fancy schmancy recording schools...

[vanityaffair]

i was having a conversation with a friend of mine who went to a particular recording school near orlando, florida....

i posed the idea of running a studio with a control-24, proper microphones, a decent amount of outboard equipment, and the proper computer/plugins sufficient to make a good sounding record. this prompted actual anger in him, who responded with some long-winded harangue about how if the desk doesn't read amek, ssl, or have the word neve somewhere on it, it isn't a 'real' studio.

am i crazy to think that if i can spend 8 grand on a system that will give me 16 focusrite pres (albeit not the best money can get you), plenty of control over my operation, and can make a good sounding recording out of it, i'm not merely running (in his words) a 'project studio?'

and if i am not crazy, is it these schools that turn well-meaning aspiring AE's into recording snobs?

the last thing he said before we moved onto other things was "if you can spend 8 grand, why not spend a hundred?"

[David Aurora]

your friend is a cocksmoker.

ask him how many graduates from his school this year. then ask him how many big $$ studios there are around. then call him a fuckwit and ask him how much of his time he thinks is gonna be spent on the ultra expensive gear when theres that many graduates all fighting for the same thing. not including previous graduates and especially engineers who are already frequenting these facilities who have enough respect from bands/labels to be given the option of using that gear. cause i dont know many people who would hire a recording school dude in a studio that costs someones kids yearly education per day when theres guys with 10/20 years experience already working from those rooms.

therefore, your friend might calm down when he demands ssl, and the band shows him their portastudio.

p.s. in saying all this.....the only thing i liked about the control 24 was vegas mode. but it still beats sitting around wanking off to posts on gearsluts waiting for some famous band to bust down your door and beg you to record their album at the fuckin record plant or some shit cause they heard you refuse to use regular patch leads and demand solid coprolite connectors on every module

[Brendo]

i was having a conversation with a friend of mine who went to a particular recording school near orlando, florida....

i posed the idea of running a studio with a control-24, proper microphones, a decent amount of outboard equipment, and the proper computer/plugins sufficient to make a good sounding record. this prompted actual anger in him, who responded with some long-winded harangue about how if the desk doesn't read amek, ssl, or have the word neve somewhere on it, it isn't a 'real' studio.

am i crazy to think that if i can spend 8 grand on a system that will give me 16 focusrite pres (albeit not the best money can get you), plenty of control over my operation, and can make a good sounding recording out of it, i'm not merely running (in his words) a 'project studio?'

We actually have a Control 24, a DM2000, an 02R and a Tascam desk in at JMC... some audio schools have more sense than others - we teach analog, digital, control surfaces... so a whole bunch of different things - and the concepts can be scaled to a desk of any size.

And they're also quite realistic about things.

And, I know half my class will not pass this year.

Etc... there was a thread about recording schools somewhere on here just recently, have a look.

Control 24 is fun but the preamps suck.

[David Aurora]

We actually have a Control 24, a DM2000, an 02R and a Tascam desk in at JMC... some audio schools have more sense than others - we teach analog, digital, control surfaces... so a whole bunch of different things - and the concepts can be scaled to a desk of any size.

And they're also quite realistic about things.

And, I know half my class will not pass this year.

Etc... there was a thread about recording schools somewhere on here just recently, have a look.

Control 24 is fun but the preamps suck.

whats the dm2000 like to work on? i always thought it seemed pretty cool but i havent had a chance to have a crack on one

[Brendo]

don't know yet! it's brand spankers. still actually waiting on an i/o card from yammy...

i'll let you know in about a week and a half when i've had a play with it. i think we're having it set up just like the control 24 for starters though, so just as a rack of pres and a control surface for PT. we won't get into the more advanced features until further down the track.

its been described as an 02R on steroids, though...

[David Aurora]

keep me posted on that man

[Brendo]

sure... i hear clicktrack has one?

[otek]

Vanityaffair,

In all fairness, last I checked Full Sail had a number of Pro Tools systems, and several digital consoles. It seems like your friend hasn't been paying much attention in class.

Guns don't kill people. And I don't think recording schools make them into schmucks.

Whether they are schmucks for attending one in the first place is a much debated issue. :D


otek

[Brendo]

PLENTY of schmucks attend recording school. And they get through, because the answers to the exams are spoonfed to them. Half my class... fuck it, three quarters.... are only there because they rode other people's coattails to get to this point.

They'll fail. It's much stricter this year, even though the pass mark has been lowered. And there's no more spoonfeeding, and more independent learning expected.

The problem is though, that there's also guys who are enthusiastic, but take everything you say as gospel - if you say "you might want to try a compressor on that vocal, it's pretty dynamic, and she gets lost a bit here" it becomes "you must always compress every vocal track ever".

