriel

[Brendo]

The fact of the matter is, the electronic tuner is responsible for more guitars being out of tune than anything I can think of. They are, quite simply, the worst possible way I can think of to tune a guitar. First of all, they are horibly inacurate, and second, even if they were acurate, it still wouldn't sound in tune.

I usually use a tuner to tune the low E and then tune the A, D and G by harmonics... I know the harmonics method puts the thinner strings flat by a certain amount, so I tune the high E's 12th fret harmonic to the 5th fret harmonic on the low E... the B string to the low E's 7th fret harmonic and the high E string's 7th fret harmonic... Strum a G chord and tweak the G until I no longer want to puke.

Does that sound like a fair method, or am I waaay off?

[G. Hoffman]

I usually use a tuner to tune the low E and then tune the A, D and G by harmonics... I know the harmonics method puts the thinner strings flat by a certain amount, so I tune the high E's 12th fret harmonic to the 5th fret harmonic on the low E... the B string to the low E's 7th fret harmonic and the high E string's 7th fret harmonic... Strum a G chord and tweak the G until I no longer want to puke.

Does that sound like a fair method, or am I waaay off?



Sounds reasonable to me.

The real trick, to my ear, is that you MUST tune to a chord. I'm really anal about it sometimes, and I have a few songs where I have to tune to one particular chord in the song. For instance. the way I play Sting's "Mad About You," is mostly pretty close to being popcorn guitar, so the exact pitches aren't that big of a deal, until you get to the bridge. But if I don't tune to the first chord in the bridge, I can't deal with it. So, I tune to that chord if I'm playing that song. But I'm really fucking picky, so hopefully you can get by with something a bit less anal.


Gabriel

[Goes211]

The fact of the matter is, the electronic tuner is responsible for more guitars being out of tune than anything I can think of. They are, quite simply, the worst possible way I can think of to tune a guitar. First of all, they are horibly inacurate, and second, even if they were acurate, it still wouldn't sound in tune.

Not to mention the fact that you shouldn't even call yourself a guitar player if you can't tune your guitar by ear. I mean, WTF!

Personally, I tune to a tuning fork. An experienced ear is more acurate than any tuner other than a Strobe, and it can make a judgement based on sound, not math (which not even a Strobe can do). I can understand the whole "the audience doesn't want to see you tune" (I don't buy it for a second, and I can be far more entertaining while tuning by ear than most people can be while stareing at a tuner), but they just don't work. Granted, if you are in a band you need to figure out what "in-tune" is going to be for that band, but at the very least any critical situation really should require tuning by ear.


Gabriel

[response only meant for LIVE situations]
Ahh...yes...hmm...
In our set, the first 3 tunes are segued. After those 3 songs I pretty much need a FAST SILENT tune up, 'cause I can assure you my well setup guitar will be out of tune (even slightly) after the bashing I'm giving it. When playing very energically...the technique goes a touch by the wayside. There's no way in hell I can pull out a tuning fork and tune by ear. No time. Not to mention...you can't ask a gig audience to go silent because you 'need to hear the tuning fork'... I've got 15 to 20 secs to quickly retune. There are also spots in some songs in which I don't play the intro or some part and I have a written cue on my playlist that THAT is where I should check my tuning. My take is that if your guitar is well set up and you've got new strings (I pull on them for 15 to 30 minutes before the gig until they don't move too much anymore) it's workable - BTW : new strings on my 2 live guitars. Each gig. No discussion. They are DEAD after a gig. While it's a given that we're going to need to retune, there's nothing I hate more than watching a guy retune for a minute. I don't doubt you can entertain the crowd while doing so, I simply haven't seen it being pulled off very often. Mind you, I'll often retune by ear during a song. You can be anal about it but at some point it starts to sound as a lack of confidence. Tuning shouldn't become a systematic 'ritual' you need to be able to start playing. There are of course no rules, and a good entertainer can get away with anything. But if you want to come across as having your shit together, stopping to tune by ear between each song does not look too great. In a live situation, the BOSS TU-something is my friend.

[Senap]

Tuners with a mute-function should be standard in live-situations.

I hate when guitar players tune on full blast between songs.

[graymc]

Not to mention the fact that you shouldn't even call yourself a guitar player if you can't tune your guitar by ear. I mean, WTF!
Gabriel

Amen. Most of the guys who play at my church cannot tune without a tuner. In fact, there're several guys there who can't even change their own strings. They either take it to the music store during the week or come and find me 10 minutes before they're supposed to play and ask me to replace a broken string for them.

It's sad how a lot of young guitar players these days are totally dependent on someone else.

[G. Hoffman]

[response only meant for LIVE situations]But if you want to come across as having your shit together, stopping to tune by ear between each song does not look too great. In a live situation, the BOSS TU-something is my friend.



Well, it really depends a lot on the situation. I mean, you have to understand that I can get in tune with my guitar pretty quite. Also, I can tune FAST. Most of the time when my guitar goes a little out, I can get it in tune in 10-20 seconds or less, so I can do it just as fast as a guy with a tuner. But then, I spend a LOT of time tuning guitars in noisy enviroments (nothing like tuning to the pitch of the band saw). Also, when I play out (which is not often), it's just me and my guitar. I tune to my fork before I start, and from there on out, it is all just realative to the A string.

IF you are going to use a tuner on stage (and many people feel they need to), there are two things you need to do which most bands don't seem to do. First, you need to learn how to tune by ear for your own style (it is very style dependent), and learn how to replicate that with your tuner of choice (it probably won't be all green lights). Second, you need to make sure that all players on the stage are tuning to the same reference. There is nothing I find more anoying than a couple of guitar players and a bass player, each of whom is (almost) in tune with their own instrument, but NOT with any of the other players on stage.


Gabriel