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ella
April 17th, 2007, 09:33 PM
Since finally getting into computers and discovering online forums, I've noticed a few things. Communities form around a common interest or activity with varying degrees of involvement and/or expertise. Some of the more (or less) knowledgeable members become petty tyrants. Others are less insecure and wound up, discussing without bias or judgement. One thing that really stands out is that there is always a local 'whipping boy'. Some topic that is the favorite to take shots at, whether it be (for example, not necessarily real) aftermarket parts or Nautilus machines or dietary supplements. It's The Bandwagon, and it is generally full to capacity.

On music forums, it seems that technology is the local favorite (pro and con) due to the irrefutable impact on every aspect of the gig. Protools. Beat detective. Melodyne. The ability to dump a bucket of billiard balls down a concrete stairwell and edit it into a percussion solo, or 'assemble' a bunch of pre-recorded samples and loops into a 'performance'. The utter inability of some 'performers' to ever match the 'performance' in a live setting, thus degrading the entire musical culture. On the flip side, the engineers understanding (and subsequent lamentation) that they will likely get the blame for an 'inferior product' based on their inability/hesitancy to utilize the available tools to buff the turds, and that they also have to keep their overhead covered and doors open. A horrible conundrum.

Which brings me to my point. Previously at the Marsh and now here we have a forum where engineers and musicians run free, untrammeled by the expectations or desires of the unwashed masses with their waxy ears. We have a groovy collaborative music thing going on too, on our terms. There is no need to follow the societal or industry expectation of edited perfection, and yet, apparently, we still do. There is the expectation that a final product will be delivered at par with industry releases in both performance and presentation (just like on any pro session) and the final responsibility to deliver falls on the engineer. Based on the huge spread of abilities involved there is seldom any choice, out comes the grid, Otto and BD.

Is this a double standard? Could we look in the mirror without makeup? Based on one of the local 'whipping boy' topics, it seems like we expect others to. Would it be that bad?

I am not directing this at anyone in particular. This has been tossing around in my head since the first CAPE. Perhaps at best it will make for an interesting discussion. At worst, bye bye rep points. :)

weedywet
April 17th, 2007, 10:01 PM
why is there "no choice"?

who SAYS that the way to make better, or even just "more pro", records leads inevitably to more 'fixing' after the fact?

why shouldn't it lead to practising more and playing better?
To arranging better?
to recording better in the first place so less needs to be fixed in the mix?
to writing better songs, or at least holding out to record the better ones...


and so on...


almost everyone who makes a 'record' makes it for other people to hear; even as it's an expression of your own feelings.
So it strikes me as only natural that even though it's an unknown who will ever hear it, connecting with that public at large of "unwashed masses" is still the goal.

I think it's only defensive when people say "i don't care if anyone likes it".
EVERYONE cares if other people like it.

that's why we DO it.


I wouldn't tell you to go out without make-up without ALSO suggesting how you might just make yourself look better without it.
know what I mean?


and last, i DON'T think the "engineer" is ultimately responsible or even usually blamed.
Only friends of the band say "they're a great band but so and so 'ruined' them"
usually people only dislike the record and that's that.
The artiste lives or dies on it... and the engineer goes on to the next project.

The producer, if there IS one, has some responsibility and really should both tell the engineer what he wants AND be responsible for the fallout from that.
And good producers DO that.
Early in my career I did something that pissed off a singer (I shut her off in the solo during a run through so I could hear the band without her leakage, and I was slow turning her back on, so she started to sing and was dead in her phones and freaked out).. and she came tearing into the control room in a fit of anger, and the (very big name) producer immediately stepped in and said "hey! if you have a problem, tell ME. I'll be responsible for what the engineer does. He does what I ask him to".
and that defused the situation AND set a tone of going to him with problems from ALL sides.
Then he just quietly turned to me and said "leave her on, we don't need her freaking out"
I said "sure. sorry!" and that was that.

but the REALLY valuable thing was that I learned then and there that that is what a REAL producer does, and I always did it since.
If something got fucked up or erased or not recorded... I never pointed a finger at the engineer and said "HE did it".
*I* took the heat and said "sorry, WE had a problem in here but we're on it"

it is MY responsiblity as the producer.

and it's equally the producer's resposibility to say to the BAND, "hey those drums are really unsteady. We can try to fix them but really you need to work on that."
So no one IS going to get "blamed" for the record not being "perfect" later.
Everyone KNOWS what the problems are.


I tend to think that some of what you're saying is a result of one person trying to be all things at ONCE, rather than sequentially.
It's hard enough to sing without trying to sing, engineer, produce and arrange all at once.

bunnerabb
April 17th, 2007, 10:11 PM
I just bang this shit out until what I hear in my head comes out of my speakers.

Sometimes I make it, sometimes I don't.

And I'd be a lying sonofabitch if I said I didn't care if people like it but it's my job to make it palatable and engaging with or without any given ubiquitous method.

bunnerabb
April 17th, 2007, 10:25 PM
And you know he difficult part?

Getting people interested enough into making it happen.

Getting people to show up and plug in, folks.

It's Little Red Hen syndrome.

Progtronic
April 17th, 2007, 10:35 PM
agreed...

when I see a majority of people chime in on topics regarding 'how to write songs' , 'how to mix and master' or 'what kind of rediculously expensive equipment I should use to record this finger snap'... it all seems to wrap back around to some typical industry standard.

I signed up for the unsigned artist thing, knowing full well that without vocals, traditional song structure and incorporating cookie-cutter things that ensure a business standard 'sparkle'... there was no way I was gonna get passed the first round.

did it anyway in sort of a protest... :D

with all the pro talk and (what seems to be) inside jokes and info around here, it's really hard to understand what's going on sometimes.

I was sort of hoping the move from the marsh would loosen things up a bit, it was like this a lot over there as well.

it's tough to be an independent in these forums, but I still lurk around and gather up useful info (that I can apply to my situation) wherever I can.

technology has really changed the face of the industry allowing for amazing, at home, low budget productions these days.

I can't be the only one around here who's feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the industry pro talk... there's plenty of forum space here to discuss stuff from a non-pro point of view... I think the problem is being able to do that without feeling like a complete noob.

I'm one of those people who would really like to see the art of music become the focus, rather than the business of it. not saying there isn't any good music coming out of the pro market, there really just isn't much of it.

at the same time I can completely understand the working pro's perspective on the music industry. it's alot like the computer industry... if the OS wasn't so broken, there wouldn't be many jobs for those pro's...

if suddenly artists were able to successfully run off on their own, and do everything themselves easily and cheaply at a pro level... hmmm...

oh well, I know what I was getting myself into when I signed up originally at prosound and now here...

I just needed to vent...

guess I'm sort of a resident, anti-industry standard, contributor.

hope it doesn't piss everyone off... :)

bunnerabb
April 17th, 2007, 10:43 PM
The biggest difference between pro and amateur is a paycheck.

Period.

If you sell 700,000 units of something I think is dogshit, you're about 699,600 units more pro than I am and there's not a speck of sarcasm, there.

Results rule and the rest is pissing up a rope and arguing how long it should be.

I consistently hear some of the most God-awful trash being looped as samples on hit records and think "Man, that shit was played out in 99", but it ain't if it's selling.

It just got tossed into a new dish and served hot.

And people ordered.

Embrace the spice rack.

lebouche
April 17th, 2007, 11:00 PM
I think evreybodys got a little wound up by a few negative threads.

Generally this place is positive, helpful, educational, friendly, constructivly critical, honest and full of good people.

I think maybe we should just delete all the negative threads we had in the last few days as they are a blight on this cool places history.

I think we've kinda gone through a mass hysteria and fucked things up a little. I'll even admit to not being blameless myself.

Mostly this is not what this thread was about but I think people are alluding to this.

I'm kinda appreciative of the pro aspect here.

I want to do things well...professional people get paid because they do things well.

Professional people do not always sell records...I'm full time thus by definition professional but I haven't sold a record and have much knowlege missing.

I get paid cos I give it 150% and I aspire to be as good as some of the pro's here, people get more than their moneys worth. I do this not to make money but to one day hope to do things well consistantly and be proud of the music I work on.

bunnerabb
April 17th, 2007, 11:05 PM
Professional people do not always sell records...I'm full time thus by definition professional but I haven't sold a record and have much knowlege missing.

Um.. I meant like if you're an aspiring recording artist, not "y'all ain't pro" or anything.

Honest.

lebouche
April 17th, 2007, 11:10 PM
agreed...

when I see a majority of people chime in on topics regarding 'how to write songs' , 'how to mix and master' or 'what kind of rediculously expensive equipment I should use to record this finger snap'... it all seems to wrap back around to some typical industry standard.

I signed up for the unsigned artist thing, knowing full well that without vocals, traditional song structure and incorporating cookie-cutter things that ensure a business standard 'sparkle'... there was no way I was gonna get passed the first round.

did it anyway in sort of a protest... :D

with all the pro talk and (what seems to be) inside jokes and info around here, it's really hard to understand what's going on sometimes.

I was sort of hoping the move from the marsh would loosen things up a bit, it was like this a lot over there as well.

it's tough to be an independent in these forums, but I still lurk around and gather up useful info (that I can apply to my situation) wherever I can.

technology has really changed the face of the industry allowing for amazing, at home, low budget productions these days.

I can't be the only one around here who's feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the industry pro talk... there's plenty of forum space here to discuss stuff from a non-pro point of view... I think the problem is being able to do that without feeling like a complete noob.

I'm one of those people who would really like to see the art of music become the focus, rather than the business of it. not saying there isn't any good music coming out of the pro market, there really just isn't much of it.

at the same time I can completely understand the working pro's perspective on the music industry. it's alot like the computer industry... if the OS wasn't so broken, there wouldn't be many jobs for those pro's...

if suddenly artists were able to successfully run off on their own, and do everything themselves easily and cheaply at a pro level... hmmm...

oh well, I know what I was getting myself into when I signed up originally at prosound and now here...

I just needed to vent...

guess I'm sort of a resident, anti-industry standard, contributor.

hope it doesn't piss everyone off... :)
I was responding to this....shoulda used quotes.
and no I'm not pissed off, but I don't think this place is purely industry driven....anyone earning from music is most likely doing it because they are a music lover.

slabrock
April 17th, 2007, 11:19 PM
with all the pro talk and (what seems to be) inside jokes and info around here, it's really hard to understand what's going on sometimes.

I was sort of hoping the move from the marsh would loosen things up a bit, it was like this a lot over there as well.

I can't be the only one around here who's feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the industry pro talk... there's plenty of forum space here to discuss stuff from a non-pro point of view... I think the problem is being able to do that without feeling like a complete noob.

Compared to the marsh (where i lurked quietly for 7 years) this is very polite and easy going forum, where people tolerate amateurs fairly well and every proper question gets answered. That's how i feel. Really.

Considering most people here are professionals, some even the professionals' professionals and masters of their art, can it be their fault if their shop talk is sometimes on a higher level of professionalism? Is it even a fault?

L'art pour l'art is a fine approach, but what about when you have to pay the mortgage for the home, get food for the family and gas for the car with your art? Surely the "not whoring your art" becomes more of a question of doing a professional job and trying to do your best everytime.

I wouldn't ever recommend anybody to rather frequent other forums, because i really feel that everybody has something valuable to give for the common good, but i want to remind that there exists several audio forums directed to the home recordists and more on a beginner / intermediate level. Thus the reason to come here must be to learn from the best, and that's at least my reason of being here.

