Finding a Way

[dumbass]

Amongst all you ladies, gentlemen and crazy mofo's... I'm sure there's a collective to find a way... maybe THIS place is the beginning... the Womb... the birthplace of the new media... rock-n-roll 2.0 (Wouldn't it be apropriate?!?)

What is it going take to really put together the next generation of music enterprise?

One that's actually profitable to everyone involved... and fair - i.e. proportionate to the involvement and investment?

Not interested hashing out bullshit ideas... a real dialog as to what I can do as a studio, and what producers and artists can do to make a go of it... to make the new generation of label.

The old skool model is a dead model... time for an educated (or at least well thought out) discussion as to what it takes to make a living in this new era.

I know Motown had some things that are able to transcend the change... things like a great stable of session musicians and talented songwriters... but what else can be taken from that model that worked?

And just as important... what do we KNOW doesn't work... often that can tell you a direction.

[Bob Olhsson]

Certainly there's plenty we can learn from Motown however Motown was a second-generation indi singles label that was built on a foundation that the first generation of indi labels had created.

We're really back at square one of the first generation indi labels' challenges. These include venues of exposure, performing venues and distribution. The first generation of indi singles labels created both the dedicated record store (which was a place to hangout, meet chicks and much more than just having records for sale.) and the independent record distributor.

The first generation of indi album labels were involved with the creation of modern rock concert promotion during the late 1960s. This is where Grossman and BGP come in. Motown was percieved as a "black" company because the only infrastructure we had available was the chitlin' circuit. The creation of rock venues changed all of that.

The problem today is that it isn't just a matter of finding a "new business model." We really need to create a whole new music business, i.e. all of the necessary relationnships from scratch.

[bunnerabb]

We really need to create a whole new music business, i.e. all of the necessary relationnships from scratch.

That is... yeah. Fuck yeah. Burn down the mission and build a new temple.

I wish I knew where to begin. I'm up to my ass just trying to get this record made and I'm stumped as to what the hell to do with it once it is.

[Bob Olhsson]

I think you need to begin at the very beginning with performers eyeball to eyeball with potential fans.

[dumbass]

Bob,

In the B4TMD thread...

Some of us may need to START coffeehouse venues that work right in order to set an example.
Didn't a good many scenes and talent come out of the venerable house party in the old days Bob?
Private parties in a sense?

Most of jazz and folk developed out of rent parties in the late '40s and early '50s that evolved into clubs and coffee houses by the early '60s. The San Francisco rock scene began as rent parties.

OK, I'll happily agree that's at least part of it... Developing a network of coffee houses for artists to play... but I can't see the likes of many bands crankin' up a couple of Marshall stacks down at the local Starbucks... gonna' have to be some bigger venues along the network!

So, where does anyone propose the new rent parties and their promoters come from? The promoter's around here are just interested in beer sales and then assess in seats... they seem to have it backwards just... (DOH!)

Let's look at another paradigm in getting the artists in front of the public... What about webcasts?

[Bob Olhsson]

There's no getting around the fact that performers have to adapt what they do to the venue because it's all about really connecting with fans as opposed to posing as arena rockers.

I think live music webcasts hold great potential.

[bunnerabb]

I think you need to begin at the very beginning with performers eyeball to eyeball with potential fans.

I've been doing that every time I walk onstage. Maybe it's now for the best to do it with my own product instead of selling signed band's songs.

I mean thirty motherfuckers high five me and ask for my autograph after I sit in with bands, let alone front them.

Maybe it's time to build my house.

[Bob Olhsson]

...Maybe it's time to build my house.Probably!

At the very least get a mailing list of those folks going and start creating something small but memorable for a small number of them to attend. Then invite a different group to another special small gig.

The key is not overexposing yourself. This means that fans start to feel that while your gigs are great, they are no longer special because they can go see you anytime without going out of their way. We are all fans of somebody. It's a matter of thinking about what it takes to get us out to see somebody.

[shikawkee]

The other key is.....always selling out the venue or making it looked packed. Always play a smaller venue until you can pack a bigger room. This will make you, and the word, spread faster than anything.

[Bob Olhsson]

The third must is to always headline. if at all possible.

Fans are coming to the show at least as much for each other as for the artist. I learned this working for Quicksilver Messenger Service and the Dead. It's too bad we didn't really understand this and the role that publicity plays at Motown. The Beatles changed everything but it took us three years to catch on.

[Swafford]

I've suggested this before, but a podcast of music and interviews with a targeted demographic, malleable, yet cohesive, playlist and a great voice and interviewer on a well traveled website might be a way to help expose music.

[magicchord]

There's no getting around the fact that performers have to adapt what they do to the venue because it's all about really connecting with fans as opposed to posing as arena rockers.

I think live music webcasts hold great potential.

I would cite Kulak's Woodshed here in the L.A. area as a prime example of what a live webcast can be.
www.kulakswoodshed.com

However it looks like the Woodshed's days are numbered, thanks to a cranky neighbor, as well as the economics of trying to maintain a free, donation-supported listening room.

I apologize for pasting this long email here; too bad I can't attach text files, hint-hint:

Hi Everyone, it’s Paul.
You’re not gonna believe this.

After two years of legal struggles, the variance that Kulak's Woodshed was granted in December of 2005 that has allowed us to remain open has been voided by the City of LA Zoning Administration. I have until December 31st to resolve the entire matter or be forced to close. It all centers around non existing parking problems that they believe are occurring due to one persons relentless false complaints. You guessed it, that man is the Woodsheds next door neighbor Charles Peyton, aka “Jeff Stryker” the porn star guy. He has succeeded once again in using the City as his soldiers to wage his personal vendetta war against me.

Many of you recall that Peyton’s vindictive crusade against me and the Woodshed is in retaliation for being banned from the Woodshed for his constant loud and disorderly behavior during performances when he used to visit here a few years ago. You can not imagine the hateful, venomous and mean spirited determination that possesses him and what lengths this man continues to go to in his efforts to shut the Woodshed down.

Before I continue, I want to thank everyone for helping me to keep Kulak's Woodshed alive over the years. Once again, I am turning to you for your help. I tried but I can not keep up with city permit demands and the financial responsibilities by myself. I have recently been working with a number of volunteers who have helped me set up several committees to focus on what we need to do. If you’d like to be involved please reply to this email now. This is not going to easy. We are racing against the clock and we need results quickly.

Here are way in which you can help now.

1. Letters, phone calls, emails, faxes and personal visits to our Council Member Wendy Greuel and the Mayor Antonio R. Villaraigosa.

2. Attorneys: We need one that specializes in Land Use Law, and another that specializes in Civil Litigation.

3. Financial Donations: A "Save Kulak’s Woodshed Legal Defense Fund" bank account has been set up to pay for the attorneys.

Before I give you the details (below) please allow me to explain how and why Peyton was successful at sabotaging our variance.

Among the many conditions in our variance was the order for us to lease a minimum 19-space legal paved parking lot from a neighboring business within 500 feet of the Woodshed. Those of you who have been to the Woodshed know that even on our busiest nights, there is always plenty of street parking on Laurel Canyon Blvd. With our shows starting at 8pm over 90% of the neighboring businesses close well before the Woodshed events begin.

The Country School owns the dirt lot directly across the street from us and said the Woodshed could use it at night when they are always closed. However, the City of LA said it is not a legal lot because it is not paved and does not have night-time lights. I was able to secure an affidavit of written permission to use a paved parking lot on the south west corner of Laurel Canyon and Weddington (now leased by the Country School to use during the day) that satisfied the Zoning Administrations requirements.

Unfortunately, Peyton contacted the owner of the parking lot shortly after our variance was finalized and told the owner that the Woodshed was a danger and liability to the community. He made numerous false and damaging claims that Woodshed patrons create terrible parking problems, that our performances are so loud it upsets all the neighbors on Laurel Canyon as well as the residents in the apartments behind us and that we create excessive noise by shouting and talking in our parking lot in back of the Woodshed. He accuses us of drinking alcohol and smoking dope in the alley, vandalizing, as well as urinating on neighboring businesses and that we have even physically attacked Peyton on at least two occasions. I have these statements on videotape from the December, 2004 Zoning Administration hearing and in letters Peyton distributed to the community.

