Amps in combinations

[slabrock]

I'm not sure if this is something that's been discussed to death before, i hope that's not the case.

I am a big fan of tracking several amps at a time. Happy as a household animal rolling in its own excrement, i can sit in the control room and dial the guitar tone with "little more AC30, please, and less brightness on the Bassman ...oh, and switch the Boss Distortion box from the Jazz Chorus to the JCM800, please".
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I especially like combining the sound of a single track from several sources as i track. I feel it makes the track less vulnerable in the mixing process, and i feel good to know that nobody can point a finger and say: "I know that's a Triple Recto, it sounds just like so-and-so..."

In the colour theory they say that any 2 colours can be made to match with adding the right third. I guess this goes with the amps, too, since with all the bad and inferior amps in the market i've never found one that didn't do something, when paired with two great amps.

Of course everybody knows the "classics" like driving a clean Jazz Chorus with a distorted Marshall, or driving a dry Marshall with a reverb-heavy Fender. What's your favourite? Do you use this technique, and why or why not? What are your experiences on this?

Discussion?

Peace,

Slabrock

[meLoCo_go]

Do you mean simultaniously running guitar to two amps?
Always wanted to do that, but never happened to me.
If so, what's your favorite splitter box? Or waht do you use to split signal?

[slabrock]

Do you mean simultaniously running guitar to two amps?
Always wanted to do that, but never happened to me.
If so, what's your favorite splitter box? Or waht do you use to split signal?

Yes, simultaneously running guitar to ...um... 2 to 25 different amps, yes. :icon_eek: This is actually easier than people think.

If the input impedances match, like they usually do in old Fenders, Marshalls, Voxes, Hiwatts and such, i can just use a buffer amp (little boxes that run with a battery, or in lack of a proper buffer any Boss pedal - on or off - will do since they're all buffered) and make a simple split after that. The "spare" jacks in old Fenders and Marshalls are just for this purpose.

If the impedances don't match, you'll notice a gain loss in the sound. Then the simplest way is to use a stereo delay pedal, or any stereo pedal to make that specific split. I prefer the delay, since i can slow down the other signal some milliseconds for thicker sound, if i want to (12ms or more if i want to sound like Bob Mould). I got several Digitech 20/20 delay pedals which i love, but any digital delay will do.

I've also had several 1:1 transformers made, to cut the galvanic contact if i ever need to. But since i'm always very careful in grounding everything properly and check out all the lines are of equal length, i haven't had to use them this far. I power all the amps from the same grounded powerstrip and same phase.

Remember that all the amplifying stages invert the phase, so if you add extra pedals in front of the amps, or if some amps have more amplifying stages than others, you've got to correct the phase in the desk.

It's great to have a room full of blasting amps, a 57 in front of each and maybe an ambience mic for all the wall. Me likes
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Peace,

Slabrock

[maxpidge]

and yet still nothing beats my 68 plexi:grin:

[Tim Armstrong]

I have a few really nice amps, and I like their tonal voices so I haven't tried the multiple amp trick. While it obviously works great sometimes, I'd be leery of the mud accumulation factor. Kinda like when you combine a few different colors of paint, and end up with baby shit brown...

:icon_eek:

Cheers, Tim

[slabrock]

and yet still nothing beats my 68 plexi:grin:

I've got a '67 plexi 50 and a '69 Superlead
:lol: :D :lol:

I have a few really nice amps, and I like their tonal voices so I haven't tried the multiple amp trick. While it obviously works great sometimes, I'd be leery of the mud accumulation factor. Kinda like when you combine a few different colors of paint, and end up with baby shit brown...

Yeah, i know what you mean, but that haven't really been a problem yet, ever. :Roll eyes: The sound thickens, but doesn't get muddy unless there's a lot of different distortions involved (generally not good), and i've got a trick for that, too :Wink:

Besides, i place all the mics with amps humming, listening to that hum in headphones, and have the assistant flip phase every now and then, so it's relatively easy to find the sweet spots where the amps are most likely to work together.