So I think your friend is in this group. The "record by numbers" group, who fail to pick up concepts, and instead just pick up a formula, from which they cannot deviate or else all hell breaks loose.

[eagan]

I have a gut feeling hunch that Brendo has nailed a whole widespread class of type of behavior in the third paragraph there.

Mr. Fullsail might just fall right into that pretty neatly.

So, Mister Affair, I'm curious. Did your fuckwit friend with the glorious delusions of grandeur offer, after making his last comment, to FRONT THAT $100K TO YOU for this studio that meets his standards?

If not, I humbly offer the suggestion to tell him to go pound sand up the old bunghole and enjoy his issues of Mix, and then go piece together what you can and work on learning to do what you can with that. See recent post from Mr. Aurora on realism in getting going on recording and getting on with it.

Stepping aside from that, we could probably get into stuff like maybe a pile of Focusrites might not be a great basis for things, either, but that's a whole other can 'o worms.

Actually, you know what? Never mind me. I'm just some goober who's never done anything in anyplace that wouldn't probably be described as a "project studio".

Bring your pal around, and maybe some of the cats here who have spent mondo many hours of their lives hands on with bazillion input Neves and whatnot can have fun telling him what a doofus he is on this.


JLE

[Brendo]

I have a gut feeling hunch that Brendo has nailed a whole widespread class of type of behavior in the third paragraph there.

I actually had one guy asking me which mic to buy for vocals, what for overheads blah blah... I later worked out that he was going to buy an LDC and dedicate it only to vocals - and never use it on anything else, etc.

It took a while to explain to him the benefits of getting mics that are good on a number of sources, especially when on a limited budget - y'know, common sense stuff like instead of buying 10 crap mics which are ok on only one thing, buy 4 or 5 decent ones which are more flexible.

[vanityaffair]

oh, his delusions of grandeur are NOT to be trifled with. i firmly believe that he's expecting somebody ELSE to front him an ASSLOAD of money based on his...uhhhh....training?

as far as the focusrite question goes, i'm sure they aren't the best, maybe not even better than most. one, i feel comfortable working on the C24. I've made a couple of records on it that I like, and it's an easy surface to work with. I'm also on a budget, and I'm looking for the most all-around bang for my precious buck. So having a control surface, monitoring, sends/returns, and preamps to boot in the same package is very appealing.

Were I to back off on this idea, where should i go? microphones and outboard are not an issue (my business partner has a bunch of stuff from previous jobs, and various other things he basically stole from a guy who was looking to get out of the business). I'm looking for a setup that has enough preamps for a fairly complex drumkit (12+ mics), a decent control surface, and the monitor in/out stuff that is necessary. I'm sitting on a pair of ns10's at the moment, and i already have it tuned to my CR.

EDIT: it should be noted that i primarily work with bands in the 'alternative scene.' lotsa loud tube amps (despite my constant fights for the bands to turn the gain back a bit when tracking 3 rhythm guitar tracks), screamers or really high pitched singers (the dichotomy of those two still astounds me), and big damn overdriven svt bass rigs. you get the idea.

[Brendo]

would you be running this on HD or with a 002?

[vanityaffair]

HD, i'm about to order an accel 2 set, PCI board.

[Brendo]

cool. that's the exact same C24 setup we have at JMC.

[airborne]

I have a gut feeling hunch that Brendo has nailed a whole widespread class of type of behavior in the third paragraph there.

Case in point. Tracking drums recently with an SAE student in the room. Getting kik sounds..

Him:"Sweet dude.. but.. have you got a compressor on it?"

"No.."

"Oh, um. Why are you tracking kik without a compressor?"

[vanityaffair]

haha he actually does THAT the smart way, trying to get a good raw sound before any of the processing crap...a friend of mine is the exact opposite, does the vast majority of everything, including automation, in the middle of tracking. he sets up his eq's before he even tracks guitars.

[Brendo]

youre missing the point there...

the point is not all kick drums need compressing.

[eagan]

haha he actually does THAT the smart way, trying to get a good raw sound before any of the processing crap...a friend of mine is the exact opposite, does the vast majority of everything, including automation, in the middle of tracking. he sets up his eq's before he even tracks guitars.

OK, now I think you're just yanking our chains to see what sort of fun ensues here. You can't possibly be associating with people with their heads that far up their ass.


JLE

[Brendo]

OK, now I think you're just yanking our chains to see what sort of fun ensues here. You can't possibly be associating with people with their heads that far up their ass.


JLE

I'm saddened to say that such people actually do exist, until i, or someone else, beats some sense into them.