Feeling occasionally like a newbie is not a bad thing. Everybody has to learn everything the first time, no one was born ready. The only thing i think that is not tolerated at all, is if a person doesn't want to learn and calls that a style. Even then, if it works, it's shrugged ok.

Remember that the happiest person in the world is an amateur, who can do the thing that he or she loves without a responsibility of the outcome. That is a privilege not granted for the pro's.

Peace for all and everybody,

Slabrock

dikledoux
April 17th, 2007, 11:24 PM
it's tough to be an independent in these forums, but I still lurk around and gather up useful info (that I can apply to my situation) wherever I can.
Your experience is your own, but I gotta disagree a thousand percent. There ain't a more bedroom-studio-hack-independent person than me here, and I've always been amazed at the generosity and mentoring over here. It's just that at times it may seem like you're trying to drink from a fire hose. Just gulp what you can and let the rest stream over you. Some will soak in and you won't even realize it til you listen back on what you USED to produce.

if suddenly artists were able to successfully run off on their own, and do everything themselves easily and cheaply at a pro level... hmmm...Suddenly? Isn't this a 20 year old phenomena already? Granted, better recording facilities CAN yield better recordings, but the performance will show through either way - if it's good enough. And that doesn't have anything to do with gear. Just heart.

dik

Tim Armstrong
April 17th, 2007, 11:29 PM
I think Charles Dye is a great guy, a damn fine producer/engineer, and incredibly generous with sharing his acquired knowlege, so the following is absolutely no reflection on how I feel about his participation here...

...but the "MILAR"-ization of this place is a little hard to take sometimes. But then again, it may be that I'm just a fossilized relic, being of a certain age and concentrating as I do on playing and recording stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I use a DAW program on a computer, and I mix in the box, and I use plug-ins (damn, "plugz" annoys me :lol: ). And I've started using a tape simulator plug on a few things and am digging it. But still, seems like MUSIC has become an afterthought. And, as has been discussed lately, there's a hell of a lot of folks asking to be told how to do things rather than figuring out how to do things on their own...

Getting back to discussing this place in general, I do kinda miss the musician forum and the 101 forum from the MARSH. I know we have the "WOMB University" here, but somehow the flavor has changed. And Mixerman has said that he sees this forum as the place for musicians, but it isn't like it was when Gabe was writing about making guitars, and we were talking about various amps, or basses, or keyboards, or even drums for chrissake.

But really, I'm just grumbling because it ain't like it used to be, but what ever is???

Cheers, Tim

ggunn
April 17th, 2007, 11:31 PM
There are, IMO, two ways to interpret the qualifications for being referred to as a "pro". One is a matter of economics, the other is a matter of attitude. The two sets of people to whom the different interpretations apply are not 100% coincident.

lebouche
April 17th, 2007, 11:35 PM
There are, IMO, two ways to interpret the qualifications for being referred to as a "pro". One is a matter of economics, the other is a matter of attitude. The two sets of people to whom the different interpretations apply are not 100% coincident.

You'd think most of the time they are deeply related??
I get most of my work because I meet up with people and they say they like my attitude and keenness.

frnjplayer
April 17th, 2007, 11:41 PM
agreed...

it's tough to be an independent in these forums, but I still lurk around and gather up useful info (that I can apply to my situation) wherever I can....


I can't be the only one around here who's feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the industry pro talk... there's plenty of forum space here to discuss stuff from a non-pro point of view... I think the problem is being able to do that without feeling like a complete noob.....


I'm one of those people who would really like to see the art of music become the focus, rather than the business of it. not saying there isn't any good music coming out of the pro market, there really just isn't much of it....



hope it doesn't piss everyone off... :)

Hmmm Lot's of stuff in there. Definitely nothing to be pissed off at although there may be a few different persectives shared.

As a middle aged hack working with garbage equipment in a far too small room I certainly don't qualify as "pro". Regardless of wether you qualify "pro" as a certain level of quality or as a paycheck. I see lot's a guys here in the same relative situation and neither they nor the big kids seem to care if they are a pro or independent. Attitude seems to play a bigger role in the reception you get.
With respect to discussing stuff from a pro or non pro point of view, it's great to have a batch of experienced AE's willing to give free lessons, advice, tips, and corrections for you. If you come across as a total know nothing noob there may be some hazing, and initiation rituals (often involving small furry animals and a rubber hose) but take it with good graces and you've got a lot of people willing to bend over backwards to help you out. Worrying about being perceived as a noob is a problem only you can deal with. No one else cares:D

I've also noticed that the general attitude here is one of serving the music. The art is the main focus. Nobody worries about wether your music has vocals, standard format, or a cookie cutter style. They can take most anything and differentiate good from suck. And if it's suck they have no reservations about letting you know it.

CurtZHP
April 18th, 2007, 12:05 AM
And you know he difficult part?

Getting people interested enough into making it happen.

Getting people to show up and plug in, folks.

It's Little Red Hen syndrome.


Amen to that! That's exactly what I'm going through with my band right now. I'm this close to just saying "Screw it!" Gonna find me a bunch of kids who don't know squat about it and pretend I'm Malcolm MacClaren. :Twisted:

Or maybe I'll just mix for food. :Uh oh:




It's all Bush's fault!

weedywet
April 18th, 2007, 12:33 AM
The biggest difference between pro and amateur is a paycheck.

Period.
...

I'm not that cynical.

Yes, that's a definition of "professional", but not of 'professionalism'

I think the poeple who manage to do it well and consistently for a long time are not exactly the SAME as people who have a brief run of 'hits'.

being able to KEEP it up over time says at least something...

(said the actress to the Bishop)


but ultimately I'd take advice from someone whose work I liked; irrespective of pro/am status.

vocalnick
April 18th, 2007, 12:34 AM
I feel like Ella's point kind of got lost somewhere here.

A lot of folks like to gripe about the industry expectation that they smash the 2-buss, use ottotoon, beat detective etc. etc. but at CAPE time those tools are par for the course, when there is no client bringing pressure to bear to use them. I guess as Ella said, the broad spectrum of talent/ability across the board means sometimes that's needed and sometimes not. The AE won't neccessarily get blamed for a badly timed/tuned part, but it'll still be a recording of a bad performance that has their name on it.

When I'm wearing my musician hat, I'd rather be told my pitch was off and re-track the part than be given the thumbs-up and then have the engineer reach for his Melodyne. When I'm wearing my engineers hat, I'd rather work with a performer who thinks the same - provided they've got it in them to actually do that. If they don't, I guess I'd be aiming to patch it up as best I could as well.

Good topic :)

weedywet
April 18th, 2007, 12:36 AM
I'm one of those people who would really like to see the art of music become the focus, rather than the business of it. not saying there isn't any good music coming out of the pro market, there really just isn't much of it.



is there MORE good music, by PERCENTAGE, coming out of the "non-pro" music world?

I don't know. But I suspect not.
Just a LOT more mediocre music able to be created and heard.

Progtronic
April 18th, 2007, 12:41 AM
yeah, my opinions regarding these issues tend to be very extreme... and I appologize if it comes off wrong.

I consider myself a pro, but I'm always learning...

I get a lot of resistance to my writing and production methods and it makes me defensive, so some of the stuff I read here worries me.

I'm 100% in the box. not only one computer but also just one software program to do everything. I enjoy the challenge of trying to apply real world hardware rules to software.

*holy crap! stone the evil one!!*

anyway... composition is another issue...

I believe people do worry about the makeup of a track, especially when you're submitting something for critique. when I post music I've done, the general reaction is: "well that's kind of cool, but it'll never sell... structure, instrumental... blah...". I guess then it's a matter of opinion of what is considered marketable... well not entirely opinion...

which brings me back around to the topic.

I guess some background of where you hope to go with a mix, to give people a better idea of how they can help, would work. else maybe they'll think you're just going for that hit song.

now... if they say they are going for that hit song... and their submission is clearly crap... constructive critism would be nice. and if they still don't get it after that... well, business as usual... ;)

Progtronic
April 18th, 2007, 12:52 AM
is there MORE good music, by PERCENTAGE, coming out of the "non-pro" music world?

I don't know. But I suspect not.
Just a LOT more mediocre music able to be created and heard.

given the percentage of non-pro v.s. pro's... it's safe to say there's alot more really bad music coming from the non-pro side.

but given that the pro market is funded by big industry money, you'd think they'd weed out that kind of thing and only let the good stuff through... :Uh oh:

yet they harp on the same, slowly dying thing... over and over...

so, you can't really compare the indie's to the pro's in that regard...

eagan
April 18th, 2007, 02:12 AM
Between the original post and Progtronic's thoughts coming in a bit later, there's a lot of mixed stuff to consider. Maybe a little too mixed to try to dive into it all at once. Not intending to lump the thoughts of two different people together, either, but there are some common themes that could make that an easier route.

Alright, I'm already digressing into babble.

The main point is this. If you want to consider this particular forum, and that seems to be the topic at hand, to keep this simple and succinct I would have to say that one of the very good things about this place (and the same for the MARSH before it) is that the whole thing is extraordinarily well balanced, and that is true in extremely broad terms, in any parameters and characteristics you care to look at.

That pretty much sums it up.


Now, if you want to, you could zoom in a specific threads and posts on various topics, and try to make a case about something being a particular prevalent view, or that, or the other thing. But I see no useful point in that.

And the reason I see no useful point in that is because of what I just said, it all, as a whole, is balanced out among a range of different people very well. Different perspectives come into play and on any given topic things balance out and self correct and any bullshit or general questionable thinking (or lack thereof) gets hosed down and cleaned up pretty quick.


I think one thing that needs to be considered was already hit upon by Tim above. In past times, to be able to put together a really good quality serious recording required, to simplify down a lot, a couple of things:

(and please note, I'm only talking about the recording quality itself, not material, performances, etc.)

1. a pile of really expensive equipment, some of it needing substantial and tricky maintenance

2. some real engineering chops


Now, what is way too easy to overlook in more recent years is this. Thanks to the changes we're all aware of, item one above has changed to a large extent (although not quite as much as the gear sales people would like to tell you).

But even if you manage to assemble gear for humble money that still has significant potential, there is NO FUCKING MAGIC WAND WITH IT.

You still have to know how to engineer a recording if you expect to create good recordings.

If you don't, you're expecting to depend on sheer dumb luck that something will sound good now and then. It's really that simple.

Where anybody is along the road of learning that craft varies. And it all sorts out pretty well here in terms of people helping each other out, and yes, that includes the occasional "don't be a dumbfuck" sort of post.

There are people with serious resumes. There are people just getting started in bedrooms and basements. It's all over the map.

And it's pretty "classless".

"Professional", as has been said, is not just strictly about cashflow, there's also a matter of craft and commitment.

Me? I'm just a "part time/semipro" sort. Hey, I'm nobody. But I have done stuff for a while, and do know a few things. There's a lot I haven't done, and a lot I don't know.

When something comes up and I know a thing or two about it, I sometimes pipe up and offer a clue or two. Other things come up and I shut the fuck up and read and I learn some things.

Most people here are pretty good about just that sort of thing. It works pretty well.


JLE

weedywet
April 18th, 2007, 02:55 AM
And it's pretty "classless".
...


I know I am :Twisted:

anyway, ask a real question and you're bound to get some REALLY interesting answers.
I know I always find SOMETHING interesting that I wouldn't have thought based on my own experience.

As I said, I may or may not follow that advice, depending on whom it's from.