Because of Peyton’s accusations the owner of the parking lot decided to withdraw the Woodshed’s permission to use it. Repeated efforts by me and some very prominent people in the community have failed to change his mind. So far we have been unable to get permission from any of the other lots in the area that are large enough (19 spaces) to satisfy the Zoning Administrations requirements but I’m still hopeful. Even if I did secure the use of another parking lot the Zoning Administration refuses to allow me to amend the variance or show any flexibility in any way. So because we lost the parking lot the variance was voided. Because the variance was voided we were not allowed to receive our final occupancy permits. But wait it gets worse.

Because I could not get my permits, Peyton was successful at convincing the City Attorney to take me and my landlord to court charging us with violating LA Municipal Code number 12.21A1 (A) also known as “Misuse of Land” (a misdemeanor). Now my landlord is being held liable as well. We both plead no contest and are due back in court on January 24th, 2007. Understandably, the landlord has asked his own attorney how he can protect himself from further litigation. On October 31st his attorney sent me a letter ordering me to resolve all my variance and permit issues or vacate the building by by December 31st.

If the Woodshed is forced to close its doors, it is unlikely we could afford to re-open in another location. My landlord is only charging me than 55 cents per square foot for a space that could easily get $2 which is the average price for a space like this in Los Angeles. The bottom line is if it weren’t for my tremendous luck in finding this space I never would have been able to afford to open the Woodshed in the first place 7 years ago. I have a wonderful and very supportive landlord and I am very grateful. If anyone out there is able to locate a suitable place at the price I’m now paying then I’m all ears. But until that happens if ever, we have to fight hard to keep what we have. (Peyton has a different landlord that is doggedly supportive of his tenant.)

The City of LA Zoning Administration never attempted to gather the proper information needed to form an educated opinion about the Woodshed and about Peyton. If they did, they would see that Peyton's claims are all false and that they are being used by him as a proxy army to attack me.

In spite of the overwhelming numbers of letters of support for the Woodshed from surrounding businesses, the community, and our City of LA Council Member Wendy Greuel, the Zoning Administration chose to take Peyton at his word without any independent investigation to determine the truth. If they did a proper on site investigation they would see that there is no need for the Woodshed to have an off-street parking lot because there is plenty of parking on Laurel Canyon to support a tiny venue like ours.

The City of LA and the Zoning Administration is also fully aware that I have been awarded two restraining orders against Charles Peyton for his repeated threats, verbal intimidation, and unending harassment yet they don't seem to care.

Here is what we must do now:

1. We need to flood the office of our Council Member Wendy Greuel and the Mayor's Office with letters, phone calls, emails, faxes, and personal visits so they understand that there is very powerful amount of groundswell support for the Woodshed among the community.

In you letters please include these key points:

-Thank Wendy Greuel and for her past support for the Woodshed but make it very clear to her and the Mayor the urgency of of our current situation.

-Describe your experience using the street parking on Laurel Canyon Bl..

-Urge the Mayor and Wendy Greuel to set up and be a part of a meeting between me, 2 or 3 representatives of the Woodshed and the Zoning Administration to try to find a way to save our variance and keep us open.

-Describe why the Woodshed is good for the community and why you love coming here. Speak from your own heart.

-If you have children who have been to the Woodshed or watched it on the webcast please ask them to write letters as well explaining their experience here.

-It does not matter what part of planet Earth you live. Please write your letters and make your calls now. Every single person makes a positive difference. Click here (http://www.lacity.org/council/cd2/cd2_di.htm or copy and paste into the address column of your browser for Ms. Greuels district #2 info.)

-Also please email/ and/or snail mail me a copy of the letters you send so I can have them for my records. Our mailing address is on the home page of our website at www.kulakswoodshed.com My email is paulkulak@earthlink.net

Council Member Wendy Greuel
200 N Spring St. room #475
Los Angeles, Ca 90012
phone: (213) 473-7002
fax: (213)680-7895
wgreuel@council.lacity.org

Mayor Antonio R. Villaraigosa
200 N Spring St. room 303
Los Angeles, Ca 90012
phone: (213) 978-0600
fax: (213) 978-0750
mayor@lacity.org

2. If you know an Attorney that specializes in Land Use Law, and/or another that specializes in Civil Litigation then please contact them, explain our situation and have them contact me asap.

3. Please send in your generous Financial Donations now so we can pay for the attorneys. Were probably looking at a minimum $5,000 retainer just to start.

For those of you who wish to make your donation tax deductable you can make a check out to “The North Hollywood Community Forum” They are a non profit 501c3 organization that was founded in 1998 to help facilitate financial grants to artist organizations and individuals. They have been our tax exempt fiduciary agent as of 2002. If you send them (us) a check please write “Kulak’s Woodshed” in the notes so they know who it’s for. They take 10% of the total donation and forward the balance to us by check.

Here is their information.
North Hollywood Community Forum
Kenneth C. Banks Jr., Executive Director
11645 Margate St.
North Hollywood, CA 91601

Their Business Tax Registration Number is: 972765
Their Federal Tax Identification Number is: 95-4660524

Some of my final thoughts.

Many of you may be wondering why I work so hard to keep the Woodshed alive. It’s because over the past 7 years I’ve received more love and respect, made more friends, seen and heard more amazing singer songwriters and created more wonderful memories than a freight train could haul. I’ll be damned if I’m going to let one neighborhood bully porn star destroy the Woodshed and our community labor of love.

It's amazingly ironic that Peyton of all people has chosen to wage a zoning war against the Woodshed while for the past 10 years he has been conducting his porn mail order business next door, across the street from an elementary school in clear violation of Los Angeles Municipal Code 12.70 which prohibits his type of business from operating within 1,000 feet of a school.

And get this, he’s using the Woodshed for his own friggin’ self-promotion. I'm the fool for telling you this because I’m only playing into his hands but you really need to check out www.charlespeyton.com This is a website that he started 2 years ago that is dedicated to destroying me, the Woodshed and Wendy Greuel while at the same time promoting his porn products for sale over the internet. One shrewd dude. Have a look if you’d like to get a better understanding of just what kind person Peyton really is.

I am more determined than ever to keep Kulak’s Woodshed open. Please stand behind me on this. It is an idea of mine that I dreamt up and built by myself with my own hands. You all have embraced it and helped to turn it into one of the most unique and magical music listening rooms on the planet. Over 5,000 people watch the multi-camera webcast every day on the Internet all around the world and our audience keeps on growing !!! Together as a community that is 7,000 people strong. We have the POWER to keep the Woodshed open and to continue celebrating the great singer songwriters of our time.

I will never surrender !!! I will NEVER quit !!! But I can’t do it by myself. I need ALL of you to participate. Please help me save Kulak’s Wooshed.

Thank you for your support

Paul Kulak

[shikawkee]

P.S.-A friend said this to me over the holiday and it really hit a chord: "The reason there aren't any great scenes in major cities anymore is that musicians and artists can't afford to live in them!"

So I say let's take it to the outskirts and keep it for ourselves. Let them come to us!! (Hopefully the rich bastards will need some entertainment eventually! <g>)

[dumbass]

Magicchord... man, that sux for Paul. I sincerely wish him the best of luck and will try to support him with a legal defence donation. Payton seems like a prick that needs to be shutdown himself.

P.S.-A friend said this to me over the holiday and it really hit a chord: "The reason there aren't any great scenes in major cities anymore is that musicians and artists can't afford to live in them!"

So I say let's take it to the outskirts and keep it for ourselves. Let them come to us!! (Hopefully the rich bastards will need some entertainment eventually! <g>)

I'm pretty much in agreement with this too!

OK, so there needs to be affordable venues in the urban areas... tall order in some areas. But with the latest upwardly mobile Gex X/Y-er's there's bound to be some great venues to be had!

I know in my case, that the studio is out in the country and setting up for webcasting and streaming IS on my priority list as I build. Don't know that I have a big enough space to hold more than a dozen in an audience, but 12 people in a studio to watch a 4-5 piece band go "live" on the internet would definitely be a friggin' PACKED house!!

What about about an advanced distribution model?

I was thinking about my generation... we had album covers... THAT was the incentive to buy product.

The next generation (or three) are geared towards service delivery... I'm thinking streaming subscriptions... exclusive webcasts... advanced releases and that kind of thing... kind of a "pay-per-view" and XM subscription hybrid. Offering a realistic value for the services provided... You want a basic service, you get to download X. You want more, you pay Y. You want X & Y, you pay the premium subscription... but you get a T-Shirt and some other SWAG.

But, I don't know that a single band could provide all of the services. What about the "labels" having alliances... does anyone see that happening?