[vanityaffair]

it is absolutely true, mixergod strike me down if i'm lying.

i allow him SOME growing room, the kid is 19 and learning how to do it as he goes along totally isolated from the recording community. i sent him here, and to the original slipperman rants, and he just turned SM's frequency chart into a gospel eq template. good intentions be damned.

[eagan]

OK, I'll say what many are probably thinking now.


VA's pal obviously needs a little time in an apprenticeship with the Slipperman himself.

It should either straighten him out or kill him, I'd guess.

Either is fine.


:lol:


JLE

[knightsy]

i posed the idea of running a studio with a control-24, proper microphones, a decent amount of outboard equipment, and the proper computer/plugins sufficient to make a good sounding record.

I did a nice record last month that was tracked at a studio pretty much exactly as you described (although this studio had a huge live room, which certainly helped). Go for your life.

[vanityaffair]

VA's pal obviously needs a little time in an apprenticeship with the Slipperman himself.

i imagine it would remain a great learning experience, even in the grave. i'd love to learn this stuff from a ruthless professional, rather than the fuckwads i have to work with who don't give a rat's ass what it sounds like, as long as they can bill for an extra two hours of work.

and thank you knightsy for the vote of confidence in the setup i described earlier. now if only i could convince my friend that you can make a good record without spending more money than he will realistically ever see in his lifetime.

today he totally shat on avalon preamps. i will leave that where it lies.

[eagan]

Well, what, you said your friend is 19?

There IS always the chance that, sometime within the next few years or so, things will click inside his obsessive little brain, and the dawning realization will come.

That is, that, chances are, the $100K or so he insists upon is probably not likely to drop into his lap anytime soon, if ever, just because of his special, special qualifications of having attended a recording school.

And then, he might decide to just say what the fuck, and do what the rest of us do. Find what you can work with and then work with what you have.


JLE

[Donovan Murphy]

I HATE these kids and totally accept that because I am jealous.

I've worked my ass off since I was 12 starting with two tape players and a radio shack RCA mixer. Today I'm putting together the last peices to an HD3 system. I wish my parents had put out the money and most importanly the faith in me to pay for such a college. Now I'm trying to save money to attend Pro Tools training.

I work for Apple in their online sales support chat team. Every two or three days I get one of these kids who know NOTHING about recording and send me "I'm going to <i>big expensive recording school</i> and my parents are buying me an Apple notebook for recording...which one should I get?"

Yes, I'm jealous. Yes, I'm bitter. Yes, I hate that my parents do not support me in my recording carrier even though I've been involved in bands/recording for the past 8 years.

Enjoy your $40K+ recording school because I'm going to hold on to the knowledge I scour from recording books, DVDs, online, expereince and from others more then you.

[vanityaffair]

I HATE these kids and totally accept that because I am jealous.

no joke man, its enough to make me squirm. and I'M the guy who has to talk to these schmucks on a regular basis.

for the record, i went to ucf in their 'recording arts program' because i wanted a "real" education as well. well, not me. the people who fucked to make me (same people who signed the checks that paid my tuition) wanted that. i just wanted my damn PT certification so i could learn all the other stuff the right (read: hard) way, SPECIFICALLY so i don't turn out like my friend. he's gonna go through the first 5 or 6 years of his career thinking that HE should be the engineer and not the guy who cleans toilets because he went to some school and learned it.

do places like full sail and the like have a class at the end where they tell you to forget most of what you learn, and that you aren't gonna get anywhere saying that you went to a place where someone told you the 'right' angle to put a guitar mic at, or the 'right' way to record a drumkit? if not, i offer myself to tell these kids that the real world is based on product, not training.

i could have gone to full sail, la recording school, IADT, NYU Clive, and MTSU, known pro tools down to the ones and zeros, and still made shitty records.

whatever happened to hard work and good instincts? lazy ass kids *i am a kid myself, but i don't want to be, if that makes any sense*

[FredSanford]

I also have a friend/client who graduated from Full Sail. He doesn't do much recording or mixing, he gets me to do that for him :lol: because even though I am virtually self-taught and still very green he prefers my work than his own. It is quite the opposite of your situation. This guy is also a bit older and maybe that has something to do with it and also maybe the fact that he is an artist trying to work with a limited budget and still get good recordings.

Get what you can afford and buy better stuff later as you can. Make your friend listen to your great sounding mixes that you made on less than superior gear and eventually he will shut the fuck up.