But you certainly have a good chance to get your questions taken seriously by some very experienced people.

dikledoux
April 18th, 2007, 02:57 AM
A lot of folks like to gripe about the industry expectation that they smash the 2-buss, use ottotoon, beat detective etc. etc. but at CAPE time those tools are par for the course...

I call bullshit.

Not that these absolutely haven't been used, but CERTAINLY not par for the course. I defy you to show that this is par. I'd say that par is more likely that there's a strong bunch of talent and the parts are either:
- like they were submitted or
- creatively trashed to take advantage of the issues or
- mixed down or out so far that people got bent about their parts being excluded.

Just my take.

dik

vocalnick
April 18th, 2007, 03:09 AM
I call bullshit.

Not that these absolutely haven't been used, but CERTAINLY not par for the course. I defy you to show that this is par. I'd say that par is more likely that there's a strong bunch of talent and the parts are either:
- like they were submitted or
- creatively trashed to take advantage of the issues or
- mixed down or out so far that people got bent about their parts being excluded.

Just my take.

dik


To clarify, I was mostly re-iterating Ella's original post, which I thought was getting lost in "state of the forum" type conversation. I'm certainly not saying anything out of malice or petulance - my CAPE contributions, such as they are, have been front & centre thus far, and not Otto'd to my knowledge.

I guess I would say that these things appear to be considered more and more to be standard tools nowadays, rather than corrective ones. To some degree I'd say I can observe people griping about it with one hand while they perpetrate it with the other.

I've had a CAPE mixer reassure me that he's got and can use Melodyne... without even hearing a take! I'm not a luddite by any means, but I try not to even think about corrective tools until there is something to correct.

bbkong
April 18th, 2007, 03:59 AM
LMFAO!!


This reminds me of mystery seeds. That packet of seeds from the nursery with no label; you stick em in the ground and have no idea what's gonna come up. Hahaha!

This thread sprung out of a conversation I had with ella this morning over coffee.

While it's been interesting reading what some people interpret this topic to mean, most have actually missed the point which is this:

There's a dichotomy between the habitual moaning about the lack of quality music on the radio and the generally accepted opinion that things like computers, Otto, the Grid and other such tools are the chief implements used to tell the Big Lie, yet when we take on something like the Cape, instead of going back to the way things used to work, we reach for those very same tools that we curse every day.

Of course, tools are just tools and not inherently evil in and of themselves. You can take a sawzall and a hammer to a roll of aluminum foil and come up with something that kinda looks like a carburetor, but that doesn't mean it'll pass gas in a metered and measured manner. It just looks like a carburetor.

So in a large sense it comes down to the way the tools are used in the mechanic's hand.

The source of a certain bitterness about this comes from the exasperation you feel when you've spent the better part of your life mastering your instrument only to learn your bass track has been replaced by a midi-moog on the grid, or your drum track has been locked down and sound replaced till you don't even want your name on the piece.

Somehow along the way all the idiosyncrasies that gave a track flavor, style, soul and character became 'flaws' that needed to be 'fixed' in the computer, and that became the accepted manner of making music.

Don't get me wrong, I bear no grudge against the talentless hacks slathered all over pop music today, it's only a passing thing that will change again over time, but when I hear some puffed piece of nothing pumping out of the radio, knowing that 'artist' couldn't possibly reproduce it on a stage with only a guitar or a piano, then I have to wonder-who told the Big Lie?

Of course the blame doesn't lie at the feet of the public who buys this stuff. They aren't responsible any more than the tv audience is for reality shows.

But drum machines are a lot cheaper than drummers, cheesy songs are cheaper than good ones and most reality tv crews don't have any writers or actors on the payroll, just camera crews and a director. It's about the buck.

So, here ya go, have some homogenized chocolate pie. I made it out of mud and a cardboard tortilla, but doesn't it look tasty? Everyone else is eating it!



So, what are you doing with your tools?

bunnerabb
April 18th, 2007, 04:21 AM
bad post

bunnerabb
April 18th, 2007, 04:23 AM
bunnerabb:
The biggest difference between pro and amateur is a paycheck.

Period.

Weedywet "I'm not that cynical".

I am.

weedywet
April 18th, 2007, 05:02 AM
as long as it makes you HAPPY

bunnerabb
April 18th, 2007, 05:04 AM
No, it keeps me from falling down.

Happy I do on my terms.

Progtronic
April 18th, 2007, 05:11 AM
so... what the fuck? how off topic did I go? 'cause it looks like I inadvertantly touched on a few on topic things...

I'm just going for negative rep power at this rate.. I hope that's possible...

bunnerabb
April 18th, 2007, 05:20 AM
sorted.

Progtronic
April 18th, 2007, 05:34 AM
<3

Johnny
April 18th, 2007, 05:34 AM
I'm tracking for CAPE tomorrow and now I'm inspired to kick ass.

Tim Halligan
April 18th, 2007, 11:49 AM
There's a dichotomy between the habitual moaning about the lack of quality music on the radio and the generally accepted opinion that things like computers, Otto, the Grid and other such tools are the chief implements used to tell the Big Lie, yet when we take on something like the Cape, instead of going back to the way things used to work, we reach for those very same tools that we curse every day.




Yeah...

It's kinda hard to go back to the old school methods with CAPE because of the physical location of the various participants, when it's the very gear that we moan about that makes projects like CAPE even possible...and affordable.

Different continents and different timezones make it extremely hard to get the band in the same room at the same time. We're never likely to see a "live to the 2-inch" kind of track...unless Mixie and Shaun specifically try and make one - which to me seems contrary to the spirit of CAPE.

What is at least being attempted is writing good songs.

The technology may change, but good writing will always be good writing. There's your quality right there.

Cheers,
Tim

CurtZHP
April 18th, 2007, 04:09 PM
I'm 100% in the box. not only one computer but also just one software program to do everything. I enjoy the challenge of trying to apply real world hardware rules to software.




There's a lot to be said for that, especially if the software/interface combination sounds good. You're not dealing with "Is this plug-in compatible with that software?" "How come this program doesn't work with my soundcard, but that one does?" "Where the hell am I supposed to put another dongle??"

Not to mention a shorter learning curve, only having to keep one set of keyboard shortcuts in your head, and not going bankrupt upgrading multilple platforms.

frnjplayer
April 18th, 2007, 04:35 PM
<3

Well well well.
It would appear that the Bunner just 'Varked you. :D
Now you look like a hockey fan.

st robert
April 18th, 2007, 04:43 PM
What is at least being attempted is writing good songs.




oh.


shit. we missed that part.

bbkong
April 18th, 2007, 04:53 PM
Yeah...

It's kinda hard to go back to the old school methods with CAPE because of the physical location of the various participants, when it's the very gear that we moan about that makes projects like CAPE even possible...and affordable.



Very true!

Again, it's not the tools in the box, but how the mechanic uses them.

To stretch that analogy, ever gone back to the car wash to pick up your car only to hear 'we thought your front bumper looked better on the rear, so we moved it. Oh, and we rearranged the gauges on your dashboard. We think they look better now.'?

If a race car driver could cut and paste his best lap all the way through the race, everyone would get to the finish line at the same time. And it'd be a pretty fucking boring race.

st robert
April 18th, 2007, 05:01 PM
There's a lot to be said for that, especially if the software/interface combination sounds good. You're not dealing with "Is this plug-in compatible with that software?" "How come this program doesn't work with my soundcard, but that one does?" "Where the hell am I supposed to put another dongle??"

Not to mention a shorter learning curve, only having to keep one set of keyboard shortcuts in your head, and not going bankrupt upgrading multilple platforms.

you make it sound as if it's some gigantic problem to keep this all straight and functional.

well, geez, i mean you gotta check your mirrors all the time, and make sure you don't slide it into reverse on the freeway. sometimes the light will turn red right after the yellow. and shit, you always need to keep it topped up with petrol, the tires will flatten on you, the seats creak, and the suspension is a major factor in many fatal accidents. stick with a 10-speed.

i'm not saying that murphy doesn't come bite you in the ass at times, but to limit ones self for some strange masochistic need to suffer for the art seems kind of counter productive to me.

progress.

eayah.

crunch
April 18th, 2007, 05:10 PM
It would appear that the Bunner just 'Varked you.

:lol:

Man, a new verb. Maybe it can be a movie... "The 'Varkenning"

I don't have anything to add (other than I suck), but this has been a pretty cool thread...

weedywet
April 18th, 2007, 05:17 PM
Yeah...

It's kinda hard to go back to the old school methods with CAPE because of the physical location of the various participants, when it's the very gear that we moan about that makes projects like CAPE even possible...and affordable.

while it's obvious that you can't collaborate long-distance and at different times and still all record at once to 2" tape... that says nothing about why someone CAPE-ing should feel the necessity to AutoTune, Beat Detective, Sound Replace, brickwall limit or any of those sorts of things.

a different matter entirely.


that's not INHERENT in the CAPE-yness.
that's just pressure people feel to be "pro", even though plenty of pros I know do much LESS of that stuff than the bedroom armies do.

CurtZHP
April 18th, 2007, 05:20 PM
you make it sound as if it's some gigantic problem to keep this all straight and functional.

well, geez, i mean you gotta check your mirrors all the time, and make sure you don't slide it into reverse on the freeway. sometimes the light will turn red right after the yellow. and shit, you always need to keep it topped up with petrol, the tires will flatten on you, the seats creak, and the suspension is a major factor in many fatal accidents. stick with a 10-speed.

i'm not saying that murphy doesn't come bite you in the ass at times, but to limit ones self for some strange masochistic need to suffer for the art seems kind of counter productive to me.

progress.

eayah.


No, not really. I'm sure we're all more than capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time when it comes to using a DAW. I'm just saying that, if he wants to do it all with just one program to keep it simple, I can't say I blame him.

He'd rather make his music his way than spend an appreciable amount of time playing "IT Guy."

st robert
April 18th, 2007, 05:41 PM
No, not really. I'm sure we're all more than capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time when it comes to using a DAW. I'm just saying that, if he wants to do it all with just one program to keep it simple, I can't say I blame him.

He'd rather make his music his way than spend an appreciable amount of time playing "IT Guy."


cheers to that.

J.G.
April 18th, 2007, 07:28 PM
:lol:

Man, a new verb. Maybe it can be a movie... "The 'Varkenning"

I don't have anything to add (other than I suck), but this has been a pretty cool thread...

Ahhhh, sweet, bubbling levity,
Raise your ugly mug and level me...

An enjoyable thread indeed.

Onward then, to the final Cape-down.

; J

Mixerpuppet
April 18th, 2007, 08:03 PM
The Big Lie is that I actually know what I'm talking about....


I think one of the obvious parts of the equation is that humans in general want to belong to a certain social contruct where they are accepted for their individuality yet comforted by similarity. Hense the "same but different" phrase that permeates culture.

Ella brings to mind a how music in one way is this circle jerk type of thing where we crave something new yet judge it against history. People do it with foods, fashion, etc....

Mainly this is all about your brain trying to file the information your senses just unloaded on you in a subliminal way. It's a very primitive brain function. But it's wired to your emotions which are highly complex and that means at some point the primitive and complex functions of the brain are going to have to resolve the information. If you are goingto fit into the proper social construct your brain know that filing the new information is critical so it begins to query how others have filed the information. Well, me being a left handed dyslexic with ADHD, it's more than likely I've filed it into many places forwards and backwards and can't remember where...

Statisically only about 3% of the global population are left handed ADHD'ers so the hoops and loops I go through for fitting into the 97% social construct creates some comorbid issues. So in the sense of musical creation, 97% of you are not going to like what I do.