And now the trick of using multiple distortions at a same time: I kept thinking about hex fuzzes and other hex distortions, but i never liked the sound of any hex mic i tried, so i figured an other way to divide the signal. I converted a 4-way crossover i lifted from a PA set for unbalanced jacks. I can have the basses straight, have a fuzz on low middle, a distortion on high middle and some compression on treble. Plus each signal can be routed to a different amp.

Tracking guitars can be so much fun.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Peace,

Slabrock

[Jason Phair]

And now the trick of using multiple distortions at a same time: I kept thinking about hex fuzzes and other hex distortions, but i never liked the sound of any hex mic i tried, so i figured an other way to divide the signal. I converted a 4-way crossover i lifted from a PA set for unbalanced jacks. I can have the basses straight, have a fuzz on low middle, a distortion on high middle and some compression on treble. Plus each signal can be routed to a different amp.

Tracking guitars can be so much fun.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Peace,

Slabrock



Ah, the Monty Colvin.

[slabrock]

Ah, the Monty Colvin.

Never heard of the person, but seems i have to find out and get better acquainted.

No, i think i lifted the crossover idea from Neil Young.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Peace,

Slabrock

[nobby]

Great subject, Slab.

I think this all started when Keith Richard had his Twin Reverb (first one made) teamed up with a Champ. Twin for definition, Champ for distortion. Not sure whose idea it was.

I'd thought of doing this sort of thing but ended up tracking separately with different guitars and amps. That's quite time consuming, especially when the tracks are fairly complex, not on sheet music, and you wind up with something a bit different on the different tracks :Roll eyes:

OTOH, one could probably spend a lifetime experimenting with 2 or more amps used simultaneously.

One thing I thought of was to mic the Deluxe reverb with another amp, panning the other amp towards one side and the Deluxe toward the other, using the Deluxe (with its spring reverb) sort of as the reverb. Not sure how well this would work, but it might be fun to try it.

[slabrock]

One thing I thought of was to mic the Deluxe reverb with another amp, panning the other amp towards one side and the Deluxe toward the other, using the Deluxe (with its spring reverb) sort of as the reverb. Not sure how well this would work, but it might be fun to try it.

I'd say it'll work fine. I do that all the time for the rhythm guitars and sometimes for the lead, and then during the mix i balance them new for each new part.

Last february i worked producing a punk band that had the usual run-of-the-mill punk guitar sound, the Triple Rectifier adjusted like a JCM800 -thing, so i let the guitar player adjust his amp to his liking and play in front of it, but took a splitter to several other amps in the other room. He was understandably surprised when listening to the mix that his battered tele+mesa setup could sound so rich.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I suggest you do the split before any stomp boxes you're going to use.

But setting up the various amps in their own tracks is usual stuff. There's something more to be gained when you treat them all as one amp and do just one track of them. That track will have a wave unlike anything else.

Peace,

Slabrock

[otek]

I love combining different sounds like this.

And it need not be muddy at all. Stevie Ray Vaughan relied on the combination of multiple amps for years.

An engineer who has done a lot of work with this technique is Dave Jerden. Listen to Alice In Chain's "Dirt" - some pretty mighty guitar sounds on that one. Dave often splits the amps into separate frequency ranges, too, using one amp for the bottom and, one for the mid and one for the high end.


otek

[Barska]

An engineer who has done a lot of work with this technique is Dave Jerden. Listen to Alice In Chain's "Dirt" - some pretty mighty guitar sounds on that one. Dave often splits the amps into separate frequency ranges, too, using one amp for the bottom and, one for the mid and one for the high end.


otek
Do you know did he do this on "Dirt"? I'm a big fan of guitar sound on that particular piece of rock.

And on the subject: I've never really done multi-amping but I suppose there's not much difference to re-amping? I'm such sound polisher that would take ages for me to get all those sounds at the same time...

[Swafford]

I always run stereo amps live out of a stereo chorus, that is the total shit, specially for a three piece. In my little room here, I've been playing with the two amp thing using some of the older amps I have: my best pair seems to be a '61 Ampeg Reverorocket and a '58 Fender Deluxe, but I just picked up this '59 Maganatone 210 (little 5 watt w/ tube vibrato) that just sounds amazing and I'm itching to try instead of the Ampeg. I run them out of a tape delay, stereo or mono.