[David Aurora]

.......Now I'm trying to save money to attend Pro Tools training.....

sorry but this is fucking lame and im sick of seeing people fall for these pro tools courses and books and shit. launch pro tools. scour the menus. rtfm if ya get stuck. congratulations! youre trained and you just saved a couple grand. and you have learned all the relevant menus from your own perspective, not "the guy said click file, then scroll down to 'save session copy in' and click blah blah blah". youve actually sat there and gone "ok.....i want to archive this session....what are my options? hmmm....save session copy, yeah that sounds like what i wanna do......yeah ill click save all audio files.....and yeah fade files.....dont need to save the plugin settings folder though because my rough mix sucks anyway and im not gonna need these preset folders at the other studio....etc". jesus, do people read books and do courses on how to shit these days too or what? no offense dude, this isnt personal ive just seen so many people talk about "pro tools certification" and shit like that and just stood there speechless. its not a hard program. within an hour or so of playing round you should be able to record and mix a band. within a few sessions you should get your editing chops down. browse a few forums and youll find some of the more useful shortcut keys. what else could you possibly need to study about protools?

[MacGregor]

Yes, I'm jealous. Yes, I'm bitter. Yes, I hate that my parents do not support me in my recording carrier even though I've been involved in bands/recording for the past 8 years.


Don't be so.
All people I know who had NO easy support when they started
their career and who successfully went through all that shit
became much better <insert your favorite profession here> than
equal talented people with support.
The word appreciation comes to mind...

BeenThereDoneThatMac

[jerryskid]

I took an eight week course at a recording school..and basically thats all you need....anyone who goes to Full Sail for 2 years is just throwing money away...I did learn alot at recording school, but the best part is it looks good on a resume...which got me into radio production....and the rest is history.......:grin:

[lebouche]

I took an eight week course at a recording school..and basically thats all you need....anyone who goes to Full Sail for 2 years is just throwing money away...I did learn alot at recording school, but the best part is it looks good on a resume...which got me into radio production....and the rest is history.......
I think Jerry should be awarded an honourary degree in concert going(to add to his resume).....200 GD concerts!

Don't be jealous...you'll appreciate things more for having acheived them yourself. Maybe your parents belive you are capable of making it on your own Donovan.:Thumbsup:

[Tim Halligan]

Recording schools have their place.

The value to the student varies from country to country...but hopefully the thing they all have in common is teaching these students how to learn.

The real important stuff should be drilled into them:

Signal flow
Fault finding
A smattering of theory
...and most importantly - studio etiquette...ie: knowing when to ask a question of the engineer (Hint: Not during a stressful tracking or mixing session), and when to keep your fucking cake-hole shut (Hint: Almost always. When I want your ill-formed opinion, I'll beat it out of you :Twisted: ).

Everything else can and should be learned on the job.

Cheers,
Tim

[airborne]

I am just finishing secondary school this year, and my very limited recording experience is enough for me to know I want to go on and be an AE. I was going to go to recording school, but after a lot of thinking and talking to people (About thgings that are coming up on this thread among others) I realized I'd much rather study something else at uni while keeping my recording hobby, hopefully getting a part time job somewhere that will help me learn the craft better. Turns out I'm studying electric & electronic engineering in London.

[Tim Armstrong]

Turns out I'm studying electric & electronic engineering in London.

Which will make you a hell of a lot more employable, both in general and in the recording studio world...

Cheers, Tim (who has a 2-year degree in General Studies and brewed beer professionally for several years, which leaves me underqualified for practically everything!)

[airborne]

I doubt electronic engineering will do much for my employability in the studio circle.

[eagan]

Yes, I hate that my parents do not support me in my recording carrier even though I've been involved in bands/recording for the past 8 years.


OK.

So, what's a recording carrier?

Is this some kind of little tote bag thing or something? Or maybe some larger metaphorical thing involving support?

Ah, hang on. Might this have been meant to say "career"?


Yeah, alright, so you've gone into this because the writing/publishing/editorial career went south.

More seriously, I'm just gently introducing a little item that might or might not be so apparent in mom and dad funded recording school. Silly little dumb mistakes in the studio will get people fucking with you. Depending on circumstances, maybe fucking intensely with you.

You might not get that fully in that "Pro Tools Made E-Z!" course you're eyeing wistfully.

Far better to attend the Ekko School of Moist Pro DAW Software and Social Graces, maybe.


JLE

[Tim Halligan]

I doubt electronic engineering will do much for my employability in the studio circle.

...and you'd know this how?

:Twisted:

Warning: Large dose of reality to follow...

With or without an electronic engineering degree, your chances of finding gainful employment - the kind you seem to be dreaming of...living wage...making cool music...blah blah blee - in this supposed "studio circle" is basically nil.

But, your chances are marginally better with the degree.

The degree comes with a cool added bonus: you can work almost anywhere...in any field - not just recording - and make a good living...which you might want to think about if you ever want to get married, have kids, buy a house...live a normal life...

You're young now - so maybe those issues aren't looming large on your radar - but trust me, they will become a major issue for you in later years.