I'm a crappy mixer to 97% of the population and fricking genius to 3% of the insitutionalized radicals. But I still try to make changes to make the 97% like it....

The analogy would be...

even though Im a chubby middle aged male with hair cropping up and falling out like a bad circus act, my ego would enjoy a nice evening with a few hot( female) chicks worshipping me with sex and Vintage Neve Nibnobs.(both properly racked).

I'd like to be able to write pop music and do things you 97% would like, but I am incapable of being more than just a annoying hack urinating on the musical landscape of life.


On the Pro vs Non-Pro thingie...


Artsy people are trying to use technology as a vehicle of expression. Not as a business case. The music industry in many ways has become a perverted capitalistic venture where the musicians lose. While there are alot of folks who got rich in the biz, many more entered financial ruin. Countless bands saving work money and gig money to finance demo's or albums that became nothing more that a deficit.

I think we put too much emphasis on whether someone is a pro or not. If your doing what you love and would do it even without pay then your not a pro but one of the most blessed people there are. But for those who do it for the money only, they are the true pro's because it's a job and nothing else.

Semi-Pro's are the ones who get the best of both... Those are the ones who take vacation days to record a band. The strange thing is that even though your usually limited in Time, gear and/or experience your never lacking freedom.

Instead of worrying about the things you can't do well or would like to do well, just do the things you like to do and leave the worrying at the door. The pro verses non-pro is really about being accepted by a peer group you want to be a part of. It's a subliminal form a descrimination if your not accepted because you lack Credi(ts)ibility and do you really want to be part of that peer group?

In the end....

Music, mixes and art are just emotions in a more tangible and form that you can share.

We all have finger prints that are different but we can hold hands none the less...

Philosophically speaking of coarse...

Cosmic Pig
April 18th, 2007, 08:16 PM
Ditto on an enjoyable thread. I'd probably enjoy it even more if I krew wtf you guys were on about.

I had a few thoughts as I was reading tho. Engineering and producing don't have a lot to do with music. And really, chops don't have a lot to do with it either. Chops are a tool. Good chops don't always mean good music. Like using a fancy 18 volt multi-head shiny drill to drive a screw, if you don't know how to use it it drives the screw in too far and strips the head. Okay stupid analogy, but it seems to me it applies to music and engineering as well.

Which is just a fancy way to say it's about the music... man.

And that's about the extent of my gleanage. Small interesting things said in a quest for nothing. I tried rereading... nope. Sparked up another joint, still nothing.

Cos.

Azraphael
April 18th, 2007, 09:11 PM
An interesting read....

Yeah, there's a certain amount of ragging on some technologies here. Some of that is justified, some of it is akin to old men sitting on a park bench complaining about how it was better in their day, while watching the pretty young girls go by.

My question, simply put, is: So fucking what?

Same thing happens everywhere. People rag on some stuff, and like other stuff. Welcome to the world of personal opinion.

I don't think the advances in technology for recording music havemeant the downfall of the record industry. I think greed did that, pure and simple. As others have said, don't blame the tools.

I don't get the impression that the fact that these tools exist is some kind of blasphemy to people here. I think the general thought is that when you use them as a crutch, there's a problem. Same goes for any time or effort saving device, really. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and by relying on autotune to save a performance rather than retracking that performance, you're possibly saving time (and money). However, the trade-off for that, in some cases at least, is the subjective quality of the art itself.

The ability to express emotional concepts through art (in this case music) is not something that everyone has. Unfortunately, since it's art, it is subjective and therefore the quality is up to the listener at the end of the day. Sure, there's guidelines, but one man's trash is another man's treasure, so to speak.

Hence the international success of Britney Spears.

This isn't about finding a whipping boy. Nor is it about complaining for the sake of complaining. These fora represent a mixture of people involved with or interested in the music industry and process of writing, recording, mixing and mastering music getting together to chat. As in any social situation, there will be differences of opinion.

Get used to it.

No one is making anyone use or not use these tools. In fact, more often than not, I see healthy discussion about generally accepted appropriate use of these tools, and there's a ton of great information to be had.

Which brings me to the "too many pros on these fora" concept mentioned earlier.

Simply put, quit yer whining. Yeah, there's a lot of pros around these parts. But, from what I've seen, they hang out here because they like to help the little guy. There are people on these fora that have been involved with making some records that I seriously dig. And, through these fora, I have a chance to shoot the proverbial shit with them, and pick up a thing or two along the way.

Sounds to me like those that feel uncomfortable with the level of discussion around here don't need to look any further than themselves. Instead of bitching about there not being enough content for the indies out there, why not create some? Ask your questions, post your points of view, and learn something from it.

Bitching that there's no content catered to you because the people who provide most of the content are at a different level than you is ridiculous, in my opinion.

Using myself as an example, I'm a musician. Have been for a long time. I'm just now getting into audio engineering seriously. And I'm using this place as a resource. Do I feel intimidated by the level of conversation among the pros? Not at all. I contribute where I can, ask all the questions I want to, and move on with my life.

Hell, my studio doesn't even have fucking walls, and I'm telling everyone all about it in the Womb University forum. Yeah, I know that my setup is a joke compared to what some people are used... BUT, because they're used to something better, I can get a different perspective from them that I can learn from. I prefer that to just chatting it up with only the bedroom hacks so that everyone feels like they're in the same grade.

I'm not here to have my ego stroked. I'm here to learn, and to meet some cool people. Both of which I'm doing on a regular basis.

What's not to love?

At the end of the day, this is a community that you are a part of. If you're not diggin' it, I think you have 2 choices: either walk away, or do something about it.

The world is what we make of it, after all.

Cheers,

Dave

PS: This post is not idrected at any individual(s). Just me general thoughts onthe stuff I've seen floating by in this thread.

Pimp-X
April 18th, 2007, 09:32 PM
It must be reiterated:

Only a poor craftsman blames his tools.

And I will add:

No craftsman has every tool, but chooses their right tool to get the job done to their greatest achievable perfection.

J.G.
April 18th, 2007, 09:44 PM
It must be reiterated:

Only a poor craftsman blames his tools.

And I will add:

No craftsman has every tool, but chooses their right tool to get the job done to their greatest achievable perfection.

Zat some hi-falutin' way of calling someone a tool?

; J

Pimp-X
April 18th, 2007, 09:51 PM
Zat some hi-falutin' way of calling someone a tool?

; J


Does the shoe fit, J? :lol:

J.G.
April 18th, 2007, 10:35 PM
Does the shoe fit, J? :lol:

What you're talkin' 'bout, Pimp?

; J

eagan
April 18th, 2007, 10:45 PM
Chops are a tool. Good chops don't always mean good music. Like using a fancy 18 volt multi-head shiny drill to drive a screw, if you don't know how to use it it drives the screw in too far and strips the head. Okay stupid analogy, but it seems to me it applies to music and engineering as well.

Which is just a fancy way to say it's about the music... man.



I must jump upon that there from Senor Pig.

Why?

Can you see, Cos, that you contradicted yourself there? Maybe a little review there might be good.

Anyway, it might be an example of some of the misunderstanding that causes problems with people recording with the current technology we're rattling on about.

In that analogy, if you use your fancy drill to drive in a screw and tear things up, that's a case of lack of chops.

This is a major point to focus on.

There's the tools at hand, and there's knowing what to use at a given moment, then knowing how to use them right, and then finally actually using them right.

Let's put it this way.

Good engineering chops won't make good music.

Bad engineering chops, on the other hand, can certainly ruin good music, or at least damage it quite a bit.

(Not a trivial point to add, either....I'm not just talking about the sound of the finished recording, but the actual process as well. Somebody want to try telling us that musicians are really ON and making magic happen in a studio when there's some insane technical clusterfuck happening?)


Probably the worst of what we're talking about, methinks, starts with not so great engineering chops, combined with some kind of misguided ideas of "what's the PRO THING" to do, which, as WW pointed out, is not necessarily anything based in reality in terms of what "the pros" they imagine actually do on a regular basis.


JLE

Cosmic Pig
April 18th, 2007, 11:18 PM
In that analogy, if you use your fancy drill to drive in a screw and tear things up, that's a case of lack of chops.

This is a major point to focus on.

There's the tools at hand, and there's knowing what to use at a given moment, then knowing how to use them right, and then finally actually using them right.

Ezackly. When I said chops I was refering to musical chops, ie hot licks on guitar. You can screw up a tune with fancy chops, both licks and gear. Both are tools. I've heard awful stuff done by hot players playing the wrong thing and engineers twiddling the wrong knob more often than... well that second joint seems to be working.

Suffice to say, I may have. Fortuitously I can still analogize;

It's like the other day watching the dog lick his balls. I figured "hey, looks like fun, wonder if I can do that".















They tasted terrible, but I learned something.

Cos.

vocalnick
April 19th, 2007, 12:31 AM
I think I see where Eagan is coming from. If a player with good technique has spooged a great pile of tasteless wank all over a fine tune, then perhaps his chops are not infact all that great. The word "chops" in this instance would refer not just to the technical ability, but also the sense of when it is appropriate to unleash that dexterity, and when to reign it in. I'm sure the same could be applied ton the other side of the double glazing.


Mmmmmm..... chops....

Mixerman
April 19th, 2007, 06:05 AM
There's a dichotomy between the habitual moaning about the lack of quality music on the radio and the generally accepted opinion that things like computers, Otto, the Grid and other such tools are the chief implements used to tell the Big Lie, yet when we take on something like the Cape, instead of going back to the way things used to work, we reach for those very same tools that we curse every day.I have many comments to make on this thread, but I'm short on time at this particular moment. But I would like to make one (as it turns out long) comment. Cape isn't possible without technology. Doing Cape with 2" isn't reasonable. Bands can't rehearse. There is no Producer. The arrangement is typically built one instrument at a time. Bandwidth is necessary to trade files. Very few people ever meet each other who create together. It's a completely whacky way to make a record, and therefore, using technology is a necessity. JUST like using technology with a band that can't fucking play their instruments is a necessity.

One of the operative words in the CAPE acronym is experiment. I did a song last CAPE with a bunch of talented cats, and as the mixer and pointman, I had a LOT of tracks that I had to sort through, arrange, edit out, cut and paste. Working with a grid and using a DAW are just what is required to actually work in a reasonable amount of time, given that it's a recreational activity. Hey, if some great creation comes out of it, fantastic. But the technology is what makes CAPE possible. It is not some odd exercise in hypocrisy.

I fucking hate Pro Tools. I watch how lazy people get on that piece of garbage, and I hate the way it sounds on organic music, especially organic rock music. Electronica? They're already samples, so who gives a flying fuck about working in the box. That kind of production isn't affected by Pro Tools.

But for CAPE, I used Pro Tools (through a console) and for two reasons. One, it happened to be the DAW in the room that I was mixing in. Two, there was no client, and this was recreational, so it was "good enough."

So, let's not confuse a disdain for how the Major Labels have used technology to push shitty musicians who happen to look good upon the public, with using a tool for a very narrowly scoped experiment designed to promote networking within a community. And let's remember that there are quite a few professionals and hobbyists alike that hang here, who believe in, and wholeheartedly embrace, the technology of grids, tuning and plug-ins. So, it's not really that surprising that these tools are being used for CAPE as well. And it's certainly not hypocritical.

That's all for now. Great thread.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Progtronic
April 19th, 2007, 07:25 AM
epic... thread...

