bands don't know anything about business

[pounce]

a thread in the live forum got me thinking - bands/musicians are terrible at business. (in general) especially at local level.

sure, the business is weird and full of very confusing twists. there are unscrupulous club owners, labels, and the like that make doing business in this business akin to running through a mine field.

that said, bands seem to have a real bad business sense. little knowledge about money, standard business protocol, laws, contracts, punctuality, copyright, and all of that. bands present themselves poorly, and often don't make the effort to learn more about the business (ala good books like donald passman's "everything you need to know about the music business").

i'm thinking back to my short stint in a pro audio retail specialty shop years ago. musicians were the absolute worst to deal with, and their applications were a little embarassing. one turned in a hand written "resume" on crumpled up paper. really. wow. not a clue.

i think there could be a larger and more important thread to arise from this thought. how can bands be smarter. one eventual goal of this site is to provide the ability and opportunity for bands to network and book gigs and educate and promote themselves. an important part of the process will be the education.

what i expect is that with whatever new model arises for music and bands via the internet, more people will try to do it by themselves. self promote, self produce, or just generally make it without a big label. that reality may come to pass, that the net really provides enough opportunity that you don't need the money of the big labels to get product out there successfully. however, if bands are going to take more responsibility for the creation and promotion of their own music it becomes even MORE of their responsibility to understand the business at hand.

so that's the first thought i have on the matter so far. any comments?

[CurtZHP]

Not to inject politics into this, but do you think some of it might stem from a general disdain for capitalism that some artists seem to harbour?

You know, the whole "starving artist" vibe.....

[pounce]

well, if they are trying to not make money they are doing GREAT!

[Senap]

Not to inject politics into this, but do you think some of it might stem from a general disdain for capitalism that some artists seem to harbour?

You know, the whole "starving artist" vibe.....

Oh, the poor singer/songwriter with acoustic "no pickup" guitar and second hand clothes who only eats fallen fruit.

I've met a couple of those. They're surprisingly more "capitalistic" behind the scenes when it comes to money and getting paid.

NTTAWWT.

[Bob Olhsson]

Addressing this issue is why I'm here!

I'm still amazed both by how much I learned in the back room at Motown and by how little things have really changed since then.

If you understand the lingo and the basic principle that what you are selling is the experience of your music to your fans and access to your fans to the labels and promoters, it all becomes pretty logical. It also becomes pretty easy to see through the hustles.

Live entertainment is a cash business so it really appeals to hustlers. Too many artists can't tell what is and what isn't a hustle. This results in both rip-offs and many lost opportunities.

[pounce]

maybe i should have intially posted it in your forum!

now i think we need a primer on how bands can educate and prepare themselves to be a business in the internet age.

[Bob Olhsson]

"Knowledge Is Power" is a pretty good beginning. I made it up for a RAP conference in Oakland that I helped put on several years ago. The music biz co-sponsors were not exactly thrilled so I just printed them and handed them out myself.

http://womb.mixerman.net/showthread.php?t=183

The internet age changes remarkably little other than who the hustlers are and the nature of their rap making excuses about why they shouldn't pay to exploit others' music.

[jerryskid]

I think it's a "left-brain"/"right- brain" thing....Most musicians are better in arts and literature, than in Math and Science.....

[dikledoux]

With little experience around bands and the record business, I only know about the business issues with live performances. I don't think that bands neglect business due to some principled stance against capitalism. I think it's laziness, ignorance and maybe simple idiocy that drives them. I can't understand how people in bands can be so blind to the ways they torpedo themselves and allow clubs to take advantage of them. I saw my friends in the band I recently left playing out and they were doing all the things that bugged me when I was in:

Too many bands on the lineup
No one managing who plays when and for how long
Horrible venue (just a complete dump)
Horrible sound system
Outta tune guitars
Half-assed effort at performance
No promotion whatsoever
No attention to how the door money is taken/dealt with

In the meantime, no thought is ever given to how much money goes through the bar and what part of that is directly because of the band(s) that play the event. It's so easy to extrapolate from how much money is spent by each person in the audience, quick headcounts of the crowd, cover charge, etc. I've seen bands falling over each other to play for FREE on the bill of an event promoted by a large club and the local radio station. There was even a requirement that each band put up 25 CDs to give away at the door! A quick check around the club and some simple estimates... the club prolly grossed $10k - $15k minimum that night and the bands got absolutely nothing. Yet they were all talking about what a success it was.

Amazing.

If you don't value your work, no one else will either.

dik

[Comte de St Germain]

The business is changing.

I heard this for the first time from an A&R dude last week:

"We don't look at anyone unless they have over 100,000 Myspace hits."

[graveleye]

"We don't look at anyone unless they have over 100,000 Myspace hits."

