taping live show...need some advice

[wkrienke]

well...i have been hired to tape a live show of a christian praise/rock band in dallas this december. with this genre, there is a lot of crowd participation as song lyrics are projected on screens and everyone is singing along. i need to get the crowd voices without the PA coming through as much as possible. i know im going to get some in there, but i just want it to work as best as possible. i was thinking of renting a couple shotgun mics and placing at the stage facing towards the crowd. i would still use different room mics to pic up the ambience as well. what do you guys think? mic suggestions? any other advice?

[otek]

I would recommend using a pair of regular cardioid condensers flown above the stage, pointing outwards.

If they are kept behind the PA, there won't be any direct FOH sound hitting them from there. Some of that FOH diffuse reflectivity will also help giving it live feel, i.e. hearing the sound bouncing on the back of the room.

There are several people here who work with live recording extensively, and even in the style you're talking about.



Paging Dr. Bob and Clicktrack. :D

[wkrienke]

makes sense...would you use more room mics than these in the middle of the room (or back or front) or do you think i would run in to too many phase issues? its going to be a pretty big show....like 5000 people.

one more thing...when you mix a live record, do you normally cut the lows and hi's out of the room mics? so like hi pass @600-650 range and lo pass @5-6k and then compress? does this sound right?

[Comte de St Germain]

I'll be honest, this is one of the tricky aspects of live recording.

Otek has step one, I've had success with omnis at such events too BUT mosy of the time I'm using shotguns from the stage coupled with some cardoids like Otek outlined.

Whatever you do see if you can do a run through with a crowd first.

[bunnerabb]

Don't leave out straight pre outs from the desk or at least a two track out if you can.

[wkrienke]

im going to have a split of all the stage mics and multitrack it into an HD24. im prob going to add a couple mics on the guitar cabs as well. so...im just trying to get the room to sound good first then i can add in the other tracks. just kinda difficult to iso the crowd. ill prob throw some cardioids condeners and some shotguns up above the stage and a couple 414's in the crowd to pickup the ambience. just to have everything covered. better safe than sorry since i wont be able to track it again.

what do u guys think about vocal mics on stage. the last show i taped we used a beta 87 and it sounded good but i picked up a lot of the cymbals and it really affected to sound a lot. take too much hi's out and the vocals sounded crappy...not enough and the cymbals were just peircing. im thinking maybe a beta 58...tighter pattern to pickup less stuff than the condenser. is it unethical to retrack vocals after the show? ive noticed little things in certain live songs i reference that make me think a lot of stuff is retracked. like acoustic for instance...i can hear the pick. this can only be done by micing the acst and im certain that this wasnt done on stage. any ideas?

[clicktrack]

You've hit a tonne of points that need discussion but first, I'll comment on your initial question.

Crowd micing is an inexact science IMHO...its one of the best scenarios to try a few things simultaneously (if you have the track count).

Using shotguns works well, but I prefer getting the up off of the lip of the stage. A high shotgun on either side of the stage pointed inwards to the crowd gets you past the first row that always has the loud lady who wants to sing over the crowd.

I like adding another pair of cardioids mid-room. Although you will get some FOH wash, the high-frequency applause content does cut through...mix this to taste with the shotguns can give you a nice crowd content.

I have more to add on some of the other issues you raised, but I'm heading off to the final day of a festival...I hope to get some online access later on...

Cheers!

[wkrienke]

any more ideas? clicktrack?

[clicktrack]

I'm glad you poked me...I apologize, I've been meaning to get back to you on this one.

You mentioned as well mic'ing the guitar cab. That brought to mind some of what I've seen done on jobs where you just don't know all the factors involved...i.e. the room, the players, etc. This method gives you the most flexibility when it comes to mix time. After all, even your best efforts may not sound like what you expect after the fact. Having the options at hand allow you to change how you approach it at mix time without having to go through overdubs etc.

Kick In
Kick Out
Snare
Snare Bot
H.H.
T1
T2,
Floor
OH L
OH R
Bass DI
Bass Mic
Guitar 1 DI
Guitar 1 Mic
Guitar 2 DI
Guitar 2 Mic
Keys 1 L
Keys 1 R
Keys 2 L
Keys 2 R
Vox 1
Vox 2
Vox 3
...