[J.G.]

"WWWomb Records".

Has a nice wwwing to it...

[Bob Olhsson]

Broadcasting turns people on to music but I think the payoff remains the live eyeball to eyeball show where the fans interact with each other in addition to the music. It's this social component that makes popular music lots more than just "art." With Motown the fans weren't seeing each other at shows but they were inviting friends over and dancing to the records. Post-Beatles rock revolved almost entirely around live performances.

[Swafford]

Post-Beatles rock revolved almost entirely around live performances.

As a post Beatles rocker, this was as much about being part of a tribe as it was being excited to hear the songs in a new context. One of the things I've grown to distaste about contemporary shows is artists who strive to recreate the album in concert. But I like jazz, too.

[shikawkee]

We could do this but it has to be a coordinated effort.
We could put together a killer show with great talent
and have it rotate on a regional basis even.

[Cosmic Pig]

I can't imagine how you'd make enough money to pay bands without booze as the main draw. We played a gig here in Vancouver at a pot cafe once and it was the same problem. All they could sell was coffee etc. because they're byob (bring your own bag), but even though the place was packed they still weren't bringing in any kind of serious dough. Very cool gig btw, the vibe was completely different from the usual drunk wahoos.

But anyway... this is as good a thread as any for one of my favorite rants.

There's a few reasons why live music has gone sideways. The main one being it's not top 40 anymore, disco is. Smoking laws also took a round out of it. So bands started playing the smaller neighborhood pubs on weekends. When that happened the agents stopped bothering booking them becuase there wasn't enough dough in them.

Around the time this was all developing the jams started getting popular, so the hacks started making their way to the stage, and eventually realized they could book gigs themselves on weekends. Lots had day jobs and undercut everyone becuase all they wanted to do was play and cash wasn't an issue.

So without the agents weeding out the hacks getting gigs became a sales thing rather than how good the band was. Mainly because bar owners are idiots and wouldn't know a good band if it kicked them in the head. They also don't understand the concept of consistency of music style, the bands were country one week and rock the next. Quiet duos one week and full loud bands the next. So the bands weren't drawing crowds. Stages got smaller or disappeared altogether and lighting became one or two colored hundred watters if you were lucky.

So it's no fucking wonder live music went for shit. Quality went for shit, pay went for shit and stages went for shit. Yet there are a few bars owners who understand this stuff and are consistent, have a stage, and good bands. They have lineups to get in all weekend. Try to explain any of this to the other bar owners and they don't get it. They see the value of food and sports tv's all over, yet don't want anything to do with bands because they would have to book them and build a stage that takes up valuable real estate in their empty bars.

I've tried to explain all this to a few club owners and they're not interested because they've been sold crap from too many hack bands.

There's other shit too. Back in the day you had to entertain. You had to work the crowd. Music was the vehicle but entertainment was the rule. Plus bar owners seem to have forgotten what waitresses are for.

If I owned a bar it would be packed guaranteed. I tried to get one once but didn't have the sales or business skills to pull it off with no money.

What's needed is to find an area of town with a strip of scuz bars, then get one of them and go to city hall and tell them you're changing the strip from scuz to haute couture so they'll back you up. When the other bar owners see your place packed they'll follow suit. And there ya go, a healthy live music scene. Just keep the hacks out. I know the perfect strip for that in Vancouver. Huge population base and right in the middle is a strip of scuz bars from the fifties with the neon ladies and escorts entrances. Fuuuuuck.

Cos.

[shikawkee]

I can't imagine how you'd make enough money to pay bands without booze as the main draw.

Well first of all you sure as shootin' wouldn't just be sellin' coffee at the cafe and if they are it's their loss. Custom desserts, home-made noshies....whatever it takes. Plus, if you have your merch in order and pack the place you'll sell plenty, trust me. I've never had a gig with a packed house that I didn't sell out of merch.

[rockdart]

What's headlining anymore? Is it the last slot or is there a time that is more conducive?

That's what I've been running into. Crowds bailing at 11 or midnight, so the prime spot is now around 10:30.

I'm thinking the "backdoor prohibition" is to blame - that is, whenever a club starts doing well, 5-O starts to flock to the place with their DUI jones on full.

You have to understand your audience too. Kids buy more records, but "all ages" shows kills any sort of 21+ crowd.

I'm sure they're doing this in other places around the country, but Des Moines has done really well with "All Ages" shows starting at 5, concluding at 8:30. You then clear the club and re-open at 9 (or whatever) for 21+. In a lot of these shows, the same line-up will play twice.

The nice thing? Getting paid for 2 shows and not having to truck gear to 2 different venues.

I'll be looking here in the future to start booking shows with other bands... a "scratch our back and we'll scratch yours"; bands have their markets but its hard to get into others. Say I can line up a theatre show here and fill the bill with whom we want and that happens in 3 different cities... now there are 4 bands on a mini-tour all getting decent gigs.

Anyone interested initially?

[Cosmic Pig]

Well first of all you sure as shootin' wouldn't just be sellin' coffee at the cafe and if they are it's their loss. Custom desserts, home-made noshies....whatever it takes. Plus, if you have your merch in order and pack the place you'll sell plenty, trust me. I've never had a gig with a packed house that I didn't sell out of merch.

I assume you mean you play for free? Cuz that would work, trouble is you can't get the good players to do that. Sure you'll get a handful of decent original acts trying to develop a following, but not enough for the entertainment to stay consistent.

In order to pay a band a standard 400$ for a four piece you'll need every person that comes in to spend large before it becomes profitable. You have to think like a business owner who doesn't give a rats ass about music. Bottom line is when he's open he makes x amout of dollars. When he has a band he makes x more dollars. The band has to draw enough people to at least pay their wages or they won't go for it. So for a band to make 400$ profit the bar or coffee shop has to bring in 800$ at least after you take in to account the cost of booze or coffee and the extra staff etc. I can see it with booze because three good tables of heavy drinkers will drop 800$ easy, but coffee? I dunno.

Cos.

[shikawkee]

I assume you mean you play for free? Cuz that would work, trouble is you can't get the good players to do that. Sure you'll get a handful of decent original acts trying to develop a following, but not enough for the entertainment to stay consistent.

In order to pay a band a standard 400$ for a four piece you'll need every person that comes in to spend large before it becomes profitable. You have to think like a business owner who doesn't give a rats ass about music. Bottom line is when he's open he makes x amout of dollars. When he has a band he makes x more dollars. The band has to draw enough people to at least pay their wages or they won't go for it. So for a band to make 400$ profit the bar or coffee shop has to bring in 800$ at least after you take in to account the cost of booze or coffee and the extra staff etc. I can see it with booze because three good tables of heavy drinkers will drop 800$ easy, but coffee? I dunno.

Cos.

I wasn't expecting folks to play for free.

I think $400. for a four-piece that has no
following yet is a little unreasonable FYI-

If the club owner doesn't give a rats ass about
music then that's not our venue!

[Cosmic Pig]

I think we might be talking about two different animals here Shikawkee. My original rant was about bars that have cover bands, and I think you're talking more about original acts.

However, they're both the same thing to a bar or cafe owner. It's what will draw money they're interested in whether they dig music or not. Original acts have to be pretty freakin good to develop a following. Most don't have one beyond a handful of buddies.

Sure some owners are into supporting the arts but if they lose money on it not many will stick with it. If you got real busy and organized this stuff so you had a circuit of places to play and decent acts to play them you might be able to get something going, but that would be an utter pain in the ass. The owners would be bitching if they didn't make their nut that week and trying to keep four or five bands organized is a total pain. "Uh the bass player is on crack so we won't be able to do the gig tonight." etc.

The only way a place can make money with originals is if the venue has a following. That means consistently great original acts, and there's the nut right there. In order to weed through the thousands of bands inundating the owner with promo packs the owner has to get pro-active and get out to see all these bands. It takes time they probably don't have. Plus most original bands play originals because they're not good enough to play covers.

Anyways... It's all crap really. The only way out of all the catch 22's here is to have really good bands, whether they're original or not. Consistent entertainment is the key to it all.

... right. And 100$ is what decent players make for a night up here in canadian funds... so thats what, 90$ american? Most of the good players around here won't work for less. Shit my uncle was getting 75$ a night on the road back in '74.

Original bands pretty much have to play for free unless they have a name. It's all in how many people they can draw, and unknown original artists just don't draw crowds.

Cos.