...i just threw up a little in my mouth..

[dwoz]

Not to inject politics into this, but do you think some of it might stem from a general disdain for capitalism that some artists seem to harbour?

You know, the whole "starving artist" vibe.....

I'm going more with general disdain for ESTABLISHMENT. Doesn't really mean anything like the same thing.

"capitalism" is really the entirely wrong dog, in my not-so-humble opinion.

dwoz

[rockdart]

I'd say too, that nowadays, the musicians are holding down a full time job and just don't have any time to get as deeply entrenched into the business aspect of it as needed.

I know I'm guilty of that.

Then there's the fact that the other guys just don't have that savvy and their ego's get in the way of letting someone teach it to them.

[Moonrider]

Our terms are simple:
1st time: a) $400 flat fee to the band for local gigs (Richmond - Petersburg metro area), OR b) we charge the bar nothing and collect a $5 cover per head, all of which goes to the band, collected by someone the band supplies.

Return booking: a) $500 plus 2.5% of gross receipts for the night, OR b) $700 flat fee.

The venue picks the payment option, we provide the contract for them to sign.

[eagan]

...i just threw up a little in my mouth..

Is that all? I've got a desktop to hose down now.


JLE

[chrisj]

The trouble is, if bands put in the effort to become seriously good at business all by themselves they might as well open a grocery store. The point of a ''music business" is to be able to delegate that so the bands can be bands. If it's all gone south so bad that there's no alternative, what that means is "we need better mooks", not that bands are obligated to develop their marketing- or accounting- or recording skills.

We need better mooks and gearheads, not more self-sufficient bands. The really good bands and performers of bygone days (hell, I'm even thinking of Nirvana here) rehearsed _performing_ all day, not accounting.

[Tim Armstrong]

We need better mooks and gearheads, not more self-sufficient bands. The really good bands and performers of bygone days (hell, I'm even thinking of Nirvana here) rehearsed _performing_ all day, not accounting.

And with very few exceptions, they got hosed. Lost their songwriting royalties, didn't get paid other royalties, made millions for others and ended up penniless themselves...

Knowlege is power, knowing about how the business works means you can make it work for you, instead of ON you!

Cheers, Tim

[chrisj]

So they needed tame mooks to fight the other mooks with. Doesn't change my point. I did say we need BETTER mooks :D

[Bob Olhsson]

...I heard this for the first time from an A&R dude last week:

"We don't look at anyone unless they have over 100,000 Myspace hits."ONLY because they're grasping at straws...

[mykllynyrd]

I did say we need BETTER mooks :D


Is that even possible? Seems like the mooks are the ones making the money, what is going to make them want to be "better"?

[pounce]

i don't agree that different mooks are the answer. you may get new mooks, but i doubt in the end you'll be ones with particularly different agendas.

that said, i don't think that idea reflects where the industry is going. i specifically think that the way the internet is heading, there will be ways that more indie labels that are basically internet based will exist, or bands that do things entirely on thier own. via digital distribution, i suspect we simply will have more bands that try to do things on their own. the good news is that these might be bands that wouldn't have gotten a major label contract and are finding some way to get their music heard and empower themselves. the other side of the coin is that tackling this means someone with business smarts needs to be in the picture. for me, the idea that i'd have to trust someone else instead of educating myself isn't a good fit.

the funny thing is that by definition, i have no idea what else there is i dont' know about this business. what i do know is a lot more than i knew when i first had a band that was gigging. so hindsight is 20/20. i wish i knew then what i know now. i could have made things a lot simpler for myself. but of course now more than a decade later after being in this business full time i've had the opportunity to learn a lot, and i'm not sure i could have picked all this info up just from a book. some i had to learn from experience. good and bad experience.

even thinking back to bands i worked with who had "managers" of some sorts, most of them were worthless. so even bringing some outside help into the band is only as good as the person you get. so it's always ymmv. so while these managers were at least a single point of contact for these bands, they didn't have enough business knowledge or sophistication to do much more than be a good secretary and single contact for the band.

i don't think it's too much to expect bands who want to do it all themselves to read a little, or get help. they should be thrilled that there is a likelyhood that they can use the internet as an avenue or promotion and distribution that cuts out mooks and labels entirely. you might earn more money that way than with a major label contract. but to do it you need someone who is willing to be business smart. if you want to succeed in the music business, someone in the fold needs to know as much about business as the band does about music. music business.

or you can not make money. or just trust the mooks. good luck in those cases. but there is something cool and liberating about being independent and doing it yourselves. and being a little smart about money and business is important in life, not just particularly in this industry.