:Coolio:

J.G.
April 19th, 2007, 09:03 AM
So, let's not confuse a disdain for how the Major Labels have used technology to push shitty musicians who happen to look good upon the public, with using a tool for a very narrowly scoped experiment designed to promote networking within a community.

NICE. :Thumbsup:

And hey, if there's indeed enough concern/curiosity about plug-in usage/abusage in CAPE, there's always the option to plop up a thread where teams can, if they like, add notes regarding what was used on the tracks. In the name of science and all...

: J

magicchord
April 19th, 2007, 04:06 PM
I totally agree with Mixerman on this... :icon_eek:

ella
April 19th, 2007, 06:06 PM
I suppose that's the source of my confusion, what experiment the 'E' stood for. As an experiment designed to promote networking, it's very successful. Lots of great folk out there! If the experiment was to determine if really good tunes could arise from an internet collaboration, huge success. My statements were based on different experimental parameters as the leveling effect of technology would heavily weigh experimental results, leading the experimenter to conclude that whatever is put in the petrie dish it always comes back full of daisies.

There's no question that technology is what makes something like CAPE possible, and is as well a perfect application for the tools, based on the experiments scope and objective.

And I agree with what was said earlier about the abuse of tools being the same as abusing an instrument, and how it is contextual. One of my greatest learning experiences was walking into a studio, a cocky teenager, ready to lay down some magic. The intimidation of watching those reels slowly spinning while I struggled with the click was replaced by pure horror as I listened to playback. But I'm good, I desperately thought, my friends tell me so. Thankfully, the engineer didn't say what he must have been thinking (you suck get out) and was able to coax a decent performance out of me..... albeit a very pared down performance compared to what I had intended (bucket-a bucket-a weedle weedle wank etc). There was no fixing. Those speakers were brutally honest. I felt like quitting but didn't, instead digging in my heels and vowing to never let that happen again. Of course it did, and to some degree still does. Dammit.

ggunn
April 19th, 2007, 06:44 PM
Ella brings to mind a how music in one way is this circle jerk type of thing where we crave something new yet judge it against history. People do it with foods, fashion, etc....


Many years ago I read a treatise in Scientific American where the authors conducted a study to try to answer the question "What makes good music?" The conclusion of the piece was that what makes music "good" is a delicate balance between the expected and the unexpected.

Makes sense to me.

ella
April 19th, 2007, 07:29 PM
If you don't have a home, going somewhere loses significance.

bunnerabb
April 19th, 2007, 07:44 PM
If you don't have a home, going somewhere loses significance.

Goal.

weedywet
April 19th, 2007, 08:30 PM
On the Pro vs Non-Pro thingie...


Artsy people are trying to use technology as a vehicle of expression. Not as a business case. The music industry in many ways has become a perverted capitalistic venture where the musicians lose. While there are alot of folks who got rich in the biz, many more entered financial ruin. Countless bands saving work money and gig money to finance demo's or albums that became nothing more that a deficit. ...


Professional producers mixers and engineers ALSO use technology as a vehicle of expression.
And perhaps, if you're lucky, have the experience, and talent, and drive to get the MOST out of the record.

It's not the music business's "fault" that band's finance themselves into a "deficit".
remember that's the NEW model. in the old model, the label financed it or you couldn't really MAKE a record.
So maybe there was an upside to the old model?

If a label gave you 100,000 dollars to make a record plus paid to put you on the road and maybe bought you some equipment and a van and put out your record - and then it never sells, you don't break even on paper and you never make any money DIRECTLY from record royalties... you were STILL usually better off than if they had never signed you.
The exceptions are when you could have made more doing it ALL yourselves. But then you're gambling with YOUR money.

anyway, this is a tangent, but I couldn't entirely let it go.
I don't buy the Albini rap, but I know it's appealing as a marketing ploy.

I don't know any bands who signed to majors who ended up WORSE off.
Many never got rich (including my band), but no one LOST money.
Most made a living without needing day jobs.

I think we put too much emphasis on whether someone is a pro or not. If your doing what you love and would do it even without pay then your not a pro but one of the most blessed people there are. But for those who do it for the money only, they are the true pro's because it's a job and nothing else. ...

Again, i both disagree that pros only do it "for the money" and that there's nothing to be gained by working with someone who perhaps does it for a living and has doen so successfully for a long TIME.

I don't see a semi-pro doctor either.
even though he'd only be in it for the love of surgery...:Twisted:

it's not just a "job" for me and never HAS been.

And I doubt it is for Bob or Kenny or Mixerman or Slipperman or Charles or any of the others here who do this for a living.

Progtronic
April 19th, 2007, 08:40 PM
If a label gave you 100,000 dollars to make a record plus paid to put you on the road and maybe bought you some equipment and a van and put out your record...

labels are GIVING away money?!

WHERE DO I SIGN?!!!

:Twisted:

Mixerman
April 19th, 2007, 08:51 PM
it's not just a "job" for me and never HAS been.

And I doubt it is for Bob or Kenny or Mixerman or Slipperman or Charles or any of the others here who do this for a living.

No shit. I mean, many of us here do it for our living AND our recreation. Now that's dedication!

Enjoy,

Mixerman

rockdart
April 19th, 2007, 08:51 PM
There's more than one way to skin a cat.

If you have several tools available in skinning cats, you're going to use the one that works best for you.

On average.

Some days, the skinning o' the cat must be done quickly and cheaply.

Sometimes, you get a cat that can be skinned over days and done intricately.

Othertimes, it's just the same old, same old assembly line of cats being skinned in the same way in the same amount of time.

Now, you might think initially that one way would be able to apply to all, but after you've butchered the cat in your skinning attempt, you will probably change your mind and find a different way, but still rely on your experience with your preferred skinning method. You may even try to talk people into allowing you to skin in your most preferred method. Other times the requirements dictate you skin the way someone else tells you or environments dictate that skinning method.

It's quite a (tennis) racket.

But all the different talk amoungst the skinners just provides a better and greater toolset. Sometimes that's confusing due to all the options. Sometimes you rethink how you skin and it makes you better immediately, or after an initial butchering period, you eventually get there.

At the end of the day though, you must ask yourself "Am I the cat, or the skinner?"

Mixerpuppet
April 19th, 2007, 10:37 PM
Dang your pot is easy to stir....

I heard guitarists can be that way! :lol: :Razz:



I don't see a semi-pro doctor either.
even though he'd only be in it for the love of surgery...:Twisted:


If you do your research you'll find there are some odd parallels with how Audio Engineering became a profession and how surgery became a profession. You'll find for one thing that for a significantly longer period of time surgery was and still is to a certain extent semi-pro. Which is why medical malpractice insurance is so expensive. Not because they make lots of money on it, but because they payout is so high. Then leave the country and look at the "professional" surgens lurking in 3rd world countries... Yikes! :icon_eek:


Anyhow, your argument is based on a "limited" number of success rather than the rule. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to run the numbers and see the percent of successes are dwarfed by the number of failures. Your not going to see that from where you sit. But the exposion of Indie Labels is a good indicator that Big Labels were screwing people.... including themselves.

In September 02, Cary Sherman claimed in testimony for the RIAA that 9 out of 10 artists who get signed never make money... and it was going to get worse.

IM glad you not in IT for the MONEY, but your NOT exactly the type I'd call a PROfessional. Your a rare freak ANOMALLY that does live and STUDIO work in tandem or on other odd combinations. You represent less than 1% of the norm.

And furthermore your last protest to what I think makes me think ya didn't read the part you even quoted...

I never said that ALL pro's do it "just" for the money... You missed my nuance and tried to respond with a generality... So maybe let me rephrase it...

In the world outside of the record industry... "professionals" are people who work for money and thier passions lie outside of what happens at the office. They choose thier degree and/or job not by what interests them, but rather what offers them the best salary and benefits package. That doesn't translate all that well once your INSIDE the music industry. Especially when you've been IN the industry for as LONG as YOU have.

Too much time on top of an Ivory Palace heh?

Seriously... there are huge differences from my view point from yours because where you went up I fell off. I have alot of respect for you and your accomplishments but the Prince's will never agree with the view thay can't see because of thier relative position.


Am I jealous you might ask?


Yes and No...

:)

P.S. I know several people who were in bands that got strung along by major labels that spent tens of thouands of dollars on Demos' and full up albums only to be left standing at the alter.


If a label gave me $100,000 for an album.... in the 90's I would have been $250,000 in the red before Mixie even holstered the razor blades.

And Finally!!!

IM really disappointed that you not only missed my first statement and totally blew past my totally tongue in cheek psyco-babble treatise on subliminal brain funtion!!!

See...

I told you only about 3% would agree with me....

:Surprised:

bbkong
April 19th, 2007, 10:48 PM
Haha!

Man, there's a lot of dancing around this Maypole and now we have dead cats too.


I'm just as guilty of telling the Big Lie as anybody here. At one time I was even proud of it and thought it was the main reason I got any work at all. Then I saw the light!

I sold the Yamaha and got a Harley and finally understood the difference.

For what it's worth, these days I have a habit of waiting till the band is set up, mics are in place and everyone is ready to start, and I casually mention that we don't 'fix it in the mix' here right before I hit the red button.

You can actually hear the assholes puckering up during the count off like corks in a bottle.

I think the reliance on the fix has gotten way too pervasive too.

eagan
April 20th, 2007, 12:49 AM
I think I see where Eagan is coming from. If a player with good technique has spooged a great pile of tasteless wank all over a fine tune, then perhaps his chops are not infact all that great. The word "chops" in this instance would refer not just to the technical ability, but also the sense of when it is appropriate to unleash that dexterity, and when to reign it in. I'm sure the same could be applied ton the other side of the double glazing.

Not to drag that one item out, but let's be clear about that one.

What I was doing was simply busting the Spacy Swine about what ended up being a really crappy analogy in trying to make his point.

To recap, his bit about using a shiny fancy snazzy drill to drive screws and then stripping the hell out of them.

My point was that this wasn't a case of "chops" then producing bad results, it was, in fact, a case of good equipment, but lousy chops, producing bad results.

Much different.

But if we want to continue on those lines, we can break this stuff down to end sonic results being a sum of:

1. equipment
2. "chops" (read as: knowledge, skill, and ability to apply them)
3. taste and judgement

Given that, then, we can debate how much weight those factors have in the final finished item.


JLE

dikledoux
April 20th, 2007, 01:03 AM
For what it's worth, these days I have a habit of waiting till the band is set up, mics are in place and everyone is ready to start, and I casually mention that we don't 'fix it in the mix' here right before I hit the red button.

You can actually hear the assholes puckering up during the count off like corks in a bottle.
I wanna have your babies.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

dik

vocalnick
April 20th, 2007, 01:03 AM
1. equipment
2. "chops" (read as: knowledge, skill, and ability to apply them)
3. taste and judgement

Aha... I was tending toward lumping #2 & #3 together, but I believe I was attempting to arrive at the same place...

I think...

lebouche
April 20th, 2007, 01:04 AM
Not to drag that one item out, but let's be clear about that one.

What I was doing was simply busting the Spacy Swine about what ended up being a really crappy analogy in trying to make his point.

To recap, his bit about using a shiny fancy snazzy drill to drive screws and then stripping the hell out of them.

My point was that this wasn't a case of "chops" then producing bad results, it was, in fact, a case of good equipment, but lousy chops, producing bad results.

Much different.

But if we want to continue on those lines, we can break this stuff down to end sonic results being a sum of:

1. equipment
2. "chops" (read as: knowledge, skill, and ability to apply them)
3. taste and judgement

Given that, then, we can debate how much weight those factors have in the final finished item.