[Swafford]

The only way a place can make money with originals is if the venue has a following. That means consistently great original acts, and there's the nut right there. In order to weed through the thousands of bands inundating the owner with promo packs the owner has to get pro-active and get out to see all these bands. It takes time they probably don't have. Plus most original bands play originals because they're not good enough to play covers.

Here in Cincinnati, a medium market city that people love to hate in the boring midwestern US, there are currently 3 venues that pay guarantees every night of the week to original bands. Yeah the pays not what you would get if your a top tier cover band, but it's a lot more then what you would expect from all of the cities I've played in. These are 'no cover charge' bars. Yes indeed, mostly it's the venues that have the following, not the bands and the bands that have a following see a boost in pay and there's always $50 to $100 more at the end of the night if the place is really crowded. What makes it work - kind of for the reasons Cos stated - consistently good music, occasionally great. My shitty little band (after all we do 90% original music, you know, because we're not nearly talented enough musicians to play covers) gets the medium range of the guarantee (plus beer!) for a Thursday night, occasionally we do a weekend, but we (I) know where I fit in the scheme of things here in Podunkville, so see no need to push it. Not great pay, but decent enough to make loading the shit in the van and getting 4 hours of sleep seem worth while.

My point is only that different markets have different dynamics and the goal of any discussion of "Finding A Way" should be about finding ways that are working and figuring out why they work and then seeing if they apply to your locale.

I would agree that Cos and Shiw are looking at two different dynamics and demographics. The coffeehouse thing will not generate the kind of cash flow to support a top shelf cover band, and the meat market that's interested in the Top 40 bar scene is not going to be interested in a 'listening' experience, which I'm pretty sure is what Ed is talking about. Ed's goal, like mine, is mining mature audiences as we're both, um, mature (and by that I mean old'r), so the wine and coffee crowd is a suitable target for our music. Is this possible? Maybe, based on my experience here in Shit Town. For me, though, it doesn't need to be, I have a venue I can put shows in (it even has a stage and a bar!, Though, alas, no real club lighting). Our issues are not room related. They are mostly what you do after you have a room - promotion, bodies, establishing and maintaining a fan base.

[dumbass]

Here in Cincinnati, a medium market city that people love to hate ... <snippage>

My point is only that different markets have different dynamics and the goal of any discussion of "Finding A Way" should be about finding ways that are working and figuring out why they work and then seeing if they apply to your locale.

I would agree that... <more snippage> They are mostly what you do after you have a room - promotion, bodies, establishing and maintaining a fan base.

Swaff-baby!!! YOU GET IT!! YOU GET IT!!!

(I maybe stupid... but maybe not as stupid as I even thought!!)

Bob's right about the bands needing face time with an audience to get, build and keep a fan base...

It's the promotion and post show stuff that's the tough part... (no shit) If they don't know you're at a venue, or if you have nothing for them to remember you by... it's kind of a moot point to play. (read: Not enough return on investment - ROI)

I've seen quite a few bands get done with a reasonably well attended show and not have much, if any, merch... once the excitement in the crowd realizes that there's nothing to snag... they bail... and FAST.

So, my question then becomes, is the label of the future going to need to invest in the bands by fronting things like initial merch inventory?, finding (and WORKING WITH) promoters?, subsedising advertising?, demographics research?, setting up some of the applicable venues for showcasing their artists?, hosting websites?, doing credit card processing?, etc... Or should all this be left up to the artists?

I would think a "good" label should do some, if not all, of these things. The sub-title is then; what becomes the fair and equitable ROI for the label and for the artists?

I know everythings negotiable, but under the "old" system, it pretty much became endentured servitutde... which is bullshit! It's time to rewrite what a fair contract means. With levels of income being as small as they are, I wonder if it doesn't make sense for there to be a label for "part time" artists as well as full-timers... so THAT should also be taken into account.

[shikawkee]

Yeah, the room is not the issue. We can get rooms to play.
The real task is coordinating promotion and bodies and maintaining it. Where's the next empresario?

BTW:A big mistake here is thinking that a label has anything to do with this. You will not find a label to do this stuff in this day and age. Just not gonna' happen, I promise you. They want YOU to do the work and you know what? They're right....at least in this climate. This has to be an effort by the musicians and the clubs. It has absolutely nothing to do with record labels and if you continue to think that way you'll be standing at the station with a suitcase in your hand for a looooooong time.

The label of the future is you (or at least a very real PARTNERSHIP with one where you do a lot of the work). If you can cut through the muck on your own then you're their man/woman. That's what it takes now. The paradigm has changed.

[dumbass]

Hmmmm... I OBVIOUSLY haven't been making things too clear...

What I'm proposing/exploring IS the paradigm!

As a studio owner, I am working towards understanding what the label of the future NEEDS to look like and be... that and if I can begin to create what that new paradigm is... to start creating it NOW!

[shikawkee]

Hmmmm... I OBVIOUSLY haven't been making things too clear...

What I'm proposing/exploring IS the paradigm!

As a studio owner, I am working towards understanding what the label of the future NEEDS to look like and be... that and if I can begin to create what that new paradigm is... to start creating it NOW!

I hear ya' loud and clear!!!:grin:

Bob, do we need to build excitement first?

[Bob Olhsson]

Labels can only fan the flames by adding money. The main thing they do is retail relations and collecting money. Their whole reson for existing has changed dramatically.

In the future we may see management companies doing almost all of the investment rather than labels. I've posted a few links to articles about this that I think are must reading for everybody.

[shikawkee]

Labels can only fan the flames by adding money. The main thing they do is retail relations and collecting money. Their whole reason for existing has changed dramatically.

In the future we may see management companies doing almost all of the investment rather than labels. I've posted a few links to articles about this that I think are must reading for everybody.

Yeah, from my perspective publishers and management companies are the minor leagues for the majors now.

Labels are just banks. They lend you money and take a huge cut (vs. what a regular bank would reasonably take). That's why the model has to be remade and it's in our hands.

Motown=Brilliant, motivated leaders, great talent, a machine to groom that talent, great arrangers and musicians to bring the songs and talent to life and great, smart, creative sales people to bring it to the masses.

It can be done again but there are no shortcuts.
Lots of folks want to be somebody but they don't
necessarily want to do the groundwork to BECOME somebody.

[Azraphael]

As an independant musician, I'm definitely all for anything that breaks the norm while at the same time does something good for the music scene, be it locally or internationally.

There's a ton of good ideas in this thread, but the common theme seems to be not knowing where to begin. I'm in a similar situation with my band right now, and I'd love to get some feedback from the group here, if you can spare the time.

Last summer, we released a 4 song demo EP, and pressed 500 copies of it. We're down to our last 10 or so, and we're quite happy that we've actually gotten them into people's hands. Like many, I have boxes of extra copies of releases from now defunct bands I was in, so it's nice to have run out of this one. Sure, 500 isn't any kind of an Earth shattering number, but we're still happy.

Anyway, we're finding lately that it's the same people coming out to our shows. It's great to see them there, and there's a few new faces at each show, but by and large it's the same general group. In other words, like so many other original indie bands out there, we desperately need to build our following, and start getting complete strangers out to the shows, instead of friends and friends-of-friends, which has been the case so far.

Our shows are always well received, and new people that do come out invariably come out again, and often bring a friend or two. I know that's the basis of starting a following, but I can't help but think that there's got to be a better, more effective, faster ways to do it.

We think there are 3 core things that can help, though we're honestly not sure where to focus our efforts. First is having great songs, well performed and an entertaining live show. Second is publicity to get people out to the shows. Third is having something people can take away with them (i.e. merch, CDs, etc.) to remember the band and hopefully generate more buzz.

So, with 10 CDs and no merch, we're seriously lacking on the having something for people to take away with them front. This led us to think that recording again is our best bet, and we've pursued that seriously for a few weeks, trying to line up a producer, etc. to make sure that we'd be putting out a commericial quality release, instead of another demo. However, is it worth the money for us to record again if it's just going to the same core group of people? Is that the right method to help start building the fan base?

Another idea is actual publicity, possibly with professional help on this front. Radio, TV, postering, etc... anything we can do to get the name out there. If well done, that can put more people at the shows, where we dazzle them with our live musical prowess and earn them as fans. However, is this worth doing if we don't have something for these new fans to take away with them? Does it matter if we impress them if they can't remember the name Blind Fish 2 weeks after the show?