[Bob Olhsson]

...We need better mooks and gearheads, not more self-sufficient bands...I couldn't disagree more. The artist is always the boss and must direct the mooks because they generally know absolutely nothing about the artist's fans. An artist needs to become somewhat successful in order to be able to afford to delegate business tasks. Business is really just managing the relationships that the artist has created.

The way you get a loan to open a restaurant isn't by cooking your banker the best burger she ever ate. It's done by showing people lined up around the block wanting to buy the burgers.

[Comte de St Germain]

ONLY because they're grasping at straws...

As much as this pains me to say this, and yes, it does: Not entirely.

The bands who are getting the MS hits are self-promoting.

That's part of that whole "lack business sense" deal, some of them are nailing it out there.

Labels are crumbling, I'm thankful for much of the destruction because it allows for new and exciting landscapes to be rebuilt without the foundations of yesterday to interfere in the movement.

[Buzzgrowl]

I'd say too, that nowadays, the musicians are holding down a full time job and just don't have any time to get as deeply entrenched into the business aspect of it as needed...

If you want to make a living out of music the minimum requirement would be to consult the book "This Business of Music" by Krasilovsky and Shemel (both worked as legal counsels for Warner and Universal). So many of the issues discussed here and in Bob Olhsson's Corner are covered at length and with great competence.

But it is not a fun read, to say the least. It is serious and technical with a lot of legal details.

[Anduin]

"Knowledge Is Power"

...they're grasping at straws...


The way you get a loan to open a restaurant isn't by cooking your banker the best burger she ever ate. It's done by showing people lined up around the block wanting to buy the burgers.

Man, you're just metaphor king, ain't ya?!

I particularly like that last one. Quite insightful in a very lucid way.

Great stuff!

[Bob Olhsson]

I've never seen a book that really laid it out from the beginning. Most start from the artist already being a major local or regional star. Going through the motions without having a solid fanbase is a waste of time and lots of folks will stand there with their hands out ready to fleece artists.

Tim Sweeney probably comes the closest I've seen to laying out what needs to be done and how to go about doing it.

http://www.tsamusic.com/

[Buzzgrowl]

I've never seen a book that really laid it out from the beginning....

You are very right, me neither. However, Krasilovsky's book does not pretend to be a how-to. There is no guidance in it. It does have a detailed index and is more of a well structured legal reference book. Because it has no how-to, no anecdotes, it is dull and I don't see how the authors imagined any young aspiring musician who just "wanna rock" would have the patience to engage it.

I do not like to link to commercial websites, but perhaps the curious may find the preview interesting (http://www.amazon.com/This-Business-Music-Definitive-Industry/dp/0823077284).

[chrisj]

I couldn't disagree more. The artist is always the boss and must direct the mooks because they generally know absolutely nothing about the artist's fans. An artist needs to become somewhat successful in order to be able to afford to delegate business tasks. Business is really just managing the relationships that the artist has created.

The way you get a loan to open a restaurant isn't by cooking your banker the best burger she ever ate. It's done by showing people lined up around the block wanting to buy the burgers.

Hmmm, you got me there. The question then becomes- are you a cook, or are you an entrepreneur? It sure is possible to be an entrepreneur in music- look at Frank Zappa back in the 60s creating a 'gap-filling product' that filled what he saw as gaps in the musical scene. Frank always had an eye for what people wanted, and he was great about plowing profit back into the business.

That makes Frank a killer mook, the kind I was talking about. Then you had a variety of musicians- cook not entrepreneur- who used him as a springboard, but when he found them they were playing bars and such. Tommy Mars, Adrian Belew, Bozzio, Cucurullo etc...

I guess what you guys are saying is you've got to BE the mook I'm talking about, and what I'm saying is, that makes you the very 'great mook' in question. You haven't defeated the need for great mookage, you've merely taken away some of your attention from your other strengths- practiced less, diffused your focus- in order to meet that need.

In so doing, you're less of the 100% musician, but maybe somebody will hear you before you die :D

Examples of the 100% great mook I'm thinking about don't even sound like mooks in the usual sense. Bill Graham, Frank Barsalona, Allen Klein- maybe not fun guys but some of these guys were/are much sought after because they got you paid, or they put on the show, or they got you the gig and so on.

Contrary to Tyler Durden in Fight Club, even if sticking feathers up your ass does not make you a chicken, it's gonna take you a little bit more in that direction and away from something else. I'm suggesting that maybe you should know enough to be able to find and hire a chicken of your own, instead of sticking feathers up your ass. :lol:

[Bob Olhsson]

I would say don't even think of going to see an entertainment attorney without having read both Passman and Krasilovsky's books.

Knowing what questions to ask can save lots of heartache.

[Bob Olhsson]

Zappa developed his own audience in New York and learned what both he and they would get off on him doing. The key is developing the relationship with the audience. If you let somebody else do that, you don't make any money.