In short, get the degree. Stop whining. Have a life.

Cheers,
Tim...your little ray of bitter sunshine :D

[eagan]

After just a tiny ration of shit for Donovan because if you can't spell "career" the idea of having one is just a touch funny....

To follow up on what Tim said, there's something that strikes me about all this stuff. Not just in this thread, but pretty much any time this general subject comes up.

I get a definite impression (somewhat confirmed by Brendo's comments about his experiences in teaching people) about the view of some of the people that tend toward signing up for recording schools.

That is, that whole huge mobs of them seem to take the view that it's all about learning a list of tricks and methods. Do this. Do that. Do it like this. If this comes up, Plan A. If that comes up, Plan B. Like VA's pal and his routine of "OK, I'm going to track guitar, so it's time to get my 'guitar EQ' set up".

Fuck all that.

This is preaching to the choir for the most part, but knowing there are lots of people rolling through reading.....

If nothing else, what fucking good does it do you to learn some standard list of methods and tricks and processes and what buttons to push where, when, sometime later, you suddenly have different tools to work with? Different rooms? And, dare we even think of this, different people playing different music?

What you need is general background knowledge of how stuff works and and not just what it does but a little of how and why. I mean, mostly, stuff that really doesn't have to have any kind of "recording school" curriculum involved at all. The physics involved in making sound and propagation of it. Electronics.

Stuff that will allow you to not just memorize rote lists of "methods", but actually think about NEW stuff you encounter and maybe even understand it. Stuff that might even help you think about stuff and think of new things that are not taught to 5000 other goofballs a year earnestly asking "how do I compress a kick drum?".

Stuff you can then take and apply to recording as you get into actually doing some recording.

This all applies to the other common side of the "recording school, or not?" debates, which says basically forget recording schools, learn stuff "on the job" as an apprentice. That's cool for a lot of things but I think the same matters come into play in that route. Some basic stuff is helpful to know before somebody just starts "showing your stuff" on the fly and you're supposed to absorb it. If you don't know some technical and musical stuff beforehand, it will probably just end up as a way of learning standardized ways of doing stuff by rote, only in a different setting.

Fuck training videos on how to get around Pro Tools or anything like that. Learn about what you're going to DO with Pro Tools, or any other DAW software that you happen to find in front of you. And so on.

Lots of stuff changes in time in terms of the specific tools around and what's going to be recorded with them.

What's NOT going to change is the laws of physics and general principles of applied technology and the art and craft of music (and no, I'm not talking about stylistic details on the latter).

Learn THAT stuff, and you can figure out things as you go.

Learn a list of a bag 'o tricks, and, well, you have that bag o' tricks.


JLE

[airborne]

...and you'd know this how?


I don't know at all, i'm just speculating. Glad you corrected me :lol:. And I know the careers available are basically nil, I'm not living in a bubble of fantasy, thinking it's easy/guaranteed.

[HOOK]

Please, people, not all schools are good and not all schools are bad either!! If you go to a shitty school then that school sucks :icon_eek: Newsflash!!

there are some grey inbetween the black and the white too...:Roll eyes:

Teaching students are a little bit like recording; Crap in -Crap out! :Twisted:
....but if I am above mediocre as a teacher I can pollish the turd to make it shine a little...



HOOK

[frnjplayer]

I doubt electronic engineering will do much for my employability in the studio circle.

Uuuuhhhmmmmmm.
Last time I checked the majority of the contents of a recording studio is largely electronic. The ability to design, mod, fix, maintain, explain, decipher, and actually hook up in logical order, things of electronic nature does have a healthy dose of value in the studio circle. :Coolio:

[Tim Armstrong]

...and the ability to troubleshoot and fix studio gear that's gotten twitchy is significantly appealing to studio owners.

Learn to read schematics, use a VOM and a soldering iron and you'll be like the fabled one-eyed man in the country of the blind...

Cheers, Tim

[Brendo]

What you need is general background knowledge of how stuff works and and not just what it does but a little of how and why. I mean, mostly, stuff that really doesn't have to have any kind of "recording school" curriculum involved at all. The physics involved in making sound and propagation of it. Electronics.

Dude, they teach that stuff, it's just that the ones you're describing don't want to listen because they think its boring and useless. They're the same guys who have been skipping our wednesday classes on communication, essay writing and public speaking. The guys who fail to see the bigger picture. And they fail to see the bigger picture not only in the classroom, but also in the studio, and even life in general.

[eagan]

Yeah. I get it, Brendo. That's exactly the sort I'm talking to there, in case any of them wander through this place looking for information.

Lack of sight of the big picture is nothing unusual, that's for sure. The age old story of the youth who said "why do I need to learn that stuff? I'll never use it when I get out of school!" is another classic.

