remember Sellaband.com?

[Starfucker]

I heard a band on the radio yesterday who managed to find 5000 "believers" and got 50000$ to record and promote their album with an A&R and a producer and everything.

Seems like it's not a scam.

name of the band is Nemesea. 1 guy bought 504 parts at 10$ each.

I'm curious how it will work out...

[bunnerabb]

What I'm curious about is who will get paid when the record hits and fades.

I got a funny feeling it aint gonna be the band.

[dwoz]

some random thoughts:


first, from sellaband website:

The copyright for objects developed and published by SellaBand remains solely with SellaBand. Copying or using such pictures, sound documents, video sequences or texts in other electronic or printed publications is not allowed without SellaBand’s prior and explicit consent.



so when you decide to leave sellaband, with their "no strings attached" policy...you leave your sound recordings (masters) behind. Not sure how they pay artist royalties...no mention of that on the site. No doubt you have to AT LEAST split publishing, and no doubt you likely have to sign something "when you get to the studio"?

second, the $50k raised from "believers" goes to sellaband, not to the band.

I can't find anywhere what happens if a whole bunch of "believers" (e.g. customers) manage to raise $60k...I think that your studio sessions just become $10,000 more expensive?

I'm willing to bet that things like a per diem and travel expenses for the band are not included in that $50k.

The only money that actually goes to the band is a proportional split of the page hit advertising on future download views of their MP3s. Of course, the "believers" that paid $10 bucks for a "share" have received a 'complementary' cd, so I have a hard time believing that the believers will spend much time at YOUR download page.

So, realistically, unless the site takes off like myspace as a music download center, it is simply a vanity press, with no back end. And there's no front end. And you don't own your masters (just like a new-band-signing for a major).





Its most decidedly not a scam...




...it just presents a bit of a "questionable value proposition" for the musician. The consumer (a.k.a. "believer") pays ten bucks and gets a CD. Good enough. IF the band tops the threshold number of TRUE believers!

Its a good value proposition for sellaband...they get $50k for arranging some (no doubt competent) studio and in-house kickback-enabled producer to work for 2 weeks on a 5 song demo, and that pays the rent. Pressing 5000 cds costs what, about $1000, if its part of a large bundled bulk run, maybe with a couple hundred extra for each glass master? more or less? The postage is probably more expensive than the manufacturing, per unit.

And, what happens to the money that "believers" send in, when a band never makes the threshold? That's good cash flow probably. Revenue against a potential future liability (the recording session that may never happen), but that's a pretty good bet.

Bottom line? If the site hits some kind of critical mass, it would be an interesting proposition. Until then, its basically a vanity press, that the artist doesn't have to pay for out of pocket, but neither will they make any money. If the value added by the sellaband-assigned producer is there, and he/she helps a band "find its voice and focus" in their recording, then that's a potential plus...

all these things are nice, and an enterprising band can probably put all this together themselves, publish on iTunes and CDBaby, AND own their masters.

If the site somehow was getting 50k hits daily from "believers", it would be a good thing to get involved in, if you had no idea how to put a CD's worth of material together yourself.

dwoz

[lebouche]

second, the $50k raised from "believers" goes to sellaband, not to the band.

I can't find anywhere what happens if a whole bunch of "believers" (e.g. customers) manage to raise $60k...I think that your studio sessions just become $10,000 more expensive?


I've defended sellaband in other forums...only because one of the guys involved I know to be a standup, pro empowering the musician guy.
I imagine that once you hit 50k no more beliver dollars are accepted.
I know this is an old post but I think this site could be really important.

[knightsy]

It seems the site's doing a bit more business lately, quite a few aussies doing well there too!

Maybe it's time to ease up on the cynicysm?

[Bob Olhsson]

What cynicism? dwoz hit the nail squarely on the head!

[knightsy]

Maybe he did, apart from this bit...


And, what happens to the money that "believers" send in, when a band never makes the threshold? That's good cash flow probably. Revenue against a potential future liability (the recording session that may never happen), but that's a pretty good bet.


They say on the site that you can retract your donation at any time until the band hits the threshold. I might try it, just to see if it's true, but that seems fairly open to me. Once a fan puts in some money, it isn't necessarily gone forever.

[Bob Olhsson]

Any band that can attract 5000 "believers" deserves way more than 1/3 of the net revenue.

The "believers" and the band ought to own the masters and whatever entity put them together doesn't deserve more than a 10% finder's fee.

IMNSHO this is worse than the typical major label "deal."

[knightsy]

It says in the FAQ that the artist gets the "master of the recording" 12 months after the recording is finished. It also says that the artist gets 60% of the publishing - what am I missing here?

[Bob Olhsson]

Giving them 40% of all music publishing in addition to a 10% administration fee with no advance to the writers is a rip-off.


here's the "deal"

http://www.sellaband.com/site/conditions_artist.html

And here's the fine print:
http://www.sellaband.com/static/pdf/artist_publishing_agreement_english.pdf

http://www.sellaband.com/static/pdf/artist_title_agreement_english.pdf

[bunnerabb]

See, I always thought the model was Find talented artist, take crack engineers, producers, facilities, capture the magic of that artist on a recording, offer it up to radio and the press for review and if it finds purchase with the listening and recording aficionados who support music and the musical arts, you have a hit record and the artist has a foot in the door for himself and his label to bring the balance of his catalogue to the public, thereby contributing to the ever evolving content of this wonderful and glorious musical form.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now, that being said, that's what most other people think, too.

