Subwoofer questions... sorry, sorta a gear thread

[Stick]

So, I'm realizing that I'm not hearing what's going on in the LOW low end. I need a sub, I think.

I'm mixing on Genelec 1031As. My room is good. That's not the issue.

I don't have the cash to spring for the super cool Genelec sub. Gimme some "project studio" priced options. How does said sub cable in? I'm coming off a StudioComm 50/51 set up... so direct from that to the back of the speakers. Does the audio run through the sub (and it's crossover) before the speakers? Does it have to be split off somehow? These are my questions.

[archtop]

There are many options, many subs will also accept speaker
level as well as line level.

I have on my console an aux moniter send, that act like a second main out . So it's getting everything, and I can control up, down, or off, or mute the mains and just hear the sub.

And mine's just a $150 P.O.S. comsumer powered 12.
it not great, but I too, like you wanted to at least glimpse
what was going on down there, and even though, I'm sure it's not accurate or clean, my room has it's own goofy lowend
things happening, that would be smarter addresing than a better quality sub.

[AxeSlash]

I've got a cack Samson P.O.S., that ain't great, but I feed it through an (equally cheap) crossover/EQ first that compensates for all the delay/level/phase/other issues that happen between that & my Reveals.

The other advantage is that I have a "mixing" preset in the xover and a "client" preset in it. Can you guess what the "client" one does? ;)

It's a crap sub, but it's better than not having it; my mixes have improved a lot down there now that I know vaguely what's going on.

Just stop yourself from turning it up too much or you'll end up with bottom-shy mixes.

Smaartlive is your friend; you're into system tech territory here, live sound guys may be able to help you out somewhat.

I'd certainly suggest getting a crossover for it, because otherwise you may be limited to what the sub itself is set to. E.g. if your top boxes go down to 80 and your sub goes up to 160 you might have some absolute carnage going on between those frequencies, depending on the boxes.

[MacGregor]

So, I'm realizing that I'm not hearing what's going on in the LOW low end. I need a sub, I think.

I'm mixing on Genelec 1031As. My room is good. That's not the issue.

I don't have the cash to spring for the super cool Genelec sub. Gimme some "project studio" priced options. How does said sub cable in? I'm coming off a StudioComm 50/51 set up... so direct from that to the back of the speakers. Does the audio run through the sub (and it's crossover) before the speakers? Does it have to be split off somehow? These are my questions.

AFAIK Genelec 1031A are active monitors, therefore you want
an active sub, too.

Things to consider:


sub should have a direct out so your Genelec 1031A still get
the unmodified line signal.

sub should have a variable low-pass EQ.

sub should be able to shift phase.


2+3 give you the possibility to match the sub to your monitors
as good as possible.
And be prepared to spend a day or two moving the sub around.
Subwoofer placement IS important.

Like Axe said, cheapy ones like Samson (see here (http://www.sweetwater.com/c407--Samson--Subwoofers)
aren't the best on this planet, but still much better
than no sub at all.

Mac

[Stick]

Thanks for the help... I think you're right on, Mac. Adjustablity is a key...

Yes the 1031As are active. They also have a set of roll off dip switches, so there's some adjustability at the speaker. You guys with the "cheap" subs, do you notice any degredation of the sound by running through the sub's crossover?

[Immanuel]

I haven't tried this myself, but it looked plausible to my eyes, when I read about it some time ago.

There was one guy claiming that 4 or 5 low cost subs often are a better solution than 1 high quality sub. The trick is, that you set them up, so that they all hit different room nodes. This way, the bass level should be less affected by the room and less affected by listener position. Also, when each sub does not have to play so loud, it will distort less and compress less than when running alone.

[Tim Halligan]

And be prepared to spend a day or two moving the sub around.
Subwoofer placement IS important.


Bingo.

The old "whack the sub anywhere - because bass is omni" theory is bunk.

According to Roger Quested, we can get directional cues within a room down to 55hz.

Cheers,
Tim

[Jeff_C]

I just added the M-Audio BX10s sub to my room for all the same reasons you mentioned, Stick. Besides the $400 street price, I liked the fact that this unit has a footswitch which bypasses the crossover and disables the sub. You can easily hear your mix just as you do now or add the crossover and sub.

My only complaint is that you get a little 1/2 second volume bump when you switch the sub on and off. It's not deafening or damaging to your equipment or anything. I just wish it was a seamless switch back and forth to simplify A/B comparisons.

Here's a link http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/BX10s-main.html

Jeff_C

[AxeSlash]

I just hit the mute switches on my xover ;)

[Stick]

I just added the M-Audio BX10s sub to my room for all the same reasons you mentioned, Stick. Besides the $400 street price, I liked the fact that this unit has a footswitch which bypasses the crossover and disables the sub. You can easily hear your mix just as you do now or add the crossover and sub.

Jeff_C

Yeah, that BX10 is the "cheap" sub I've narrowed it down to for exactly that reason. The footswitch, and the variable crossover.

I think I'm going to go for it and try it out at least. At the worst, it'll make watching movies in the control room a little more fun, or you'll be seeing a cheap sub on ebay. HA!

I like that idea of multiple subs placed around the room... but again, since we're after "cheap"... :Roll eyes:

[Joel DuBay]

Hey Stick,

How is the room? Are you dealing with any room resonances?
What happens when you take your mix to the car?

