How to convince people copying music is wrong

[lebouche]

I know we have often discussed the matter of music being free and our general opposition to that.
I'\m having trouble convinceing friends and family that it is wrong to copy music.
Sister 'can you copy me some tunes on to my ipod'
Brother 'no I think it's stealing and I can't have a career in music if other people decide it's right to steal etc.' The DRM discussion got me thinking.


'don't be silly its just like lending me your bike'

'no, because then I would be without my bike and need to buy another or get mine back'

I've pondered saying OK you can have a few songs if you promise to go and buy a few albums a month from the artists you most like....but thats like saying only the most successful should get paid.

How do we convince the community... my girlfriend doesn't think its wrong to copy music despite numerous discussions.
Her friend came over for dinner the other night and asked if I had any music I could bluetooth to her phone. We had the 'it's stealing' conversation and I get looked at like an alien.

Maybe we need to halt all non physical sales.... a music indusrty strike....Maybe all sales. We in the recording business musicians engineers and producers are not going to release any music to the public until they understand we need to get paid. The labels would never go along with this and most of us cannot afford to take a year out....I'm just thinking the music community could fast forward the way things are going and show the world what it would be like to have no professionally made music.

[weedywet]

go to their places of business and inquire as to how you get your free goods or services from them.


tell them if you like it, you'll be back to purchase more.

If you don't, tell them it's their 'fault' for not making a product you think is worth buying.

[Bob Olhsson]

It's hard to fight a multi-million dollar PR campaign telling people its ok to copy recordings and the record industry is the personification of evil.

Myself, I think the personal computing industry is the personification of evil. Think about it, an industry that virtually never pays dividends with the only benefit to their investors being the ability to sell one's stock to somebody else who figures they'll be able to unload it on the next sucker for even more money.

What the hell kind of a "business model" is that?

It makes record labels look like saints...

[bunnerabb]

Boy, that aint no shit.

It's called "the greater fool" theory.

So, how long is all of this "content" going to be free?

The e-mail services?

All this happy shit with Google ads?

I'm going to tell you a very big secret about the internet.

There's nothing here.

It's just a big, fucking catalogue.

It's a library with a teletype and a dodgy payphone.

Data... ya see, is not a product.

And it never will be.

[Swafford]

Myself, I think the personal computing industry is the personification of evil. Think about it, an industry that virtually never pays dividends with the only benefit to their investors being the ability to sell one's stock to somebody else who figures they'll be able to unload it on the next sucker for even more money.

What the hell kind of a "business model" is that?

It makes record labels look like saints...

That sounds like a lot of publicly traded companies to me and doesn't sound that much different then people who trade in vintage guitars, amps and mics or sell insurance.

You can't convince people that stealing music is wrong with "how about if I steal from you" logic. They aren't stealing it from you, you don't own it, they're stealing it from someone else, you are nothing but a potential accessory to the theft. Intellectual property is an abstract concept that many smart, forward thinking 9-5 people have a hard time getting their head around. They've never created something they intended to sell, let alone something that is easily replicated and distributed. I have this conversation every rehearsal with the cover band I'm playing guitar with. I'm the ONLY ONE of 5 who paid for my downloads to the set list. They think I'm a fucking freak of nature for not only downloading it, but refusing to give it to them.

So how do you convince people staling intellectual property right is wrong? Dunno. Not convinced you have to.

[Swafford]

Data... ya see, is not a product.

And it never will be.

Yeah, it is, and it has been for a while.

[bunnerabb]

Is it?

Ask Syncrosoft.

Anything you can losslessly replicate in a bedroom sounds more like.. um, data.

A product has a 1:1 buyer to owner ratio and resale value.

Like.. you know.. those downloads you paid for.

Try selling them to somebody.

Buy a record. 33 1/3. Scratch it. That's a product and you have to pay for a new one.

YMOV

[Bob Olhsson]

That sounds like a lot of publicly traded companies to me...It has become common practice outside the personal computer industry but I don't remember hearing much about it before MicroSoft, etc.

Prior to that, most business was about making and selling a product as oppose to pumping up the perceived value of a business into a house of cards for the benefit of mutual fund managers.