That's not the model.

The model that is in effect stinks and is failing.

And this sellaband horse crap is a pale simulacrum of that model.

A garage sale version.

All that being said, is it so bloody, fucking, damnably ignorant and ridiculously hopeless to want create something that IS based on that model?

I have no idea, but I think we should.

[knightsy]

Bob, you'll have to forgive me, I'm not a lawyer!

How did you arrive at 40% of publishing?

[kwiksilver]

Here are some extracts from the down loadable PDF's on Sellabands website. (Their spelling errors are intact.)

Extracted from the Artist Publishing Agreement

7. Remuneration

Slippery writing in the following paragraph: What do they mean by "receives minus 10%....."? 100% Net Revenue breaks down as 60% to the artist, 30% to Sellaband, 10% to the producer. So where does the 10% administration fee and the V.A.T. get deducted from? I'm willing to bet it's not out of Sellaband's share.

7.1
The Artist is entitled to a writers share of 60% (sixty percent) of all nett revenues as mentioned in paragraph 5.2 collected and received by SellaBand. SellaBand is entitled to 30% (thirty percent) of the nett revenues. The remaining 10% (ten percent) shall be paid to the sound producer of the CD. SellaBand shall remit all such sums directly to the Artist without deduction. Aforesaid nett revenues has to be considered as al income SellaBand actually receives minus 10% (ten percent) administration fee and V.AT. and (withholding) taxes, if aplicable.


7.2
No other payments are due to the Artist beyond those provided for in this Agreement in regard to the assignment of rights relating to the Works and licences for the use of the name, Artist name, logo and representations of the Artist as set out in this Agreement.

7.3
All payments will be made in $ USD. Remunerations to be paid by SellaBand to the Artist on the basis of this paragraph, will be paid once a calendar year, together with a specification of the amounts.

Wow! Once a year! Hell of way to make a living.

Extracted from the Artist Title Agreement

6. Assignment of rights by the Artist

6.7
With reference to paragraph 4.1 the Artist is not entitled to transfer to a third party any of his/her rights and/or obligations ensuing from this Agreement, neither in whole nor in part, without the written permission of SellaBand.

7. Exploitation rights of SellaBand

7.4
SellaBand is entitled to transfer and/or to license its rights and obligations ensuing from this Agreement, in whole or in part, to any third parties on exclusive or non-exclusive terms. The Artist hereby grants his/her consent thereto in advance.

Double Standard. They can say No if they wish. The artist has to say Yes from the start.

Best of luck to those artists who have signed on. They're going to need it.

[Bob Olhsson]

They're taking 10% of gross plus 30% of net. Producer gets 10% of net, artist gets 60% of net.

Say they make $100. Company takes $10 off the top. That leaves $90 net. Artist gets $54, producer gets $9 and they get $27+ the 10 or $37. This might not be so bad except that they get to define what is an expense and all of the taxes are also coming out before net is determined. Another sleazy part of this is that it looks like they can make a subpublishing deal with themselves and they can also cover the tune with another artist and completely own that version forever. I also see no mention of paying back recording expenses.

I'm not a lawyer but there appear to be many cans of worms here.

[knightsy]

Have you gents had a look at the contracts at slicethepie.com? How do they measure up?

http://www.slicethepie.com/About/Legal.aspx

[radiationroom]

After reading this thread, I think it's time to update my article "Song Sharks & Music Pirates" to include internet marketing scams - http://www.radiationroom.com/rrs/sharkpir.htm Evil!

Goddamned I HATE the BUSINESS end of the music biz. Except that if the typical musician would wise up all the rip-offs ranging the whole way from the major labels to the bottom feeders would become a rarity. The main reason why aspiring musicians get ripped off is because they are so hungry for fame they get suckered into signing stupid contracts.

I'm sorry, but I have zero sympothy for Roger McGuinn, Chuck D, and Amii Mann when they go crybaby about getting screwed by their record companies. I walked away from two bad management contracts and one employment situation with a dreadful no-compete clause. If I had signed any of them I would either be a pauper or someone's slave-labor right now. Musicians have GOT to start educating themselves!

[Bob Olhsson]

What I hate most are the folks who dwell on the abuses of the major labels while they pick the artists' pockets. "I'll protect you from getting ripped off" has been the mantra of the biggest music biz crooks.

[McAllister]

I just heard about SellaBand.
Did my research (including finding this and other threads).

What is particularly galling to me: I raise $50k because 5k people dig my songs. Great. But I never see that money - SellaBand gets to pick my studio & production team. WTF is that? Think they might have their own studio? Or places they have "agreements" with (read: kickbacks). Plus, what if I don't like the producer? What if he's not a pro, or stupid, or doesn't know dick about music?

Strange.

If my songs garner 5,000 people who want to buy, I damned sure want a say in how the album gets completed.

Ad I'd want to own vinyl rights, too; but that's just me.

M