Checking a mix in mono

[Static Productions]

When checking mixes in mono, what should we be looking for?

Phase issues I know, but not even really sure exactly what to listen for beside cancellation issues.

What more should we be checking? How should that mix sound compared to the stereo mix?

[chrisj]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it should still groove and sound like music :)

[malice]

When checking mixes in mono, what should we be looking for?

Phase issues I know, but not even really sure exactly what to listen for beside cancellation issues.

What more should we be checking? How should that mix sound compared to the stereo mix?

You should:

Check if the balance is still the same : are the stereo gtr that were so HUGE sounding still there or have they disapear like magik. Is the vocal not getting stupidely loud (or diseapearing)
Is the overall mix getting to dry (in that case, to much out of phase fx). That kinda things.

Of course, everything is related to phase cancelation while you check mono mix.

One very important thing: LISTEN TO THE MONO MIX ON ONE SPEAKER ONLY.

It is much more effective to do it that way.

malice

[jfee]

Balance. Does the anything now jump out too loud, or do you lose something.

..can you still understand every word of the vocal.
..are other instruments clashing too much frequency wise.
..does the mix get muddy overall. Does an element in the mix get muddy when you hit the mono switch.

That's what I'm usually listening for anyways.

When I'm mixing a dense track I used get a rough balance and rough pannings while listening in stereo, then listen in mono and do a pile of the eq work. I recommend trying this. I don't really think its the best thing to do but it really taught me a few things about mono-stereo compatibility in a mix.

Cheers,
j
a
s
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[Static Productions]

And to what extent is this necessary?

Who the hell listens to mono anyway? :icon_eek:

I totally understand that I quick listen in mono will show phase issues (some more than others). But do we need to rack our brains over a perfect mono mix?

[malice]

And to what extent is this necessary?

Who the hell listens to mono anyway? :icon_eek:

I totally understand that I quick listen in mono will show phase issues (some more than others). But do we need to rack our brains over a perfect mono mix?

Good point,

Still, an uncompatible mono mix is revealing other issues that should be taken in acount in a stereo mix.

Good stereo should go along with compatible stereo

imho

malice

[Cosmic Pig]

besides phase I find it's easier to eq a few things in mono. If I have a close mic and an ambient on guitar it's easier to hear an eq change in mono.

If you want to hear the difference, do a mix in stereo and save it, then do a mix in mono. Then a/b them. I was surprised. I gained a better understanding of eq from that, and also realized I was relying on the stereo field too much for seperation.

Cos.

[Fulcrum]

Who the hell listens to mono anyway? :icon_eek:

People who aren't wearing headphones and are in fact far away or around the corner from their speakers-- far enough that the signal collapses to mono by the time it reaches their ears?

Also, aren't there still a few AM radio stations broadcasting in mono?

[Bob Olhsson]

...Who the hell listens to mono anyway?

- The client when they go out to play a gig and have the CD played over a great big mono sound system.

- People who might consider buying it based on a mono internet stream.

- Anybody listening to FM radio at a distance

- Lots of TV sets.

Broadcast processors also can go crazy when something isn't mono compatible



but hey dude, it's your career...:D

[Static Productions]

This is great. Thanks for all the great input. Thats what I was looking for. :very happy:

[knightsy]

When I'm mixing a dense track I used get a rough balance and rough pannings while listening in stereo, then listen in mono and do a pile of the eq work. I recommend trying this. I don't really think its the best thing to do but it really taught me a few things about mono-stereo compatibility in a mix.


I disagree. I get a "faders-up" mix happening on my nearfields, then I go down to one-speaker mono to check the balances. If you can separate things on the tiny speaker, you will certainly have them separated when you go back to full bandwidth stereo!

It's also an easy way to check relative levels. As I play through the song in mono, I'm constantly checking how many things are satnding out to me in the mix - you really can't get any more than 3 or 4 things coming through clearly in mono, so you have to carefully choose what those 3 or 4 things will be - which parts serve the song? Everything else usually gets buried (by me anyway :lol:)

Get these things sorted out in mono, and when you switch back to stereo the mix will sound a lot cleaner.

[Mixerman]

I swear MTV sounds mono to me. Of course, now that I think of it, I don't think I've turned the channel on in quite a few years.

Oops.

At any rate, I give mono a quick check, but I don't spend a lot of time on it. The way I figure it, people are going to listen on all sorts of fucked up systems. So, yeah, I want it to play back on the lowest common denmonator---really, if it's a great vocal performance and a great song, no matter what, it should pop--but my main interest is in presenting the mix properly in stereo. That's how the mix is intended to be heard, and I don't want to compromise my intention if I can avoid it. Of course, it's possible, after years of mixing, the mono compatability issue might be fairly automatic. I just don't have to think about it anymore, because I know what I need to make the stereo mix do to work everywhere. It's like knowing how a mix on NS10s will translate. You begin to adjust automatically.