[weedywet]

Yes.
And people used to buy stock in a company because they believed the COMPANY woudl be successful, not just because they were 'betting' the stock would go up irrespective of the company's bottom line. Like roulette.

[leester]

While it's not in the thread title this way, there's little likelihood that you'll convince anyone that what they're doing makes them a thief.

To me, the question isn't "How do I call them a thief and make them change their ways..." Even if they do eventually see it that way, they're not likely to admit it right there on the spot.

It makes more sense to put it into a positive light, and allow the guilt to set in naturally. Convince people that paying for music is RIGHT. Semantics, but those little things make a world of difference in selling anything.

Swafford hit it the right way, and though I doubt it changed anything over night, the seed is planted. Iffin's those around him respect him and his decisions, eventually they'll want to be "cool like Swafford" and join the "elite" that actually PAY for music.

Unfortunately, many people don't have individuals within their own peer group that can plant these seeds. There seems to be at least one generation's worth that first experienced music and found all their favorites on IRC/FTP/Napster1. This group is relatively small compared to the general public, but they're a major portion of the group that new music is marketed to, and they're used to getting it 'free' - regardless of how it happens.

I don't necessarily have a problem sharing a SONG with someone who I think will enjoy an otherwise unknown band, particularly when a) it's the ONLY way they'll ever get to hear it, and b) it might spark some new interest and support in a band that doesn't have the promotion machine behind it.

Of course if someone is physically HERE, then it's a lot easier to just play it for 'em and email a link to where they can get their own copy. I paid for mine, ripped it to my HD uncompressed, and put everything back in it's place for safe-keeping. And NO, I don't want to order a new one if you screw mine up.

So rather than trying to convince someone they're wrong, show 'em what's right and lead by example.

While it's not always feasible, watch the red faces in a situation like Swafford's when he buys everyone else THEIR copies as opposed to giving them his own. Next time someone asks you for a song or an album, pop over to iTunes or Amazon or whatever and order them a CD with your own money. If they're too antsy to wait, give 'em your copy AFTER you've confirmed the order and tell them you'll "do without" until it comes in.

"He's weird..." will be the knee-jerk response, but you will have planted a fertile seed.

Just my two cents.
lees

[Wireline]

Aloha from West Texas...

It seems that music copying is merely an extension of our society...how many times have we heard (or said) that something is illegal 'only if you get caught.'

I don't think its an industry issue - its much deeper than that, and more of a societal issue...and I don't know of anyway to legitslate morality...

[lebouche]

Aloha from West Texas...

It seems that music copying is merely an extension of our society...how many times have we heard (or said) that something is illegal 'only if you get caught.'

I don't think its an industry issue - its much deeper than that, and more of a societal issue...and I don't know of anyway to legitslate morality...

This is my whole point. I remember as a child my mother catching a lodger stealing from her. He was the only person in the house so we confronted him. He lifted his matress and handed over the cash. My mother asked him 'why would you do that?' 'evreybody does it' was the reply and that's what people keep telling me.

[Wireline]

I prefer re-stating the obvious...less confrontational that way...

I don't think music theft, piracy, movie theft, any of it will go away until there is a technological answer...one that will do the trick better than the Sony attempt bypassed by a kid with a Sharpie...

Record companies going after 13 yr olds downloading a PussyCat Dolls track isn't gonna do it either...the problems are further piled on by whatever enforcement agency having to prove the 'evidence' is not something bought at a secondhand music shop, or downloaded from a site that only posts used CDs...

Electroshock doesn't work (I've tried it...its kinda nice after a while)...neither does chemical castration...

Wow...I really don't know the answer, and am not entirely sure of the question.

[Johnny]

I like Swafford's example too. I always make a point of showing those I can that I pay for downloads because I like the artists and want to give them money for their work. A tip, if you will.

I know it's not a tip, they deserve it, but we're turning an ocean liner around here...

[nobby]

In a way, I feel sorry for kids stealing more songs than they can listen to.

I remember going to the record store as a teenager and forking over half my week's pay, more than a CD adjusted for inflation as a newspaper delivery boy for an LP album that contained 7-10 songs.