Of course, the big cost of this, as you can see, is track count. Your inputs essentially double. If you can't afford that, then take away some of the "nice to haves:" Go with one kick, snare mic. Use the drum overheads to capture the toms. I would, however, recommend taking bass and guitar feeds via the mic'd cabinet as well as the DI. The reason being is two fold: If the player is good and knows how to control their sound, then you can use the mic'd cab to get that person's "sound". If they suck, then you can take the DI and edit it to your hearts content without worrying about consistancy with the bleed.

And then we come back to the topic of bleed...if you can, use a drum shield on the kit. Many drummers bitch and whine about using it, but if they have a monitor, then there's no reason not to. (Many find after the fact that they can control their sound a bit better after playing with one for a bit).

If you don't have access to a drum shield, then hopefully you can position the drums off centre in a way that will limit the amount of drum bleed in the vox mics in front of the kit. Again, thats not always possible, but if you're in good with the band, they may be able to accomodate this.

You WILL have bleed. Its just a matter of taming the beast. Keep all mics close to their intended source, which will give you some room later on in terms of helping a signal get some definition above the bleed.

Back to the crowd micing. If you can, have the band leader come out about 20 minutes early and "warm up" the crowd. This will give you an opportunity to monitor your crowd sounds and do small tweaks of your micing position. It also gets them in the mood to paaaarrrtaaaay and be apart of the recording.

Hope you can follow my stream-of-consciousness post... :)

[wkrienke]

so here is my setup...

2 Alesis HD24s
4 Digimax LTs
48 ch splitter


Kick In - Senn e901
Kick Out - Beta 52
Snare Top - Beta 57
Snare Btm - 421
Rack Tom - 421
Floor Tom - 421
Hat - NT5
OH L - AvensonAudio STO-2
OH R - AvensonAudio STO-2
Bass DI - Avalon U5
Bass Mic - Beta 52
Gtr 1 DI - Radial
Gtr 1 Mic - 57
Gtr 1 Mic - 414
Gtr 2 DI - Radial
Gtr 2 Mic - 57
Gtr 2 Mic - 414
Acst DI - LR Baggs Para Acoustic
Loop L - Radial DI
Loop R - Radial DI
Click - Radial DI
Vox 1 - Beta 87
Vox 2 - 58
Vox 3 - 58
Room L 1 - 4041
Room R 1 - 4041
Room L 2 - AT835B
Room R 2 - AT835B
Room L 3 - NT2a
Room R 3 - NT2a

Gonna fly the 4041's and the Shotguns Above the PA at the front of the stage. The Shotguns angled in a lil more like Clicktrack said...the NT2's are gonna be a little bit in front of FOH.

I know this is a huge track count, but better safe than sorry.

Im just still wondering if i should go w/ a dynamic for the lead vox so as to cut down stage bleed as much as possible?

tell me what you guys think of all this.....

[pounce]

i like the mic choices, and the live vox are the only three i'd think about based on what kind of voices these singers have. the other choices will serve you well, and with all these choices and backup, you'll have as easy of a time mixing as you possibly could. looks like you are doing this right.

[clicktrack]

Lol...

Taking a page from the Clicktrack school of "go big or go home", huh?

I agree with Pounce...some pretty good choices are there and you've left yourself lots of room for choices at mix time. There definitely is an art to doing it with less tracks, but if you have the track space, why not use 'em? Lol...

Now with all of this, you have one more hurdle to get over...load in. You'll find that this type of micing can take time once you get into the room. If the room is available to you all day, I suggest you get in as early as you can, and do all your flying etc when no one is around. This gets it done and out of the way.

In a small area near the back of the stage, have all your mic stands built and roughly positioned. Don't put your mics on the stands until instruments are in place and you're ready to put the mics in position...musicians can be a clumsy lot and you'd be surprised at how quickly mics can go falling when musos are setting up.

Also, get your long snake and cabling runs done at the early time as well.