The brain is remarkable in this way. I travel to different rooms in LA, and every new room requires some adjustments. I find that once I learn a room, I can come back to it a year later, and automatically hear properly in the room. It's really weird. But I digress.

The old school way of mixing is to start out getting balances in mono. I do just about everything else old school, but I never really got into that. If you want to try something like that, I would recommend listening to what you consider to be some of the best stereo mixes you have, and listen to what happens to them in mono. Then you'll have a clearer picture of what it's supposed to sound like.

Mixerman

[Barish]

Also add to Bob's list the restaurants and hotel lobbies and cafés and stuff, but then again, who gives a fuck if a piece of elevator music sounds perfect in mono or stereo...

B.

[philsaudio]

People who aren't wearing headphones and are in fact far away or around the corner from their speakers-- far enough that the signal collapses to mono by the time it reaches their ears?

Also, aren't there still a few AM radio stations broadcasting in mono?
Every time the stereo lite on your FM receiver ( tv set) goes out you are listening in mono. This is usually due to poor reception. In some areas the lite may go on and off like a picket fence is blocking the reception, especially if the receiver is moving.

[Big Woofer]

Radio alarms by that many people wake up to often only have one speaker.

For a lot of folks this may be their only time of the day that they listen to new music, probably chart hits.

I suspect that anything that wants to make a serious impact to those people has to be reasonably mono compatable. Other than that its' not really important.

Of course the real music fans will probably have iPods and use iTunes, so stereo rules there.

You could also argue that headphone mixes are also less of an issue in this day and age becuase so much music is heard through tiny ear buds.

P.S. I'm new here, and I really love this site, so much quality information and not so many patronising posts to the less experienced. I'm two years down the line with my mixing skills, so I'm still learning loads on a weekly basis.

[gitarted]

Another thing that works nicely is to get up and walk around the room, See how your mix sounds from different places in the room.
Then listen to the mix from outside the room.
I like to walk out into the hall and listen to my mix (really), you would be amazed at how things jump out or drop out of your mix. Things that weren't a problem so you thought/or you may have not heard like a bunch of energy building up in the low end.

Or like walk out into the hall, and ...where did the kick go? or suddenly I can't even hear the bass, or something like...OMG all I can hear is the frikkin bass!

It's just one more (easy) way to check your mix.

that's my .02 :)

[elborgan]

I always find it funny when I catch myself 'pretending' not to pay attention to the mix whilst outside the room making a brew or something :)




Millions of people listen to music in swimming pools and half the time their heads are under the water. So, one of the first things I do (before checking in mono) is run a bath and submerge myself. It's important to use a good comfortable snorkel because when it comes to checking a whole album you can be there for some time.

[tannoy]

So, one of the first things I do (before checking in mono) is run a bath and submerge myself. It's important to use a good comfortable snorkel because when it comes to checking a whole album you can be there for some time.

Thx for that hint ! :Thumbsup:

I always have breathing problems when being under water for a while...

[elborgan]

No worries!

Just one of the many tips I picked up when assisting P-diddy back in 2004.....

[tannoy]

Must have been an extraordinary experience...uhm...one more thing I obviously do wrong is that I undress before I step into the bathtub. Live + learn.

[PSN Big Al]

one more thing I obviously do wrong is that I undress before I step into the bathtub.

WATER POLO!

[elborgan]

one more thing I obviously do wrong..

Remember, there's no right and wrong in audio!! only what works for you.

Sean was a fan of bubble bath but that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.

Of course it depends on the genre....

[atoysruskid]

WATER POLO!

very clever al. :lol:

[tannoy]

very clever al. :lol:

Yes.

Indeed.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4536/motzeb0.gif


:grin:


Marco

[MKZ]

Yes.





Indeed.


Fixed.

[mclights]

im just currious... ive heard a lot of people say that checking mono in one speaker is the best way to go, but what makes it better than hitting mono on the desk?

more specifically, what are you hearing thats different between the two? are they night-and-day differences or subtle nuance differences?

thanks

-s

[otek]

what makes it better than hitting mono on the desk?

With a single speaker, you eliminate the time/frequency variables of the sound arriving from two sources. This will make it easier for your ears to differentiate between phase relationships and frequency content coming from the mics, rather than your spatial impression of speaker position in the room.



otek

[tannoy]

With a single speaker, you eliminate the time/frequency variables of the sound arriving from two sources. This will make it easier for your ears to differentiate between phase relationships and frequency content coming from the mics, rather than your spatial impression of speaker position in the room.