Some times, an untreated room can mess up an otherwise good recording. I recently had a client who treated his room and mixed a record with his sub "on". Well, he ended up remixing the whole record because the bass was so tight and focused in his room (after treatment) that the record he just finished ended up with no bass! Kinda funny, but it shows you what can be achieved if the room sounds tight and focused. He went back and remixed with NO sub and the final prodiuct was well balanced, tight and punchy.

Something to consider about perhaps?




Cheers,

Joel DuBay
www.readyacoustics.com

[Stick]

Hi Joel,

The room is good. Check it out on my website on the link below. Plenty of bass trapping, but it's not too dead, as I left a lot of hard walls.

I can get things to translate fine, but it's not as easy as I think it should be. And extreme low-end is still a guess. And I've ordered the sub that has a footswitch to take it out of the chain if it turns out that I really only need it for diailing that extreme low-end. We'll see how it goes.

I'm actually more and more convinced that the issue is really the 1031s, but I don't want to invest in a new set of speakers, because I know I'm going to want to upgrade ($$$$) from the Genes.

Thanks for the help.

[Joel DuBay]

Yow!

That is a sweet lookin' place. Pics are great too.

I'm thinking sub placement is at issue here as some others might have suggested, but just out of curiousity, what are the walls made of, filled with? I'm certain you're covered as you mentioned, but my curiosity never quits. (help!)

When I did Jeff Juliano's room, we tried lots of placement options for his sub. We ended up placing it under the desk but somewhat closer to his front wall. We then straddled some absorption panels (bass traps in their simplest form) in the horizontal floor/ wall corner with the sub just forward of that. That was the magic bullet in that case. (looks around for his camera as if that will help, doh!)

I've got pics of this somewhere, but you probably get the idea.

It sounds like it might just be an issue with placement in any case. And, the best way to work through that is to experiment. It sounds like you have everything else worked though, the place looks fanastic!


Joel DuBay
www.readyacoustics.com

[Stick]

Thanks Joel,

Yeah, I haven't got the sub yet... probably a week or so.

The places where the walls are fabric covered in the Control Room are packed with rockwool all the way back to the corners "Superchunk style". Directly behind the speakers, the little jut out halfway back on the right wall, and two BIG bass traps on either side of the Murphy Bed, and then the underside of the bed is slatted, so the bed acts as an absorber too. The center of the front wall/window, the angled side walls and the two opposing short walls in the back of the room are painted drywall. (Those are an issue... I need to treat one of them, there's a nice ring if you're standing between them.) And the ceiling is fabric covered rockwool, above the listening position and the same thing broken up a little in the back of the room.

I'll be curious to see if and where the sub works...

[BigBubbaJ]

Have you verified that you, your sub and your monitors aren't at the notorious 25% or 50% spots with respect to the rooms length?

I monitor on the Blue Skys which have a sub, and finding the correct placement and calibrating that puppy properly took forever. Then, once I had it calibrated level wise, I was still not hearing the proper bass response even in a treated room, and with the help of an acoustics expert I discovered that I was sitting smack dab in the middle of 25%... moved my mix position a few feet towards the front wall.. and WHAM. My bass returned. stupid little things all add up...

Cheers!

[Scott R. Foster]

I built one of these kits once.. solid performance, very versatile, great value.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CATID=48&ObjectGroup_ID=536

BTW here is a good article on sub placement:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/subwoofer-placement-the-place-for-bass-part-1

[Bob Olhsson]

The only way I've ever experienced subs being a reliable mixing or mastering tool is using one for each main speaker located at the same position. In other words, turning each small speaker into a big speaker!

Single subs, "bass management," or subs used in "more flattering" locations in the room are a kind of hype that comes right back around and bites you. I heard a demo of a digitally-eq'd monitor system recently that was a real hoot. You could choose between "bass managed" or each monitor eq'd to full range. It was plain as day that there was absolutely no translation at all going on between the two ways of setting up the low end. The emperor was stark naked!

[Joel DuBay]

I simply have to agree with Bob about subs. I mean, i like them, and the way they feel when you get clobbered by them, but in terms of mix translation, I often think they are unnecessary and a hinderance.
When I was building Studio B (after A), I wanted to plop a sub in there, and almost did it just to have something to switch on once in a while.... but, (of course) I was considering the treatment of the room. And as such, when all was said and done, a standard speaker set up was the best option, and all the bass I wanted was there after mix.

Regardless, MANY folks use a sub and like it. I am just not one of them and (more importantly) probably too old school to use it correctly.

Joel DuBay
www.readyacoustics.com

[Ethan Winer]

Brian,

> The room is good. Check it out on my website on the link below. Plenty of bass trapping <

Excellent, and having a lot of bass trapping makes integrating a sub a lot easier too.

Personally, I prefer mains that can reach down to below 40 Hz with no sub, versus smaller mains that need a sub to get down low enough. In a full range speaker, the drivers are all close together so the arrival times are similar. But with a sub, no matter where you put it frequencies around the crossover point will come from at least three different locations and distances. This pretty much guarantees peaks and nulls, and that's on top of all the other causes of peaks and nulls in a room.

--Ethan