JLE
Actually the one thing I belive in is my judgement taste wise.
I was recording this amazing singer today and we were laying down tracks.. I realised and said..if you were recording a guitar and vocal song that style of git would be good but we are going for full production and if you were a guitar player comping yourself you would fire yourself. It needs to be simpler.
And lo behold the heavens opened and we had a solid git track doubled and tight...no bullshit and the vocals were afolwing like milk and honey in the promised land.
You have to trust your judgement in taste but taste is personal and not applicable to all...
so fuck ya'll who don't like it when I post it:grin:

weedywet
April 20th, 2007, 01:52 AM
so 9 out of 10 artistes who get signed never make "any" money (again how "any money" is defined makes a BIG difference... Too Much Joy never made any record royalties.. so the RIAA could say we never made "any money".. but that doesn't count the gear, the tour support, the publishing advance or royalties, the T-Shirts and DVD sales and on and on... everyone made a living for the life of the band)..

but in any event, how many artistes who make their own records and put them out or post them online "make any money"

I'd guess the percentage is the SAME, at best, most likely worse.


Mostly though, I have problems with the idea that someone is "better off" with a "semi-pro"

it's not that I'm saying no one should be, or employ, a "semi-pro"... i'm just not accepting it's "BETTER"

I wouldn't even have quibbled if you'd said a semi-pro can be "as good" in a given situation.
THat's potentially certainly true.

but BETTER on principle by dint of being NOT a (shudder) jaded, only in it for the money, professional?
yes, I DO bristle at that.


because it's bollocks.

st robert
April 20th, 2007, 08:56 AM
i am sorry if this is off topic, but i think there might be a problem with your keyboard.

spray some wd-40 in the shift key and the " key, then shake the fucker a bit and start typing again.

as you were


rob

knightsy
April 20th, 2007, 10:10 AM
but BETTER on principle by dint of being NOT a (shudder) jaded, only in it for the money, professional?
yes, I DO bristle at that.


because it's bollocks.

Well said.

ggunn
April 20th, 2007, 03:03 PM
I don't know any bands who signed to majors who ended up WORSE off.
Many never got rich (including my band), but no one LOST money.
Most made a living without needing day jobs.


Under the old model there were bands for whom signing, at least with whom they signed, was a bad move. Part of the "old model" was for labels to sign bands to tie them up and keep them from signing with anyone else, and then keep them on the shelf until (maybe) they had a use for them. Like Uncle Frank said "sign on the line for a real good time but they wouldn't tell us when..."

I think there's a good chance we'd have never heard of Molly Hatchet had Lynyrd Skynyrd not gone down in a blaze of glory.

Swafford
April 20th, 2007, 03:10 PM
OK I read this thread last night and I'm pretty sure you folks think to much. Mostly because the Big Lie is pretty much a component of everything in a value exchange economy. I don't remember what that means, but when I use to think, it was something that Herbert Marcuse blathered on about in one treatise or another, and I nodded my thinking, complicated head in agreement.

Mixerpuppet
April 20th, 2007, 03:12 PM
Mostly though, I have problems with the idea that someone is "better off" with a "semi-pro"

it's not that I'm saying no one should be, or employ, a "semi-pro"... i'm just not accepting it's "BETTER"

I wouldn't even have quibbled if you'd said a semi-pro can be "as good" in a given situation.
THat's potentially certainly true.

but BETTER on principle by dint of being NOT a (shudder) jaded, only in it for the money, professional?
yes, I DO bristle at that.


because it's bollocks.

There's were we separated... my fault for babbling without clarity....

I was not taking about technical skills as much as I was attitude. Im not saying "better off" with a semi-pro, I think I would rather work with a semi-pro with gobs of passion than a pro with indifference. ( I had a Doctor who was indifferent)

Or as you said in another post... smashing instruments rather that being a stick in the mud. The attitude...

Certainly I agree with you about the abilities of a professional being "more often than not", better at doing the job. I might be able to win that argument only for specific people who are 9 to 5 house engineers who get caught day dreaming during a spool dump. Just maybe!

My angle was more from a personal satisfaction level and quality of life than technical performance or ability. The biggest difference being in how much you care about what you do. Passionate verses Indifferent....and we can add jaded to that now.

That's why I said we put too much emphasis on Pro... Because I believe there are more important aspects we should be looking for. But it's a opinion and not a fact...


I'd rather work with a Jaded Pro than a Jaded Semi-Pro :)



I don't think in real basic terms, I have about 50 billion peripheral nuances that impact a particular view.


Since I missed the whole point of the thread...

Tools....

Mixerman
April 20th, 2007, 03:42 PM
There's were we separated... my fault for babbling without clarity....

I was not taking about technical skills as much as I was attitude. Im not saying "better off" with a semi-pro, I think I would rather work with a semi-pro with gobs of passion than a pro with indifference.

I'd ONLY work with someone that had passion, regardless of their professional status. I would imagine the same could be said for you. Therefore, you seem to have this belief that there is an unusually high percentage of "indifferent pros." I'm not sure where that stems from, but I don't think "indifferent pros" are going to spend their leisure time talking about a profession in which they are indifferent.

I know that for me, I only appear indifferent when my attempts to help are thwarted to such great extent, that my most useful role on the project would be to stay out of the way.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Johnny
April 20th, 2007, 03:53 PM
I only appear indifferent when my attempts to help are thwarted to such great extent, that my most useful role on the project would be to stay out of the way, and write about it for your enjoyment.
Fixed. :)

bbkong
April 20th, 2007, 04:11 PM
An indifferent pro would seem to have a limited shelf life imo.

That kinda stuff spills out of the monitors.

Mixerpuppet
April 20th, 2007, 05:26 PM
I'd ONLY work with someone that had passion, regardless of their professional status. I would imagine the same could be said for you.


Being a freelancer you have more of choice in the matter and living in the LA certainly enhances that choice. I have worked with indifferent people and obviously it has left an impression.

Now maybe because of this online community you've graciously offered to the public is full on enthusiastic passionate people that those people Im talking about are not here.

Makes sense, you typically don't find people hanging out in places they are indifferent to which could lead one to the conclusion that indifferent people do not exist.



Therefore, you seem to have this belief that there is an unusually high percentage of "indifferent pros." I'm not sure where that stems from, but I don't think "indifferent pros" are going to spend their leisure time talking about a profession in which they are indifferent.

Did I say or IMPLY "high percentage"? (not the success to failure ratio of bands getting major label support) :lol:

The mere existance of one such creature would be a tragedy to someone...

But strangely enough I have found indifferent people spending their leisure time talking about thier profession...


Usually in a negative way...


I had a no whining sign posted!!



I know that for me, I only appear indifferent when my attempts to help are thwarted to such great extent, that my most useful role on the project would be to stay out of the way.

Enjoy,

Mixerman


Appearance leads to perception and we all know that reality is the culmination of multiple perceptions.

So are you IMPLYING that "my" experiences could be based upon seeing indifference when it didn't exist?

Doesn't this all kinda go back to your sphere of experience?

All I can say is that it sucks royally if I'm the only person who has worked with indifferent individuals.

Maybe it's me and I bring out the indifference in people! :Sad:

That would also explain the Reindeer game bannings...

Don't you find it funny that I admitted to not knowing anything in my opening post and yet folks are compelled to keep driving that message home?

ggunn
April 20th, 2007, 07:13 PM
Did I say or infer "high percentage"? (not the success to failure ratio of bands getting major label support) :lol:

[...]

So are you inferring that "my" experiences could be based upon seeing indifference when it didn't exist?



Pardon me for nitpicking, but from context I believe what you mean to say is "imply" instead of "infer".

Crawling back into the woodwork now... ;^)

bunnerabb
April 20th, 2007, 07:22 PM
Show up, whack that sumbitch with everything you got, make it sound good and something you're proud of... when it's all just another day at work; open a shoe store.

weedywet
April 22nd, 2007, 10:12 PM
why would I want to "whack a sumbitch" when i could be making records instead?

bunnerabb
April 23rd, 2007, 12:43 AM
Yeah, we all know who you are.

But that doesn't make a simple metaphor lame or anybody less than who they are.

Ya know?

I think you'd have a lot to offer on this website if you could just stop waving your resumè.

magicchord
April 23rd, 2007, 03:29 AM
Aw, c'mon, I think weedy has shown admirable restraint.

No stories about coking it up with rockstars or anything like that.

bunnerabb
April 23rd, 2007, 03:32 AM
yeah, I spoz.

I mean, we all know he makes records.

Drop some science, WW, we know you're good.

weedywet
April 24th, 2007, 04:19 AM
Yeah, we all know who you are.

But that doesn't make a simple metaphor lame or anybody less than who they are.

Ya know?

I think you'd have a lot to offer on this website if you could just stop waving your resumè.

what on EARTH in that comment has anything at ALL to do with resumé?????


what it honestly DOES have to do (i had hoped in a friendly, amusing, sarcastic way... not a mean spirited way, which is apparently how you read it) is that I suppose it seems to me that saying things like "whack that thing on it" or "smash it into submission" or "slam it down into place" and other similarly colourful expressions here a) don't really say much about what one actually DOES, and b) sometimes actually give the impression that people are doing MORE than they really are.

I remember being in a discussion recently with someone who had said something about "smashing it with" this or that compressor, when in reality, upon further discussion, he was compressing 2-3 dB. Hardly what I'd call SMASHING, and therefore perhaps not the best explanation to anyone who was reading along and trying to learn something about what other people do.

Sometimes being colourful is just being uncommunicative.

that's all.

weedywet
April 24th, 2007, 04:29 AM
P.S. does "everyone" really know who i am?

damn.

at least they don't know where I live.:Twisted:

sqkychair
April 24th, 2007, 03:28 PM
why would I want to "whack a sumbitch" when i could be making records instead?

He was talking about your bass. :lol:

I don't know who you are, but someone with your name has an impressive resume.

Mixerpuppet
April 24th, 2007, 04:36 PM
P.S. does "everyone" really know who i am?

damn.

at least they don't know where I live.:Twisted:


heh heh...

IM sure NOT everyone does...




IMO...

I think bunnerabb just called you a tease ;)



You've been dropping crumbs here and there when most of us know there is a big old basket FULL of goodies to be had. I was a member at the old Artist Pro bbs where Joe Chiccarelli had a forum and I've seen the basket of goodies. I've gotten at least 2 maple bars and one chocolate muffin... But Im gonna keep poking at ya until I get ahold of the bear claw...

Pardon my reach :)

magicchord
April 24th, 2007, 04:46 PM
P.S. does "everyone" really know who i am?

damn.

at least they don't know where I live.:Twisted:

What is it with you guys from the R|E|P?
Don't want people to know you're over here?
I took a shower this morning. And I used deodorant. And clipped my nose hairs.
Your name is in your Public profile.
You guys can only do Good over here (keep Mixerman humble).
It's not just you, there's others that lurk, you should all say hello.
What's the big deal?
Hmmmm?

leester
April 24th, 2007, 05:47 PM
P.S. does "everyone" really know who i am?

damn.


FWIW - you were the first person I ever got into an internet smack-down fight with. (on a mailing list 6-8 years ago mebby?) A week or two after I calmed down, it was kinda obvious we'd been saying pretty much the same thing in two different ways... err something like that.