One's got to hit mono on the desk using this technique, me thinks ?


Marco

[otek]

One's got to hit mono on the desk using this technique, me thinks ?

Or pan the relevant audio hard right or left.

Depends on what you are listening to and at what stage in the mix.


otek

[atoysruskid]

hey - hijacking the thread here for a minute...


mercenary has the lucid GENx 192 master clock for a ridiculous steal right now. would my setup benefit significantly from an external clock? right now my lucid 88192 is serving as my a/d d/a and clock. i'm not running anything else in the way of digital gear atm...

[3rd world order]

One's got to hit mono on the desk using this technique, me thinks ?

i just take 2 avantone/auratones and sit them right next to each other... it's mono enough.

i start all my mixes in mono and use LCR panning principles.

mono is great for a lot of reasons but one of my favorite techniques is having a mono drum room mic "behind" the band then aggressively gating the close mics so they "jump forward and smack you in the mouth"

when mixing in mono i try to get as much rhythmic front-to-back pumping motion as possible -- in sympathy with the groove.

one technique is to put a fast attack compressor (to shave down peaks) and LPF (darker is further "back") on the DRM Room and a spank (longer attack) compressor on the stripped/gated/additive close mic...

[AndyGallas]

im just currious... ive heard a lot of people say that checking mono in one speaker is the best way to go, but what makes it better than hitting mono on the desk?

more specifically, what are you hearing thats different between the two? are they night-and-day differences or subtle nuance differences?

thanks

-s

With one speaker there will be no comb filter effect at around 3kHz, caused by the distance of our ears, as the signals will arrive at both ears at the same time. On the other hand centered signals in a stereomix will have a slight peak at around 3kHz then, as the comb filter effect doesn't apply any more.

So if you eq your centered lead vocal on a single speaker e.g. for more intelligibility, you might get surprised when you switch back to stereo and the intelligibility sounds worse.

Mono compatibility is always a bit relative.

[meLoCo_go]

With one speaker there will be no comb filter effect at around 3kHz, caused by the distance of our ears, as the signals will arrive at both ears at the same time. On the other hand centered signals in a stereomix will have a slight peak at around 3kHz then, as the comb filter effect doesn't apply any more.
I think that applies only if you have one ear)))
You still can have comb filtering if you have two pick-up points and one source.
I think one speaker is better better because room doesn't affect localization that much. If you have two speakers and room that is somewhat asymmetric your central position may become frequency dependent. That can happen with single speaker two, but to much lesser degree I guess.

[AndyGallas]

I think that applies only if you have one ear)))
You still can have comb filtering if you have two pick-up points and one source.
I think one speaker is better better because room doesn't affect localization that much.
Sure, the surface of the mixing board would be the classic but in general if you have a single speaker straight in front of you and have taken a bit care of first refections there should be no comb filter effect.

If you have two speakers and room that is somewhat asymmetric your central position may become frequency dependent.
You have comb filter effects even in a perfect room with the common listener/stereo-speaker triangle for centered sounds. Because e.g. what comes out from the right speaker to your right ear you will also arrive at your left ear, only around 0,26ms later due the relation of speaker angle and ear distance and hence the notches betwin 2-3k or so.

[meLoCo_go]

You have comb filter effects even in a perfect room with the common listener/stereo-speaker triangle for centered sounds. Because e.g. what comes out from the right speaker to your right ear you will also arrive at your left ear, only around 0,26ms later due the relation of speaker angle and ear distance and hence the notches betwin 2-3k or so.
Yes, but it won't change if you don't have left speaker, you'd still have arrival time difference if the sound is coming from the side - did you mean single speaker straight in front of you?

[AndyGallas]

did you mean single speaker straight in front of you?

Yep.

[meLoCo_go]

Yep.
That's right but you'd better not turn your head!:grin:

[AndyGallas]

That's right but you'd better not turn your head!:grin:

Yeah, better not :D

Here is something you can try... play some music through a really crappy mono speaker, which has a lot of energy in the mid/uppermid range (the built in mac g5 speaker is fine for that). Close your eyes while listening and turn your head slowly to the left (or right), stay there a bit, concentrate on the vocals or cymbals than turn your head back to where you started. You should notice the comb filter effect then.

[AndyGallas]

Just in case, of course I was half way kidding in my last post. I hope no one is sitting like an idiot in front of his computer speaker and turning his head around!

As we all know timedelay and amplitude difference is part of the trick that we as humans can locate things we are surrounded by. The only time when this doesn't apply is when something is right in front of us in nature. I guess that's one reason, why a lot of folks find it odd to listen to the monosum of two speakers, it's just not natural even in well treated rooms. But then again if you pan something centered same rules applies.