The physical product was large, had weight, and pictures and information that you didn't need a microsope to read. I can still feel the anticipation of walking home through the snow and to my room to listen to it for the first time.

The only way you could listen to a large number of songs was to go to friends' houses and listen to their records, and they'd come over to your house and listen to yours. Or if you really trusted someone to be careful not to scratch them, you could lend and borrow.

Of course, there was a lot of good music for free on the radio back then also. But my point is that having to earn something makes you very choosey about what you buy and makes you appreciate it more IMO. We cherished our records.

[nobby]

I like Swafford's example too. I always make a point of showing those I can that I pay for downloads because I like the artists and want to give them money for their work. A tip, if you will.

I know it's not a tip, they deserve it, but we're turning an ocean liner around here...

The biggest problem with the tipping model is that people who go to P2Ps are anonymous.

If you go to a restaurant/ diner in the US and you don't tip the waitress, she'll remember you and you'll get the service you pay for next time. When I eat out, I tip 20% and, trust me, they remember me and I get great service.

The closest analogy is that going to a paid subscription service or itunes you don't have to weed through bad files and open your computer up to viruses, not to mention a possible RIAA suit, and, like them or not, they do have a deterrent effect on many people.

BTW, that's another strategy other than DRM to discourage theft. Put up a bunch of spoof files that redirect the person to purchase your song. Just don't put a bunch of really obnoxious stuff on them like Madonna did, or they'll hack your site & shut it down.

[bunnerabb]

They used to hire musically and culturally aware persons with a flamboyant and / or engaging air personality to seek new acts and new music and get it on their station first. Now there's no competition. There's a satellite beaming the same trash that was picked by focus groups to the same 300 stations.

These people were called disc jockeys

It didn't matter what SORT of music it was, only that it would find purchase with radio listeners.

And the station that played the most hits would have the most listeners and they'd wait for their song.

Can I get a witness?

Can I get an amen?

Can I get a ride home?

[Unfcknblvbl]

Can I get a witness?

Can I get an amen?

Can I get a ride home?

Yes.
Yes.
Yes...

.
.
.

[Cosmic Pig]

How to convince people copying music is wrong?

Well you can't. Lamenting the way of the world will just give you stress and not much else. The only difference between now and the good old days is the facade of honesty as its own reward is eroding.

The way to do it is from the audiophiles on down. Make quality sound becomes fashionable again. Have the standard become 24 bit 96 khz. Maybe 7.1 surround too. Get the fashionable folks to sneer at mp3s with disgust.

A start might be having Musicmatch jukebox and a few others remove the little "CD quality" next to the 128 kbs box.

Cos.

[nobby]

The way to do it is from the audiophiles on down. Make quality sound becomes fashionable again. Have the standard become 24 bit 96 khz. Maybe 7.1 surround too. Get the fashionable folks to sneer at mp3s with disgust.

And how in the fuck are you going to do that?

According to the History Channel, people used to listen to cheap portable record players, which produced horribly distorted midrange and no definition, and people loved it. On the same program, they showed people listening to Sony 6 transister radios. Even worse, narrower band of midrange, and people loved it. Put in the little mono earbud, and it was even worse... like a telephone and people... mind you, these people all had heard live music as a reference point.

The wildest wet dream of the big labels is to sell a new format that's better than CDs, but the typical listener is going in the opposite direction. Video is another story.

[bunnerabb]

The wildest wet dream of the big labels is to sell a new format that's better than CDs, but the typical listener is going in the opposite direction.
Ya know...

He's got a valid point.

When's the last time you heard ANYbody, outside of a few cats with serious home audio, offer any objections to the QUALITY of audio playback codecs or gear?

I mean, who doesn't use this forum.

[Cosmic Pig]

Naw... everybody likes to have a kickass stereo. They hear music as well as we do, they just don't know when they hear shit as well as we do.

There's lots of non-musicians/engineers who like to kick back and listen to good tunes on a good stereo. Part of the trouble is bass wars and subs that the home stereo industry has pawned off as great sound. Using bass they're trying to sell us crappy systems they can get cheap from China.