What'd I learn? Read the weedy one twice before disagreeing. :lol:

lees

eagan
April 24th, 2007, 08:15 PM
P.S. does "everyone" really know who i am?

damn.

at least they don't know where I live.:Twisted:


Yeah! You're that guy, right? That guy that plays with that one chick, you know, the one that does that song.... and you recorded those other guys, too, and some other guys who did some stuff.


Now that we have all that out of the way...

So, what is one supposed to do when making a record ends up making it seem necessary that you do whack a sumbitch?


JLE

weedywet
April 24th, 2007, 08:52 PM
FWIW i'm not "hiding" or lurking, because as was pointe dout, I put my address in my profile..

but in discussion with a mod early on, it was pointed out that so many people here use nicknames instead of names, that it seemed more in the 'culture' of the place

that's all; no big conspiracy of silence.

magicchord
April 24th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Oh, I should use more smileys, because I was just being silly.
We're all just guys (and a few gals) here.
I'm happy to see you here, WW. Ignore the hecklers.

bunnerabb
April 24th, 2007, 09:22 PM
So, what is one supposed to do when making a record ends up making it seem necessary that you do whack a sumbitch?


JLE

Either turn it up to welding volume and just bang away at it or:

If you have to whack someBODY, it's probably the producer.

Bring visqueen and a shovel.

Zoesch
April 25th, 2007, 12:17 AM
Heh, gotta love this thread for all the right and wrong reasons simultaneously.

It was said before, difference comes from attitude (Which should include a generous dose of humility) and not the tools. But we are a spoiled bunch, for sure.

The problem is not that some guy was paid millions of dollars to ottotune and soundreplace every bit of the limp performance of some nameless band. The problem is that people WANT that.

So, unless you want to alienate yourself from your core business/audience you have to go with the flow.

Doesn't mean there isn't people out there making great records with the aforementioned tools. Au contraire.

Just that the people who put out (Artists and engineers) great records these days are less concerned with the fucking toolshed and the tools inside and more concerned about making something spectacular with said tools.

Sometimes we miss the forest for the lumberjacks and their shiny chainsaws. :lol:

To me at least Protools sounds like canned crap, but hey, that's my opinion and doesn't immediately by the laws of the Universe (or internet) become "The ultimate truth"

The desktop recording revolution was supposed to bring unseen levels of freedom to artists everywhere to demo at will and unleash their creative forces.

It left us with a ton of washed out musicians that claim to be engineers just because they have access to limitless virtual thingamabobs (Not because they know HOW to use them and more importantly, know WHEN and WHY to use them).

Lazy buggers... all of them.

Kinda reminds me when any idiot with a PC and a text editor was a "Web Designer" without any consideration as to skills and taste.

The "lowest common denominator" society we've become, I guess...

And then... there's the issue of passion. Just knowing isn't enough, you gotta feel it and feel it hard (NTTAWWT BTW!). If you're just pulling faders and knobs with no feeling, you're making music mechanical and dispassionate.

What service are you doing to the music then?

So while bashing tools is cool and funny within certain limits, it's more fun to bash the attitude and the lack of common sense and passion that runs through the industry these days.

I mean...

Listen to the last thing you recorded/mixed/produced (Yours or someone else's). Do you feel good when you listen to it (Regardless of polishing), do you feel passion when you think about it?

Can...you? feel it? ;)

Mixerpuppet
April 25th, 2007, 02:00 AM
FWIW i'm not "hiding" or lurking, because as was pointe dout, I put my address in my profile..

but in discussion with a mod early on, it was pointed out that so many people here use nicknames instead of names, that it seemed more in the 'culture' of the place

that's all; no big conspiracy of silence.



I used to use my real name....

But I got tired of hearing the word "Who?" all the time

which inevitably led to the answer of "nobody"...

My nickname has more to do with the fact mixerman knows I'm not a real mixer and my strings are easily knotted up when people type fast...

Mixerman has been highly tolerant of me thus far only because he knows that in order to maintain a business license in the State of California he must comply with State regulation of not being descriminative against the mentally disabled. Or in the moderators forum they just refer to me as the token retard of the womb. In the scientific community and audio community I's refered to the guy who can't mix warm and cold water together without something going horribly wrong...

As magicchord noted previously it makes him happy that your here...

Im not happy at all...

I think the term delighted is more fitting since "happy" comes with owning a shiny hat or something...

Yeah...


Shiney hats..

Cosmic Pig
April 25th, 2007, 06:12 AM
Wow you guys are sure big time I guess. I'd have a hard time too if I knew Mick Jagger. Keeping it all hush hush would be hard, and I'm sure every once in a while a little giggle would escape with a flit of the sly eyeballs to those in the know. How you guys manage to type while tittering behind hankies I can't imagine.

Anyways... per indifferent AEs: It's been my limited experience that the level of indifference is in direct relation to the level of project and the level of musician. Which is why I really don't like most AEs, except you guys of course.

Can anybody here really say they treat the crappy teenage garage band with rich parents the same as hot players with connections? Most of us probably can't, but I suspect that has more to do with size of the dead blankie pile at the end of a session with kids for most of you guys here.

The AEs that drive me batty are the ones putting in time with your project to pay the bills while they wait for a real band.

Or maybe its just an ego thing. I don't fucking know what I'm talking about. But I'm mad as hell and won't take it anymore.

All I know for sure is you guys are fags. Full bladder squirming hankie tittering eyelash batted dancing fags.

Cos.

weedywet
April 25th, 2007, 08:46 AM
Can anybody here really say they treat the crappy teenage garage band with rich parents the same as hot players with connections? Most of us probably can't, but I suspect that has more to do with size of the dead blankie pile at the end of a session with kids for most of you guys here.


I give the same "treatment" to any project I agree to do.
period.

Tim Halligan
April 25th, 2007, 11:32 AM
I give the same "treatment" to any project I agree to do.
period.

That's the definition of professionalism.

Cheers,
Tim

Cosmic Pig
April 25th, 2007, 11:34 AM
Yes I believe you do Weedywet, as do a lot of the guys here. I think most of the guys here are a few rungs up from the regular dross and part of how they got there was by giving 100% to all projects.

So the white noise Marshall run by the kid who refuses to give it up and it's his fuckin tune and his fuckin signature tone and he's the musician with all the talent and you're too old to understand his music... man. Fuckin knob twiddlin old bastard. And his girlfriends sings.

How do you give that 100%? Assuming you had to take the gig to pay the rent.

Do you suffer fools gladly and hit the record button? Try to educate them? Kick their asses out and fuck the rent?

Anyways... it's kind of a stupid question with obvious answers, but the point is, not everything gets 100% because it's not always possible.

I seem to have swung myself into a position I don't agree with in order to poke with a stick. So ignore me. BTW weedywet, none of this is directed at you. It's a half baked diatribe against a few idiots who barely tolerated my guitar flailings in order to pay the rent a few decades ago.

Cos.

ggunn
April 25th, 2007, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by weedywet:"I give the same 'treatment' to any project I agree to do. period."

That's the definition of professionalism.

Cheers,
Tim

Full circle.

Mixerpuppet
April 25th, 2007, 07:59 PM
Full circle.




Sorry... my bad. :Cry:



But at least we have a simplified definition now... :very happy:



So the lingering question is whether professionals cherry pick to avoid having to work with semi-pro musicians and stuff...

magicchord
April 25th, 2007, 09:13 PM
...the lingering question is whether professionals cherry pick to avoid having to work with semi-pro musicians and stuff...

Well, I'd say It Depends, right? :Roll eyes:

Mixerpuppet
April 25th, 2007, 09:24 PM
Well, I'd say It Depends, right? :Roll eyes:


Depends on what?


Or Depends on Who?


Here's a test:

Lets say your a freelance mixer and you get the opportunity to record and mix "Sanjaya's 12 song Demo" at your normal rate or
Elton John for 2 songs at 75% your rate...

What would a professional do?

or

WWWWD?

:Wink:

eagan
April 25th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Well, look, that's not the kind of world I live in, but it sure seems to me that given that scenario, it depends.

Different people are going to look at that choice and give varying weigh to different factors about those two choices, and it depends on them. There are a lot of things you could look at in that choice as proposed, and different people might value those things differently.

Are we going to entertain the idea that any people who fit the term "professional" all think the same? That sounds a tad silly.

Now, on the other hand, I could see there being some point to it if you said that "professionals" are going to look at more than just one simple question of "what would I like listening to the most?".


JLE

ggunn
April 26th, 2007, 12:02 AM
Depends on what?


Or Depends on Who?


Here's a test:

Lets say your a freelance mixer and you get the opportunity to record and mix "Sanjaya's 12 song Demo" at your normal rate or
Elton John for 2 songs at 75% your rate...

What would a professional do?

or

WWWWD?

:Wink:


That's easy if the professional is actually mixing for his livelihood - you do the Elton John gig because that's the opportunity that will potentially open more doors to service long term goals. Hell, in that position I'd probably do Elton for free... wait a minute I don't like the way that sounds... ;^)

Mixerman
April 26th, 2007, 05:02 AM
Can anybody here really say they treat the crappy teenage garage band with rich parents the same as hot players with connections? Most of us probably can't, but I suspect that has more to do with size of the dead blankie pile at the end of a session with kids for most of you guys here.I don't take a project if I don't A) like the music and B) think I can bring something very positive to the party. So, the premise is flawed.

Once I take on a project, I give it every ounce off my being to my own personal and, to some extent, physical detriment.

Mixerman

Mixerman
April 26th, 2007, 05:10 AM
Depends on what?


Or Depends on Who?


Here's a test:

Lets say your a freelance mixer and you get the opportunity to record and mix "Sanjaya's 12 song Demo" at your normal rate or
Elton John for 2 songs at 75% your rate...

What would a professional do?

or

WWWWD?

:Wink:

Is it the 1976 Elton John?

Mixerman

Mixerman
April 26th, 2007, 05:16 AM
What is it with you guys from the R|E|P?
Don't want people to know you're over here?
I took a shower this morning. And I used deodorant. And clipped my nose hairs.
Your name is in your Public profile.
You guys can only do Good over here (keep Mixerman humble).
It's not just you, there's others that lurk, you should all say hello.
What's the big deal?
Hmmmm?

#1 no one keeps me humble. #2 he's not hiding. People use handles here.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

Mixerman
April 26th, 2007, 05:28 AM
Sorry... my bad. :Cry:



But at least we have a simplified definition now... :very happy:



So the lingering question is whether professionals cherry pick to avoid having to work with semi-pro musicians and stuff...

Cherry pick? Well, I'm a freelance producer and mixer. This means that I have very little overhead, as I don't have a room. Which means that I can be slightly more selective than say, a studio owner who must book the room, and has the pressure of a high overhead. My feeling is you can't produce an album if you don't love the act and the music. So, in that capacity, you're not doing anyone any favors by taking on any project that comes your way.

As a Mixer, the bar isn't qute that high. I have to find something redeeming in the music and the productions to mix it. But it doesn't have to be my favorite record of all time. Regardless of my personal feelings for the music, my goal is to give the best mixes of my life. That's always the goal. If I hate the songs, that's not possible.

Either way, Mixer or producer, I'm selecting my gigs, right? but I can tell you, I'm not selecting them based on musicianship. And I don't give a rats as about pro or semi-pro. I don't even know what that really means where a band is concerned. Most of them aren't pros until AFTER I've worked with them. My goal is to help them become pros. So, the idea that I, Slippy, Kenny, Weedy, or any of the others around here would concern ourselves with the professional status of an artist or band makes no sense whatsoever.

Being selective isn't cherry picking.