(and the straightforward response to that latter kind of statement is pretty much simply "yes, moron, I certainly do believe with no doubt at all that you never will use or even remember any of that after you leave school!")


I have a relevant little short story I'll get back to later.


JLE

[Brendo]

"Why do I need to learn English? I'm never going to England!"

The reason for my tirades is that we're about 6 weeks into the third year of the degree now, and we've gone from almost being spoonfed the exam answers in the vocational system, to being thrown headfirst into third year university... and it's so very different, that the students who are used to being babied can't handle it.

[eagan]

Learn to read schematics, use a VOM and a soldering iron and you'll be like the fabled one-eyed man in the country of the blind...


Hey, I can read schematics, use a VOM, and a soldering iron.

So, who wants to hire me?



Anyway.

My little story. I promised.

It's short.


So, then, any of you younger type human critters who might be lurking about and might be of the mindset that goes like "what do I need to learn that stuff for, I don't need it?", as has been mentioned here.

Listen up.

OK, so, back in yon olden days of yore, when dinosaurs roamed the earth (this would be, specifically, the mid-seventies), I was a young lad in high school, taking the usual stuff as well as going through a two year vocational education program in electronics.

Toward the end of the senior year, as this program and high school itself came closer to the finish, we started getting into a period of some options in my electronics class.

The program consisted of a three hour block of classes over that two years, with each day being spent with one hour a day of classroom instruction, and two hours of lab. As the general standard stuff in lab was completed, people (in lab partner pairs) who had completed the required work for the year could go off on elective "modules" of more specialized topics to learn some extra stuff, fill out the remainder of the year and program, and maybe even have some fun.

There was a little lab unit with course materials that gave you a little sort of digital electronics breadboard setup. Assorted modules had the basic digital logic gates and components on these little square PCBs, that you could pop into this master unit with a power supply, patch into assorted configurations according to exercises in the accompanying booklets, and play with.

Bear in mind that this was at a time when the concept of a "microprocessor", a thing integrating a bunch of circuitry usually found in a computer "central processing unit" on a single integrated circuit was a recent new development.

Anyway, my lab partner and I worked through that, learned the basic stuff, learned what the different gates were, poked pushbutton switches and watched LED lights blink, learned what a truth table was, yadayadayada.

Got all done with that.

Sitting back and reviewing the experience with my lab partner and a couple other guys sitting around the lab, I spoke.

Here it comes.


"Well, this stuff is kind of interesting, and a change of pace from all the other stuff we've covered, and it was cool to learn about it... but I figure learning about this digital electronics stuff probably won't really mean all that much to me, personally, because I'm thinking that after I get done with school, I'll probably go and get into audio and maybe become a recording engineer".

OK, you were saying....?


JLE

[bassntreble]

The difference between a working and nonworking AE is not a degree, it's not even talent. It's tenacity. I cut my chops as an intern at Greene Street in the early 90's after running out of college money to finsh a Bio degree. I worked alongside guys that graduated from IAR and most never seemed to make it past the 3rd week of cleaning toilets, making coffee and making sure cables were wrapped correctly-scratch that, we didn't get to touch cables until after the 4th week. I'll tell you someting though, what I learned from just watching operations for a month was session protocol. Who did what and when, what the status-quo is and who was really the boss.

A monkey can align an ATR if you show em' how. Being able to think on your toes and deal with diverse personalities is how you get the gig.

So quit cryin' and worrying about the other guy. Get your own house in order. I've worked on vintage Neves and Ikons but the majority of my income is generated by a 5 year old Mbox, a pretty good set of ears, 15 years of paying attention and thinking outside of the box.

A buzz MA2.2 and a pair of distressors come in handy on occasion as well....:Wink:

[knightsy]

Has anybody mentioned anything about music theory yet?

[HOOK]

Has anybody mentioned anything about music theory yet?

Music!!?? Music!!?? What has any of this to do with music!!??



HOOK

[robmacki]

I IV ii I6/4 V7 vi

[HOOK]

I IV ii I6/4 V7 vi

C F dm F/C G7 am


T S Sp S/5 D7 Tp


..do you have the number to that girl in Paris to? :Wink:


HOOK

[robmacki]

..do you have the number to that girl in Paris to?

No but her name is Deceptive Cadence.:Wink:

[HOOK]

No but her name is Deceptive Cadence.:Wink:

Oh yes I remember her!
Used to call her Dee for short
Dee Cadence :Wink:

prefer her sister Sub V Cadence though...



HOOK

[robmacki]

prefer her sister Sub V Cadence though...