THe thought behind this is that the more you do in your "alone time" is more that you don't have to do when the musos start filling in. When you're alone, you tend to be relaxed and go about things in a logical manner. You'll find that once musicians are in the room, you have to start directing traffic, which will not only take your focus away from whatever job you are doing (which can lead to errors happening) it will also slow down the easiest job to a crawl. Then you find that you get into a "rush mode" and then progress goes even farther down the tubes.


Good luck!

[wkrienke]

how do you guys feel about the digimax's pres? any good? im just limited on what i can rent. the place im renting from here in austin its super cheap...its like 260 for all the stuff i mentioned earlier for the weekend. my only other real option is an lx7ii...im thinking the digimaxs will be better but ive taped with a soundcraft live like this once before and it was ok...just wondering what you guys think

[Tim Halligan]

how do you guys feel about the digimax's pres? any good?...

<snippity>

...just wondering what you guys think

I get that you want to do the best job you can, with the best gear that you can lay your hands on...


but...


...you are recording an amateur band in front of a live audience who are active participants, in a room that isn't a concert hall, or a recording studio, or any other kind of "designed for music" space...


...so, really, when it all boils down to it...


...all you need is a preamp that will take a signal from mic level to line level without completely destroying the source material in the process.

Plus, you'll be able to use your crowd mics to cover a multitude of sins should you run into trouble. :D

I guarantee you...nobody will say to you once the thing is mixed that you "should've used Neve/API/Whateverthehellisflavourofthemonth pre's on the guitars" or any other instrument.

Hope it goes well for you.

Cheers,
Tim

[Dr. Bob]

Sorry... missed the thread up to this point.

Been a bit preoccupied...

Your rig's pretty much the same as mine... and an all to familiar situation... So, I hope I can give a little bit of insight.

Your track count's rather modest actually... you don't have a piano, B3 and two stereo keyboards to add to the mix.

I'm gonna' save you one track right off the bat... loose the hat mic. I have yet to ever use it. Your snare mic and OH's are gonna give you more than enough... unless the drummer is an absolute wimp.

But now I'm gonna add two tracks to your count... a SPARE hardwired mic dialed in for the lead vox, but can be picked up by anyone. If it can go south and you're not prepared to deal with it... it WILL happen.

Also, there will no doubt be some sort of announcer/emcee. Don't let them use the main vox mic. Set up a hardwire, 57's fine, with a LONG mic cable. It's pretty much a throw away track, but you've got the count and it don't cost anything. Let the emcee walk on/off with the mic.

Twice, the emcee has had some really good dialogue. But because it was WAY too loud and distorted, it was unusable. I don't risk screwing up the lead vox channel by adjusting the gain. That was a disappointment to the groups. I learned my lesson.

Your idea about the room mic's seem dead on. One way I check for placement is to take a ladder and tape measurer with me. I'd place the rear ambient mic's 38% of the distance from the rear wall and the front one's 38% from the front wall. Run the ladder up and listen to some impulses with the room empty. If you can, put the mic's at least 38% of the distance high... or 12'... whichever is greater. Then during sound check... walkie talkie/com/cell/etc... with an assistant in the room, and have them move the mics for optimal.

Hope there's something in here you can use.

[Tim Halligan]

I'd place the rear ambient mic's 38% of the distance from the rear wall and the front one's 38% from the front wall. Run the ladder up and listen to some impulses with the room empty. If you can, put the mic's at least 38% of the distance high... or 12'... whichever is greater.

Hey Bob,

What's the theory behind the 38% bizzo?


Enquiring minds...


Cheers,
Tim

[Dr. Bob]

Hey Bob,

What's the theory behind the 38% bizzo?


Enquiring minds...


Cheers,
Tim

Ahhh... sorry... this kinda' slipped by my radar screen.

Rule of 3rd's... but with a reality twist.

At 38%, you get out of most of the primary/fundamental nodes and most of the secondary harmonics. It ain't a perfect number, but it gets you plenty close to start with.

Does that clear that up a bit... or make it muddier? :D

[Tim Halligan]

Does that clear that up a bit... or make it muddier? :D

Yep...I get it now.


Cheers,
Tim