Mixerman

dwoz
April 26th, 2007, 11:55 AM
Well...I was in a store the other day, and the background music was Cyndi Lauper's "all through the night" from like 25 years ago.

A certain poster here was doing "something" on that track, and after listening to it again, I have to say I don't care if that "something" was fetching coffee, whoever was involved in that track is someone I can enjoy disagreeing with, any day of the week. He's earned it.

dwoz

bunnerabb
April 26th, 2007, 02:16 PM
"Money Changes Everything" just floors me every time I hear it.

Just knocks me on my ass. The little hooter solo in the middle is perfect.. tuneful, a bit childlike and mawkish and doesn't get in the way.

And Cyndi.. Jeeeesus.

eagan
April 26th, 2007, 02:34 PM
Bubba was right.

Mystery seeds. Yup.


JLE

Mixerpuppet
April 26th, 2007, 04:23 PM
:Uh oh:

Im sure my devils advocate approach is the reason the eye rolling emoticon was invented. According to Industry Standardized Personality Tests, left handed people are generally obtuse in their approaches to communicating with right handed people. :very happy:

Truely I appreciate your efforts to bring your wisdom and experience to the table and discuss misconceptions and clear the air. Typically I carry more than one idea about any given subject even if there is no evidence because everything has at least two sides. Mainly some my ideas on the subject of pro verses semi-pro stems from a thread spawned from an interview in Tape-Op of a gentleman named Walter Sear. Of coarse the thread turned into a professional snobbery attack from the home recordist factions. Which seemed completely different from my experiences where I was nourished and mentored like a grandfather would his grandson. Right up until I got fired for an act of immaturity. :icon_eek: (the studio owner still sends me gear)

Also I was asking a question in general rather that proposing specifically the idea that You, Slippy or Weedy were cherry pickers.... Sorry it wasn't clear.


Anyhow you get :Thumbsup: :Thumbsup: :Thumbsup: for your repsonse being one that makes aspiring artists, aspiring producers and engineers start off on the right foot. (not that getting kudos from me matters) (better than cooties I suppose) :Twisted:

I don't give a rats as about pro or semi-pro.

Being selective isn't cherry picking.

Mixerman


The part I quoted above seems to me to be the root attitude that brings this thread full circle to how individuals/professionals approach methodologies and tools. The subtle nuance between a gear slut and and a gear snob maybe?...

A (gear) snobby person could create a double standard or seem hypocritical under particular circumstances.

I certainly know that for me being a design engineer by education and trade effects my approach to how I audio engineer.

Im sorry... am I inducing narcolepsy again?

magicchord
April 26th, 2007, 06:29 PM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZWHAT?!

weedywet
April 27th, 2007, 01:14 AM
So the lingering question is whether professionals cherry pick to avoid having to work with semi-pro musicians and stuff...

well, I 'cherry pick' but not on that basis.

I won't work on something I don't LIKE.
or with poeple I don't think I can add something to.

So I've turned down mixes of records I thought were so badly made that mixing was a waste of their money (even though it might be a LOT of money to me)
and I've only produced bands that I thought I had something to bring to.

but "semi-pro"... I don't know exactly what that MEANS.
I mean, why would a weekend warrior band even WANT to pay for a producer/engineer?

lots of people I've made records with, including hit records, weren't "professional" in some senses UNTIL they made the record and then became so.

I don't avoid "difficult" situations.
But I do avoid unrealistic expectations.
That would feel like taking money under false pretenses.

But if someone is clear about what's POSSIBLE, and I can relate musically, then I certainly work with LOTS of "semi-professionals"


********

interestingly, because I'm a lazy fuck, I hadn't read Mixerman's post before I wrote the above.. but now I have.
and isn't it interesting HOW similar his response is?

must mean something

weedywet
April 27th, 2007, 01:20 AM
"Money Changes Everything" just floors me every time I hear it.

Just knocks me on my ass. The little hooter solo in the middle is perfect.. tuneful, a bit childlike and mawkish and doesn't get in the way.

And Cyndi.. Jeeeesus.


I love that track.
(and I love PLAYING that song all the time as well...)

but it's such a brilliantly SIMPLE record.
1 guitar bass and drums, with a little synth acting like an organ and playing the intro figure.
and then the overdubbed melodica (which is still slightly out of tune even though i tried to harmonise it into tune with the track... no AutoTune)

I think it's 12 or 13 tracks used all in.

drums in that room always sounded incredible. I miss the place.
They just don't build rooms that LIVE.

not only did I not make the coffee, I didn't even make John Agnello (who assisted me) make the coffee.
we were too busy shooting blow darts at each other.

TSTW
April 27th, 2007, 02:36 AM
I don't avoid "difficult" situations.
But I do avoid unrealistic expectations.


Have you guys, half way through a project realised it is an unrealistic expectation?

weedywet
April 27th, 2007, 08:12 AM
well, what I meant was if a band says to me "we want to make a better record than our last one", or "we want to make the best record we can" or " we think we could use some arrangment help" or "we think our rough mixes aren't as exciting or dynamic as we'd like the mixes to be"...


those are the KINDS of things that make sense to me.
Then I listen, or see the band in rehearsal, and see if it is interesting.
I tell them what I think we could hope to do, and everyone has a realistic sense of the possibilities.

I know that when I hear a demo or roughs, or see a band, and I'm overflowing with IDEAS of what to do, that's a good sign.
Those are the projects I want.

What's NOT a good sign is when they hate their roughs but think a mix will "save" them. (usualy if the roughs are truly awful, it's safe to assume the recording is awful, not the mixing)
Or when they play fairly primitively but say they want to make a record like some band with thousand note a second whiz kids.
Or can't really sing but want to sound "like The Beatles"...

it's THOSE types of expectations that are UNrealistic.

But usually, if anything, I'm more often surprised by what they CAN rise to than disappointed.

Mixerpuppet
April 27th, 2007, 02:37 PM
must mean something



WEEDY IS MIXERMAN!






:icon_eek:



:Twisted:


:Wink:


:Razz:

Mixerman
April 27th, 2007, 04:18 PM
********

interestingly, because I'm a lazy fuck, I hadn't read Mixerman's post before I wrote the above.. but now I have.
and isn't it interesting HOW similar his response is?

must mean something

I noticed that. In fact, your response was so similar to mine, I knew there was no way you had actually read mine before you wrote that.

I think it does mean something.

Mixerman

magicchord
April 27th, 2007, 04:22 PM
WEEDY IS MIXERMAN!

:icon_eek:

:Twisted:

:Wink:

:Razz:

No, Weedy is too articulate and polite, and doesn't use the word "fuck" near enough. :Coolio:

bbkong
April 27th, 2007, 07:09 PM
I think it does mean something.



Like..yer both Rump Rangers?

Tim Armstrong
April 27th, 2007, 08:40 PM
Previously at the Marsh and now here we have a forum where engineers and musicians run free, untrammeled by the expectations or desires of the unwashed masses with their waxy ears. We have a groovy collaborative music thing going on too, on our terms. There is no need to follow the societal or industry expectation of edited perfection, and yet, apparently, we still do. There is the expectation that a final product will be delivered at par with industry releases in both performance and presentation (just like on any pro session) and the final responsibility to deliver falls on the engineer. Based on the huge spread of abilities involved there is seldom any choice, out comes the grid, Otto and BD.

Is this a double standard? Could we look in the mirror without makeup? Based on one of the local 'whipping boy' topics, it seems like we expect others to. Would it be that bad?

Not to derail the fascinating discussion of what makes someone SEMI-PRO, and whether PROS are jaded fucknuts coasting through life...

But I've participated in every CAPE except the first one (was on a team, had to drop out to deal with a parent's death), and so far none of my teams has done any gridding, Otto-tuning or Beat Detecting. I say this with some confidence, as I've heard everyone's raw tracks (and practiced my own mixing with them). If there was any nudging going on, it was so minor as to be indetectable...

And even if anyone actually did use the tools of the trade to make something already quite wonderful even better, I defy you to listen to the library of CAPE songs so far and tell me you hear "The Big Lie". I don't. I hear a bunch of passionate, talented folks having a hell of a lot of fun making great music and great recordings together.

Is it all live-in-the-studio one-take stuff? Does every track recorded end up in the final mix? Does the mixing engineer just put the faders to unity gain and print it?

Fuck no!

And how much fun would it be to mix if it was? I love playing, singing, writing songs, recording stuff, etc, but mixing is my absolutely favorite part because while it's great to have a recipe and a list of ingredients, it's fucking wonderful to COOK!

Cheers, Tim

Cosmic Pig
April 27th, 2007, 08:52 PM
so far none of my teams has done any gridding, Otto-tuning or Beat Detecting. I say this with some confidence, as I've heard everyone's raw tracks (and practiced my own mixing with them). If there was any nudging going on, it was so minor as to be indetectable...

Jeez that's great.

As I pointed out earlier, y'all are fags. Not like ghey, or geigh. I mean fruit hat toting limp wristed light in the loafers gay.

Not hot sweaty man sex gay, rather the utter absence of balls. Not whistle farting gay, more of a chuff and snuggle gay.

As I also pointed out earlier, I have no idea what we're on about. I just smoke joints and post shit.

Cos.

weedywet
April 27th, 2007, 09:16 PM
No, Weedy is too articulate and polite, and doesn't use the word "fuck" near enough. :Coolio:

fuck off

























predictable, but required.

weedywet
April 27th, 2007, 09:21 PM
And how much fun would it be to mix if it was? I love playing, singing, writing songs, recording stuff, etc, but mixing is my absolutely favorite part because while it's great to have a recipe and a list of ingredients, it's fucking wonderful to COOK!

Cheers, Tim


I don't really think the mixing IS the 'cooking' though.

I think it's more like plating.

mastering might be garnishing.

magicchord
April 27th, 2007, 09:21 PM
Jeez that's great.

As I pointed out earlier, y'all are fags. Not like ghey, or geigh. I mean fruit hat toting limp wristed light in the loafers gay.

Not hot sweaty man sex gay, rather the utter absence of balls. Not whistle farting gay, more of a chuff and snuggle gay.

As I also pointed out earlier, I have no idea what we're on about. I just smoke joints and post shit.

Cos.

It must get really stuffy in that closet, then :Razz:

eagan
April 27th, 2007, 10:23 PM
Not to derail the fascinating discussion of what makes someone SEMI-PRO, and whether PROS are jaded fucknuts coasting through life...




Huh? What is this, Tim, trying to get this thing actually back on the topic we started with?


Oh, you're no fun anymore.


JLE

Tim Armstrong
April 27th, 2007, 10:31 PM
I don't really think the mixing IS the 'cooking' though.

I think it's more like plating.

mastering might be garnishing.

I think mastering is probably more like setting the plate on the table with a certain flair, while discreetly dropping a napkin on someone's open fly. But I could be wrong!

Cheers, Tim

Spock
April 28th, 2007, 03:33 AM
fuck off

It's about time.....


Weedy is in the club now. :grin:

CaptainHook
May 3rd, 2007, 11:31 AM
Mixerman/Weedy/Anyone ~ do you have friends or peers whose
work you admire and respect, who work primarily in PT,
and use tools such as BT, Otto, etc?

Yes, i'm implying you dont like Kenny's work. :lol:

I'm still unsure if it's the general effect Alsihad has had
on music you despise, or the actual use of it at all.
I know Mixie said he used PT for cape, but there was the caveat
of it was "good enough". So for something that matters,
it isn't??

Genuinely curious.