HOOK

She was only 1/2 as good:lol:

[HOOK]

She was only 1/2 as good:lol:

ok I have to give you that, but at least she did not trick you, as her sister did!:D :Roll eyes:


HOOK

[Anderson]

i was having a conversation with a friend of mine who went to a particular recording school near orlando, florida....

i posed the idea of running a studio with a control-24, proper microphones, a decent amount of outboard equipment, and the proper computer/plugins sufficient to make a good sounding record. this prompted actual anger in him, who responded with some long-winded harangue about how if the desk doesn't read amek, ssl, or have the word neve somewhere on it, it isn't a 'real' studio.

am i crazy to think that if i can spend 8 grand on a system that will give me 16 focusrite pres (albeit not the best money can get you), plenty of control over my operation, and can make a good sounding recording out of it, i'm not merely running (in his words) a 'project studio?'

and if i am not crazy, is it these schools that turn well-meaning aspiring AE's into recording snobs?

the last thing he said before we moved onto other things was "if you can spend 8 grand, why not spend a hundred?"

Recording school or not, there are good guys everywhere and snobs everywhere. I've studied Acoustics engineering, so I was mostly with fellow acoustics nerds... But I defenately met AE snobs here and there that explained to me for hours they couldn't mix on something else than an analog desk, but hey, all they ever mixed are the 3 projects they had to do at their audio school. Just don't listen to them, take the time to analyse the recording market around you and start with a humble yet efficient set-up that will suit your present needs. And grow from there. Book bigger studios from time to time if the project budget allows it. Project studio or not, what matters in the begining is to get actual good work done.

Take it all one step at a time. IMVHO it takes time, experience and lots of trial and errors to become a good engineer - I think you learn all your life, at every session. It's never the same thing. It takes concentration and determination and... a bit of luck - meeting the right people at the right time.

If your friend thinks it's reasonnable to spend 100K on a studio although he's just out of school, he's plain day dreaming. What a cold shower it will be. And BTW, a full-on *pro* studio will cost him way more than that. At least 250k if he's lucky. What's the use of a LFAC in a non treated room? You might as well mix with papier maché in your ears.

For my new (mostly private) place, I only had (and wanted) to borrow a minimum from the bank. The gear, LFAC etc., basically everything that is not concrete or insulation is paid for - took me 5-6 years of saving and thus living on a very student-like strict budget although making a decent living. AFAIC this is the only viable way these days to keep the overheads low enough that you hopefully break even every month with a big studio. Start slow, never borrow for gear, work, grow, work, grow, and when the time has come - go for the bigger thing while keeping the overheads LOW. You pay all your costs (fixed and variables) in less than 5 days of work a month. Over 5 days, chances are you'll be fast in trouble...

[Brendo]

I6/4

Whoa. Hello, strange chord.

That's a sixth chord with a 4 in the bass, right? Or am I misreading?

go for the bigger thing while keeping the overheads LOW.

Actually, I prefer to get more of an overall kit image with my overheads...

[Sasquatch Backwax]

Whoa. Hello, strange chord.

That's a sixth chord with a 4 in the bass, right?

You're thinking too much:) , in figured bass, I6/4 is just your tonic chord in its second inversion- i.e. if you're in the key of C (the I chord being C-E-G), your I6/4 chord is, from lowest note to highest- G-C-E, or G-E-C, the important part is the G in the bass.

[robmacki]

Whoa. Hello, strange chord.

That's a sixth chord with a 4 in the bass, right? Or am I misreading?



2nd inversion of the I chord. So in a major (or minor) triad (1, 3, 5) the 5 is in the bass, the top note would be a 6th interval and the middle not would be a 4th interval above the bass.

In the key of C it would be the notes: G, C, E or a "C/G" moving to the G7.

The cadence I spelled out is called a Deceptive Cadence.
Hook spelled out a 1/2 cadence (sub V) where the phrase pauses on the dominant V (not a V7) The two other main cadences are the "Plagal" or the "Amen" ex. I ii V7 IV I and the "P.A.C" or
Perfect Authentic Cadence ex. I ii IV V7 I. The PAC always ends with the dominant 7 chord leading to the I chord with the tonic in the melody or top note.

I doubt they teach classical theory at Full Sail.:Wink:

[Brendo]

I've just never seen that notation before.

WHY does that make sense? I6/4 ?! "hey, let's use the I chord's name and then put a time signature after it!"...

[HOOK]

2nd inversion of the I chord. So in a major (or minor) triad (1, 3, 5) the 5 is in the bass, the top note would be a 6th interval and the middle not would be a 4th interval above the bass.

In the key of C it would be the notes: G, C, E or a "C/G" moving to the G7.

The cadence I spelled out is called a Deceptive Cadence.
Hook spelled out a 1/2 cadence (sub V) where the phrase pauses on the dominant V (not a V7) The two other main cadences are the "Plagel" or the "Amen" ex. I ii V7 IV I and the "P.A.C" or
Perfect Authentic Cadence ex. I ii IV V7 I. The PAC always ends with the dominant 7 chord leading to the I chord with the tonic in the melody or top note.

I doubt they teach classical theory at Full Sail.:Wink:


hmmm...maybe its just a lingo thing, but...

The Half Cadence is like you say when you end a phrase at the V ex: C - G (no7)

..but the Sub V is a "tritone substitute" to the V used mainly in jazz to vary the ii-V-I progression. ex: (in C) dm - Db - C Maj7 instead of dm-G7-C (ofcourse you will typically have all kinds of 7 and 13 and b9 added...)


For all you guys wondering what the *** were talking about check out these links for clarity.

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id55_en.html

http://www.musictheory.net


HOOK

[robmacki]

hmmm...maybe its just a lingo thing, but...

The Half Cadence is like you say when you end a phrase at the V ex: C - G (no7)

..but the Sub V is a "tritone substitute" to the V used mainly in jazz to vary the ii-V-I progression. ex: (in C) dm - Db - C Maj7 instead of dm-G7-C (ofcourse you will typically have all kinds of 7 and 13 and b9 added...)



aaaaaaaaaah. I must have missed that. I thought you were making reference to the Half Cadence.
So "Sub V" = bV tritone substitute?
"Diablo!"
They only offered classical theory where/when I went to school. Jazz is like a different language:Coolio:

[HOOK]

:Redface: well if you check my chords you see that I wrote F/C instead of C/G... I6/4 I read it I=C , 4=F, 6=A equals F/C
...but then the roman numeral analysis wasen´t taught at my school.
Swedish classical edu. uses the Functional analysis.


HOOK

[robmacki]

:Redface: well if you check my chords you see that I wrote F/C instead of C/G... I6/4 I read it I=C , 4=F, 6=A equals F/C

Ok strap in.

So in the key of C that would be IV64 which could be a precursor to modulate to the key of F if you use C as a V(7) of IV.
You then introduce Bb and you have your tritone in the C7 where the Bb resolves to the A and the E resolves to the F in the new I chord of F major. The IV64 could also be used in the Plagal cadence.

Basically this thread has been hijacked by the Music Dept.:Razz:

[HOOK]

Basically this thread has been hijacked by the Music Dept.:Razz:

so! How about G - Eb - C ?? (no analysis, just do you like it)
or are you more of a C -am-dm-G7-C guy? :Roll eyes:

Hands up everybody whats your fav. Chord progression?


HOOK

[Sasquatch Backwax]

so! How about G - Eb - C ?? (no analysis, just do you like it)
HOOK

Chromatic mediant! (bIII)--- sorry, just getting theory class flashbacks:Roll eyes:

Seriously though- altered iii and vi chords like that can add some really cool sounds to a boring progression. Debussy was big on this.

I like throwing in major chords that don't quite fit- even with tritone relations: Bb E C#m D is one I like.

What is this thread about again?:)

[HOOK]

What is this thread about again?:)

Progression!!!

Human, educational and chord progression!!:grin:


HOOK

[robmacki]

so! How about G - Eb - C ?? (no analysis, just do you like it)


All depends on the context. :D
Shall we get into the "Doctrine of the Affections?":very happy:

[HOOK]

Chromatic mediant!

hmmm thet whould imply that in "english" you define the III as a mediant?
In the key of C I whould define Eb as a contra parallell to the I (Tonika) and a parallell if in c minor key.

A mediant to me is a chord at a 3rd interval (maj or min) that is not a parallel. (min 3rd up if a minor chord, min3rd down if a major chord - G and em is parallell)
ex gm - E.
D-Bb-G-G is a nice one; Starship trooper -Yes


HOOK

[Sasquatch Backwax]

hmmm thet whould imply that in "english" you define the III as a mediant?
In the key of C I whould define Eb as a contra parallell to the I (Tonika) and a parallell if in c minor key.

A mediant to me is a chord at a 3rd interval (maj or min) that is not a parallel. (min 3rd up if a minor chord, min3rd down if a major chord - G and em is parallell)
ex gm - E.

HOOK

That's an interesting distinction- I have to say I've never learned it. Instead of "contra parallel," I think we just used "borrowed chord"- I agree though, there's definitely a difference between a chord available in a parallel key and one that is an altered iii or vi not in a parallel key :Redface: I guess it may only be a chromatic mediant if it's not "contra parallel"/borrowed. My bad.

All depends on the context. :D
Shall we get into the "Doctrine of the Affections?":very happy:

:lol: Chromatic mediants make me feel... squishy