It would be easy to sell 24/96 dvds. We laugh at the extreme audiophiles around here but a lot of people take pride in their home stereos and would buy them. Then they brag about it to the Jones' and your off.

All ya gotta do is tell them 24/96 sounds better. Most people I know into music don't know anything about bit depth or sample rate. Educate them and many will be all over it.

The industry is just gun shy because nobody wanted CD's when they first came out. To jam CD's down everyone's throat they had stop buying back unsold records, because CD didn't sound as good as vinyl at the time. Still don't maybe. They bought back unsold CD's though.

The difference with 24/96 is its an easier sell because it's not a radical platform jump like vinyl to CD, and it actually does sound better.

Cos.

[lebouche]

Naw... everybody likes to have a kickass stereo. They hear music as well as we do, they just don't know when they hear shit as well as we do.

There's lots of non-musicians/engineers who like to kick back and listen to good tunes on a good stereo. Part of the trouble is bass wars and subs that the home stereo industry has pawned off as great sound. Using bass they're trying to sell us crappy systems they can get cheap from China.

It would be easy to sell 24/96 dvds. We laugh at the extreme audiophiles around here but a lot of people take pride in their home stereos and would buy them. Then they brag about it to the Jones' and your off.

All ya gotta do is tell them 24/96 sounds better. Most people I know into music don't know anything about bit depth or sample rate. Educate them and many will be all over it.

The industry is just gun shy because nobody wanted CD's when they first came out. To jam CD's down everyone's throat they had stop buying back unsold records, because CD didn't sound as good as vinyl at the time. Still don't maybe. They bought back unsold CD's though.

The difference with 24/96 is its an easier sell because it's not a radical platform jump like vinyl to CD, and it actually does sound better.

Cos.
Why the hell aren't labels selling 24 bit medium? The difference is very noticable and a format change would once again slow physical copying...i.e. not evreyone would have dithering capabilities to burn CD's at home etc.
It would also make a big deal out of the quality of music...bring some attention to the subject.

[gilligan204]

I prefer re-stating the obvious...less confrontational that way...

I don't think music theft, piracy, movie theft, any of it will go away until there is a technological answer...one that will do the trick better than the Sony attempt bypassed by a kid with a Sharpie...

Record companies going after 13 yr olds downloading a PussyCat Dolls track isn't gonna do it either...the problems are further piled on by whatever enforcement agency having to prove the 'evidence' is not something bought at a secondhand music shop, or downloaded from a site that only posts used CDs...

Electroshock doesn't work (I've tried it...its kinda nice after a while)...neither does chemical castration...

Wow...I really don't know the answer, and am not entirely sure of the question.

I think they need to release all mp3s at a really crappy bit rate like 96 kbps, and re do cds so there at 24/96

[lebouche]

I think they need to release all mp3s at a really crappy bit rate like 96 kbps, and re do cds so there at 24/96
I don't think CD's can be 24 bit. They can hold a 24bit data file but not audio. Redo ....as in rework/create? Perhaps a new hi-fidelity format would help.

[Bob Olhsson]

I think full dynamic range DVDs with 96x24 .wav or lossless files along with compressed lossy-coded files for cars and portables would make a spectacular release format.

We aren't really dependent at all on any "industry standard" like we used to be.

[lebouche]

I think full dynamic range DVDs with 96x24 .wav or lossless files along with compressed lossy-coded files for cars and portables would make a spectacular release format.

We aren't really dependent at all on any "industry standard" like we used to be.

Yep that would be great.The more I think about it the less I think it's a miricle cure. I imagine as the net gets faster people would start copying/stealing 24bit files. Would still be great to have though...I'd love all my music in 24bit DVD.

[Bob Olhsson]

The answer to that is packaging that people want to treasure and show off. This is exactly how the industry first started moving people from buying singles to selling albums. (It ain't rocket science.)

Lots of kids grab thousands of MP3s off the net entirely so they can show off how many they have.

And by the way, the real wet dream of the majors is signing hundreds of awesome artists who they will be able to get exposed and who they can have a successful long term relationship with. Exposure is a huge problem. The internet is more like a yellow pages ad than great local venues and great radio.