Hey, lots of folks didn't make any money but my point is that it really didn't have to be that way.

[rockdart]

OK, so, I'm armed with a ton of knowledge. I have all of this swimming in my head though I'm trying to let the music flow through me and write some more. But, I have to put my guitar down because my boss is calling me about a firefight that has to happen because somebody effed up somewhere and now that poor planning on their part has become an emergency on mine.

I've pushed the books - the whole library - onto my bandmates and they used them for paper weights or cleaning trays.

I've tried to have discussions with them about what they need to know, but they insist on the rediculous superstitions about "how to make it" in the business.

Now what? Quit? Quit what - my job? The thing that's paid for this expensive hobby up to this point? Quit the band?

See, while this was just a made up scenario (though I have read my share), this whole "just read a book or 5 million" isn't doing me any good, but is helping the publishing company...

and meanwhile, some little sh*ts that haven't paid their dues (playing out, much less in musicianship) are screaming at me in their music video that's on heavy rotation.

And they got signed because they found some freaking program that goes through myspace and automatically starts adding friends by the virus load.


Jaded? Oh HELL yeah. I'm jaded.

Business plans. Did it. Promote like hell. Did it. Gain capital? pffft. Have a great following? yeah. Get great reviews on the album? Oh yeah. Unsolicited? Oh Yeah.

Now what?

Now we get to come into an internet discussion board and talk about how things should be done... but the one thing missing?

"101: How to catch lightning in a bottle"

yeah, it's bad luck to be superstitious, but there's still a huge luck element behind it. Does hard work breed good luck? I may have to ask the guy with the shovel digging the ditch down the street.

[chrisj]

Business plans. Did it. Promote like hell. Did it. Gain capital? pffft. Have a great following? yeah. Get great reviews on the album? Oh yeah. Unsolicited? Oh Yeah.

Now what?

Do it all over again for other bands and make them pay you to do it? :)

Welcome to rock management ;) it sounds like you've been doing a very good job at your end of things... don't discount that.

[rockdart]

wow.

OK, so there's a company that's out hustling bands to get them booked in 4 or 5 clubs in the area. 2 are shite-holes. They are pretty decent as far as layout and being clean, but the location = no crowd.

The link to how the dollar gets split up... at least you know upfront how you're getting screwed (http://www.bigtimefeedback.com/Breakdown/)

[nobby]

If you want to make a living out of music the minimum requirement would be to consult the book "This Business of Music" by Krasilovsky and Shemel (both worked as legal counsels for Warner and Universal). So many of the issues discussed here and in Bob Olhsson's Corner are covered at length and with great competence.

But it is not a fun read, to say the least. It is serious and technical with a lot of legal details.

Read it many years ago. Some of it, since no matter what musical field you're in, most of it doesn't apply to you.

It's a good foundation, but as you mentioned, a lot of legalese, and some of it's content is seriously outdated.

[nobby]

The business is changing.

I heard this for the first time from an A&R dude last week:

"We don't look at anyone unless they have over 100,000 Myspace hits."

I didn't puke because I'm not surprised.

Hmm... How do we choose among these hundreds of bands that sound virtually identical?

:Yawn:

[Bob Olhsson]

The link to how the dollar gets split up...
Bands used to do a lot better than that. Is this typical? You'd make more just renting a hotel ballroom!

[pounce]

that breakdown isn't totally surprising, but i'm not sure if i like it. it seems that for small venues, which this seems to apply to, the band should get more. by small, i mean anything under 500 people or so. club stuff. the venue already is making it's money at the bar.

on the bigger shows where i work, while the band percentage might be like that, it works totally different. and the production costs, stagehand costs, security costs, catering, etc. are possibly higher than that. it's a lot of money, i know that. i could find out the numbers for some of the shows i've worked on. in fact, i'll ask around at work. normally i never ask, i don't have to worry about it. but at the venues i work, the promoter has already bought the act which gets a set amount per the contract and the promoter is the one who gambles at the door.

for the promoters, when a show does well they come out great. and other times they lose their asses. for good promoters it averages out, but you need to have a lot of cash available to make it happen, and you have to be able to have a bad show or two just in case.

[rockdart]

Bands used to do a lot better than that. Is this typical? You'd make more just renting a hotel ballroom!

That's what's happening here in Colorado. We're actually going to take one of the shows he's offering. It's a new market - 75 miles north - that we have no presence in and no way to promote properly but should still pull in a good crowd and convert new fans.

A lot of this has to do with the island we're on out here. Think about how many different markets you have within an 8 hr drive. Now think about that radius out here.

But I've actually seen worse pay. Too often.

[Bob Olhsson]

Maybe we can network here and do something about changing that situation!