I know that for us (the members of the band), we'll actively seek out bands we like when we see them live. But I think that we're the exception, being part of the local music scene. I don't think your average person wants to work too hard to get to know a new band... they need some sort of immediate gratification, something to take away, otherwise we're just a faint memory months down the road.

Alas, all these things take time and money, and we don't have a limitless supply of either. To be honest, I'm not sure we can financially afford to do more than 1 of these things full tilt. Basically, it seems like we can spend our money on either recording/releasing, merch, or publicity. And we've got no idea what the best plan of attack is.

So should we record a great disk and promote that through live shows? Spend the money on other merch so people have something to take home with them? Hire a publicist to help get our name out there?

It seems that so much of this is circular, and we're spinning ourselves dizzy at the moment. We believe in our songs and our performances, and truly think we have something artistic to offer that people enjoy. We just need to get more people exposed to it.

If you've made it this far, I certainly appreciate it. I didn't mean to be quite this long winded. I know this is slightly off topic for this thread, but it seems to me that a lot of what's being discussed is directly related to the situation I find myself in. So, consider us a case study, if you like.

Any thoughts on how we, given our situation, can start to really generate a buzz and a following would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Dave

[Cosmic Pig]

Heh... " (after all we do 90% original music, you know, because we're not nearly talented enough musicians to play covers)"

And... "Ed's goal, like mine, is mining mature audiences as we're both, um, mature (and by that I mean old'r)"

See there's where we diverged and took different routes down this thread. My experiences all involve younger heavy bands, and that's what I was talking about. The 17-25 yr old crowd. We have 10 or 15 venues in town here that put 3-4 bands on a night and they get 60% of the door, which works out to about 40$ for the whole band if they're lucky. My kid and a few customers are doing that stuff so I've been to a few of them, and I'me here to tell ya, there's nothing quite like a 17 year old with a Marshall stack his parents just bought him. I made the mistake of running sound for a show once and omigod.

Anyway... What you're talking about is a decent enough idea. I've heard it tried several times in various different music markets usually to no avail because it wasn't done properly. Usually because it needs advertising and owners willing to go the distance before they see a profit. Put a bunch of musicians together to organize something like this and they think its about the music, but it's not, and that's where things start to go off the rails.

It's about advertising and business first, then it's about music. So what you invariably wind up with is crappy original bands with good sales skills running the project and you blow the whole concept when the sales monsters want in. They'll undermine it if they don't get in too.

The cliques formed around shitty players who lock up a room with their sales skills are a fucking pain in the ass, and I think you'll find the same shit happens in all markets and styles. What you need is one room locked into quality first, who's blowing who second. Then add more rooms using the success of the first room. But i don't know of any owners who are smart enough to do that. Sales monster/hack players are pretty good at what they do.

Back in the day the agents did that weeding because they all had sales skills and the rooms went by the ring off at the end of the night. Anyways... I'm just raving now, but really, good luck with it all. You'll have to guard the territory like a pitbull. It's business. That's the reason booking agents would sign bands and rooms into a contract, so they weren't constantly fighting off the competition.

Cos.

[Bob Olhsson]

...There's a ton of good ideas in this thread, but the common theme seems to be not knowing where to begin. ...Where you begin is by throwing an absolutely unforgetable party for your friends and make it so good that there's no way they'll pass up the next one!

Certainly many have ridden on the coat tails and used the infrastructure created by others but at this point, that stuff is gone. I believe popular music needs to start all over from the beginning which is in our living rooms.

[rockdart]

I've been trying to talk the band mates into hiring "The Bod Squad" - yeah, hottie chicks that will do promotions for you at venues. If there was a way to get them to buy into the "We'll give you X% of what you sell".... it'd be a lot easier to move things.

But... that's not really building a scene that can become self supporting.

I'd love to be able to have them work the food court area in a mall on a Saturday afternoon though and sit at a table and watch it go down with a Sharpie in my hand and a smile on my face.

[Bob Olhsson]

Why not just play in the food court?

Tim Sweeney suggests that bands stick a couple songs on a cassette and hand them to people at the mall while inviting them to tonight's show. The idea is that they'll check it out on their way home in the car anf show up if they like what they hear.

[rockdart]

yeah - the audio flyer is a great idea. With CD's you can put other content on as well... so, we're looking into that.

Play the food court?

Our music is a bit too scary for parents and we wouldn't know where to plug in. It'd be more fun to subvert via the covert...

They'd hear us at the other end though. Pretty clearly.

[dumbass]

Yeah, from my perspective publishers and management companies are the minor leagues for the majors now.

True enough! But it won't be that way for long... I don't see this model being able to support the industry for much longer.

I'm beginning to think that maybe the management comapny IS the "label of the future".

Labels are just banks. They lend you money and take a huge cut (vs. what a regular bank would reasonably take). That's why the model has to be remade and it's in our hands.

AMEN!

Motown=Brilliant, motivated leaders, great talent, a machine to groom that talent, great arrangers and musicians to bring the songs and talent to life and great, smart, creative sales people to bring it to the masses.

It can be done again but there are no shortcuts.
Lots of folks want to be somebody but they don't
necessarily want to do the groundwork to BECOME somebody.

I for one am working on changing the paradigm... to what it needs to be, and must be; fair to tall of the investors... the musicians who create it, the engineers who track, mix and master it, the promoters, the venues, the distributors and most importantly... the fans.

[dumbass]

Any thoughts on how we, given our situation, can start to really generate a buzz and a following would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Dave

Dave,

I feel your pain... been there quite a few times m'self bro!

Like I said earlier... there is a real need to have some sort of instant gratification in society as a whole. If fans find out that there isn't any "trinket" to remember you by... they'd just as soon pack it up and go home... and will.

Obviously, having a "new" CD is always good, but if you have to walk into a venue sans anything, let it be your CD... You gotta' do the merch thing at some level. You can always get the fans' email addresses for the stuff you are out of.

I worked with one band for awhile that was in the middle of their "next" release. They offered a 1/2 price CD if you bought 3 T-Shirts and signed up for the mailing list.

When the CD was finally released, they notified the fan-base and announced a reminder of the T-Shirt deal... Last I heard, there was something like 4 people who "took advantage" of the reduced CD price. Everyone else paid full price.

[Azraphael]

Dumbass,

Thanks for the thoughts! I think you have a point re: the CD. Considering we're looking at far more money to make a new CD than we would be for a reasonable selection of merch, I think you might be onto something. I guess the other alternative (which we hadn't thought of) would be to re-run the pressing of the current demo EP. Hell of a lot cheaper than recording anew, and still puts some music in people's hands, at least.

In terms of merch, there's the obvious t-shirts, hats, hoodies, stickers and buttons... anyone have any other creative ideas? One that we might use is getting custom sleeves printed for packs of gum. Leave them on the table, and people will take it away because it's gum... and each time they have a piece, it reminds tehm of Blind Fish.

What other creative and innovate ideas are out there? I'm sure you folks have tons, and I fully intend to steal as many as possible. :)

Cheers,

Dave

[Swafford]

I think before you can decide what your going to do, you need to define where you want to go. Consider the CD as an investment, not as a cashflow generator. If your the main songwriter, then you need to make sure your goals are the same as the bands. Once you do that, I've see three basic models of working towards some kind of success or realization that it's never going anywhere;

1 - the quick hit. In the last 5 years, there are a number of bands from this area that have at one time or another found themselves with a major league deal. July For Kings and Pay The Girl/Frickin' A (or what ever they call themselves these days) are two good examples of bands that got label deals without much work. They also contracted themselves into oblivion. Fuck that noise. That's a pussys game.

2 - make a CD. Hit the road. Play your fucking ass off in every shit hole you can find till you reach a critical mass and someone notices or you get lucky and someone whose in your crowd can help you along or you get fast with some other band that does one of those things and takes you on their coat tails or, more then likely, the band just fucking implodes. Out in the hinderlands you'll find out whose in it for the long haul and whose gonna let their girl/boyfriend decide what their life is going to look like. From this area this would include the Afghan Whigs, Ass Ponys, Over The Rhine, Guided By Voices, Brainiac, and more currently, the Greenhornes, Heartless Bastards and Pearlene. What each of these bands has in common is they financed a CD themselves, made sure it was worthy, got a van and played every shit hole from NYC to Seattle, Detroit to Houston. They're great bands with great records (the new buffalo Killers CD is fantastic) not because some wiz made them sound great (though that helps), but because they were great to begin with. Current gas prices makes this a hard row to hoe, but I know a few bands from Cinci that are still working this way with some success (ie not losing their shirts) American Hardcore, 500 Miles To Memphis and The Stapletons. Rockin' live sets is the door. Perseverence is the key.