[leester]

I don't think CD's can be 24 bit. They can hold a 24bit data file but not audio. Redo ....as in rework/create? Perhaps a new hi-fidelity format would help.

That stuff has been out and basically tanking for a while now.

Google SACD and DVD-A. Lil round disks with higher quality audio. It's not the delivery system. The ones that care about quality aren't the ones trading lofi mp3's.

Personally, I'm not even interested in re-tooling for DVD-A or SACD. (DRM'd) Sell me a data disk with 24/96 on it, and I'll buy it - provided I can mp3 / wav CD / ringtone it myself FOR myself.

lees

[bunnerabb]

Ringtones: Be vain, ridiculous and have a certain je ne se qua.

:very happy:

[slabrock]

To the original question:

By explaining in length and great detail how the music industry works and how is everybody's work financed. Repeat every time you see a burned CD, an iPod, or somebody downloading songs for free. Every time.

Either it sinks, or at least they start to give a negative association to stolen music, when they can't get rid of a vision of you preaching everytime they turn on their stolen music.

That's how i do it. And i like to think it works to some degree.

As far as i see, the people hardest to turn on the straight & narrow are the other "content producers", people who are themselves getting ripped off by piracy but who don't feel it. Especially computer programmers. It's very hard to start preaching against piracy at the Micr*soft friday wine-down.
:Sad: :Sad: :Sad:

Peace,

Slabrock

[Wireline]

To the original question:

By explaining in length and great detail how the music industry works and how is everybody's work financed. Repeat every time you see a burned CD, an iPod, or somebody downloading songs for free. Every time.



I've actually tried this approach...and for every moment spent working/producing some sort of income, I spent hours trying to educate...one can get very broke in a very short time...

:Mad:

I've been called judgemental, part of the problem, elitist, and naive, all because I do not have any software not paid for or not freeware...It is a surreal twist, and a very telling tale of society's norms (or lack thereof)...

[Bob Olhsson]

Software and music piracy are not unfortunate accidents. The technology to prevent it has been there all along but never implemented.

Allowing piracy has been a calculated effort to sell personal computer hardware and to provide a huge advantage to the largest players in the software market by killing off small software developers and the prerecorded media industry.

[Spock]

Software and music piracy are not unfortunate accidents. The technology to prevent it has been there all along but never implemented.

Yes and no.

The concepts have been around for a long time.

The shortcomings with all the things that have been tried so far have also been know for a long time. Two things prevented better things from being used. One was the cost to get get things working, and working correctly. Many times the industries wanted to do something quick and cheap. The people in the know would tell try to tell them of the problems. Just look at the copy protection of DVDs. Bad, idea, very bad, and then when it got cracked the companies that pushed a bad standard were pissed off at the crakcers, rather than themselves.

The second issue was strong encryption and related things like secure hashes. Up until the mid to late 90s, it was considered arms, and still is by some countries. The US Goverenment relaxed things a bit and as long as you didn't export anything that used over 40 bit keys you wre not an arms dealer. Companies had two versions of some programs to to comply with export laws. At the same time if you took a laptop out of the US with the long key versions of programs you needed to fill out paper work before you got on a plane.

This was at a time when the US goverenment approved standard was 56bit DES, which had been shown to be weak with the speed of processors at that time.

Now days you would be stupid to use anything less than 3DES, and most things are using 1024 to 2048bit keys. At least now the laws have changed and I'm no longer a terrorist for wanting to keep my private data private.

[bbkong]

How to convince people copying music is wrong?

This is a matter of perspective.

The 96% of people who live outside of this community have priorities that are oriented around food, shelter and family.

Music, like other forms of entertainment, is a luxury.

You turn on your $200 tv and the programs are free. You turn on the radio in your car and the music is free. This is something ingrained our society, so there shouldn't be any surprise about people scarfing some music on the internet for free too. Damn those assholes who figured out how to digitize sound. No, let's go back and blame the fucker who put the first radio in a car.

Quality? Forget it. Only we care about things like that. Nobody else gives a shit because the public doesn't notice or hear the difference.