As you all know, make sure your speakers are wired the same.......or maybe that doesn't matter if your recording?

[slabrock]

I've never really done multi-amping but I suppose there's not much difference to re-amping? I'm such sound polisher that would take ages for me to get all those sounds at the same time...

No, no, there's a world of difference.

Re-amping is electrifying a pre-recorded "dead" signal via an amp. There's no feedback and often very complicated impedance problems eat some of the sound away.

Multi-amping is dynamic, happens in real time, and everything affects everything.

Also, IMHO polishing an multi-amped sound is easier, because the wave is different and allows much more tweaking.

If you have tried to hone a guitar played through a single tube amp to perfection with a parametric EQ, you may have noticed that the signal is so peaky, only very generic tweaking is possible without ruining the harmonic content. Now, if the signal is combined out of several tube amps, it's rather thick than peaky (without being muddy) and allows much more narrow Q in equalizing. And there is a difference between Q5 and Q25, they're different tools
:lol: :lol: :lol:

EDIT:

As you all know, make sure your speakers are wired the same.......or maybe that doesn't matter if your recording?

Yes it does.

A mono sound in oposite phases is the difference. Not much left here.

A stereo sound in opposite phases makes the guitar go diagonal instead of stereo.

Guitar going from left back to right front may sound like a good effect in theory, and in an album couple of years ago i even tried it for one song as an effect that'd lead us to chorus, but i had to take it away because it was mostly nauseating.

"Ok, here's the chorus part, let's throw up in unison!"
:Uh oh: :Uh oh: :Uh oh:

Peace,

Slabrock

[Barska]

No, no, there's a world of difference.

Re-amping is electrifying a pre-recorded "dead" signal via an amp. There's no feedback and often very complicated impedance problems eat some of the sound away.


Well this is all true. But once you're in the mood it's not that complicated anymore :Wink: You know... I usually start re-amping because i thought there was something wrong with the original sound and end-up with too great sounds :icon_eek:


Multi-amping is dynamic, happens in real time, and everything affects everything.

Also, IMHO polishing an multi-amped sound is easier, because the wave is different and allows much more tweaking.

If you have tried to hone a guitar played through a single tube amp to perfection with a parametric EQ, you may have noticed that the signal is so peaky, only very generic tweaking is possible without ruining the harmonic content. Now, if the signal is combined out of several tube amps, it's rather thick than peaky (without being muddy) and allows much more narrow Q in equalizing. And there is a difference between Q5 and Q25, they're different tools
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Peace,

Slabrock

You know what slab. Put it that way and I promise to try this one out in my next session, as it's gonna be pretty long and... I have a budget of some sort:icon_eek:

But you better not waste my timeEvil! :D :D :D ;)

[slabrock]

But you better not waste my timeEvil! :D :D :D ;)

This is not theory, this is something i do and have done quite often.

If you have a considerable budget you can hire me to do that.
:lol: I may be in the neighborhood anyway. I've got at least one album to mix this summer (though they're postponing the sessions, should have started a week ago originally), and one to produce from the beginning to end, and both take at least partly place in Helsinki.

Peace,

Slabrock

[Barska]

This is not theory, this is something i do and have done quite often.

If you have a considerable budget you can hire me to do that.
:lol: I may be in the neighborhood anyway. I've got at least one album to mix this summer (though they're postponing the sessions, should have started a week ago originally), and one to produce from the beginning to end, and both take at least partly place in Helsinki.

Peace,

Slabrock

Well I'm starting one movie project at the end of this month so I'll have to postpone the record sessions till the end august. But if you're in town feel wellcome. It's full length and label-funded so we'll be recording in one of the helsinki majors. Free munchies for Slab:lol:

Getting OT here are we.... ;)

[slabrock]

Well I'm starting one movie at the end of this month so I'll have to postpone the record sessions till the end august. But if you're in town feel wellcome. It's full length and label-funded so we'll be recording in one of the helsinki majors. Free munchies for Slab:lol:

Getting OT here are we.... ;)

OK. I'll be in southern Finland at least from August 16th so i'll definately come around. I'm a sucker for that free coffee.

PM me if there's anything soundwise you'd want to borrow or rent. Pretty much all kinds of guitar sounds (whatever they take) are available by asking.

Peace,

Slabrock

[Barska]

OK. I'll be in southern Finland at least from August 16th so i'll definately come around. I'm a sucker for that free coffee.

I knew it... I just freakin knew it :lol:


PM me if there's anything soundwise you'd want to borrow or rent. Pretty much all kinds of guitar sounds (whatever they take) are available by asking.



Thanks for the offer mate, I'll keep that in mind. I already demo'd all the material once and the band went back to "Phase: rehearse" but we'll be doing quick demo-session soon in which I'll check all the sound issues thoroughly. I'll be back:Coolio:

(that smilie is wrong. It shouldn't smile. How lame.:Confused: )

[vanityaffair]

maybe we should make an effort to put together a list of amp combinations that we swear by to give some of the others a starting point of sorts to get where they want to go?

i'll swear all day by a bogner uberschall mixed with an SLO 100 and a fender bassman for some punch. please note this is primarily for heavy music or punk rock, or anything that needs a good dollop of gain

[i, just i]

(first post on this board...)

for me as an alt-rock/alt country/power pop sort of person like the combination of 2 unnatrually combined amps - an ac-30 & a jazz chorus. this is just what has been used on every crowded house record & gives a nice mix of directness & sheen. Of course i will combine that with a tele or a gretsh type guitar (i actually like my koll guitar). i sometimes have double tracked that with a Matchless Clubman or done a baritone track under it with matchless.

For really over the top stuff, I do an old-ish marshall (mine is a 2x12 jmp combo with celestions) along with a tweaked pod setting that matches a bogner ecstacy i used to own - the closest is the pod aggro with a line6 4x10 (4x12 introduces some wierd bottom end overtones - the 4x10 provides a lod more cut) with their off axis sm57 micing - which is what i would. thats for humbucker guitars like a les paul - it creates a single track wall of death.

/i

[Slipperman]

....it creates a single track wall of death.

/i

LMFBO.

Yes indeedy.

Welcome to de for-ump where such subtle and understated claims are accorded a cursory nod.

HOHOHO.

SM.

[Brendo]

i'll swear all day by a bogner uberschallHmm... Billy Corgan's started using these with his Diezel Herberts...

What kind of sound comes out of the Uberschall?

[CaptainHook]

SM.

Who's this guy?

Excuse me, are you in the right place??

[meLoCo_go]

What kind of sound comes out of the Uberschall?

Ummm...
It's like a dzzzhhhhzhhhhzhzhzhzhchugggchhuuuuggggweeeeeeeiioo oouuuuuaaaaadzhdzhzdzhzhzhzzh
ummm... yeah...
a bit like that

[slabrock]

Ummm...
It's like a dzzzhhhhzhhhhzhzhzhzhchugggchhuuuuggggweeeeeeeiioo oouuuuuaaaaadzhdzhzdzhzhzhzzh
ummm... yeah...
a bit like that

You should try plugging the guitar in, too
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Uberschall, as you can figure out by it's name, is supposed to be a Marshall on hormones and a weight-lifter diet. Definately related with JCM800 and JCM900 it goes to eleven if needed, which can be good or bad, since overdrive doesn't equal power.

Peace,

Slabrock

[meLoCo_go]

You should try plugging the guitar in, too
:lol: :lol: :lol:


FUCK! I knew that something was wrong!

[slabrock]

FUCK! I knew that something was wrong!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Notice that Vanityaffair uses a Fender Bassman for punch alongside the Übersturmbahnführer :lol:

Barska, if you read this, sorry but i have a change of schedule. I'll be in Munich (München) approximately from August 16th to September 1st to stuff myself with good bier and some of the best Turkish food available outside the dark side alleys of Turkey. And i call that a gig, expenses paid.

Peace,

Slabrock

[moaus]

did this just recently for our album

i used a marshall 2203 and an orange

the orange was switched to class A - 30 watts - and was run flat out - master volume cranked

same with the marshall - with a smigen of pre's in there

and used the marshall for bite and cut and the orange to round things out when needed...

pretty much left the amps as they were and let the different guitars i used effect the different tonalities...

i am a total convert to this style - multi amps