3 - make a great CD, get reviews and hire a reputable radio promoter and publicist to work it. A reputable person in these fields is one who'll only work your CD because they believe in it, not because you have 5k to give them. If they just do it for the cash, then don't bother. Bands who've taken approach locally who have met with some success this way - The Hiders (long rotation on several high profile AAA noncommercial radio stations that yielded a good radio promoter who is working their record to the rest of the country), Kim Taylor (currently being heard on World Cafe), The Stapletons just hired Tinderbox to work their newest to college radio. Honest, a CD like this is almost always a way to get somewhere else, a calling card, an introduction and door opener. If you sell enough to make your money back, great, If you can't, well, in the US, that's called a "write off".

I think, based on your website, your a candidate for number 2. Get the band on the same page. Be prepared to go into debt. Make a great CD and TShirts. Make friends, network, shmooze, find out who the bands are that are like yours who might be at the next level you need to achieve. Find out who manages them, where they're playing, what label they are on, whose playing thier music. Get out of your hometown. And memorize this nugget my old friend Greg Duli said to me a thousand years ago when the Whigs were still on Sub Pop, Sub Pop was a real Indie, and punk rock and pop were never used in the same sentence (without getting punched in the face), when someone opens the door for you, be prepared to walk through it.





Oh yeah, there is a 4th way. This is the Jeff Roberson way. Music is like shitting. Take a shit. Get it out. Doesn't matter who's paying attention, it's just to uncomfortable to hold it in. Yeah, I'm a real fucking artist.

[Bob Olhsson]

The number one approach has frequently involved kickbacks of front money from a manager or lawyer to somebody they know at a label. A "deal" that was too easy to get is always suspicious and generally results in the artist wasting several years of their life for nothing.

The second way is always the path of choice however you need to be smart about it. In most cases this means taking great care that you remain in control and turn down gigs that don't work for your fans because the venue is too big for your fanbase or too soon after your last gig to expect most of your fans to come out. One of the biggest secrets of success I've heard over and over is never being afraid to say no. If you have anything happening at all, you can expect many offers that need to be rejected.

Number 3 is for people who already have number two working for them.

[leester]

Oh yeah, there is a 4th way. This is the Jeff Roberson way. Music is like shitting. Take a shit. Get it out. Doesn't matter who's paying attention, it's just to uncomfortable to hold it in. Yeah, I'm a real fucking artist.

Heh... we still gotta hook up. I think I'm gonna print that one out for framing.


mees

[magicchord]

Heh... we still gotta hook up. I think I'm gonna print that one out for framing.


mees

Leester, you mean you and swafford don't know each other? I thought you might even have been related...

[Swafford]

Number 3 is for people who already have number two working for them.

Well, yes and no. I can understand why it would be a natural move for a band that tours successfully all the time (and in my world, successful is not losing money). However, there are a number of niche artist that make successful CD's, and get decent radio play and press exposure without extensive touring. Almost all have been around the block a few times, put out CD's already that were well received and know where the secret levers are regardless of whether they have yet to pull the levers in the right sequence. Lot's of times they've hooked up with the right label (Shake It Records is a perfect example of a great niche label whose artists sell "well" with very limited touring.) Again, keep in mind that I'm a bottom feeder, so my expectations can very greatly from yours (not yours, necessarily Bob, but yours as in any reader). David Wolfenburger, Kim Taylor, Jake Speed, Hogscraper, Wussy are all Cincinnati acts that put out CD's that are well received, make money, get some non-commercial radio play (NPR, community or college) and decent enough press to fuel the next release. I think this approach requires, really may demand, that you look at making music as a life's work. Really, why take all the shit if it isn't a biological imperative?

[Swafford]

Heh... we still gotta hook up. I think I'm gonna print that one out for framing.


mees

Well, you know how to find me. We just finished a 5 week stint at the Southgate house, but are going to probably take December off, maybe do one show at the Courtyard Cafe, my new 'project' in the 'ghetto'. Open mic (or freak show depending on your POV) at the Northside Tavern this Sunday....I'm your foul mouth host!

[dumbass]

In terms of merch, there's the obvious t-shirts, hats, hoodies, stickers and buttons... anyone have any other creative ideas? One that we might use is getting custom sleeves printed for packs of gum. Leave them on the table, and people will take it away because it's gum... and each time they have a piece, it reminds tehm of Blind Fish.

What other creative and innovate ideas are out there? I'm sure you folks have tons, and I fully intend to steal as many as possible. :)

Dave,

There's Beer Huggies, Totes, Jackets, etc... Try searching for "Promotional Items"... LOTS of stuff and service providers to choose from!

One thing I did for a band was print some "official" backstage tour passes for a band. I made sure I put the words "Not Valid At Any Venue" on them. The intent was to get the band to autograph the pass when it was purchased.

I made em' about half the normal size. I laminated them and put a cheap lanyard on em. The band sold them like hotcakes in a few different places.

The concept was a music industry "trading card". Maybe it'll catch on... Wouldn't it be slick to eventually see these things on eBay? or hear fans at gigs... "Hey, I'll trade you a Blind Fish for 2 Jimmy Buffet's!"

There's a local singer/songwriter that actually takes a promotional item catalog to shows. People (especially women) will spend up to 30 minutes shopping in the catalog for gift items. The whole time, they end up buying an extra CD, another key-tag, t-shirt, etc.

Another thing he did was to work with one of the promo companies to get an online version. They evidently gave him all of the code and "back office" stuff. So all he had to do was set up the eCommerce side and he was off and running.

When they order out of the catalog or online, he puts the buyer on the email/fan list.

Which brings up another interesting subject... email lists.

Has anyone had much success with a particular style of email list? e.g. mass email of dates and events vs newsletter style (pdf) vs blogging vs listserve?

I wonder if a particular style is more successful with a demographic, or if it's more closely related to music genre??

[Bob Olhsson]

...there are a number of niche artist that make successful CD's, and get decent radio play and press exposure without extensive touring....My experience has been that these folks could generally fill a house with dedicated fans before they released their first successful CDs. This was definitely the case with Hearts of Space Records which was very much a niche that one would never expect live performances to be driving.

We're all enchanted with the idea that we can make a recording that "makes it all happen" for us however when you look closely, performing live seems to always be an integral part of the equation for success. When we aren't part of a niche artist's fanbase it's easy to assume their recording created the fanbase.

[shikawkee]

I have an idea, actually an idea Bob and I have been cultivating for a while called "The Misfit Toyz". Idea being that a lot of music lives outside of the purview of MTV and VH1, et al. So, like Bob says, if we can get a diverse group of performers who tour and collectively take turns helping each other out and also add other acts regionally as we go (those acts that may not be able to afford to travel much) this thing can get people and executives alike excited. THEN you have a MOVEMENT.

You can fill in the numbers on your own contract at that point.
Promise.

[Swafford]

My experience has been that these folks could generally fill a house with dedicated fans before they released their first successful CDs. This was definitely the case with Hearts of Space Records which was very much a niche that one would never expect live performances to be driving.

We're all enchanted with the idea that we can make a recording that "makes it all happen" for us however when you look closely, performing live seems to always be an integral part of the equation for success. When we aren't part of a niche artist's fanbase it's easy to assume their recording created the fanbase.

I'm certainly not going to deny this happens the way you describe. In fact, it may be the dominant paradigm for breaking new bands. Dunno. All I know is my town, and I know it very well.

There is nothing really enchanting about recognizing that local fans are fickle and that most times it requires outside sources to validate something for them. I've seen it happen time and time and time again from the Afghan Whigs to Guided By Vocies to the Greenhornes to the Hiders and Wussy. There's nothing particularly bewitching about the phenomena, in fact, quite the opposite, it's frustrating and sad.

[shikawkee]

I'm certainly not going to deny this happens the way you describe. In fact, it may be the dominant paradigm for breaking new bands. Dunno. All I know is my town, and I know it very well.

There is nothing really enchanting about recognizing that local fans are fickle and that most times it requires outside sources to validate something for them. I've seen it happen time and time and time again from the Afghan Whigs to Guided By Vocies to the Greenhornes to the Hiders and Wussy. There's nothing particularly bewitching about the phenomena, in fact, quite the opposite, it's frustrating and sad.

Yup, I hear ya' buddy.
Maybe all the more reason for those
local bands to reach out an co-bill with
out-of-town acts?

[Swafford]

I dunno. Used to be, out of town acts were a sort of novelty and did OK regardless of who they were. With the glut of acts, that novelty is gone. It certainly helps if they make return visits. I see that with acts that I support from out of town, if they maintain email lists, they usually see return faces at thier next show.

[Swafford]

Which brings up another interesting subject... email lists.

Has anyone had much success with a particular style of email list? e.g. mass email of dates and events vs newsletter style (pdf) vs blogging vs listserve?

I wonder if a particular style is more successful with a demographic, or if it's more closely related to music genre??

Depends. From bands that have a great writing style - thinking of the Hangdogs here and matt's monthly newsletter, fucking hiliarious, the newsletter works great. Mostly using a mail program is the way to go, I think. Enables your list to subscribe and unsubscribe, automates your mail. Collecting emails at your shows is probably the single best tool for promotion that doesn't cost you anything, regardless of genre. Having said that, I haven;t done it in years. God I'm a lazy ass.

[nomad]

There is nothing really enchanting about recognizing that local fans are fickle and that most times it requires outside sources to validate something for them. I've seen it happen time and time and time again from the Afghan Whigs to Guided By Vocies to the Greenhornes to the Hiders and Wussy. There's nothing particularly bewitching about the phenomena, in fact, quite the opposite, it's frustrating and sad.


Dude.

Get a grip. Check your history books. 2,000 fuckin' years of precedent for this.

Even Christ had to tour to fill seats. At home he was still 'that carpenter guy' riding around on a donkey.

[Swafford]

Dude.

Get a grip. Check your history books. 2,000 fuckin' years of precedent for this.

Even Christ had to tour to fill seats. At home he was still 'that carpenter guy' riding around on a donkey.

Thanks for the tip. Where does one find this 'grip'?

Christ? That shits all made up.

[nomad]

Thanks for the tip. Where does one find this 'grip'?

Christ? That shits all made up.


Grip...grip. Right. Uh, no clue. Sorry.


Christ. The world's first rock star. For real. Fanatical armies of fans 2,000 years later. Surpassed in popularity only by the Beatles. And they crucified Lennon just for pointing it out.

Odd world we live in.

[Bob Olhsson]

I agree about "the grass is always greener" syndrome.

Still one big reason out-of-towners do better is that local fans perceive that they can see a local artist anytime so there is no need to go out of their way to make a show. Unfortunately this frequently leads to almost never getting around to it. We all do this.

This is known as overexposure, the gigs are no longer special. The only way you can control it is by limiting how frequently each fan hears about a gig. In other words, playing hard to get. One method I've seen work is using different band names. Another is smaller venues with very limited publicity for each.

[dumbass]

This is known as overexposure, the gigs are no longer special. The only way you can control it is by limiting how frequently each fan hears about a gig. In other words, playing hard to get. One method I've seen work is using different band names. Another is smaller venues with very limited publicity for each.

I can't agree more. (Not that I have any idea what the fuck I'm taking about) But it sure as heck happened to virtually every band I've been in.

One thing I thought about in limiting your ability to "wear out your welcome"... I'll try to make some sense, tho I'm sure I'll get it all convoluted...

Week 1 - Play a gig at "home" club/bar/venue
Week 2 - Play a gig 20 miles east of home
Week 3 - Play a gig 20 miles north of home
Week 4 - Play a gig 20 miles west of home
Week 5 - Play a gig 20 miles south of home
Week 6 - Play a gig at home
Week 7 - Play a gig 40 miles east of home
Week 8 - Play a gig 40 miles north of home
Week 9 - Play a gig 40 miles west of home
Week 10 - Play a gig 40 miles south of home
Week 11 - Play a gig at home
Week 12 - Play a gig 60 miles east of home
Week 13 - Play a gig 60 miles north of home
Week 14 - Play a gig 60 miles west of home
Week 15 - Play a gig 60 miles south of home

Once you find a maximum travel limit that you're comfortable with, start the cycle over again and repeat the venues.

Each cycle, move the spiral further and further from your "home" venue.

In the course of 24 months, you should have several dozen venues that you only visit twice or three times a year... including your "home" venue!

The exclusivity will make the gig's that much more desirable for your fans to "need" to go... The band is "on tour"... and the monotony of sameness of the venues isn't there.

Any taker's on this one?

[Bob Olhsson]

I watched the whole rock industry develop right under my nose while I was working at Motown. Radio playing album cuts began in Detroit. A Detroit promoter named Russ Gibb jumped right on Chet Helms' ballroom idea almost immediately and started bringing in the same acts.

In California I spent ten years working for Quicksilver Messenger Service and occasionally the Dead. I got to hear their stories without all of the showbiz spin. Another close friend of mine led one of the "other" bands at the Caravan in Liverpool as well as working as a sideman for many of the first generation British rockers.

What I'm trying to do is synthesize what each of these had in common since I had the dumb luck to be in the position to ask somebody who was there what had happened. In each case it was a tiny local venue with artists having an intense following that exploded.

[Bob Olhsson]

I want to bump this up and look for shared ideas about how to pull off not overexposing yourself. This is the biggest problem with the net.

Ten minutes of fame isn't long enough to pay the bills!

[Bob Olhsson]

Do we call this a rebump?

[radiationroom]

Hi everybody! I'm going to bump up this thread and raise the volume a notch or two. Apoligies for not having time to read each and every comment here, since I was supposed to be in bed over an hour ago.

As someone who made the mistake of going into the nightclub business as an owner/partner who doubled as a featured DJ one night a week along with managing the place, I know LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of things about running a nightclub that does BOTH DJ and live acts. Please by all means tap me for information when the subject of nightclubs come up since I have been there.... ....and my eyes are still bloodshot from all of those years---> :icon_eek:

http://www.radiationroom.com/contact.htm

Right now I have three articles on my website that are pertinent to this discussion. Go read them and comment on them here.

"So You Want To Be A Star....NOW REALLY?" is a direct discussion of what is expected of a performer/act/band from a nightclub owner's perspective - http://www.radiationroom.com/rrs/so-you-want-to-be-a-star/ - Pay close attention to the paragraph where I talk about certain bands who like to destroy equipment, especially items that belong to someone else. This kind of abuse has convinced many a bar owner to drop live acts, especially those of the "hard & heavy" variety. Plus musicians who have short tempers and get into fights when they should be performing hurts the cause as well. I have broken up more fights between performers and audience members than I wish to remember.

"How To Deal With Spec Rider Abuse" - If you want to see something else that pisses venue owners off, get ahold of the spec riders that some alt-rock acts send along with performance contracts. One band insisted on my buying them a case of Similac and a case of motor oil, which were spewn around the green room after the gig, leaving a major mess for my crew to clean up. Apparently, they have done this to others as well, as described in the email quoted in my article - http://radiationroom.com/rrs/specriderabuse.htm

Third and VERY IMPORTANT is FIRE SAFETY AND CODES ISSUES!!! - http://www.radiationroom.com/rrs/fire.htm - I can not overstress the importance of paying attention to safety issues, which are far too often ignored by various people in the venue and performance chains. Fire inspectors and insurance adjustors have a very short temper when it comes to codes non-compliance. I have seen first hand competiting nightclubs go out of business over the years because the owner pissed off an inspector, then the inspector decides to wait six months before "he is able to get back in and re-inspect" before issuing an occupancy license. (And the occupancy license is required before the insurance underwriter will issue a policy, which is legally required before opening in many juristicions.) Safety is RULE NUMBER ONE in any busines.

Something else that needs to be discussed in any forum where the business motives of the typical club/venue owner is talked about is LIABILITY INSURANCE. In my area, one can not stage a firehall show without it, and the rising insurance premiums is ultimately what forced me out of the concert promotion biz in 1998. In order to stage a show in certain fire hall venues, one needs a $20,000.00-USD bond placed in escrow before the underwriter will write you a policy. And a policy for ONE NIGHT can cost upwards of $5K-USD. So that's twenty-five grand right off the top that you can't use to promote/produce the show, and five grand off the top that you need to recoup before anyone/anything else gets paid. Yes you can always rent a hotel ballroom, but many hotels will balk at the idea of.....WHAT? You're going to have WHAT KIND OF MUSIC??? Sorry, no mosh pits in our establishment!

So when you factor in insurance, along with rent and occupancy requirements, you'll see that there is a multitude of reasons beyond the obvious as to why the music support structure was destroyed and what we are up against in rebuilding it.

Thanks for listening - Peter Carli

[nobby]

Right now I have three articles on my website that are pertinent to this discussion. Go read them and comment on them here.


What do you mean you aren't providing hookers?! :Mad:

I suppose we have to bring our own crack, too! :Mad:

Seriously, great articles at your site, Peter, thanks for sharing :Thumbsup:

I have to say that baby formula and motor oil in the green room are new to me, as is pissing on a speaker box. Then again, I'm not into the local punk scene. I did go to a small club in which the urinals had been ripped from the men's room wall, and the partition had been removed from around the toilet.

When the Who destroyed their gear out of frustration in '64 (or whatever) it garnered them some much needed (at that time) notoriety, but it established an unfortunate precedent for bands to follow. Actually, Jerry Lee Lewis burned a piano once before that, but I digress.

When the Who or Hendrix destroyed their gear 40 years ago, one can debate whether it was a some sort of statement or publicity strategy at that time, but to do it at this point in time to me is just utterly banal.

And destroying other people's property is just senseless vandalism.

If someone wants to burn their own bridges, that's one thing, but to ruin things for others is despicable.

[nobby]

I agree about "the grass is always greener" syndrome.

Still one big reason out-of-towners do better is that local fans perceive that they can see a local artist anytime so there is no need to go out of their way to make a show.

Great point. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, as long as you aren't gone so long ppl forget about you.

This is known as overexposure, the gigs are no longer special. The only way you can control it is by limiting how frequently each fan hears about a gig. In other words, playing hard to get. One method I've seen work is using different band names. Another is smaller venues with very limited publicity for each.
"smaller venues with very limited publicity for each" sounds like a viable strategy, and especially applicable since bands/artists starting out can't usually play at larger venues anyway.

I think Dumbass' regional strategy is excellent also.

Bob, could you clarify the concept of using different band names? At first blush that seems a bit counterintuitive and a bit awkward. I can see not wanting to show up in the local trade mags and online gig calendars as playing too many gigs in the same area within a short time frame, but you also want to spread the name of the act.

And what do you say at the gig? "We're not really [A], we're [B]". And what of fans who go to a venue to hear a band they've never heard before [B] and it's the band they heard the night before [A]?

It seems that could be a bit awkward.

[eagan]

And what of fans who go to a venue to hear a band they've never heard before [B] and it's the band they heard the night before [A]?

It seems that could be a bit awkward.


Especially when somebody in the crowd is overheard saying something like "you know, the band I heard last night wasn't bad, but these guys suck!".


JLE

[radiationroom]

Seriously, great articles at your site, Peter, thanks for sharing :Thumbsup:

Thanks. If only I knew this stuff BEFORE I went into the nightclub biz.

I have to say that baby formula and motor oil in the green room are new to me,

It is just one example of bands trying to "see what they can get away with". The list of attempted spec rider abuse is as long as there are punk, metal, and "hard & heavy" bands.

Hell, even Adrian Belew had a few things on his spec rider that I thought were a bit extravagant, but one of my competitors outbid me for that show, so it was his problem and not mine.

as is pissing on a speaker box.

Three of my MD-421s along with a 57 were destroyed that night. To make matters worse, the monitor wedge was a rental, and I wound up eating that out of my own pocket. My fourth MD-421 which miraculously survived that night, has a dent in it's windscreen where it either hit something or was hit by something. And that was by no means the only incident where a punk/alt/metal band destroyed something which was either the Fenix Nightclub's property, a sound contractor's or rental house's property, or my own personal property. For some reason, metal punkers just love to step on other people's microphones and crush them.

After reading my "Star" article, the reasons why I am quite hostile to the "Hard & Heavy" scene at the wholesale level should be quite obvious. Call me an old fart, but you can give me Chris Botti or Dianne Reeves any day of the week. http://messageboard.tapeop.com/images/smiles/icon_cooljazzman.gif

Then again, I'm not into the local punk scene.

AMEN BROTHER!!! Unfortunately, it's not just the punk bands that are destructive. Many many so called "active rock" acts (to use Arbitron's term for the radio format that plays hard & heavy music) have a history of destroying stage equipment. Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Voo-Doo Glow Skulls, and The Nine Inch Nails are four such examples. Especially the Nine Inch Nails - destroying stuff seems to be the point of their whole show.

When the Who or Hendrix destroyed their gear 40 years ago, one can debate whether it was a some sort of statement or publicity strategy at that time, but to do it at this point in time to me is just utterly banal.

Then again, some might say that the majority of the music coming out today is utterly banal. I would happen to agree with them. Think about this: Ike Turner is credited with recording the first recording with a "fuzzbox" in 1951. That's more than a half-century ago.

If someone wants to burn their own bridges, that's one thing, but to ruin things for others is despicable.

But inexperienced and/or ignorant performers might not think of those things. :Mad:

PS: One of my mixes is airing on XM right now! Having one's name up in lights, even if the "lights" are a three inch radio display, is still a thrill after all these years.... :-)

http://www.radiationroom.com/images/pcxmskyfi.jpg

[Bob Olhsson]

Peter, I just tuned you in.

Kind of amazing how much better your vinyl sounds than your neighboring dance channels.

This is a 64 bit windoze media 9.1 stream sounding better than most CDs. You've got peaks 16 dB above average and that's after whatever the Omina broadcast processing is doing to your show.

And it sounds stupid good when I crank it up on the big speakers. Food for lots of thought...

[radiationroom]

Peter, I just tuned you in.

Thank You for your kind feedback! My head is swelling. :Redface:

Kind of amazing how much better your vinyl sounds than your neighboring dance channels.

Much of what is played on "BPM" XM81 and "The System" XM82 are unlistenable IMO. Both are loaded with examples of how brickwall mastering destroys music. Much of the music on XM81 has lots of synth generated/filtered sawtooth and triangle waveforms and brickwalling rips those tracks to shreds. Based on my experience with Promo Only (http://www.promoonly.com) programming CDs, my bet that the bad sound quality is the result of the original disc mastering, and XM's engineering team tries to make the best of it.

It is AMAZING just how good the XM service sounds overall considering the amount of data rate reduction that goes on before it comes back out the speakers. The people who do XM's engineering have good ears.

This is a 64 bit windoze media 9.1 stream sounding better than most CDs. You've got peaks 16 dB above average and that's after whatever the Omina broadcast processing is doing to your show.

Coming from you I take that as a sign that I'm doing something right for a change! The only problem I have is when the only source for a specific song is a brickwalled CD, then I have to back the track off 6dB to as much as 18dB in some cases to keep the level even. And lacking a Dourough precision metering system makes gain reduction of brickwalled tracks a bit tricky since they tend to sound louder than average (to my ears) due to the fact that brickwalled tracks are often times distorted as well. (The reissue of the Brothers Johnson "Stomp" on Uni's 20th Century Masters series is one such example. Talk about total destruction.) :Mad:

Mixing shows for college stations running misadjusted Volumax-era processors in the 1990s taught me LOTS about the need to watch one's level and NEVER to take for granted that a station's processor will work as it's supposed to!

Now if we can get it through to everyone that brickwalling is KILLING their tracks, maybe just maybe....then again....TC Electronic and Waves will loose marketshare. CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE? :Mad: Evil!

And it sounds stupid good when I crank it up on the big speakers. Food for lots of thought...

Thank you!

FYI Here is my signal chain for the majority of what you hear on the XM. Pro-Ject "Expression II" turntable w/Grado "Red" pick-up ---> Peavey 9072 DJ mixer (used for an RIAA preamp) ---> Presonus Central Station (passive signal router) ----> Digi-001 or Digi-003 (depending on which box was in use at the time of the transfer).

All current segments edited in ProTools 7.3 - EDITED AT 24 BITS prior to bounce. Yes, there is a major difference between 16 bits and 24 bits when crossfades and DSP are going on, even with floating point processing. Nothing worse than having system clipping and not knowing if it's the converters or the digital mix bus that is the source of the distortion. 24 bit session depth solves all of those problems. Delivered as a 320 constant rate MP3 because for some reason their automation system is allergic to .bwf files.

Neat trick using a straight editor and making it sound like a live DJ mix without the needs for so-called "DJ Software"! HUH!?! :D