If you look at the trends, subscription services are moving in and up. XM. Tivo. Pay-per-View. The radio frequencies are being taken over by telephonics and communications. The battle grounds are shifting under our feet. Entertainment is going to be a subscription item in another 20 years.

It cracks me up watching the RIAA going after kids downloading mp3's because I have to wonder when they're gonna come after me for dubbing Marx Bros movies onto VHS. WTF?

I think the brutal truth is that artists are going to be forced to depend on performances to earn income rather than facsimiles (records), and I think that is happening before our eyes now.

It's kinda come full circle again, no?

[Bob Olhsson]

It has indeed come full circle but only because we have allowed ourselves to get lost in self indulgence and failed to treat an album as the luxury product that it has always been.

We are all paying dearly for widespread disrespect for the album audience.

[nobby]

As someone who had little money as a kid, I can tell you that a live concert is a luxury item. You can get a Rolling Stones album for $15 and listen to it every day.

The cheap tickets OTOH are $250, and that's for 1 evening.

And what do you suppose will happen/ is happening to ticket prices when artists/companies can't make any money on recorded music? That's right. The only direction is up.

The "you're going to get raped, so you may as well relax and enjoy it" argument is most often made by those without a horse in this race. The rest of the time it is being made by those that don't realize that they do.

[eagan]

You know, we really need to consolidate all these threads going on basically the same stuff.

Anyway...

Good point from Nobby. Great point from Nobby, I should say.

All the dickheads who pull out the bullshit justification #14 "besides, everybody knows (who "knows"?) musicians really only make money playing live shows anyway" never give a thought to what it would mean if that really is the only way to make money, and this would also have to completely underwrite all total money losing writeoff propositions of ever recording again to give people their "free music".


JLE

[Bob Olhsson]

The next generation of young artists are paying dearly because there isn't a whole lot of "angel money" or private investment available like there used to be.

[Bryson]

Her friend came over for dinner the other night and asked if I had any music I could bluetooth to her phone.

Ask if you may fuck her while she's sleeping.

[Bryson]

As someone who had little money as a kid, I can tell you that a live concert is a luxury item. You can get a Rolling Stones album for $15 and listen to it every day.

The cheap tickets OTOH are $250, and that's for 1 evening.


I saw Hendrix, Doors, Santana, Airplane, Led Zep/Tull, etc. for around $3.50 ('68-'70), and an album wasn't much less then. Big ratio difference with now.
The concert posters were free back then too. My bedroom wall (at 9 yrs old) would be worth thousands now!

[Goes211]

Ringtones: Be vain, ridiculous and have a certain je ne se qua.

:very happy:

Not nitpicking or hijacking this very interesting thread, just a slight correction since the expression is commonly used in the US and other english-speaking countries :

It should be "je ne sais quoi", which is french for "I don't know what". It's not a latin expression at all. :Coolio:

Other french expressions I've seen slaughtered on the altar of chic over the years HERE (http://french.about.com/library/bl-frenchinenglish-list.htm)

Sorry for the interruption. I shall retire to my boudoir for a little tête-à-tête with myself. The ménage à trois has a little feeling of déjà vu. Voilà. :lol:

[Bryson]

It should be "je ne sais quoi", which is french for "I don't know what".
That's still reading it a bit literal (web translator) though.

It always seemed to me to mean more like; "that certain elusive something that I can't quite explain".

But the only French I claim to know is kissing............it's with the tongue, right?

[Goes211]

It always seemed to me to mean more like; "that certain elusive something that I can't quite explain".


That is the exact meaning.
:Coolio:


But the only French I claim to know is kissing............it's with the tongue, right?

...while holding a french baguette and wearing a bérêt.
:lol:

[Tim Halligan]

...while holding a french baguette...


Is there any other kind?

Methinks you have inadvertantly committed tautology. :D


Cheers,
Tim...the reluctant script doctor...

[nobby]

I shall retire to my boudoir for a little tête-à-tête with myself.

If you're gonna choke yer chicken, that's one thing... ya don't have to tell the whole world about it, though! :lol: